What's wrong with Trish Ledoux?
John Hokanson Jr.
Okay, I hope this doesn't rub people the wrong way, since the topic probably
has an aura of controversy. I'd really like to know this though, and I'm
trying to ask a question without making overt accusations that could be
deemed sladerous, or look like I'm taking sides (which I can't do, since I
know very little about the woman).
I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
negative vibes from some people in anime fandom? Normally, I wouldn't probably
care, but I'm starting to see this increasingly more and more. In fact, I'm
seeing it so much that in my estimation shes becoming another pariah of the
industry and anime fandom in general. A title, the likes of which, is held by
(among others) Carl Macek and Stuart Levy.
My question is really quite simple: Why?
Is it because of the liberties she takes in script writing?
Is it because of her associating with Viz. A company with a questionable rep
with the fans?
Is it because of the content in the articles she submits to Animerica?
Is it because of her stance against fansubs?
Is it all of the above?
Is it something else?
Am I reading to much into things, and do most people really care less (I just
got done listening to a guy making a wish to take over Viz so that he can fire
Trish)?
I hope I'm not reading into things, but I'm honestly seeing a large number of
jabs against her.
Again, I hope I don't get flamed for this, I'm not trying to start a fight,
but I do seek the wisdom of the fans that have been around longer than I
have.
The only real sample of her I've ever seen was an interview on the Sci-Fi
channel. She didn't seem too bad. Her commentary on anime was pretty dorky
(could have easily been by fault of the Sci-Fi channel), but that's no reason
to dislike her immensely.
Thanks.
----
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr. --- is...@usagi.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Ronald Spillman
with her, myself; She was (with Toshi Yoshida) one of the early guiding lights
of the Anime fan movement (she edited Animag, and both are translators
who have worked for both US Renditions and Animeigo (Otaku no Video).
What cost her in the eyes of some of the more hardcore element was
a number of things; The fact that she and Toshi works for Viz,
which some of the hardcore view as, like Streamline, evil for
attempting to bring anime to the masses instead of directing it to
the small clique of otaku (namely, subs only, literal translations
of native Japanese terms and gags that no-one except those
well versed in Japanese would understand). I don't know if you was here
in 1995, but there was a particularly ugly episode here (when it was just
rec.arts.anime) where some mental reject, pissed because of her liberal
translations of the Ranma theme songs, actually started posting death
threats directed at her personally; she eventually left the NG because of
it, and Toshi shortly afterwards (tho' he was still a member of the Ranma
ML until the middle of 1996). In other cases, a huge battle with a member
of Viz (forget her name, she's no longer with them) who had started e-mailing
some fansubbers threatening them with legal action if they didn't cease and
desist; this was around the time of JAILED (BTW, there is an article
on JAILED in the newest Manga Max). Since Trish is the most visible
of Viz, they used her a an easy target. She is also, much like the more
hardcore element, highly opinionated, which they don't like (ironically
enough...^_^). Also, the pace of the subs, which was a crawl at the
beginning, at least, was attributed to her (tho' I am sure the workload
probably was more the reason). There may be more, but that is the main
sticking points, and to be honest, whenever you used to see a battle on here
going on involving her, much, if not most of the posts, will be just a few
people venting their spleens. IMO, she has done much to popularize
Anime here, tho' I firmly believe that the early fans and otaku established
the needed foothold for it to actually get noticed, and the fansubbers
(Michael House of Animeigo and Gainax, was one (I got Midnight
Eye Goku 1 and 2 that he translated), and the Ranma Project, and
yes, even Arctic Animation helped establish it. But, to go on, we
have to go beyond the fan boundaries and embrace the public,
to educate whenever one of those ludicrous anti-anime articles
appears, until anime is accepted for what it is, a viable, vital
story-telling form. Or do we all want to go back to Nth Generation
fansubs we couldn't barely see the subs to, or hear vital BGM to?
gal...@my-dejanews.com
> negative vibes from some people in anime fandom?
I'd say that its because she was *the* focus of the
pro-sub vs fan-sub dispute several years back.
-Galen
Ben Cantrick
John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
>care, but I'm starting to see this increasingly more and more. In fact, I'm
>seeing it so much that in my estimation shes becoming another pariah of the
>industry and anime fandom in general. A title, the likes of which, is held by
>(among others) Carl Macek and Stuart Levy.
She's not a people person, and got into a flame-war here once. (Or
maybe it was on r.a.a. before "here" existed.)
She dubbed Ranma, and some purists will never forgive her for that.
Her attitude on fansubs doesn't endear her to anyone.
Some of us have heard her attempt at Kahm in the Outlanders dub. ;]
Seriously, I don't think that everyone universally hates Trish. She
has her supporters too. But there are a few die-hards who, for reasons I
don't understand, are nursing a grudge against her.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the BGC dubs still suck.
BGC Nukem: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/bgcnukem.html
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Enrique Conty
John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
>negative vibes from some people in anime fandom?
There's a number of reasons, both real and ludicrous:
- She's "top gun", as editor-in-chief of Animerica and pretty much the
speaking voice of Viz Comics.
- She doesn't kowtow to fanboys. So if said fanboys find *anything* wrong
with *anything* Viz puts out, it must be her fault. (See previous point.)
- She is trying to distance herself from her fannish past.
- A problem with some Zeta Gundam subbing project a long time ago.
Basically, a pro translator decided to join, but Trish protested
loudly... flamewar ensued, and Trish left the newsgroup for good.
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@enteract.com
Prepare for trouble! And make it double!
http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
eltronic
> >I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
> >negative vibes from some people in anime fandom?
She a very outspoken opinionated women who sometimes make brash sweeping
comments that tend to infuriate anime fans.
I remember once reading in a fanzine her stating that all anime fans were
spoiled brats. I emailed her my thoughts on her comment and she admitted that
she shouldn't have generalized.
-joe
--
Homepage: members.xoom.com/eltronic/index.html Email: eltr...@hotmail.com
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____________________AmNinCode v2.0_____________________
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David Crowe
: In article <7c2k92$p6n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
: >I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
: >negative vibes from some people in anime fandom?
: There's a number of reasons, both real and ludicrous:
: - She's "top gun", as editor-in-chief of Animerica and pretty much the
: speaking voice of Viz Comics.
: - She doesn't kowtow to fanboys. So if said fanboys find *anything* wrong
: with *anything* Viz puts out, it must be her fault. (See previous point.)
My favorite is how people hate her for the "Mr. Flunk-out" line in the
early issues of Maison Ikkoku. Never mind the fact that her name
doesn't appear in the issue since she wasn't even working for Viz at the
time...
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"Fool! You have not the _strength_ to kill..."
-Slaymaster's last words, Captain Britain TPB
raul
<yangn...@my-dejanews.com> meowed knowlingly...
$I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a
lot
$negative vibes from some people in anime fandom? Normally, I wouldn't
probably
Because...
a) she works in the industry, and
b) she has opinions
That's usually enough to make a person hated around these parts...
Outlanders had a lot to do with it also. At first, people hated her
because she didn't do a great job with her role as Kahm, and then MORE
people started hating her when she had the NERVE to act bitter when
people started bashing her for it.
Also, the fandom has a habit of immediately labeling people as "evil"
when they fail to comply to every whim and desire of the fans. And I
admit I'm not entirely innocent of this... ^^;;;;
m(raul)m
Just tellin' it like it is...
---
remove "qwerty" to reply by email
Enrique Conty
David Crowe <jet...@primenet.com> wrote:
>My favorite is how people hate her for the "Mr. Flunk-out" line in the
>early issues of Maison Ikkoku. Never mind the fact that her name
>doesn't appear in the issue since she wasn't even working for Viz at the
>time...
Not quite. She WAS working for Viz. She WASN'T working on MI.
She took over MI some time later. (BTW, from what I know
Trish is personally a MI fan... ^_^;;)
C. M. Hagmaier
people stopped jumping all over the Ledoux thing, and that another
age will end when everybody has forgotten why Ledoux was so unpopular.
Is that point here yet? I don't know...
So did anyone ever start defining what was First Anime Fandom
and what was Second Anime Fandom?
I would guess that First Anime Fandom was the collection of people
that participated in the fanzines of the 70s and early 80s.
Second Anime Fandom would probably be the kids who thought the
world of Robotech & traded heavily in unsubtitled copies of Japanese
material. This would be the era of the C/FO. Third Anime Fandom would
be the Fansub people. Fourth Anime Fandom... it's hard to separate out
distinguishing characteristics, although I'm fairly sure that we're in
the midst of the great 4th Anime wave...
--
C. Mitchell Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Terraforming
"Seven Days or Your Money Back"
_Dangerous Advice_: http://www.clubs.psu.edu/pssfs/dang-advice/
davecolton on BIX
Well said.
Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
really is just fanboy whining.
I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
"Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
girl (or boy as the case may be)."
I say much of the same reaction to her translation of Five Star
Stories when the truth is, 99.99% of the people kvetching
couldn't translate a Sushi Bar menu let along a manga.
And as someone else said earlier in the thread, the fact that
she is working so prominently in the industry is not a subtle
motivation. Good for her.
Now if you all really want to bash someone, the folks at
Mixxedupzine. . .
towo...@concentric.net
> She a very outspoken opinionated women who sometimes make brash sweeping
>comments that tend to infuriate anime fans.
In other words, she's just like any other major anime fan (or otaku, if
you prefer).
8)
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
David Crowe
: Well said.
Or Ironcat Comics. Clunky translations, footnotes explaining all the
jokes and very poor reproduction of the art... Simply awful.
Invid Fan
<kyo...@csrlink.net> wrote:
> I'm developing this theory that an age of anime fandom ended when
> people stopped jumping all over the Ledoux thing, and that another
> age will end when everybody has forgotten why Ledoux was so unpopular.
>
> Is that point here yet? I don't know...
>
> So did anyone ever start defining what was First Anime Fandom
> and what was Second Anime Fandom?
>
> I would guess that First Anime Fandom was the collection of people
> that participated in the fanzines of the 70s and early 80s.
You could call the Astoboy/Speed Racer generation sort of pre-fandom,
but the first age started with Star Blazers in 1978
> Second Anime Fandom would probably be the kids who thought the
> world of Robotech & traded heavily in unsubtitled copies of Japanese
> material. This would be the era of the C/FO.
They were mostly centered at universities, mixing with Japanese
students and communicating via early e-mail.
> Third Anime Fandom would
> be the Fansub people.
I don't know. Fansubs blended in with untranslated stuff seamlessly.
That is, it wasn't much of a difference between watching anime with a
script, and later putting that script on the screen. I'd put it as the
later end of the second fandom, which brings us to...
The Third Age: Comercial animation. US companies bringing over
subtitled and dubbed ucut anime.
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <7c49je$u...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
towo...@concentric.net wrote:
>In rec.arts.anime.misc eltronic
><Hey@least.I'm.not.in.the.same.room.as.you.com> wrote:
>> She a very outspoken opinionated women who sometimes make brash sweeping
>>comments that tend to infuriate anime fans.
>
>In other words, she's just like any other major anime fan (or otaku, if
>you prefer).
You mean we're all outspoken women?^_^
Seriously, though, I don't think she's deserved half the complaints
that she gets. I mean, without her efforts to popularize anime, I
wouldn't be posting here right now, nor would my bookshelf be more
like my video shelf. It's people like her that got me into anime, and
as a result, I think I owe them something.
About the only gripe I have about anything concerning her is the
translations to lyrics in the music of Ranma and other Viz anime.I
mean, if you want it singable and understandable, why not use both an
english translation and the Japanese in romaji?
Arnold Kim
thinks Japanese lyrics sound way cooler
Arnold Kim
----------
>I'm developing this theory that an age of anime fandom ended when
>people stopped jumping all over the Ledoux thing, and that another
>age will end when everybody has forgotten why Ledoux was so unpopular.
>
>Is that point here yet? I don't know...
>
>So did anyone ever start defining what was First Anime Fandom
>and what was Second Anime Fandom?
>
>I would guess that First Anime Fandom was the collection of people
>that participated in the fanzines of the 70s and early 80s.
>Second Anime Fandom would probably be the kids who thought the
>world of Robotech & traded heavily in unsubtitled copies of Japanese
>material. This would be the era of the C/FO. Third Anime Fandom would
>be the Fansub people. Fourth Anime Fandom... it's hard to separate out
>distinguishing characteristics, although I'm fairly sure that we're in
>the midst of the great 4th Anime wave...
I think the fourth anime fandom would be what I call the "dub
revolution" when unedited anime in english started seeping its way
mainstream. That's when companies like Viz started making dubs that
weren't terrible, and anime actually started popping up on store
shelves. But it still remains quiet enough that not too many outside
fandom have noticed it.
Arnold Kim
Alan D. Peters
popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
--
Alan D. Peters
animem...@xoommail.com
For a complete listing of all commercially available
Anime and Manga in English, visit AnimeMania
Purchase thousands of Anime and Live-Action Oriential
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C. M. Hagmaier wrote:
> I'm developing this theory that an age of anime fandom ended when
> people stopped jumping all over the Ledoux thing, and that another
> age will end when everybody has forgotten why Ledoux was so unpopular.
>
> Is that point here yet? I don't know...
>
> So did anyone ever start defining what was First Anime Fandom
> and what was Second Anime Fandom?
>
> I would guess that First Anime Fandom was the collection of people
> that participated in the fanzines of the 70s and early 80s.
> Second Anime Fandom would probably be the kids who thought the
> world of Robotech & traded heavily in unsubtitled copies of Japanese
> material. This would be the era of the C/FO. Third Anime Fandom would
> be the Fansub people. Fourth Anime Fandom... it's hard to separate out
> distinguishing characteristics, although I'm fairly sure that we're in
> the midst of the great 4th Anime wave...
>
Antaeus Feldspar
> Well said.
>
> Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
> really is just fanboy whining.
>
> I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
> think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
> the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
> "Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
> girl (or boy as the case may be)."
The problem is that there is a double standard. On the one
hand, the companies are saying "Take this stuff seriously enough, value
it enough, to spend your disposable income on it." But at the same
time, they're saying, "Don't take it seriously enough to have any issues
with the quality of the product, or we'll mock you for being a
'fanboy.'" How do you reconcile those two? Why should people be
obligated to care *just* enough to shell out their cash, but not more?
-jc
--
* -jc IS *NOW* feld...@cryogen.com
* Home page: http://members.tripod.com/~afeldspar/index.html
* The home of >>Failed Pilots Playhouse<<
* "Better you hold me close than understand..." Thomas Dolby
Jim Huang
says...
> well versed in Japanese would understand). I don't know if you was here
> in 1995, but there was a particularly ugly episode here (when it was just
> rec.arts.anime) where some mental reject, pissed because of her liberal
> translations of the Ranma theme songs, actually started posting death
> threats directed at her personally; she eventually left the NG because of
> it, and Toshi shortly afterwards (tho' he was still a member of the Ranma
Funny, I recall she left RAA in 1993, long before that.
When will you stop linking those two unreleated events
together?
Jim Huang
Jim Huang
says...
> wrong; I'll check and see, if possible, and if I am wrong I apologise.
She got on R.A.A., a few week after AX 93. She left the
R.A.A., due the regative reactions to her own speech(not the
company she represents), by the end of the year. She poped
on RAA/RAAM up now and then, made maybe 1 or 2 announcements
a year since then.
The event you talked about is Winter 95/96. But I think
there are people who tries to link two together solely for
the purpose of guilt-by-association.
Jim Huang
Neko-san
pir...@best.com (Danielle Scott) wrote:
>What I am wondering is;
>
>
>What is wrong with you people?
>
>
>That should really be something to talk about instead ;)
>
>
>But hey, that is just me :O
>
>
>--
>------
>Danielle Scott
>pir...@pirotas.com Disarm you with a smile ... :)
>http://www.pirotas.com "Disarm" - Smashing Pumpkins
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
> Well said.
>
> Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
> really is just fanboy whining.
<sigh>
You just couldn't have said it's: "Whining by obnoxious self centered people
who have to have their own way"? You had to use the F word, didn't you?
>
> I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
> think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
> the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
> "Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
> girl (or boy as the case may be)."
>
The trouble I have with stuff like that, is that what one person thinks
is irrational, another might see otherwise. From what I hear from people
here, Trish has opinions that could just as easily be deemed a "fanboyish"
(errr, that would be "fangirlish"). Anybody that thinks they can do better
than industry members are fanboys. Pure and simple. It's every bit as specious
as claiming people who are suffer from a grumpy disposition can benefit from
sexual intercourse (What the fuck?!)
I used to think it's HOW they presented their arguments. In the case of how
your using it, that could be the case. It might have even been the general
concensus many aeons ago. All too often, people are shot down because they
simply don't have the ability to articulate themselves better. However,
nowadays, it doesn't matter if your a 36 year old English major with a PhD,
married with children, and make six figures, you could easily still be called
a fanboy. Especially if you bring up something that somebody feels is a waste
of bandwidth because they simply could care less about hearing your point.
Not ragging on Trish here, because for all I know, the woman could actually
make a lot of sense if people just stop and listen more (this as well happens
all too often).
BTW, Shatner's statement delt with obsesson. "Fanboyism" has mutated to the
point where it's outgrown the confines of that definition. That's not to say
that some people don't still use it in such context. It's just been tainted so
bad, I can't see why anybody could use it anymore with a clear conscience, or
without further elaboration to explain its use.
