HECTO subs -- WHY?
Michael Motoda
Hi everyone,
I'm sure this topic has been beaten into the ground, but I just
recently saw some of the subs the group Hecto has done, specifically
Tenkuu no Escaflowne and VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I must say that
these series, while pretty decent in terms of recordings straight off
of Japanese broadcast, are by far THE worst subtitled videos I have
ever seen. I recently visited their website, and for this group to
charge $8 per tape (the add'l $5 PER TAPE (TDK EHG's are $3 or less)
supposedly covers UPS shipping and packaging) is an obvious attempt to
*CAPITALIZE* on what is by far slipshod work done with absolutely NO
heart whatsoever. As a serious fan and proponent of subtitling, these
subs were the greatest shock and insult to the artform which is anime.
I've taken Japanese at my university for the past 3 years, and am by
no means fluent, but when I see lyrics being completely translated
incorrectly (especially in the case of Escaflowne... hello? Do these
guys even understand Japanese?), I have to wonder why these people
even bother. Not to mention the poor timing, which does nothing to
'hide' the fact that the translation is more wrong that right. It
really hurts, ESPECIALLY when they decide to bastardize a series so
special as Escaflowne, one of my (and many fans) current favorites.
At first, I was very excited to hear that the entire series had been
subtitled, since there are very few groups who are doing this series,
but when I popped it in and saw what they had done with the beautiful
lyrics being sung by Sakamoto Maaya (I noticed a good 65%+ of the
lyric translations were flat-out WRONG, and that's only the stuff I
could understand), I knew that something was awry. To say that this
group is doing it 'for the benefit of anime fans' is rediculous.
Lamune didn't get much better. I noticed that only the most simple of
expressions were being translated correctly (even non-Japanese
speaking people can translate "Okaeri", "Doushite", etc.), and the
more wordy dialogue was glued together in a embarrassingly incoherent
and pathetically constructed 'rendition' of what was being said.
Grammar is another area where these subs are blindingly insulting.
I'm not an English major, but it's clear to see that whomever is err,
'editing' (and I do use that word lightly) these scripts doesn't even
have a general grasp of English (and if he/she does, then they aren't
using that skill to any extent with these subs), which is sad since it
appears that these videos are being done in the US.
These series' are very good (I like both of them), but for these, I'm
actually forced to watch them without reading the subtitles. I will
watch them in their entirety since I cannot afford to buy all the LDs
(and also because the person I traded with went through a lot of
trouble to tape these for me and recommend them), but it's quite
unfortunate that these series' have fallen into the hands of people
who are completely incapable of delivering even a decent fansub.
And with that, this is my promise -- I, along with several of my
friends, have already decided to form our own subtitling group, and we
will strive to bring you high quality fansubs which are timed well,
translated correctly, and done with a TRUE fan's heart. All we need
is the hardware, which is currently in the negotiation process. What
we are planning on doing (well, me at least) is subtitling some of the
better series' that HECTO has ruined (there's no other word to
encompass what they have done). Seeing subs like this was MORE than
enough inspiration to do subs the RIGHT way, so for THAT reason, I can
thank HECTO, for they have proven to me that subs can indeed be worse
than dubs -- and THAT is the saddest statement I have EVER had to make
as an anime fan.
If you're going to flame publicly, don't bother -- I don't read these
newsgroups, so I won't see it. If you're going to flame privately,
don't bother, I'll just throw it away. *BUT*, if you have
constructive comments, criticisms, questions, or anything else, please
feel free to email me and I'll be happy to talk to you about this.
Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
Michael Motoda
Matsuura-kun
eai...@ea.oac.uci.edu (Michael Motoda) wrote:
>
>Tenkuu no Escaflowne and VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I must say that
>these series, while pretty decent in terms of recordings straight off
>of Japanese broadcast, are by far THE worst subtitled videos I have
>ever seen.
These are early works. If you've seen any of the later works, you'll
note the vast improvement. In addition, you should do one more thing
than to vent your anger here: WRITE THEM. Yes, they take every criticism
into consideration and that is why they have evolved from those bad subs
you have seen. Try the later Rurouni Kenshin tapes and Slayers... the
early Rurouken are being fixed by Maboroshi Studios.
Fansubbers never claimed to be professional. They are a bunch of
hobbyists.
Hecto's price is another issue. And I agree with your views on that.
