Is Ryoga *truly* a better fighter than Ranma?
Karin Kanzuki
seems to be the topic of the moment =)
Now. Everyone seems to universally accept that Ryoga is a
better fighter than Ranma.
But here's a thought. Just say the two of them would fight
all out, say if Ranma lost, Ranma would be positive that
Akane would die. And if Ryoga lost, he would be positive
that Akane or Akari would die.
Who would win?
All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken techniques.
I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would use
them. I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
end of volume 28. Imagine the umisenken used in conjunction
with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
power techniques ...
Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
senkens?
~Ace .S.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Donny Cheng
Karin Kanzuki wrote:
>
> Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
> seems to be the topic of the moment =)
>
> Now. Everyone seems to universally accept that Ryoga is a
> better fighter than Ranma.
Not everyone. It's true that the last serious battles Ryoga and Ranma
fought against each other in, the former had most of the advantage, but
these battles took place before the latter volumes around mid 20 of the
manga. The chars are constantly improving, sometimes slowly, sometimes
faster. There were times when Ranma was above Ryoga in the early manga
and I don't see why it couldn't have happened again with the number of
fights he's gotten into.
> But here's a thought. Just say the two of them would fight
> all out, say if Ranma lost, Ranma would be positive that
> Akane would die. And if Ryoga lost, he would be positive
> that Akane or Akari would die.
>
> Who would win?
If Takahashi wrote it? Ranma would find someway to win even if he was
crippled or weakened or whatever. I imagine that he would win in such a
way that in the end everything was back to normal as Ranma 1/2's style.
My own beliefs follow that... when it counts, things will turn out in
Ranma's favor.
> All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken techniques.
> I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would use
> them. I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
> end of volume 28. Imagine the umisenken used in conjunction
> with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
> power techniques ...
Well he did learn the techniques quite fast, so I wouldn't be surprised
that if he wanted to, he could figure out how to learn the other set of
the Saotome art. But that's conjecture, and there aren't that many
techniques in the set he learned that stand on its own as they are
mostly counters to the other art. Not to say that Ranma's highly
adaptive skills couldn't change that little problem.
> Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
> senkens?
The perfect shishihokodan comes to mind as one of the most destructive
techniques. But, I would say if Ranma and Ryu could take shots from the
strongest of both arts and keep fighting, Ryoga could still put up a
good fight before he fell to it.
> ~Ace .S.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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ICQ #: 13236148
Hunter Kid
>Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
>seems to be the topic of the moment =)
Why do people want this thread to return again? It was bad enough the
first 50 times around...
>All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken techniques.
No, he has the umisenken. He has _not_ learned the yamasenken, and I
don't think he could have picked it up from simply being attacked with
it a couple times, especially since it's an entirely different
fighting style than he's used to. Look how long it took him to figure
out the SSH, and that was juts focusing chi, something he knew how to
do anyway.
The only person that knows both is Genma, and given his attitude, it's
likely to stay that way.
>I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
>Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
>could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would use
>them.
He wouldn't. Akane's life was on the line in volume 38, yet he didn't
so much as think of using the umisenken.
>I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
>end of volume 28. Imagine the umisenken used in conjunction
>with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
>power techniques ...
I don't think he does.
>Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
>senkens?
The perfect SSH is not as strong as the White Snake Venom Reliable
Fist; Ranma could take several hits from it and keep going, one attack
from Genma put Ranma out like a light. However, the PSSH has the
advantage of being an area-blast attack, so it's _possible_ that he
could take out Ranma before he could hit him. Doubtful, though.
However, the key question is how much damage the umisenken could
inflict on Ryouga. Most of the techniques are useless, being merely
counters to the yamasenken. Ryuu took two White Snake Venom Reliable
Fist attacks and kept fighting at full strength, but it could be that
Ryuu's simply tougher than Ryouga; there's not enough data to know for
sure.
But in any case, Ranma would not use the umisenken, so its a moot
point. And that means Ryouga would win -- Ryouga's strongest PSSH,
recall, was the one in volume 24 that took out Lime, who is a _lot_
tougher than Ranma, in one shot. It took the thought of him being
dead and Ranma and Akane together to bring him to that point. In the
scenario you've outlined, this is recreated and Ryouga's PSSH reaches
that tremendous strength again.
--
George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
Space | http://www.serve.com/guilds/astro/
Fanfiction | http://www.serve.com/guilds/ranma/
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LufWiki. You know you love it.
"Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur."
David Johnston
>
> Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
> seems to be the topic of the moment =)
>
> better fighter than Ranma.
More accurately, that he becomes a better fighter, because Blade says
so.
>
> But here's a thought. Just say the two of them would fight
> all out, say if Ranma lost, Ranma would be positive that
> Akane would die. And if Ryoga lost, he would be positive
> that Akane or Akari would die.
>
> Who would win?
>
> All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken techniques.
> I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would use
> them. I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
> end of volume 28.
Why do you think that?
Imagine the umisenken used in conjunction
> with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
> power techniques ...
>
> Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
> senkens?
Yes. The Perfect SSH. Just blow up.
Karin Kanzuki
Hunter Kid <gui...@mail.serve.com> wrote in message
news:37c5af20...@news.mindspring.com...
> Karin Kanzuki <karinkanzu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
> >seems to be the topic of the moment =)
>
bad enough the
> first 50 times around...
But they're sooo fun =P
>
> >All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken
techniques.
>
> No, he has the umisenken. He has _not_ learned the
yamasenken, and I
> don't think he could have picked it up from simply being
attacked with
> it a couple times, especially since it's an entirely
different
> fighting style than he's used to.
He totally understood the premises of the two techniques
and was even *teaching* Ryuu what those were as they
fought. He understood what the yamasenken was all about and
yet, Ryuu who has been practising it for God knows how
long, didn't.
Look how long it took him to figure
> out the SSH, and that was juts focusing chi, something he
knew how to
> do anyway.
How long did it take him to learn umisenken? *One* showing
from Genma! And don't forget, the yamasenken *is* a Saotome
technique too.
And the SSH is because well, he's not depressed enough to
use it. If he was depressed as Ryoga all the time, he would
have learnt that move much much quicker.
>
> The only person that knows both is Genma, and given his
attitude, it's
> likely to stay that way.
After all the fights with Ryuu and the knowledge Ranma's
shown about these arts, the very principles of them, I'd
say it's a safe bet that Ranma could use them both if he
was serious.
After all, Ryuu and his father learnt the technique through
*scrolls*. It's important understanding the principles of
it that lets you use the techs. This was proved by Ranma
learning the umisenken by understanding the fundamentals
which is that of the 'sneak thief'. I'd doubt the
yamasenken is totally different.
>
> >I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> >Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> >could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would
use
> >them.
>
> He wouldn't. Akane's life was on the line in volume 38,
yet he didn't
> so much as think of using the umisenken.
But he overcame it a different way. If Ranma knew the
*only* way he could win and save Akane was by using the
techs, he would use them.
>
> >I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
> >end of volume 28. Imagine the umisenken used in
conjunction
> >with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
> >power techniques ...
>
> I don't think he does.
He understood the fundamentals and how the tech works.
>
> >Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
> >senkens?
>
> The perfect SSH is not as strong as the White Snake Venom
Reliable
> Fist; Ranma could take several hits from it and keep
going, one attack
> from Genma put Ranma out like a light. However, the PSSH
has the
> advantage of being an area-blast attack, so it's
_possible_ that he
> could take out Ranma before he could hit him. Doubtful,
though.
The umiseken will make him invisible to Ryoga so he
wouldn't know how to hit him. Ranma'd just have to wait out
of range and then strike when he was vulnerable.
>
> However, the key question is how much damage the
umisenken could
> inflict on Ryouga. Most of the techniques are useless,
being merely
> counters to the yamasenken. Ryuu took two White Snake
Venom Reliable
> Fist attacks and kept fighting at full strength, but it
could be that
> Ryuu's simply tougher than Ryouga; there's not enough
data to know for
> sure.
Ryuu is *strong*, there's no doubt about that. Okay, Ryuu
VS Ryoga ... who would win? =P
>
> But in any case, Ranma would not use the umisenken, so
its a moot
> point.
But what if he did? That was the premise. I'm tempted about
writing fics with Ranma using those techs.
And that means Ryouga would win -- Ryouga's strongest PSSH,
> recall, was the one in volume 24 that took out Lime, who
is a _lot_
> tougher than Ranma, in one shot. It took the thought of
him being
> dead and Ranma and Akane together to bring him to that
point. In the
> scenario you've outlined, this is recreated and Ryouga's
PSSH reaches
> that tremendous strength again.
But the PSSH doesn't have *that* much range does it? And
Ranma knows how to exploit the weakness of it.