> Now if you all really want to bash someone, the folks at
> Mixxedupzine. . .
>
Aren't people pissed off at Mixxzine because they're:
A) Not doing what its readership wants?
B) Dicking around with the translations, and intracacies of the Manga they
present?
Ahem...
I hereby delcare that all people who complain publicly about Mixxzine are
fanboys (or fangirls)! It's ludicrous for people to bitch about a silly
magazine! Stuart Levy had the right to do whatever he wants as a legitimate
business owner!
See what I mean?
The pendulum goes both ways. I've always said keeping your mouth shut is the
only surefire way to not be have the term applied to you.
Use logic, not vague epithets! Those that can and do defuse situations under
such circumstances are truly gifted.
----
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr. --- is...@usagi.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Jeff Williamson
>as claiming people who are suffer from a grumpy disposition can benefit from
>sexual intercourse (What the fuck?!)
I don't know, it usually cheers me right up.
--Angst-sensei
(Couldn't resist.)
--
/-\ ** Jeff Williamson ### Lightfall Interactive ### Evanston, IL ** /-\
|A| O_o doca...@enteract.com ^_^ ACen HomePage: http://www.acen.org/ |9|
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\-/ * =If you're Friends with Key, well, then, you're friends with me= * \-/
davecolton on BIX
Well I suppose one should at least acknowledge that you took
the time and effort to type a post. But that is about it.
Your sarcasm is infinitely misplaced.
For example, when Trish and Toshi were working on Animag,
where were others? Robert launched AnimEigo, John did CPM.
They actually created the niches and career paths for themselves
and others.
Trish has gotten where she has because she has worked damned
hard for now over a decade promoting anime. It is easy to
complain about others, but far harder to do.
Whether one declares something or not is of interest to you
and maybe others. But I compare Trish's long commitment to
anime and dedication to a fanboy's complaint and to me there
is no comparison.
As for Mixxzine, Ron Scovil is a friend (and one of the most
knowledgable people about Japanese animation and manga that
I met). I'll accept his version of events and have the comparison
of their 1st anniversary issue and the latest as objective
comparison.
And yes, I think Shatner's observations defintely apply to anime
fandom. In spades.
Gimped Panda
>
> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
--
Troy <tnee...@home.com>
"Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?/ Joltin' Joe has left and gone away."
Rest in Peace Joe DiMaggio
"Try anything you like but when I say I'll kill you,
there's nothing you can do but die."
-Himura Kenshin
"Your cooking is a little better than mine."
-Kaoru
"I'm a wandering Rurouni. I'm going to return to my journey."
-Himura Kenshin
"A dog can be appeased by food, and a man can be bought
with money. But no one will ever own Mubu's Wolf."
-Saitoh
Ronald Spillman
davecolton on BIX
JC, anime IS a disposable product. What do you think Bandai does
with Gundam? The anime is marketing ploy to sell more toys.
Every Gundam series is a section of an Excel spreadsheet.
Sure, everyone should have and should articulate opinions
about a product, the same as cars, CD players and computers.
If one does not like a product like a Ford or a BMW, the
solution is not buy one and/or encourage others not to
by explaining why you have that opinion.
But attacking personally a person is a bit immature.
Companies like Viz, ADV, CPM, etc. are competing with
movies, CDs and books for your entertainment dollar.
Vote with your pocketbook.
davecolton on BIX
>--Angst-sensei
>(Couldn't resist.)
Touche. LOL. Okay, it was a little too sarcastic:-)
C. M. Hagmaier
But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
Viz to the folks at Mixxzine. Second fandom's bad guy was
Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
defined by strawmen?
James King
>I refuse to define ages of anime fandom by series.
>
>But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
>when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
>Viz to the folks at Mixxzine. Second fandom's bad guy was
>Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
>defined by strawmen?
Who's Sandy Frank?
--
James 'Tengu' King -The Magpie of Millennial Madness
"Hello, Mr. Postmodern"
-Lyabibrave referring to me on r.a.a.m.
Visit the Anime Tangents Page:
http://westwood.fortunecity.com/smith/467/tangents_index.htm
---------------
Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law --
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed --
- In Memoriam A. H. H., by Alfred Lord Tennyson, 1850
Ronald Spillman
Jim Huang wrote:
>
>
> > You sure about that? I seem to recall she was here in 1995, but I could be
> > wrong; I'll check and see, if possible, and if I am wrong I apologise.
>
> She got on R.A.A., a few week after AX 93. She left the
> R.A.A., due the regative reactions to her own speech(not the
> company she represents), by the end of the year. She poped
> on RAA/RAAM up now and then, made maybe 1 or 2 announcements
> a year since then.
>
> The event you talked about is Winter 95/96. But I think
> there are people who tries to link two together solely for
> the purpose of guilt-by-association.
>
> Jim Huang
That must have been what I saw then. I apologise for my mistake.
John Hokanson Jr.
doca...@enteract.com (Jeff Williamson) wrote:
> In article <7c4otm$m91$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > It's every bit as specious
> >as claiming people who are suffer from a grumpy disposition can benefit from
> >sexual intercourse (What the fuck?!)
>
> I don't know, it usually cheers me right up.
>
I wouldn't know. Thank you for sharing that though. "^_^"
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
> the time and effort to type a post. But that is about it.
>
Oh wow, do I get a microwave oven or something as a consolation prize? :P
I'm snipping the part about Trish, because, as I made it very clear, I have no
beef with her.
> As for Mixxzine, Ron Scovil is a friend (and one of the most
> knowledgable people about Japanese animation and manga that
> I met). I'll accept his version of events and have the comparison
> of their 1st anniversary issue and the latest as objective
> comparison.
>
I know Ron too from e-mail correspondence. But my point is that a point can be
made against people that boycott Mixx that they are fanboys.
That's all I'm basically saying. When you put THAT into perspective, it just
goes to show you how utterly stupid it is. I try to avoid using it whenever
possible.
> And yes, I think Shatner's observations defintely apply to anime
> fandom. In spades.
>
Perhaps.
But Shatner also alienated most of the Star Trek cast with his ego. Not the
type of person I would turn to when it comes to advice about social skills.
John Hokanson Jr.
feld...@cryogen.com (Antaeus Feldspar) wrote:
> davecolton on BIX <davec...@BIX.com> wrote:
>
> > Well said.
> >
> > Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
> > really is just fanboy whining.
> >
> > think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
> > the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
> > "Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
> > girl (or boy as the case may be)."
>
> hand, the companies are saying "Take this stuff seriously enough, value
> it enough, to spend your disposable income on it." But at the same
> time, they're saying, "Don't take it seriously enough to have any issues
> with the quality of the product, or we'll mock you for being a
> 'fanboy.'" How do you reconcile those two? Why should people be
> obligated to care *just* enough to shell out their cash, but not more?
>
Antaeus has an excellent point. The companies are not immune to the same
caveats that plague the general populace of anime fans. "Fanboy" is a word
of convenience. A definate double standard is in effect.
I don't know why you and I had a problem earlier. :P
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
You know, I *really* don't want to touch this one, because it'll
look like I'm defending the Trish-bashers, but let me at least say
this:
Criticizing an individual is no more immature than if that person has
a streak of immaturity themselves. If somebody says something offensive
I don't blame the publication or forum it was printed in, I blame
the person. I generally believe ad hominem snipes are what should be
avoided. You'll get no argument out of me there, but "fanboyism" is a big
gray line.
> Companies like Viz, ADV, CPM, etc. are competing with
> movies, CDs and books for your entertainment dollar.
> Vote with your pocketbook.
>
The problem is, people who complain about companies are also considered
fanboys. There's also the school of thought where it's pointless to get your
feathers ruffled over a inanimate object or a corporate entity, but getting
upset over the actions of a person is acceptable. It never ends....
Oh, and would you believe I was called a fanboy once for claiming I wouldn't
buy a certain companies' products (by the president of said company no less)?
You might think (even though you don't know me) I'm pathetic because somebody
somewhere used the word fanboy in conjunction with a post I made, and thus I
recoil in disgust when I here it brazenly applied to anybody, and that's your
prerogative. I'm tired of having to proove I'm not something that's so broad
to the point of being asinine.
So yes, there is a definate and disturbing problem in anime fandom. But its
in the last place anybody would ever think to look...
Michael Borgwardt
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) writes:
>
> Well I suppose one should at least acknowledge that you took
> the time and effort to type a post. But that is about it.
After all those whining "anti-fanboys", it was a definite improvement.
I mean, is repetitive whining about other people's supposed lack
of maturity and the cooking up of oh-so-witty expressions as "fanwank"
any more mature than repetitive whining about someone's supposed
offenses against fandom and the cooking up of oh-so-witty constructs
as "LeBlow"?