>These series' are very good (I like both of them), but for these, I'm
>actually forced to watch them without reading the subtitles. I will
>watch them in their entirety since I cannot afford to buy all the LDs
>(and also because the person I traded with went through a lot of
>trouble to tape these for me and recommend them), but it's quite
>unfortunate that these series' have fallen into the hands of people
>who are completely incapable of delivering even a decent fansub.
Ahh... that's one attitude that shouldn't be. Fansubbers aren't a
service and isn't here for your convenience. They are doing it as a form
of fan-art. And they are definitely not here to provide you with cheap
anime or professional work, just because you can't afford the LD's or
subbing equipment.
>And with that, this is my promise -- I, along with several of my
>friends, have already decided to form our own subtitling group, and we
>will strive to bring you high quality fansubs which are timed well,
>translated correctly, and done with a TRUE fan's heart.
Bravo, and I encourage you.
BTW, Escaflowne is currently being subbed by more than one group
(and many private groups as well since the LD's are coming out). That's
the difference. Hecto does the latest titles. Most fansubbers are
videophiles or really really need their LD-remastered SVHS master with
perfect timing and absolute perfect translations... everyone has their
own priorities.
BTW, the purpose of this post is just to counter this public
defamation of Hecto.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawrence Wan Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054 Anime Brunonia
Brown University
Providence, RI 02912 Maboroshii Kid
tel. (401) 863-4146 Homepage: http://128.148.191.22/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tenkuu no Escaflowne*Marmalade Boy*Rurouni Kenshin*Fushigi Yuugi
Shinseiki Evangelion*Video Girl Ai*Slam Dunk*Mobile Suit Gundam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet" -- E.D.
Robert, The Chaotic One, and The Dark Lord of Cupcakes
In article <5h7n03$s...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> writes:
> These are early works. If you've seen any of the later works, you'll
>note the vast improvement. In addition, you should do one more thing
>than to vent your anger here: WRITE THEM. Yes, they take every criticism
>into consideration and that is why they have evolved from those bad subs
>you have seen. Try the later Rurouni Kenshin tapes and Slayers... the
>early Rurouken are being fixed by Maboroshi Studios.
> Fansubbers never claimed to be professional. They are a bunch of
>hobbyists.
>
comments...there were 2...1 naga not narga...2 dragon slave not Dragu
Slave...if HECTO has somethingm you want...find it somewhere else...
"...Darkness beyond twilight...Crimson beyond blood that flows...Buried in the
flow of time...In thy great name I pledge myself to darkness...All the fools
who stand in our way shall be destroyed...By the power you and I possess------
-DRAGON SLAVE..." Lina Inverse
Robert El-Hazard OVA 2
The Chaotic One --Release Date--
and The Dark Lord of Cupcakes March 21 (In Japan)
Wade Missimer
Michael Motoda wrote:
> I'm sure this topic has been beaten into the ground, but I just
> recently saw some of the subs the group Hecto has done, specifically
> Tenkuu no Escaflowne and VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I must say that
> these series, while pretty decent in terms of recordings straight off
> of Japanese broadcast, are by far THE worst subtitled videos I have
> ever seen. I recently visited their website, and for this group to
> charge $8 per tape (the add'l $5 PER TAPE (TDK EHG's are $3 or less)
> supposedly covers UPS shipping and packaging) is an obvious attempt to
> *CAPITALIZE* on what is by far slipshod work done with absolutely NO
> heart whatsoever.
Did you ever ask HECTO about this? Answer: NO, obviously. You just
decided to publically flame them. You just assumed that you knew the
answers. Protect us from people like you who know it all.
For others who perhaps are willing to learn something rather than jump
to conclusions, let me tell you a little about HECTO (previously posted
on TAFMAL 2/1/97):
HECTO's heart is its husband and wife team of translators, Ray and
Minako. They do most of the HECTO translations, but they also have
friends who assist in exchange for a Japanese dinner or lunch at their
home. The friends seem more interested in the food than in the
fansubbing though ^_^! Minako is currently translating Rurouni Kenshin
and Saber Marionette J; Ray is working on Fist of the North Star and
Lamune & 40 Fire. HECTO has two editors, Dave and Chan, who help prepare
the final scripts. And they have a lot of help from kids in the
neighborhood, who assist with typing the scripts into the computer in
exchange for playtime on Ray's PlayStation and Nintendo 64 and access to
Ray's Japanese video game releases ^_^!