--
Ace .S.
http://jsa.users.fl.net.au
http://i.am/karinsan
"You must defeat my throw to stand a chance." - L-Karin
-
Karin Kanzuki
news:37C56627...@home.com...
>
>
> Karin Kanzuki wrote:
> >
> > Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
> > seems to be the topic of the moment =)
> >
a
> > better fighter than Ranma.
>
Ryoga and Ranma
> fought against each other in, the former had most of the
advantage, but
> these battles took place before the latter volumes around
mid 20 of the
> manga. The chars are constantly improving, sometimes
slowly, sometimes
> faster. There were times when Ranma was above Ryoga in
the early manga
> and I don't see why it couldn't have happened again with
the number of
> fights he's gotten into.
I have some doubts as well about Ryoga being so much better
than Ranma ... really, I think it's anyone's game depending
on the scenario.
>
> > But here's a thought. Just say the two of them would
fight
> > all out, say if Ranma lost, Ranma would be positive that
> > Akane would die. And if Ryoga lost, he would be positive
> > that Akane or Akari would die.
> >
> > Who would win?
>
> If Takahashi wrote it? Ranma would find someway to win
even if he was
> crippled or weakened or whatever. I imagine that he
would win in such a
> way that in the end everything was back to normal as
Ranma 1/2's style.
> My own beliefs follow that... when it counts, things will
turn out in
> Ranma's favor.
Of course. I guess I was talking theoretically.
>
> > All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken
techniques.
> > I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> > Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> > could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would
use
> > them. I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
> > end of volume 28. Imagine the umisenken used in
conjunction
> > with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
> > power techniques ...
>
> Well he did learn the techniques quite fast, so I
wouldn't be surprised
> that if he wanted to, he could figure out how to learn
the other set of
> the Saotome art.
I got the impression by the end that Ranma knew pretty much
all the fundamentals of both arts and how they work. It
would surprise me very little if he could use that
knowledge to do yamasenken if he really wanted to.
But that's conjecture, and there aren't that many
> techniques in the set he learned that stand on its own as
they are
> mostly counters to the other art. Not to say that
Ranma's highly
> adaptive skills couldn't change that little problem.
I'd say being invisible and super fast is a major cool
trick to have.
>
> > Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
> > senkens?
>
> The perfect shishihokodan comes to mind as one of the
most destructive
> techniques. But, I would say if Ranma and Ryu could take
shots from the
> strongest of both arts and keep fighting, Ryoga could
still put up a
> good fight before he fell to it.
Not if Ranma ripped out Ryoga's heart with the yamasenken
move =P. And don't forget, the two techs are 2 sides of a
coin, they would be able withstand against the effects
better than say, someone who didn't know anything about
them.
Karin Kanzuki
news:37C594...@telusplanet.net...
> Karin Kanzuki wrote:
> >
> > Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
> > seems to be the topic of the moment =)
> >
> > Now. Everyone seems to universally accept that Ryoga is
a
> > better fighter than Ranma.
>
because Blade says
> so.
And all his followers =P
>
> >
> > But here's a thought. Just say the two of them would
fight
> > all out, say if Ranma lost, Ranma would be positive that
> > Akane would die. And if Ryoga lost, he would be positive
> > that Akane or Akari would die.
> >
> > Who would win?
> >
> > All out, I'd say Ranma since he has the senken
techniques.
> > I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> > Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> > could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would
use
> > them. I also think Ranma knows the yamasenken too by the
> > end of volume 28.
>
> Why do you think that?
Like I said in the reply to HK, he understood the very
fundamentals of the art, how it works, and how to beat it.
Naturally, it only follows on, that if he really wanted to,
he could probably use it.
>
> Imagine the umisenken used in conjunction
> > with the yamasenken ... ouch =). Invisible AND supreme
> > power techniques ...
> >
> > Does Ryoga know anything comparable to the power of the
> > senkens?
>
> Yes. The Perfect SSH. Just blow up.
So you think the PSSH is as strong as Yamasenken and
Umisenken?
Bryan McNerney
power, that was the basis that was set for them at the beginning. They
are archetypical characters.
Blade
>Karin Kanzuki wrote:
>>
>> Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
>> seems to be the topic of the moment =)
>>
>> Now. Everyone seems to universally accept that Ryoga is a
>> better fighter than Ranma.
>
>More accurately, that he becomes a better fighter, because Blade says
>so.