--
Michael "Brazil" Borgwardt --- Member of #WASHU# and Her would-be guinea-pig.
Untiring defender of Washu-chan, Asuka-chan and Elektra-chan.
A Homepage for Elektra: http://www.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~borgward/
ANT - Animeclub fuer Deutschland: http://www.online.de/home/Rumiya/ant/
--------------- Let`s shake the dew off this lily, shall we ? ---------------
Geoff Tebbetts
"Arnold Kim" <ki...@erols.com> wrote:
> Seriously, though, I don't think she's deserved half the complaints
> that she gets. I mean, without her efforts to popularize anime, I
> wouldn't be posting here right now, nor would my bookshelf be more
> like my video shelf. It's people like her that got me into anime, and
> as a result, I think I owe them something.
I agree...and no, that's not because I write for a publication released by
Viz. -_-
I believe it's all a factor of prominence. Back when anime was beginning to
gather companies for American release, there weren't too many faces
associated to anime in America. Therefore, I feel, whenever something wrong
happens, the public opinion focuses heavily on that person. You can argue
the same for Carl Macek; he made a horrible dub, and because he was one of
the only faces we recognized, he was associated to a whole lot of criticism
and was the subject of many bashes. That's not to say that he's out of the
clear...
Trish, I feel, got a similar treatment. Some fans didn't like what they saw
or some of the things they heard her say, got defensive, and associated her
with trying to deny anime fandom. I feel it might have gotten out of
control, because she was one of the big names in American anime.
This could also explain why the hubub has died down. There are a lot more big
names in American anime nowadays. With all of these companies releasing anime
and manga, there are a lot more people fans are pointing fingers at and
dispersing their sentiment. I feel that's why Trish's association to hatred
among fans has died down: there are other things to worry about.
Just my sentiments on it.
Geoff Tebbetts
dai...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~daikun
davecolton on BIX
Re Shatner's social skills
Nice fanboy debating trick, but I never held Shatner out
as a role model. Merely pointing out what he said was
accurate. And for alienating people, the truth hurts sometime.
davecolton on BIX
>I refuse to define ages of anime fandom by series.
>But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
>when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
>Viz to the folks at Mixxzine. Second fandom's bad guy was
>Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
>defined by strawmen?
>--
>C. Mitchell Hagmaier
>Quest Labs Department of Terraforming
>"Seven Days or Your Money Back"
>_Dangerous Advice_: http://www.clubs.psu.edu/pssfs/dang-advice/
Lol, that is funny but perhaps more true than not. ALthough I
note that waves can and do overlap. As a card member in good
standing of the Cark Macek skeptics, one can still have a
problem with Frank as well as others (including UA).
But I also think Anno was right about otaku/fans and maturity.
Ther comes a point where it really is not possible to
retain the arrested adolescent pose yet the genre and
particularly the fanbase is not flexible in many respects.
davecolton on BIX
John, it appears that most of our exchange is premised on
your reaction to the word "fanboy" -- perhaps given what
the CEO said to you (context unknown here of course, so
pls. accept this as recognition that it was perhaps
undeserved).
That aside, I have re-read your posts and am unclear wht
your issues are with the premise of the posts.
davecolton on BIX
Other than attempting to create moral relativism, Michael,
what is it that you are trying to say? Can you address the merits
or must you create a strawman by focusing on one word?
Knight of the Black Rose
In article <davecolton...@BIX.com>, davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) writes:
>
>
> And yes, I think Shatner's observations defintely apply to anime
> fandom. In spades.
Fans are the same everywhere. Just replace their "Star Trek" shirts with anime shirts.
This is not only in regard to "fanboys" but also people like Trish.
Knight of the Black Rose
Glenn Shaw
>
>C. M. Hagmaier wrote...
>>Second fandom's bad guy was Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy
Frank. >>Fandom as defined by strawmen?
>
The person many anime fans hold responsible for eviscerating Gatchaman not
just once, but *twice.*
Glenn Shaw
...who *used* to enjoy "Battle of the Planets" and "G-Force"....
davecolton on BIX
Geoff:
That was well said. And rings true imo. And I would just
add that as a woman, her prominence was all the more visible.
davecolton on BIX
Okay, I'll bite.
Whatever did you mean? Could you explain? Your analogy is
definitely opaque.
Gilles Poitras
> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
I have often head this refered to as 'generations' as in the Robotech
generation, Sailor Moon generation.
Soon we may be talking about the Mononoke Hime generation.
I think this is a good way to chronicle the waves of new fans joining those
of us who were around earlier.
I would class the pre-mid 1970s era as a proto-fandom period since fandoms
organized roots start in the late 1970s.
But eras and generations could also be seen as seperate ways of organizing
the history of fandom into periods. The generations system is a good way to
show periods of large new fans discovering anime, eras would exist within
existing fandom. The two are not the same when divided by dates as it takes
time for newer fans to get integrated into established fandom.
--
Gilles Poitras
Author: Anime Companion
http://www.sirius.com/~cowpunk/
Carl Horn
--Carl "I'm gonna put on my iron shirt" Horn
Danielle Scott
What is wrong with you people?
That should really be something to talk about instead ;)
But hey, that is just me :O
--
------
Danielle Scott
pir...@pirotas.com Disarm you with a smile ... :)
http://www.pirotas.com "Disarm" - Smashing Pumpkins
Chris Schack
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
>Well said.
>
>Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
>really is just fanboy whining.
"Just" fanboy whining? Not to say there may not be a large element
of that, but that can't be all of it. The song translations, for
instance. Also, I wonder if she had anything to do with the lyrics
that came with the Opening Themes CD (that is to say, the lyrics
written down cut off before the sung lyrics do).
>I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
>think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
>the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
>"Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
>girl (or boy as the case may be)."
>
>I say much of the same reaction to her translation of Five Star
>Stories when the truth is, 99.99% of the people kvetching
>couldn't translate a Sushi Bar menu let along a manga.
Is nobody able to take a balanced view on this? There are people
who think Trish is Evil, those who seem to think she's done no
wrong worth speaking of ... she has made mistakes, from my POV,
and pointing out mistakes is good, but inflating things isn't.
>And as someone else said earlier in the thread, the fact that
>she is working so prominently in the industry is not a subtle
>motivation. Good for her.
>
>Now if you all really want to bash someone, the folks at
>Mixxedupzine. . .
Now that, I'll wholeheartedly go along with...
Chris Schack
Knight of the Black Rose
In article <davecolton...@BIX.com>, davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) writes:
> ufi...@lexis-nexis.com (Knight of the Black Rose) writes:
>
>>
>> And yes, I think Shatner's observations defintely apply to anime
>> fandom. In spades.
> >Fans are the same everywhere. Just replace their "Star Trek" shirts with anime shirts.
> >This is not only in regard to "fanboys" but also people like Trish.
> Okay, I'll bite.
>
> Whatever did you mean? Could you explain? Your analogy is
> definitely opaque.
I mean that fans are the same everywhere, good and bad. So, Shatner's comments would apply to all forms of fandom. If you replace a Star Trek fan's t-shirt with an anime shirt (i.e. change the obsession), they would be just like some of the anime fans you know. At an anime con, have you ever picked out "clones" of fans from your hometown anime group? Every club has them; every form of fandom has the same people.
eltronic
Arnold Kim wrote:
> Seriously, though, I don't think she's deserved half the complaints
> that she gets.
For past few years, I can't think of or heard a reasonable complaint towards
her, personally. Though, I haven't really heard or read anything from her in
five years, I haven't bought an anime magazine since Anime FX folded.Who needs
to pay for a magazine when you have the internet.
> I mean, without her efforts to popularize anime, I
> wouldn't be posting here right now, nor would my bookshelf be more
> like my video shelf. It's people like her that got me into anime, and
> as a result, I think I owe them something.
Absolutey, Viz picked up the ball with Ranma 1/2, that Streamline dropped after
the Akira buzz wore off.
-joe
--
Homepage: members.xoom.com/eltronic/index.html Email:
eltr...@hotmail.com
"The TAINT! That's what the people want! "-Mr.Show with Bob and David
____________________AmNinCode v2.0_____________________
N++ L H++ B+ M! T-- A++ U- I! P? F++ S-- NC-- V-- R-- D--PB-
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
> John, it appears that most of our exchange is premised on
> your reaction to the word "fanboy" -- perhaps given what
> the CEO said to you (context unknown here of course, so
> pls. accept this as recognition that it was perhaps
> undeserved).
Thank you.
>
> That aside, I have re-read your posts and am unclear wht
> your issues are with the premise of the posts.
>
Simply the "fanboy" bit. I was asking for opinions about Trish,
and why she recieves a lot of bad press. Although you gave me
one, I was abit agast that you refered to the "fanboys". That
wasn't exactly the in-depth and non-generalized answer I was
looking for. Aside from that, I think the word is a little
insensitive and broadly defined.