Both Ray and Minako were born in Japan, Minako is from Kyoto (western
Japan) and Ray from Tokyo (eastern Japan), and they came to the US to
attend college. Ray attended the Berklee College of Music in
Massachusettes and Minako transferred to the New York School of Interior
Design from a school in Paris. They both love anime and watch anime
together whenever there's time. Ray was introduced to fansubbing when a
group approached him to do anime translations for them. After his
connection with that group ended, he decided that he would create his
own fansubs and share his love of anime with other fans.
Ray purchased an Amiga to do his subtitling. New to subtitling and not
knowing what was available, he picked a package called Scala to create
the subtitles. This choice has proven to be less than optimal and Ray is
investigating other packages such as Jacosub. Ray prepared for six
months before announcing the opening of HECTO. He and Minako created the
initial set of releases (13 volumes) and mass duplicated the tapes in
preparation for their announcement. They use ten VCRs attached to a
distribution amplifier to create nine simultaneous copies. This allows
HECTO to stock copies prior to release so that they can provide fans
with amazingly quick turnaround on their orders. Most orders are shipped
within a day or so of receipt. And HECTO doesn't limit the number of
tapes a fan may order. Tapes are shipped via UPS within the US; HECTO
feels that UPS provides better services to HECTO and to it's fans.
HECTO gets the source material for its fansubs from SVHS tapes of
Japanese TV broadcasts or from SVHS copies of LDs in the case of movies
or OVAs. The tapes are shipped express mail to HECTO on a weekly basis
and both Ray and Minako, on average, translate 2 episodes a week. The
cost of express shipping is high, often over a hundred dollars a week,
but it's what allows HECTO to provide anime fans with the hottest and
most current Japanese anime releases. HECTO released the final episode
of Escaflowne within a month of it's broadcast in Japan.
HECTO has been open for five months now and has produced over *36*
volumes of anime! This period was one of learning as HECTO started with
very little knowledge of fansubbing or subtitling. Polite suggestions
and assistance were welcomed and resulted in improvements in HECTO's
fansubs. As the result of fan input, larger fonts are now used; the
fonts have been shifted up on the screen to avoid clipping on some TVs;
romanji song translations have been added to the OP and ED themes;
timing of the subtitles has improved; additional editors have been added
to improve the English translations; and commercials are now left in the
fansubs in their unsubbed form for fan enjoyment (and puzzlement!).
Other items: Foreign shipping rates have been modified to be more
consistent with costs; and the video tape brands have been upgraded to
provide better quality. Quite a bit really in just five months of
existence! HECTO has also remastered it's Escaflowne set with these
enhancements and is currently working on redoing the original volumes
of Rurouni Kenshin. And HECTO will continue to work on improving their
fansubs over the upcoming year: SVHS distribution is being investigated
and alternative subtitling packages are being evaluated to provide
better timing control.
But all of these unique services require HECTO to be a little more
expensive than the average fansubber (HECTO charges $8/tape for US
orders). Personally, I believe that their services are worth it. But
please be assured that it is not HECTO's goal to make money by running
their service. They do it because they love anime and want to share that
love with other fans. Given the long hours that HECTO spends translating
and distributing anime, it's really only the love of anime that can make
it worthwhile.
====
So keep in mind that HECTO is real people, generously giving of their
own time and monies so that you can watch subtitled anime. And they
deserve a little more consideration than the rash conclusions that you
came to. Yes, the first subs were rough, but they've taken suggestions
and citicism and improved. And they're revising Kenshin and rereleasing
it in April.
--
Wade Missimer
e-mail: w...@xnet.com
personal web page: http://www.xnet.com/~wfm/
CDS webmaster: http://www.mcs.com/~wfm/html/cko.html
Geoffrey Robert Tebbetts
Hmm. A good test of a fansub distributor's worth is usually by the
reaction of the anime club, so...
Our last meeting we ran VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I admit I like this
show, but the feedback just didn't seem to be favorable. Some people
cited that the subtitles just weren't smooth; they ran a few seconds late
sometimes.
Others cited the commercials; sure, it was fun watching Tony the Tiger
yell "Gureeto!" the first ten times, but sometimes a smooth edit of the
commercials are things viewers want. It sort of cuts off the continuity
of the showing (having to fast-forward at times).