Really. Yes, and people are -so- willing to accept my word alone. <snort>
More like, "people have accepted it because Blade has continuously and
convincingly defeated the logic of everyone who has tried to argue otherwise for
the last year and a half".
Of course, I can't take all the credit. Epsilon also did the same thing. It
has to do with the fairly self-evident nature of the question: Ryouga wins;
Ranma doesn't.
Blade
Frank Wustner
I didn't buy that before and I don't now. As many karate
instructors have told me: white belts can beat black belts.
All it takes is for the white belt to have practised the
forms enough.
Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
Saffron as Ranma did.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade
|-----------------------------------|
| "Never say 'bite me' to Shishio |
| Makoto." |
|-----------------------------------|
| Want to email me? Go to the URL |
| above and email me from there. |
|-----------------------------------|
Puma Twins
>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
>Saffron as Ranma did.
>
Lets see Lime go against Ranma would be a better proving point. Unless Ranma
can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
The skill thing vs Saffron doesn't matter as much as luck and improvisation
which Ranma has and which Ryouga hasn't. Ryouga and Ranma have the same amount
of Skill (I believe anyway). It's just that Ranma's better at improvising. If
he doesn't do it well enough, he gets crushed (SSH) if he does do a good job,
he wins (BP)
Anand Chelian
Puma Twins <puma...@aol.communist> wrote:
>>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
>>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
>>Saffron as Ranma did.
>Lets see Lime go against Ranma would be a better proving point. Unless Ranma
>can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
Ranma already has two. The mokotakabisha and the hiryuushotenha. At the
worst he could pull off the shishihokodan (which he does know how to do, but
is rarely depressed enough to pull off). In fact, Ranma can use all sorts
of ki to power mokotakabisha-style ki attacks (something Ryouga never seemed
to learn to do).
>The skill thing vs Saffron doesn't matter as much as luck and improvisation
>which Ranma has and which Ryouga hasn't. Ryouga and Ranma have the same amount
>of Skill (I believe anyway).
Right, sure, skill. Skill has nothing to do with understanding the art well
enough to improvise using bits and pieces picked up elsewhere I'll bet. I'll
get that Ryouga can go up against Ranma without using special attacks and win
(he hasn't except for a single time in the manga (when he had the stomach
painting that made him well-nigh invulnerable), the only one that he came
close to doing it in was the bakusaitenketsu story arc).
It's just that Ranma's better at improvising. If
>he doesn't do it well enough, he gets crushed (SSH) if he does do a good job,
>he wins (BP)
The shishihokodan story arc is interesting in that Ranma was the one
attacking. This meant that Ranma could not use some of his really cool
defensive techniques, like the hiryuushotenha.
Besides, the series is called Ranma 1/2 for a reason. Ranma is the best
martial artist of his generation. Others may be more powerful (Herb),
tougher (Lime, Ryouga, Pantsutarou), and maybe even stronger (Lime,
Pantsutarou). But Ranma is smarter than the rest, improvises better, has
more options at any given point, and can out-think 99% of them (not hard
given that it is Ranma 1/2 and a comedy). He knows more moves, and he'll
get them off faster. They can beat him by catching off guard, getting
lucky, or choosing their ground carefully, but otherwise, Ranma will win.
--
Anand Chelian | ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~anandc
"History is made by the few, and wielded over the many."
Puma Twins
>>>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
>>>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
>>>Saffron as Ranma did.
>
>>Lets see Lime go against Ranma would be a better proving point. Unless
>Ranma
>>can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
>
>Ranma already has two. The mokotakabisha and the hiryuushotenha. At the
Neither of which would work. Lime stood up to the HSH and it took a perfect
SSH to knock him out. The mokotakabisha isn't that strong. :p
>worst he could pull off the shishihokodan (which he does know how to do, but
>is rarely depressed enough to pull off). In fact, Ranma can use all sorts
>of ki to power mokotakabisha-style ki attacks (something Ryouga never seemed
>to learn to do).
>
He could do a regular SSH which would have the same results as a Moko
Takabisha, but that wouldn't work for the same reason. He could NOT do a PSSH.
One hit from Lime and it would be all over.
>>The skill thing vs Saffron doesn't matter as much as luck and improvisation
>>which Ranma has and which Ryouga hasn't. Ryouga and Ranma have the same
>amount
>>of Skill (I believe anyway).