However, your defense of Trish *IS* noted. I don't want you
to think that by not responding to it I have ignored you or
the time you took to answer my original question.
----
John "Gameman" Hokanson Jr. --- is...@usagi.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>
>
> Nice fanboy debating trick,
Huh?
What's a fanboy debating trick? Is that where I point out the flaw in
one's past problems in dealing with people in order to prove that his
advice on the social ineptitude with people is inherently flawed?
> but I never held Shatner out
> as a role model.
No, but I think you were validating his retoric. Please correct me if I'm
wrong.
> Merely pointing out what he said was
> accurate. And for alienating people, the truth hurts sometime.
>
Yes, but I was talking about him alienating many of his former friends by
treating them like $#it. If being "socially graced" is dependant upon loosing
ones common courtesy or empathy for others, I want no part of it.
Paul Lampshire
>>
>>But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
>>when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
>>Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
>>defined by strawmen?
>
>Who's Sandy Frank?
He's the guy responsible for hacking 'Battle of the Planets.' out of
'Gatchaman'
--
God's in His heaven, all's right with the world.
John Hokanson Jr.
"James King" <jk...@accglobal.net> wrote:
> C. M. Hagmaier wrote in message <36E60B11...@csrlink.net>...
> >I refuse to define ages of anime fandom by series.
> >
> >But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
> >when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
> >Viz to the folks at Mixxzine. Second fandom's bad guy was
> >Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
> >defined by strawmen?
>
> Who's Sandy Frank?
>
Think of an older version of Carl Macek.
He dubbed some Gamera movies, as well as the anime "G-Force" ("Battle of the
planets", "Science Ninja Team Gatchaman", whatever you want to call it).
davecolton on BIX
Chris:
I agree with you. What I am waiting for in this thread is
a rational, coherent presentation of what precisely people
are complaining about: (a) what her actions or words were;
(b) why they mattered; and (c) what the preferred outcome
would have been.
Let us stipulate that people make mistakes, especially non-
professional translators. I do all the time <begin
shameless plug> at my Five Star Stories Site www.heika.net.
</end shameless plug>.
I am amazed at the email I get from people who are incensed
that I translated their preferred phrase "We've met again,
let's celebrate" as "We should celebrate after our meeting
again", etc. A bit sarcastic, but often not too far from that.
So when people complain about translations, I am not altogether
sympathetic without hearing a great deal more specifics.
And lest anyone be deemed perfect, an honest mistake is an
honest mistake and does not imo deserve total villification.
I would just like to hear the exact acts being complained of.
Re organizational things, it seems to me that she is the
target of complaints that more properly lie with Viz as
a corporate entity. I could be wrong, Chris, but other
that your post and maybe two or three others, there is
little more to this thread than "Trish is evil because
she sucks" sometimes.
And I just close by saying that Trish has paid serious
dues imo. Animag didn't just happen. People made it happen.
Just like Robert leaving Sir Tech and starting AnimEigo.
ADV (to me still an upstart but I need to get over that
mental image) began the same way, etc.
If people wish to complain and care about anime, their
never has been a better time to get involved. And if
one chooses not to, that's great as well. (er there never
above).
I would just want to hear reasoned presentation of
pov about Trish and her words and deeds. Otherwise,
the observation that the thread is merely fanboy
whining is deserved imo.
davecolton on BIX
re Your Recent Post About Fans
Well said. On that we agree. I just did not understand what
the specific connection was to Trish.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> >Who's Sandy Frank?
>
> He's the guy responsible for hacking 'Battle of the Planets.' out of
> 'Gatchaman'
He also butchered several perfectly adequate Japanese B-grade SF TV
series and films.
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
> Second fandom's bad guy was
> Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
> defined by strawmen?
Oh, my God...
I'm First Fandom.
(Sandy Frank, Sandy Frank, the source of all our pain...)
Tony
Charles Lin
>
> In article <36E5D807...@xoommail.com>, animem...@xoommail.com wrote:
>
> > I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> > popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> > we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
>
> I have often head this refered to as 'generations' as in the Robotech
> generation, Sailor Moon generation.
>
> Soon we may be talking about the Mononoke Hime generation.
I think we're currently in a mix of the Sailor Moon/Dragonball/Pokemon
generation. There are a lot of nascent anime fans that I've seen at
conventions who were brought into the fold because of these three. These
three are mainstream enough that people who say that they watch these would
not necessarily be considered anime fans. (Whereas at this point, even most
people who liked Kiki's Delivery Service, even if they saw the Disney
release first, are probably something of anime fans, just because they knew
about it...)
> I think this is a good way to chronicle the waves of new fans joining those
> of us who were around earlier.
>
> I would class the pre-mid 1970s era as a proto-fandom period since fandoms
> organized roots start in the late 1970s.
>
> But eras and generations could also be seen as seperate ways of organizing
> the history of fandom into periods. The generations system is a good way to
> show periods of large new fans discovering anime, eras would exist within
> existing fandom. The two are not the same when divided by dates as it takes
> time for newer fans to get integrated into established fandom.
I don't think it's integrating into established fandom, I think they change
established fandom and create the new establishment.
When the new fans enter with their different attitudes and views, the
reactionaries in the establishment shun them at first, while the moderates
don't like it but accept it. However, the reactionaries succeed in
alienating the new fans who deviate too far from the ideas of the
establishment. Gradually, enough new people come in where the volume
alienates the most reactionary, and they leave in disgust. In the end, the
center of fandom simply shifts, and the most radical members of the old
guard and the new blood are eliminated.
> --
> Gilles Poitras
> Author: Anime Companion
> http://www.sirius.com/~cowpunk/
--
Charles S. Lin cs...@duke.edu
"The wise man does not meditate on death, but on how to live."
-- Benedict Spinoza
"Man makes his world, or is crushed by the worlds made by others."
-- Denning & Philips
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <7c5pk9$hd0$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Geoff Tebbetts
<dai...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I agree...and no, that's not because I write for a publication released by
>Viz. -_-
>
>I believe it's all a factor of prominence. Back when anime was beginning to
>gather companies for American release, there weren't too many faces
>associated to anime in America. Therefore, I feel, whenever something wrong
>happens, the public opinion focuses heavily on that person. You can argue
>the same for Carl Macek; he made a horrible dub, and because he was one of
>the only faces we recognized, he was associated to a whole lot of criticism
>and was the subject of many bashes. That's not to say that he's out of the
>clear...
Exactly- it makes for an easier target.
>Trish, I feel, got a similar treatment. Some fans didn't like what they saw
>or some of the things they heard her say, got defensive, and associated her
>with trying to deny anime fandom. I feel it might have gotten out of
>control, because she was one of the big names in American anime.
And I don't profess to know the whole story, but it seems that a lot
of the things that fans blamed her for wasn't even her fault. I guess
that's one of the problems with being such a figurehead.
>This could also explain why the hubub has died down. There are a lot more
>big
>names in American anime nowadays. With all of these companies releasing
>anime
>and manga, there are a lot more people fans are pointing fingers at and
>dispersing their sentiment. I feel that's why Trish's association to hatred
>among fans has died down: there are other things to worry about.
Could be because fandom has been diluted somewhat with some fresh
blood that doesn't know what the big deal was against her. Or more
likely, because of the existence of other targets like ADV and
AnimeVillage divide up the dissent while Viz has actually made
themselves look a little better.
I also must admit that I sort of resent those anti-Trish fans- as I
was a newbie a few years ago, it seems they were pissed at her for
trying to get anime to people like me.
Arnold Kim
lifelong anime fan
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <ooq52clN...@interlog.com>, tmpm...@interlog.com
(Chris Schack) wrote:
>In article <davecolton...@BIX.com>,
>davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
>>
>>Well said.
>>
>>Usually, and in the case of Trish definitely, the said hatred
>>really is just fanboy whining.
>
>"Just" fanboy whining? Not to say there may not be a large element
>of that, but that can't be all of it. The song translations, for
>instance. Also, I wonder if she had anything to do with the lyrics
>that came with the Opening Themes CD (that is to say, the lyrics
>written down cut off before the sung lyrics do).
>
>>I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
>>think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
>>the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
>>"Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
>>girl (or boy as the case may be)."
>>
>>I say much of the same reaction to her translation of Five Star
>>Stories when the truth is, 99.99% of the people kvetching
>>couldn't translate a Sushi Bar menu let along a manga.
>
>Is nobody able to take a balanced view on this? There are people
>who think Trish is Evil, those who seem to think she's done no
>wrong worth speaking of ... she has made mistakes, from my POV,
>and pointing out mistakes is good, but inflating things isn't.