Still others cited translation. I can't say this myself, since I know
basic Japanese, but people tell me the translation is off. Can't say if
it is or not, so this isn't as reinforcing as the other two.
All in all, I hope Hecto can improve on these ideas. I realize you can't
please all anime fans all the time, but I hope this is feedback from where
it should come from: the fans.
Geoff "Daisuke" Tebbetts * Lesson No. 6.
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu * The Spatula Splat.
Instructor, The Akane Tendo School-of-Hard-Knocks * Cook okonomiyaki
Magnificent Expert of the Interdimensional Mallet * during encounter.
Originator of the Blue Aura of Anger * Calmly take out very
Our Motto: "Ranma no baka!!" * big spatula and
Vice-President of Anime O-Tekku * crush opponent.
Home page: http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt0673a/ * Totemo oishii desu!
--
"o/~ I'm a ronin, baby, so why don't you fail me...."
Erik L. Schweitzer
Wade Missimer (w...@xnet.com) wrote:
: Michael Motoda wrote:
: Did you ever ask HECTO about this? Answer: NO, obviously. You just
: decided to publically flame them. You just assumed that you knew the
: answers. Protect us from people like you who know it all.
Probably no, but not obviously no. It's bad form to accuse someone of
assumimg something, when you are doing the same thing yourself.
(Although if I were wagering $5 bucks on, I would go with your assumption. :)
: For others who perhaps are willing to learn something rather than jump
: to conclusions, let me tell you a little about HECTO (previously posted
: on TAFMAL 2/1/97):
Thanks for the detailed info. (Maybe I should get back on tafmal so I don't
miss things like this.) It really irks me when people refuse to give credit
to hecto for what they have done. No one is forcing people to get these less
then perfect fansubs. If you must have your pristine, svhs copies from LD,
then wait two years until someone else finishes.
Bob help me, it's like getting a Sega genisis while waiting for the N64 to
come out, and then bitching because it isn't what you wanted!
(A poor anology, but I'm pressed for time.)
Matsuura-kun
rjc...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu (Robert, The Chaotic One, and The Dark Lord of
>In article <5h7n03$s...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> writes:
>> These are early works. If you've seen any of the later
>>works, you'll note the vast improvement. In addition, you should
>>do one more thing than to vent your anger here: WRITE THEM. Yes,
>>they take every criticism into consideration and that is why they
>>have evolved from those bad subs you have seen.
>>hobbyists.
>>
>Forget their Slayers, it sucked...horrible translation...and yes i
>sent them my comments...there were 2...1 naga not narga...2 dragon
>slave not Dragu Slave...if HECTO has somethingm you want...find
>it somewhere else...
I agree. They are far from perfect. But in comparison to their
earlier works (ie Escaflowne), they have improved. In the case of
Slayers, their translations aren't great but the grammar has gotten
easier to read and more importantly, is that they are working on easier
to read fonts.
Once again, fansubbers are not professionals and never claimed to
be. For you videophiles out there, you'll be disappointed by Hecto
because they won't cater to your perfect LD-remastered SVHS collection.
If you want top-notch quality, by from import houses. But for those who
are more concerned about the latest cool anime in Japan this year, they
are the place to go.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawrence Wan Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054 Anime Brunonia
Brown University
Providence, RI 02912 Maboroshi Kid Fansub Distributions
Hiroaki Fukuda
Psychology book says:
Intelligence is defined as the global capacity of the individual to act
purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with his
environment.
Hiro
Michael Motoda wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm sure this topic has been beaten into the ground, but I just
> recently saw some of the subs the group Hecto has done, specifically
> Tenkuu no Escaflowne and VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I must say that
> these series, while pretty decent in terms of recordings straight off
> of Japanese broadcast, are by far THE worst subtitled videos I have
> ever seen. I recently visited their website, and for this group to
> charge $8 per tape (the add'l $5 PER TAPE (TDK EHG's are $3 or less)
> supposedly covers UPS shipping and packaging) is an obvious attempt to
> *CAPITALIZE* on what is by far slipshod work done with absolutely NO
> These series' are very good (I like both of them), but for these, I'm
> actually forced to watch them without reading the subtitles. I will
> watch them in their entirety since I cannot afford to buy all the LDs
> (and also because the person I traded with went through a lot of
> trouble to tape these for me and recommend them), but it's quite
> unfortunate that these series' have fallen into the hands of people
> who are completely incapable of delivering even a decent fansub.