>
>Right, sure, skill. Skill has nothing to do with understanding the art well
>enough to improvise using bits and pieces picked up elsewhere I'll bet. I'll
You're reading to much into what I said. I do not dislike Ranma or think he is
weak, but when compared to Saffron, it doesn't matter much.
>get that Ryouga can go up against Ranma without using special attacks and win
>(he hasn't except for a single time in the manga (when he had the stomach
>painting that made him well-nigh invulnerable), the only one that he came
>close to doing it in was the bakusaitenketsu story arc).
>
Umm . . There are many times that Ryouga beat Ranma without special moves. Or
are you only talking of the major fights that had to be won by Ranma since he's
the main character? Then again Ranma always uses the Amaguriken. Doesn't that
count as a special attack? I guess not. :)
>It's just that Ranma's better at improvising. If
>>he doesn't do it well enough, he gets crushed (SSH) if he does do a good
>job,
>>he wins (BP)
>
>The shishihokodan story arc is interesting in that Ranma was the one
>attacking. This meant that Ranma could not use some of his really cool
>defensive techniques, like the hiryuushotenha.
>
True enough, also Ryouga wasn't angery, just depressed . . . even that took a
while when Ranma showed up in his girl form to try and learn the move.
>Besides, the series is called Ranma 1/2 for a reason. Ranma is the best
>martial artist of his generation. Others may be more powerful (Herb),
>tougher (Lime, Ryouga, Pantsutarou), and maybe even stronger (Lime,
>Pantsutarou). But Ranma is smarter than the rest,
Smart? Ranma? I'm sorry, you've got the wrong series. :)
> improvises better, has
Exactly what I said. He's no slouch in the skill area, but it's the
improvising that pushes him above Ryouga most of the time.
>more options at any given point, and can out-think 99% of them (not hard
>given that it is Ranma 1/2 and a comedy).
In fighting maybe, which goes along with that improvising thing. Regular
school type thinking . . . well, lets not say anything. True he's smarter than
Ryouga, but that's not saying much. Especially since for all we know Ryouga has
not gone to school since middle school while Ranma is currently in High School.
:)
> He knows more moves, and he'll
>get them off faster.
Vs Ryouga? Yes, because he is faster. Vs Tarou and Mint? Nope, not quite
fast enough my friend. Also, many characters have more moves (Mousse, Herb,
Tarou, etc . . .)
> They can beat him by catching off guard, getting
>lucky, or choosing their ground carefully,
Otherwise, Ranma will do the same thing to them. It's tactics and stragety.
If you put both of them in a neutral place, it will be a pretty even match.
That's the point.
> but otherwise, Ranma will win.
Only some of the time.
Frank Wustner
I don't care to argue any of that. Be all of it as it
may, my initial comment (that got snipped) stands. Just
because Ryoga usually won does not convince me. As I
have been told by many karate instructors, white belts
can beat black belts if they study the forms. But just
because the white belt wins does not make him/her better
than the black belt.
Aaron Peori
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> In article <19990829034020...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
> Puma Twins <puma...@aol.communist> wrote:
>
> >>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
> >>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
> >>Saffron as Ranma did.
If you gave Ryouga the Gekkaja and the help of Akane-doll
I'd bet he'd do at -least- as well as Ranma did. Heck, he
may have done -better-. The only reason Ranma lasted as logn
as he did was because he was protected.
The only advantage that Ranma had was that he knew the HSH,
which had a variant that could defeat Saffron (the Hiryu
Houu Toppa). But that isn't amazing on Ranma's part. That
just means that Saffron was designed so that Ranma could
eventually beat him.
The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
> >Lets see Lime go against Ranma would be a better proving point. Unless Ranma
> >can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
> Ranma already has two. The mokotakabisha and the hiryuushotenha.
Uh... no. Not a chance. Not a chance in hell.
Ranma used the Hiryushotenha on Herb, creating a tornado
MORE POWERFUL than most he has used. Lime was caught in
this. Lime didn't even -feel- it. As for the
Mokotakabisha... this would hardly have enough damage to
hurt Lime, no more than a regular Shishihokodan would. Ranma
might do a bit of damage with it, but Lime would catch him
and Lime would do more damage than Ranma could survive with
one hit (one strike nearly KO'd Ryouga, who is much tougher
than Ranma). Of course, Lime would never -hit- Ranma... so
this would be a LONG match. Eventually Ranma MIGHT wear him
down.