The thing is, I think it's hard to draw the line between what she's
responsible for and what is really Viz's fault. Some people, of
course, see her taking all the blame because in their mind, she sort
of is Viz.
Also, as I think this is an emotionally volatile issue, you're
obviously going to have some extreme reactions. Regarding someone who
one thinks (as do I) has done a fair amount of good for anime, there
is only one way to react- and that's with full force the other way.
The only way to counter such a venomous argument is to react
strongly-it's not terribly rational, but part of human nature.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <36E5FBB0...@home.com>, Gimped Panda
<tnee...@home.com> wrote:
>Alan D. Peters wrote:
>>
>> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
>> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
>> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
>Why Pokemon? Why? Why?
If we're defining it by series, I'd say Sailor Moon, since that series
probably hooked the most people into fandom since Robotech. Pokemon's
more popular, but not quite with the same crowd.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <gardenF8...@netcom.com>, gar...@netcom.com (Carl
Horn) wrote:
>Wasn't the "dub revolution" something that Lee Perry did?
>
I always figured it was with Viz, since Ranma seems to be the first
dub that wasn't _universally_ despised. I think it was around then
that anime made real inroads into the video stores, IIRC.
The mainstreamization of fandom, as I call it.
Arnold Kim
probably beyond that "mainstream fandom"
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <36E6E7D2...@duke.edu>, Charles Lin <cs...@duke.edu>
wrote:
>Gilles Poitras wrote:
>>
>> In article <36E5D807...@xoommail.com>, animem...@xoommail.com
>wrote:
>>
>> > I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
>> > popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
>> > we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
>>
>> I have often head this refered to as 'generations' as in the Robotech
>> generation, Sailor Moon generation.
>>
>> Soon we may be talking about the Mononoke Hime generation.
>
>I think we're currently in a mix of the Sailor Moon/Dragonball/Pokemon
>generation. There are a lot of nascent anime fans that I've seen at
>conventions who were brought into the fold because of these three. These
>three are mainstream enough that people who say that they watch these would
>not necessarily be considered anime fans. (Whereas at this point, even most
>people who liked Kiki's Delivery Service, even if they saw the Disney
>release first, are probably something of anime fans, just because they knew
>about it...)
Wouldn't bet on it, since you seem to be overestimating the size of
anime fandom by a couple million people. Anime fandom cannot be
responsible for most of the few million copies it has sold.
>> I think this is a good way to chronicle the waves of new fans joining those
>> of us who were around earlier.
>>
>> I would class the pre-mid 1970s era as a proto-fandom period since fandoms
>> organized roots start in the late 1970s.
>>
>> But eras and generations could also be seen as seperate ways of organizing
>> the history of fandom into periods. The generations system is a good way to
>> show periods of large new fans discovering anime, eras would exist within
>> existing fandom. The two are not the same when divided by dates as it takes
>> time for newer fans to get integrated into established fandom.
>
>I don't think it's integrating into established fandom, I think they change
>established fandom and create the new establishment.
Exactly. Compare this newsgroup as it is now to what it was 3 years
ago.
Arnold Kim
wasn't here 3 years ago, but read about it on Dejanews...
Avatar
>
> ----------
> In article <36E5FBB0...@home.com>, Gimped Panda
> <tnee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> >> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> >> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
>
> If we're defining it by series, I'd say Sailor Moon, since that series
> probably hooked the most people into fandom since Robotech. Pokemon's
> more popular, but not quite with the same crowd.
True. Pokemon appeals to five-to-thirteen-year-old boys, who watch the
show, immediately rush out and get Game Boy systems and the game, and
then -sit still for hours playing a stats-based RPG-. I never thought
that I'd consider a merchandise vehicle to be a positive social force,
but... ^_^
Avatar
--
"Why do you not let me contemplate in peace?"
"'Cause I'm the GOD OF DESTRUCTION, that's why!"
-Kushinada and Susano Orbatos, "Orion", Shirow
Jurai Knight
>
> Hope I spelled her name right...
>
> I was just wondering if anybody can tell me why Trish Ledoux gets a lot
> negative vibes from some people in anime fandom? Normally, I wouldn't probably
> care, but I'm starting to see this increasingly more and more. In fact, I'm
> seeing it so much that in my estimation shes becoming another pariah of the
> industry and anime fandom in general. A title, the likes of which, is held by
> (among others) Carl Macek and Stuart Levy.
>
> My question is really quite simple: Why?
Well, the woman does need to work on her people skills. The closest that I came to Trish
was at one of the Anime Expos (I believe it was AX97) when Galaxy Express 999 was
premiering. Viz was very late in delivering the tape to the screening room, and the poor
girl (a Con volunteer) who was working the VCR in the room apparently had to put up with a
screaming Trish ordering her to eject what was playing and put this tape in and play it
right then and there. A friend of mine who was in charge of the Technical Staff told me
that the girl in question was in tears from the shredding that Trish gave her, and that
several people walked out of the screening room due to the tirade given. This was a
couple of years ago, but I remember that it shocked me. Does anyone else have a more
accurate description of what happened or other similar events?
Michael Borgwardt
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) writes:
>>I mean, is repetitive whining about other people's supposed lack
>>of maturity and the cooking up of oh-so-witty expressions as "fanwank"
>>any more mature than repetitive whining about someone's supposed
>>offenses against fandom and the cooking up of oh-so-witty constructs
>>as "LeBlow"?
> Other than attempting to create moral relativism, Michael,
> what is it that you are trying to say?
Isn't it obvious?
> Can you address the merits
merits?
> or must you create a strawman by focusing on one word?
Where was I focussing on one word? Fact is, some people seem to be unable
to let pass any occasion to rant and rave about what pathetic, whiny
losers some anime fans are, and these rants are hardly less pathetic
and whiny. Seems that these people want to prove that they themselves
could never be "whiny, no-life fanboys" that way.
--
Michael "Brazil" Borgwardt --- Member of #WASHU# and Her would-be guinea-pig.
Untiring defender of Washu-chan, Asuka-chan and Elektra-chan.
A Homepage for Elektra: http://www.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~borgward/
ANT - Animeclub fuer Deutschland: http://www.online.de/home/Rumiya/ant/
--------------- Let`s shake the dew off this lily, shall we ? ---------------
Carl Horn
What are you saying...?
--Carl "I don't care, you think I care?" Horn
davecolton on BIX
>Isn't it obvious?
>merits?
Thank you Michael. You have demonstrated my point more
concisely than I did.
Alan D. Peters
Sailor Moon fans have already hit the beach. They have already
found their way to r.a.a.m and decided they should form their
own newsgroup alt.fan.sailor-moon. Pokemon is generating lots
of web sites but I haven't seen a lot of posts about it, at least
not on r.a.a.m, do you think they are coming.
--
Alan D. Peters
animem...@xoommail.com
For a complete listing of all commercially available
Anime and Manga in English, visit AnimeMania
Purchase thousands of Anime and Live-Action Oriental
(Japanese, Hong Kong and Mainland China) videos and DVDs
http://members.xoom.com/animemania01/
Arnold Kim wrote:
> ----------
> In article <36E5FBB0...@home.com>, Gimped Panda
> <tnee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Alan D. Peters wrote:
> >>
> >> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> >> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> >> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
> >Why Pokemon? Why? Why?
>
> If we're defining it by series, I'd say Sailor Moon, since that series
> probably hooked the most people into fandom since Robotech. Pokemon's
> more popular, but not quite with the same crowd.
>
> Arnold Kim
Danielle Scott
>In article <7c6a9n$7a1$1...@shell5.ba.best.com>,
>Danielle Scott <pir...@best.com> wrote:
>>What I am wondering is;
>>
>>
>>What is wrong with you people?
>>
>>
>>That should really be something to talk about instead ;)
>>
>>
>>But hey, that is just me :O
>
>
>
>--Carl "I don't care, you think I care?" Horn
>
>
My boredom has outshined the sun
Kaoschan
btw) , the first song is translated into English, the next is Romaji, and
then the third (if there is a third), is usually just left as is (no subs,
romaji or otherwise).
Personally (okay, the Outlanders thing aside--the voice was really
annoying), I think she's doing a fine job with the subbing. It sounds like
the whole argument with Trish is similar to the whole translation arguments
you read around. People arguing and flaming about the little details ("But
this word should mean _this_ !") when really Japanese appears to me (and
granted, I only know a little) to be a give and take kind of thing. You're
never going to get a word for word translation (all the characters would
sound like Yoda! :p), and even in terms of meaning, it seems pretty much up
to interpretation.
The whole 'anybody' trashing just sounds like otaku whining to me. I have
to agree with William Shatner on this one.
Larraine @=@
kaos...@hotmail.com
Who thinks the people trashing her are just seriously jealous that they
_don't_ have her job...