>
> And with that, this is my promise -- I, along with several of my
> friends, have already decided to form our own subtitling group, and we
> will strive to bring you high quality fansubs which are timed well,
Dave
Robert, The Chaotic One, and The Dark Lord of Cupcakes wrote:
> Forget their Slayers, it sucked...horrible translation...and yes i sent them my
> comments...there were 2...1 naga not narga...2 dragon slave not Dragu
> Slave...if HECTO has somethingm you want...find it somewhere else...
> he Dark Lord of Cupcakes March 21 (In Japan)
Actually, Romanji is pretty much fair game for interpretation. If
you're basing your opinions on the Software Sculptures stuff, they too
were incorrect in some stuff. FYI, on our Slayers Next subs, it's Dragu
Slave, not Dragon Slave.
--
Dave Pyun
email at: dav...@concentric.net
Saiya-jin Productions. Check out our web site at:
WWW: http://soyokaze.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~gohan
Matsuura-kun
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu (Geoffrey Robert Tebbetts) wrote:
>Hmm. A good test of a fansub distributor's worth is usually by the
>reaction of the anime club, so...
>
>Our last meeting we ran VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I admit I like this
>show, but the feedback just didn't seem to be favorable.
>
>it should come from: the fans.
Our club showed Escaflowne in its entirety from November to
February. It is the biggest success (same crowd and cheers as Laputa) in
our club thus far. And Escaflowne is one of the earliest works/worst
complaint series by Hecto. Beats me what the fans want. Those who want
their own pretty fansub collection acting like a collector of fansubs
probably doesn't like Hecto. But fans just out to have fun (especially
these college kids who don't intend on paying for anything except fo
pizza and beer) don't mind the translations.... something else to talk
about after the screenings, and everybody is intense not only for
Escaflowne, but also trying to read and understand the storyline before
the next subtitles hit... ^_^ ...it's all in good fun, here at Anime
Brunonia.
Isaac Kuo
In article <5hcrkd$p...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>gt0...@prism.gatech.edu (Geoffrey Robert Tebbetts) wrote:
>>Hmm. A good test of a fansub distributor's worth is usually by the
>>reaction of the anime club, so...
>>Our last meeting we ran VS Knight Lamune & 40 Fire. I admit I like this
>>show, but the feedback just didn't seem to be favorable.
>>I hope this is feedback from where
>>it should come from: the fans.
> Our club showed Escaflowne in its entirety from November to
>February. It is the biggest success (same crowd and cheers as Laputa) in
>our club thus far. And Escaflowne is one of the earliest works/worst
>complaint series by Hecto. Beats me what the fans want.
A lot of fans want subtitles even if they are wildly inaccurate.
I know from personal experience (beware of any subtitle of episode
23 of Yuu Yuu Hakusho).
They also want anime without buying originals and see nothing wrong
with buying them from bootleggers (people making a monetary profit
selling tapes).
Just because it's what "the fans" want doesn't make it right.
The Vision of Escaflowne is better enjoyed untranslated than with
HECTO's subs, since their mistranslations are at best mysterious
and at worst change the story (e.g. Van _never_ said "thanks" to
Hitomi, "Issac" should have been spelled "Isaac"--as in Isaac
Newton; similarly, "attraction" should have been "gravity" and
btw it's "Gravity of Fate" not "Fate of Attraction" whatever that
means, the Ispearl told Allen-tachi to "get out" <of their ship>
rather than the other way around, Hitomi never specifically said
that Practu was a fake, Hitomi's grandmother was always telling
Hitomi to trust the _one_ she loves, when Van is about to kill
Dilandau he says it's "for Fanelia" rather than his brother ...
oh it'd be too easy to go on and on and on).
--
_____ Isaac Kuo (k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu)
__|_>o<_|__
/___________\ "Watashi wa...watashi wa...
\=\>-----</=/ watashi wa motto kirei!" - Hotohori
Matsuura-kun
k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote:
>
>Just because it's what "the fans" want doesn't make it right.
Oh boy. Someone eager to head in this direction yet again. You're
lucky I'll be off on a trip after this. Anyway, this post was about the
subtitling, not about this old flamebait issue yet again.