> At the
> worst he could pull off the shishihokodan (which he does know how to do, but
> is rarely depressed enough to pull off). In fact, Ranma can use all sorts
> of ki to power mokotakabisha-style ki attacks (something Ryouga never seemed
> to learn to do).
Ranma can not use the Shishihokodan as well as Ryouga.
> Right, sure, skill. Skill has nothing to do with understanding the
> art well enough to improvise using bits and pieces picked up elsewhere
One thing I love to point out for this whole illusion that
"Ranma is the greatest improviser on earth" thing is this.
In the Herb story Ranma fought Herb FOUR times. Each time he
was taken down (or trapped by) the SAME TECHNIQUE. In fact,
Ranma learned the secret OF this technique. Ranma was, even
armed with this knowledge -never- able to counter it.
In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
In their next fight Ryouga -changes tactics- and is winning
until Mousse screws him up.
Also, it took roughly a week to learn the Amaguriken. It
took Ryouga roughly the same time to learn the
Bakusaitenketsu. It took Ranma the same amount of time to
figure out the Mokotakbisha as it took Ryouga to figure out
the "perfect" Shishihokodan.
In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
> I'll bet. I'll get that Ryouga can go up against Ranma without using > special attacks and win (he hasn't except for a single time in the
> manga (when he had the stomach painting that made him well-nigh
> invulnerable), the only one that he came close to doing it in was the
> bakusaitenketsu story arc).
Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday. In
fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
than Ranma does.
> Besides, the series is called Ranma 1/2 for a reason. Ranma is the
> best martial artist of his generation.
Excuse me while I laugh my head off.
> Others may be more powerful (Herb), tougher (Lime, Ryouga,
> Pantsutarou), and maybe even stronger (Lime, Pantsutarou). But Ranma > is smarter than the rest, improvises better, has more options at any
> given point, and can out-think 99% of them (not hard given that it is
> Ranma 1/2 and a comedy). He knows more moves, and he'll
> get them off faster. They can beat him by catching off guard, getting
> lucky, or choosing their ground carefully, but otherwise, Ranma will
> win.
Oh this is so wrong and misguided it hurts.
Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
hardly even the best among the normal people around the
series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
twice.
Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
not just in battle).
Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
plot oriented position. He also is not as good as Tarou. I
thought this was put to rest long ago. Tarou simply
outsmarts Ranma on every level. Ranma has only -once- ever
managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
other people. In their human on human fights Tarou has
outmanuveured him in every engagement. Against Ryuu he was
using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
style. And he STILL almost got himself killed. Herb knows
MUCH more about ki than Ranma and has more special
techniques avilable. I'd like to see you say how Ranma would
do in a re-match with him, since it is doubtful Herb could
fall for the Hiryu Kourin Dan a second time.
And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
machinae finish with. Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
Against Herb he wouldn't be able to use the Hiryu Kourin Dan
because Herb wouldn't fall for it a second time now that he
knows it exists. Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
second match (at best, it was a double KO). Against
Saffron... well, he wouldn't stand a chance.
The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
advantage that means he will. In the Pheonix arc this is
obvious, it's the Gekkaja and Akane's help. In other stories
it's other things. In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken. In
the Tarou story it's the assitance of four allies (Ryouga,
Mousse, Shampoo and Akane... unless you mean to say Ranam
could have used the "Pantyhose Shooting Star Kick" without
Akane's help?) and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
well, so they don't realy face off. Against Herb he would
have -died- if Ryouga AND Mousse had not saved his life on
several occasions and if those two had not helped him win.
The list goes on and on.
Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
are staked in his favor because he is the star.
------------------
Epsilon
Blade
see...@for.email.com says...
>(snip all)
>
>I don't care to argue any of that. Be all of it as it
>may, my initial comment (that got snipped) stands. Just
>because Ryoga usually won does not convince me. As I
>have been told by many karate instructors, white belts
>can beat black belts if they study the forms. But just
>because the white belt wins does not make him/her better
>than the black belt.
Ryouga has learned new skills at rates comparable to or faster than Ranma.
Ryouga has directly outsmarted and outmanouvred Ranma in combat.
Ryouga has demonstrated better adaptation than Ranma.
Ryouga has beaten Ranma cleanly in one on one, hand to hand combat, despite
having no particular physical advantage on Ranma; indeed, defeated him once in a
setting where Ranma had the clear advantage.