Arnold Kim wrote in message <7c4g76$45m$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>About the only gripe I have about anything concerning her is the
>translations to lyrics in the music of Ranma and other Viz anime.I
>mean, if you want it singable and understandable, why not use both an
>english translation and the Japanese in romaji?
>
>Arnold Kim
>thinks Japanese lyrics sound way cooler
John Hokanson Jr.
>
> Thank you Michael. You have demonstrated my point more
> concisely than I did.
>
The more I read of you, the less that makes sense.
Michael's telling you exactly what I'm trying to tell you. You claim
to understand, but this comes off the heels of engaging in anti-fanboy
rhetoric. Even coming damn close to using the word in conjunction with me.
Something equally inane to the instances of Trish bashing that you're
all up in arms about.
I don't get it.
Ken Arromdee
>Isn't that what they've been doing? In the Ranma tapes I own (all subbed,
>btw) , the first song is translated into English, the next is Romaji, and
>then the third (if there is a third), is usually just left as is (no subs,
>romaji or otherwise).
The first song is not translated. In most cases it's a rewritten English song
which occasionally uses a few keywords from the original.
Yes, it's _that_ different.
Why couldn't they use a real translation on the subtitled version and only
put this on the dubs? (Aside from ego.)
--
Ken Arromdee |They said it was *daft* to build a space
arro...@inetnow.net |station in a swamp, but I showed them! It
karr...@nyx.nyx.net |sank into the swamp. So I built a second
http://www.inetnow.net/~arromdee|space station. That sank into the swamp too.
--------------------------------+My third space station sank into the swamp.
So I built a fourth one. That fell into a time warp and _then_ sank into the
swamp. But the fifth one... stayed up! --Monty Python/Babylon 5
no one of consequence
] "James King" <jk...@accglobal.net> wrote:
]> C. M. Hagmaier wrote in message <36E60B11...@csrlink.net>...
]> >I refuse to define ages of anime fandom by series.
]> >
]> >But I suspect that we went from third fandom to fourth fandom
]> >when the bete noire of the otaku shifted from Trish Ledoux &
]> >Carl Macek, and first fandom's was Sandy Frank. Fandom as
]> >defined by strawmen?
]> Who's Sandy Frank?
]>
]
]Think of an older version of Carl Macek.
]
]He dubbed some Gamera movies, as well as the anime "G-Force" ("Battle of the
]planets", "Science Ninja Team Gatchaman", whatever you want to call it).
o/~Sandy Frank, Sandy Frank/He's the source of all our paaaaain!o/~
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@io.com |
|"You know I like her. Scares the hell out of me sometimes, but I do like|
|her. Just, uh, don't tell her that." Dr. Franklin about Ivanova. -B5 |
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article.... |
Arnold Kim
----------
In article <7c920p$e...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Kaoschan"
<kaos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Isn't that what they've been doing? In the Ranma tapes I own (all subbed,
>btw) , the first song is translated into English, the next is Romaji, and
>then the third (if there is a third), is usually just left as is (no subs,
>romaji or otherwise).
Doesn't happen in the dub.
>Personally (okay, the Outlanders thing aside--the voice was really
>annoying), I think she's doing a fine job with the subbing. It sounds like
People also forget that she's actally _doing_ subbing. What other
reason is that for besides fan requests?
Arnold Kim
Kaoschan
and closing songs. Will have to do that. I definitely see how that can be
annoying.
As far as the 'why not' theory, I can't imagine how untranslatable the songs
would be into English (technically it already has been, if you have one of
the Viz soundtracks (which has the 1st op on it, that, thinking about it,
really _is_ different than what is on screen...) that they couldn't put it
on _both_. Frankly, they have their reasons (ego or otherwise), and just
for curiosity's sake I'd be interested to know, but oh well....
Larraine @=@
kaos...@hotmail.com
Ken Arromdee wrote in message <92118199...@iris.nyx.net>...>
Poole
Gilles Poitras wrote in message ...
>
>> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
>> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
>> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
>
>generation, Sailor Moon generation.
>
>Soon we may be talking about the Mononoke Hime generation.
>
Or maybe the Miyazaki or Studio Ghibi generation.
It's interesting to note that the deal with Disney includes them putting up
10% of total cost for new Ghibi films in exchange for release rights.
Myself, I have always been an animation fan. Anime is just part of it. A
bigger part recently.
Poole
Gimped Panda
> Sailor Moon fans have already hit the beach. They have already
> found their way to r.a.a.m and decided they should form their
> own newsgroup alt.fan.sailor-moon. Pokemon is generating lots
> of web sites but I haven't seen a lot of posts about it, at least
> not on r.a.a.m, do you think they are coming.
They may be coming, but not for a while, since, as has been stated most
of the Pokemon fans are 5-13 year old boys, most of whom don't know much
about computers or the internet, and definatly don't know much about
newsgroups, so, they probably won't come for a while longer untill they
learn more about computers and stuff.
> --
> Alan D. Peters
> animem...@xoommail.com
> For a complete listing of all commercially available
> Anime and Manga in English, visit AnimeMania
> Purchase thousands of Anime and Live-Action Oriental
> (Japanese, Hong Kong and Mainland China) videos and DVDs
> http://members.xoom.com/animemania01/
>
> Arnold Kim wrote:
>
> > ----------
> > In article <36E5FBB0...@home.com>, Gimped Panda
> > <tnee...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Alan D. Peters wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I think the waves have something to do with anime on TV as
> > >> popular TV series draw in a new waves of anime fans. I guess
> > >> we are experiencing the Pokemon Era.
> > >Why Pokemon? Why? Why?
> >
> > If we're defining it by series, I'd say Sailor Moon, since that series
> > probably hooked the most people into fandom since Robotech. Pokemon's
> > more popular, but not quite with the same crowd.
> >
> > Arnold Kim
--
Troy <tnee...@home.com>
"Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?/ Joltin' Joe has left and gone away."
Rest in Peace Joe DiMaggio
"Try anything you like but when I say I'll kill you,
there's nothing you can do but die."
-Himura Kenshin
"Your cooking is a little better than mine."
-Kaoru
"I'm a wandering Rurouni. I'm going to return to my journey."
-Himura Kenshin
"A dog can be appeased by food, and a man can be bought
with money. But no one will ever own Mubu's Wolf."
-Saitoh
mr bernard langham
Carl Horn wrote in message ...
>Wasn't the "dub revolution" something that Lee Perry did?
<g>
--
mr bernard langham . blu...@ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
spiral scratch independent label show/RTRfm public radio http://rtr.fm.net
--
"feel free to cite, sample, steal, sell, reference, borrow or plagiarize
anything that i have created, thought or said. information wants to be free
and intellectual property is both anachronistic and wrong" -- meme #96
EarthDwarf
Whatever happened to "the customer is always right?" As somebody who has
probably spent a four digit sum on anime, I'd like to at least be considered
part of "the customer."
-Knorin
Knorin's Concise Anime Reviews & Ratings (for those who just don't have the
time):
http://members.aol.com/earthdwarf/anime.html
A no-frills webservice
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> He dubbed some Gamera movies, as well as the anime "G-Force" ("Battle of the
> planets", "Science Ninja Team Gatchaman", whatever you want to call it).
I always called it "Techno-Ninja Squad Gatchaman."
That's what I call the difference between clunky translations and
English...
Tony
EarthDwarf
>put this on the dubs? (Aside from ego.)
Perhaps they should take a lead from ADV's handling of the Yohko songs
(whereas they put the "snappy" version on the episodes proper, but included
the literal translation subtitled on their music video collection). After all,
only anime fans would buy something like Viz' Digital Dojo.
davecolton on BIX
John, I am quite sure that you don't get it.
But it is not a big deal. Usenet is a big place, and people
are free to have all sorts of opinions:-)
No harm, no foul.
(I was being a wee bit sarcastic with Michael, btw).
But I for me, the thread has finally resolved to
specifics thanks to Jim Huang, Richard and few others.
And people can legitimately agree or disagree with
the specifics like adults and move on.
Someone a few messages back suggested that the thread
has about run tis course and they are probably right.
If I offended you or caused you annoyance, please
do take this as an attempt to put things to right.
The goal from this perspective was to get to facts
and I think that has been accomplished more or less.
Avatar
>
> >She doesn't kowtow to fanboys
>
> Whatever happened to "the customer is always right?" As somebody who has
> probably spent a four digit sum on anime, I'd like to at least be considered
> part of "the customer."
It's a marketing term, Earth. You oughta see how we treat people who
assert that at our store here... <g>
Avatar
they keep coming, because we really -do- have the best service...
Gilles Poitras
> They may be coming, but not for a while, since, as has been stated most
> of the Pokemon fans are 5-13 year old boys,...
It will be interesting to see if they show up at cons like Sailor Moon fans did.