>The Vision of Escaflowne is better enjoyed untranslated than with
>HECTO's subs, since their mistranslations are at best mysterious
>and at worst change the story
True, the translations were not good at all. Did you send all these
comments to Hecto? They'll change it, you know? And I disagree about no
subtitles. Ever watch the Mystic Valley episodes? Try guessing that
without subtitles. Usually people like me used to bad subtitles and
translations have gotten used to taking it with a grain of salt and
keeping an open mind for interpreting the artists' views for ourselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawrence Wan Brown Japanese Cultural Association Anime Director
PO Box 3054 Anime Brunonia
Brown University
Providence, RI 02912 Maboroshi Kid Fansub Distributions
tel. (401) 863-4146 Homepage: http://128.148.191.22/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Marmalade Boy*Fushigi Yuugi*Evangelion*Video Girl Ai*Sazan 3x3 Eyes
Rurouni Kenshin*Escaflowne*Saber Marionnette J*Sharmanic Princess
Seth Leger
Isaac Kuo wrote:
>
> Just because it's what "the fans" want doesn't make it right.
>
> HECTO's subs, since their mistranslations are at best mysterious
> Hitomi, "Issac" should have been spelled "Isaac"--as in Isaac
> Newton; similarly, "attraction" should have been "gravity" and
> btw it's "Gravity of Fate" not "Fate of Attraction" whatever that
> means, the Ispearl told Allen-tachi to "get out" <of their ship>
> rather than the other way around, Hitomi never specifically said
> that Practu was a fake, Hitomi's grandmother was always telling
> Hitomi to trust the _one_ she loves, when Van is about to kill
> Dilandau he says it's "for Fanelia" rather than his brother ...
> oh it'd be too easy to go on and on and on).
> --
> _____ Isaac Kuo (k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu)
True the Hecto subs are a bit premature... they do give you a slight
understanding of the plot. My personal favorite translation is the "FATE
VIBRATOR". Man o man, you can come up with something better than that.
And those song lyrics... ugh.
--
Seth Leger
sol...@eos.ncsu.edu
http://seth.rh.ncsu.edu/
Isaac Kuo
In article <5hgk9h$3...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote:
>>Just because it's what "the fans" want doesn't make it right.
> Oh boy. Someone eager to head in this direction yet again. You're
>lucky I'll be off on a trip after this. Anyway, this post was about the
>subtitling, not about this old flamebait issue yet again.
Someone was saying that fansubbers are supposed to provide "what
the fans want". I was pointing out by examples that "what the
fans want" is _not_ a good guage of what should be done.
In particular, my first example was that "the fans" want subtitles
even if they are wildly inaccurate. As I said before, I know
this to be true because I purposefully made an inaccurate
subtitle--and I cringe every time someone with superficial
knowledge of Japanese is impressed by how accurate (they think)
it is.
>>The Vision of Escaflowne is better enjoyed untranslated than with
>>HECTO's subs, since their mistranslations are at best mysterious
>>and at worst change the story
> True, the translations were not good at all. Did you send all these
>comments to Hecto? They'll change it, you know?
What, and help out these guys who are making money off of illegal
sales of anime (at $8 per tape)? Why should I spend my time
helping out bootleggers?
Besides, others are working on Escaflowne translations (from
scratch, since there's nothing worth working from in the HECTO
subs).
My time is better spent translating/fansubbing more Elf o
Karumono-tachi.
It's easier and faster to start from scratch than to pick
out errors here and there.
>And I disagree about no subtitles. Ever watch the Mystic Valley
>episodes? Try guessing that without subtitles.
Your guess will be about as good as their translation, assuming
you don't know any Japanese.
An accurate synopses is worth more than an inaccurate translation.
>Usually people like me used to bad subtitles and
>translations have gotten used to taking it with a grain of salt and
>keeping an open mind for interpreting the artists' views for ourselves.
In order to do so, you pretty much have to ignore the bad
subtitles, then. After all, if you don't know any Japanese
how are you supposed to tell the accurate from the
inaccurate translation? That puts you back on square one.
--
_____ Isaac Kuo (k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu)
Erik Schultz
> True the Hecto subs are a bit premature... they do give you a slight
>understanding of the plot. My personal favorite translation is the "FATE
>VIBRATOR". Man o man, you can come up with something better than that.
>And those song lyrics... ugh.
Well, Hecto is re-doing their Ruroni Kenshin, and I'm pretty sure they're
re-doing B't-X. They'll probably fix up their Escaflowne too at some point.
Matsuura-kun
k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote:
>
>Someone was saying that fansubbers are supposed to provide "what
>the fans want". I was pointing out by examples that "what the
>fans want" is _not_ a good guage of what should be done.
Well... ofcourse Hecto is not just doing what the fans want. You
can't impress everybody. A good sign that Hecto is doing both is that
they're taking every critcism mailed to them constructively and the
results have shown. And they are chosing what to sub next based on their
own personal taste. Ofcourse it has to be like that. What they are
releasing are recent titles popular in Japan and I doubt many US fans
know about them.
>In particular, my first example was that "the fans" want subtitles
>even if they are wildly inaccurate.
Yes. It helps them atleast understand more than unsubbed. And
there is no obligation that you have to be perfect in order to be a
subtitler. The idea is to try. If everybody was perfect, then you won't
have any subbing/translating stories to tell.
>What, and help out these guys who are making money off of illegal
>sales of anime (at $8 per tape)? Why should I spend my time
>helping out bootleggers?
>
>Besides, others are working on Escaflowne translations (from
>scratch, since there's nothing worth working from in the HECTO
>subs).
So it's not OK for Hecto, and it's OK that others are subbing it off
LD for perfect subs... which after getting, the fans won't need to buy
from import houses again?
>It's easier and faster to start from scratch than to pick
>out errors here and there.
Not what lazy transcribers think...
>>And I disagree about no subtitles. Ever watch the Mystic Valley
>>episodes? Try guessing that without subtitles.
>
>Your guess will be about as good as their translation, assuming
>you don't know any Japanese.
Not true. The trick is to know that it is an inaccurate sub and
find the direction they're trying to head toward. I know enough Japanese
but there are certain keywords and vocabulary that will throw me off, and
that's when I go to the subtitling.
>An accurate synopses is worth more than an inaccurate translation.
But an inaccurate translation is better than unsubbed in scenes
where people just stand around and talk.
>In order to do so, you pretty much have to ignore the bad
>subtitles, then.
Well, most of us here don't ignore the bad subs... we have fun with
them. And that's the whole point to us here, rather than to be anal
about it.
>After all, if you don't know any Japanese
>how are you supposed to tell the accurate from the
>inaccurate translation? That puts you back on square one.
Fortunately for me, I do know enough Japanese to catch errors even
on Central's script... but translations are like that, you can never be
perfect because connotations and implications of what is said is
interpreted differently (with various imagery-linked words) to everyone.
Isaac Kuo
>>In particular, my first example was that "the fans" want subtitles
>>even if they are wildly inaccurate.
> Yes. It helps them atleast understand more than unsubbed.
No, I mean _wildly_ inaccurate. Something where the subtitles are
so different from what's actually said, that the story may even
be changed.
It helps them think they understand, but that's all.
>>What, and help out these guys who are making money off of illegal
>>sales of anime (at $8 per tape)? Why should I spend my time
>>helping out bootleggers?
>>Besides, others are working on Escaflowne translations (from
>>scratch, since there's nothing worth working from in the HECTO
>>subs).
> So it's not OK for Hecto, and it's OK that others are subbing it off
>LD for perfect subs... which after getting, the fans won't need to buy
>from import houses again?
What are you talking about? I'm just saying that I won't help out
bootleggers like HECTO and that I'd be wasting effort translating
Escaflowne myself since others are doing it.
Where did I say anything was "OK"?
I don't support bootleggers, which is the only morally/ethically
correct position on that matter.
I don't support "mass distribution" of "free" anime either, but
this position is more debateable and irrelevant to this
particular instance.
>>It's easier and faster to start from scratch than to pick
>>out errors here and there.
> Not what lazy transcribers think...
Umm...hello?
"Lazy transcribers" don't pick out errors here and there.
Please try and rebut what's actually written.
>>>And I disagree about no subtitles. Ever watch the Mystic Valley
>>>episodes? Try guessing that without subtitles.
>>Your guess will be about as good as their translation, assuming
>>you don't know any Japanese.
> Not true. The trick is to know that it is an inaccurate sub and
>find the direction they're trying to head toward. I know enough Japanese
>but there are certain keywords and vocabulary that will throw me off, and
>that's when I go to the subtitling.
Please try and rebut what's actually written. This paragraph
doesn't address whether or not the guess of someone with no
knowledge of Japanese would be as good as an inaccurate
translation. All it says is that you read inaccurate subtitles.