The Sailor Moon generation was hitting the cons right after the series
started I suspect the Pokemon fans may not be as strongly represented. How
ever those of us with such fans in our fanilies could drag them along to
our local cons.
--
Gilles Poitras
Author: Anime Companion
http://www.sirius.com/~cowpunk/
Gilles Poitras
feld...@cryogen.com (Antaeus Feldspar) wrote:
> The problem is that there is a double standard. On the one
> hand, the companies are saying "Take this stuff seriously enough, value
> it enough, to spend your disposable income on it." But at the same
> time, they're saying, "Don't take it seriously enough to have any issues
> with the quality of the product, or we'll mock you for being a
> 'fanboy.'" How do you reconcile those two? Why should people be
> obligated to care *just* enough to shell out their cash, but not more?
Well my take on this is that fans have not only a right but a duty to criticise.
How they do so it what is important, well written arguments and civility
are important.
As for the whole Trish issue I have found her personally very rude in the
limited contact I have had with her at cons, but in her defense I must say
she has not done anything offensive in the past couple of years so i am
willing to cut her some slack.
The entire discussion on the word fanboy here could be split into another
thread. BTW Shatner's use of the term was in a comedy sketch not in real
situation.
Alan D. Peters
Gimped Panda wrote:
> > I thought they were referring to waves of fans, I feel that the
> > Sailor Moon fans have already hit the beach. They have already
> > found their way to r.a.a.m and decided they should form their
> > own newsgroup alt.fan.sailor-moon. Pokemon is generating lots
> > of web sites but I haven't seen a lot of posts about it, at least
> > not on r.a.a.m, do you think they are coming.
>
> They may be coming, but not for a while, since, as has been stated most
> of the Pokemon fans are 5-13 year old boys, most of whom don't know much
> about computers or the internet, and definatly don't know much about
> newsgroups, so, they probably won't come for a while longer untill they
> learn more about computers and stuff.
I thought most of the people into video games were highly connected
to the internet, free codes, tips, and the lastest info, you can't beat it.
Well if they are not now, they soon will be, Sega Dreamcast will be
able to surf the internet, Sony Playstation 2 is also a DVD player,
it sounds like game systems are trying to serve double duty and make
themselves an indispensable part of our lives.
<SNIP>
John Hokanson Jr.
davec...@BIX.com (davecolton on BIX) wrote:
> John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> writes:
>
> >>
> >> Thank you Michael. You have demonstrated my point more
> >> concisely than I did.
> >>
>
> >The more I read of you, the less that makes sense.
>
> >Michael's telling you exactly what I'm trying to tell you. You claim
> >to understand, but this comes off the heels of engaging in anti-fanboy
> >rhetoric. Even coming damn close to using the word in conjunction with me.
> >Something equally inane to the instances of Trish bashing that you're
> >all up in arms about.
>
> >I don't get it.
>
>
>
What I do get however, is you are very defensive of Trish. Okay. Fine. I
wanted to hear from people like that.
However, I took issue with the word "fanboy", and you seemed to balk when it
went off on that tangent.
davecolton on BIX
Uh, John?
I am not defensive of Trish at all. And whether you need to
"get" that is none of my concern or intent, really.
I simply am trying to do a triage of the "Trish sucks
because she sucks" stuff to find out what the fact are.
That is NOT defending her or being "defensive" of Trish.
It is simple common sense.
I make no apologies of being disdainful of fanboys.
If I had a cyber filter for my site like SurfWatch
that would block anyone who spells "rules" as
"rulz" and "you" as "u" and hopefuly with more
sophisticated filters later, I would gladly
pay big bucks :-)
But having been in the media myself in other contexts,
I am sympathetic to ad hominum attacks that are driven
less by content and more by personality issues, usually
of the attackers'/commentators' personality:-)
If you interpret that as being "defensive" of Ledoux,
you are welcome to your interpretation.
Kaoschan
Btw, which would be the clunky translation, and which would be English?
Larraine @=@
kaos...@hotmail.com
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <36E8A1...@indiana.edu>...
NEil Phillips
following wisdom:
>I thought most of the people into video games were highly connected
>to the internet, free codes, tips, and the lastest info, you can't beat it.
>Well if they are not now, they soon will be, Sega Dreamcast will be
>able to surf the internet, Sony Playstation 2 is also a DVD player,
>it sounds like game systems are trying to serve double duty and make
>themselves an indispensable part of our lives.
Well, I came here because of pokemon :)
but stayed for other reasons..
BTW, what are the chances of anyone actually BUYING the dreamcast? :)
--
NEil (phil...@gwbbs.net.au)
Support the use of real names on the Internet.
The opinions expressed in this message are not my own,
but rather are those of Microsoft Corporation.
John Hokanson Jr.
>
> Uh, John?
>
> I am not defensive of Trish at all. And whether you need to
> "get" that is none of my concern or intent, really.
Oh I'm sorry. I thought the following was very defensive of Trish:
----
"I personally am glad that she does not kowtow to fanboys and
think there should be more people like her implicitly telling
the fanbase to grow up and in the words of William Shanter,
"Get a life, move out of your parents' basement, kiss a real
girl (or boy as the case may be)."
"I say much of the same reaction to her translation of Five Star
Stories when the truth is, 99.99% of the people kvetching
couldn't translate a Sushi Bar menu let along a manga."
"And as someone else said earlier in the thread, the fact that
she is working so prominently in the industry is not a subtle
motivation. Good for her."
---
>
> I simply am trying to do a triage of the "Trish sucks
> because she sucks" stuff to find out what the fact are.
Is this before or after you assumed that all complaints about
her were the work of the "fanboys"?
> That is NOT defending her or being "defensive" of Trish.
> It is simple common sense.
>
> I make no apologies of being disdainful of fanboys.
> If I had a cyber filter for my site like SurfWatch
> that would block anyone who spells "rules" as
> "rulz" and "you" as "u" and hopefuly with more
> sophisticated filters later, I would gladly
> pay big bucks :-)
>
Now you're just trying to be cute, and I'm not laughing.
It seems to me your definition of fanboys is really broad
and vague. Or, you simply don't know much about what people
are upset at Trish over. You might want to consider forgoing
the readership of the r.a.a.* hierarchy. We have a lot of
opinionated people that could easily cause you do go off
like a bomb. And there's no amnesty granted towards
professionals here either.
John Hokanson Jr.
phil...@gwbbs.net.au (NEil Phillips) wrote:
> "Alan D. Peters" <animem...@xoommail.com> saw fit to share the
> following wisdom:
>
> >I thought most of the people into video games were highly connected
> >to the internet, free codes, tips, and the lastest info, you can't beat it.
> >Well if they are not now, they soon will be, Sega Dreamcast will be
> >able to surf the internet, Sony Playstation 2 is also a DVD player,
> >it sounds like game systems are trying to serve double duty and make
> >themselves an indispensable part of our lives.
>
> Well, I came here because of pokemon :)
>
> but stayed for other reasons..
>
> BTW, what are the chances of anyone actually BUYING the dreamcast? :)
>
I won't. But I know droves of people that have ran out to get the Japanese
console.
NEil Phillips
following wisdom:
>> BTW, what are the chances of anyone actually BUYING the dreamcast? :)
>
>I won't. But I know droves of people that have ran out to get the Japanese
>console.
Well, we might get one the same way we got the saturn..
When nobody wants them anymore.. (we picked up the saturn for $50 and
now games are like $10. Cheaper than super NES stuff, allmsot :) )
davecolton on BIX
Read it anyway you want, John.
EarthDwarf
>that would block anyone who spells "rules" as
>"rulz" and "you" as "u"
Amen! Down with omitted punctuation, all-lowercase spelling, deliberate
misspellings and spellings to represent afffected slang pronunciations. We'd
like such people to give our langauge back, if they don't mind.
John Hokanson Jr.
phil...@gwbbs.net.au (NEil Phillips) wrote:
> John Hokanson Jr. <yangn...@my-dejanews.com> saw fit to share the
> following wisdom:
>
> >> BTW, what are the chances of anyone actually BUYING the dreamcast? :)
> >
> >I won't. But I know droves of people that have ran out to get the Japanese
> >console.
>
> Well, we might get one the same way we got the saturn..
>
> When nobody wants them anymore.. (we picked up the saturn for $50 and
> now games are like $10. Cheaper than super NES stuff, allmsot :) )
> --
I bought my Saturn earlier when they were doing the three game promotion.
I modded it to play imports. SWEET! There's quite a few anime games for the
Saturn. Don't just look at the US market. Imports usually change peoples low
opinion about the Saturn.
davecolton on BIX
That is true, the best Saturn games sadly did not make it
to the U.S. One need not modify a Saturn, however. As is
well known, a Gameshark will allow imports to be played
without modifying the unit. (PSXs still require chips, and
now a new chip in fact).