If there is a connection between the two, it is too subtle for me.
>>An accurate synopses is worth more than an inaccurate translation.
> But an inaccurate translation is better than unsubbed in scenes
>where people just stand around and talk.
Why is it better to have the wrong idea of what's being said than
little/no idea?
> Well, most of us here don't ignore the bad subs... we have fun with
>them. And that's the whole point to us here, rather than to be anal
>about it.
You can have fun with no subtitles, too. In fact, you can have
more fun since you can make up anything at all MST3K'ing and no
one will be the wiser (even the ones who know Japanese because
you're yelling out your spoof louder than the audio).
Of course, what _I_ do is I actually try to tell the others what's
being said. This is hard, because my knowledge of Japanese is
poor overall and because I can't listen and talk at the same
time--and my mind gets warped trying to think in Japanese and
English at the same time! Sure it's incomplete, but at least
what I do summarize is accurate.
> Fortunately for me, I do know enough Japanese to catch errors even
>on Central's script... but translations are like that, you can never be
>perfect because connotations and implications of what is said is
>interpreted differently (with various imagery-linked words) to everyone.
There's no such thing as a perfect translation, of course.
Things get lost in the translation, and there are several
different translation philosophies to deal with that.
However, that's a far cry from translations which are plainly
wrong.
Matsuura-kun
k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote:
>In article <5hnut5$j...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Matsuura-kun <Y...@brown.edu> wrote:
>
>>>In particular, my first example was that "the fans" want subtitles
>>>even if they are wildly inaccurate.
>
>> Yes. It helps them atleast understand more than unsubbed.
>
>No, I mean _wildly_ inaccurate.
And again referring to the previous point of the post, yes, fans
here at Anime Brunonia want it. Wildly inaccurate translations,
half-readible and all.
[Treading on the distributor/fansub issues deleted]
>>>It's easier and faster to start from scratch than to pick
>>>out errors here and there.
>
>> Not what lazy transcribers think...
>
>Umm...hello?
>"Lazy transcribers" don't pick out errors here and there.
>Please try and rebut what's actually written.
Rebut? Lazy transcribers have done so... not only picked out
errors, but taken the time to boast about it. Um...hello? Missed the FY
Incident thread?
>>>Your guess will be about as good as their translation, assuming
>>>you don't know any Japanese.
>
>> Not true. The trick is to know that it is an inaccurate sub and
>>find the direction they're trying to head toward.
>
>Please try and rebut what's actually written. This paragraph
>doesn't address whether or not the guess of someone with no
>knowledge of Japanese would be as good as an inaccurate
>translation. All it says is that you read inaccurate subtitles.
>If there is a connection between the two, it is too subtle for me.
Here's the subtle part... actually, you wrote it. It said "you".
And I answered. And as for those who don't know Japanese, please reread
the trick of finding the general direction and assume your own
interpretation. Many are fine knowing the general plot, rather than
wanting to be anal and understand everything about it.
>>>An accurate synopses is worth more than an inaccurate translation.
>
>> But an inaccurate translation is better than unsubbed in scenes
>>where people just stand around and talk.
>
>Why is it better to have the wrong idea of what's being said than
>little/no idea?
Wow, you really haven't interacted with newbies in a long time.
Here in our club, we have lots of newbies... no surprise since we're out
in RI. Our club is extremely welcoming of newbies, in fact, and doesn't
play the elitist arrogant game most in fandom seem to play. Here, people
like to have _some_ idea bordering the truth than no idea. And yes, not
every single translation in Hecto's Escaflowne is absolutely in the wrong
direction. You are too harsh and may be too literal with your
translations.
>You can have fun with no subtitles, too. In fact, you can have
>more fun since you can make up anything at all
Well, bad translations atleast provide some direction. Unsubbed
with no clue gives you a whole space of unknown.
>Of course, what _I_ do is I actually try to tell the others what's
>being said.
And we have a fair share of Japanese and Japanese class students
doing that with their friends as well... a good thing for the couples.
>There's no such thing as a perfect translation, of course.
>Things get lost in the translation, and there are several
>different translation philosophies to deal with that.
Oh... never thought I'd agree with something you say.
>However, that's a far cry from translations which are plainly
>wrong.
Again, it is too harsh to paste that phrase on every single line of
Esca done by Hecto. Look again with a Japanese. You'll find things
that are right.