If you will not admit that Ryouga is the better martial artist, it is because
you don't WANT to admit it, not because the evidence is not both present and
clear. Bury your head in the sand if you like.
Blade
Blade
>In article <19990829034020...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
>Puma Twins <puma...@aol.communist> wrote:
>>>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
>>>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
>>>Saffron as Ranma did.
>
>>can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
>
>worst he could pull off the shishihokodan (which he does know how to do, but
>is rarely depressed enough to pull off). In fact, Ranma can use all sorts
None of which are powerful enough to hurt Lime, as is shown in the STORY, for
pity's sake. Ranma's only chance is to wear him down and not get hit, exactly
the same as Ryouga was doing. And, like Ryouga, he would probably succeed.
>of ki to power mokotakabisha-style ki attacks (something Ryouga never seemed
>to learn to do).
The mokotakabisha uses confidence "ki", not real ki. As such, it is fairly
inflexible.
>>The skill thing vs Saffron doesn't matter as much as luck and improvisation
>>which Ranma has and which Ryouga hasn't. Ryouga and Ranma have the same amount
>>of Skill (I believe anyway).
>
>Right, sure, skill. Skill has nothing to do with understanding the art well
>enough to improvise using bits and pieces picked up elsewhere I'll bet. I'll
Of course it does. Do you think any martial artist could create the Moko
Takabisha? Or all his Hiryuu Shoten Ha varients? Ranma's skill at adapting his
martial arts is the one shining advantage he DOES have over many people.
Not enough to make him the best in the series, or even close, but it's enough to
put him where he is.
>get that Ryouga can go up against Ranma without using special attacks and win
>(he hasn't except for a single time in the manga (when he had the stomach
>painting that made him well-nigh invulnerable), the only one that he came
>close to doing it in was the bakusaitenketsu story arc).
>
>It's just that Ranma's better at improvising. If
>>he doesn't do it well enough, he gets crushed (SSH) if he does do a good job,
>>he wins (BP)
>
>The shishihokodan story arc is interesting in that Ranma was the one
>attacking. This meant that Ranma could not use some of his really cool
>defensive techniques, like the hiryuushotenha.
Not that it would have worked if he'd tried.
>Besides, the series is called Ranma 1/2 for a reason. Ranma is the best
>martial artist of his generation. Others may be more powerful (Herb),
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
>tougher (Lime, Ryouga, Pantsutarou), and maybe even stronger (Lime,
>Pantsutarou). But Ranma is smarter than the rest, improvises better, has
>more options at any given point, and can out-think 99% of them (not hard
>given that it is Ranma 1/2 and a comedy). He knows more moves, and he'll
>get them off faster. They can beat him by catching off guard, getting
>lucky, or choosing their ground carefully, but otherwise, Ranma will win.
Well, that's the biggest load of Ranma-worshipping bullshit I've heard in a long
time.
Ranma isn't smart. He does improvise better than MOST people, but he's not that
smart. Nor is he the best improvisor around.
In the Herb story, Ranma continuously makes the same STUPID mistake in fighting
Herb, which gets him beaten easily twice, and then crushed in a single blow at
the beginning of the "real" fight.
In the same story, Ryouga, in his second fight with Lime, adapts his tactics and
is beating Lime until Mousse interferes.
Ranma is continuously taken down by the Dragon Spirit Ascension Soar. Even when
he knows how it works, Herb STILL hits him with it, because Ranma has no clue
how to defend against it. Herb could have just done that move over and over to
beat Ranma, if he so desired.
To say nothing of the fact Ranma's life is saved twice from Herb; both times he
is by his own admission unable to save himself. So much for the "best martial
artist of his generation". Herb is obviously, clearly, and vastly superior to
him.
Next up, Tarou. Do I really need to get into excruciating detail here? Tarou
has beaten or tied with Ranma in every one on one combat they've ever had, and
more often it's the former. In Volume 18, Tarou pounded Ranma into a bloody
pulp over a space of several minutes by outmanouvreing and outsmarting him, and
all of Ranma's fabled adapatational abilities didn't help him at all.
To say nothing of the fact that Tarou decisively beat Ranma in Volume 23, twice,
including the second time when RANMA, not Tarou, chose the ground to fight on.
Tarou is obviously, clearly, and vastly superior to Ranma.
And then there's Ryouga, who has, as has been described to death, beaten Ranma
time and time again, and in ALL their later fights. Including their last fight
in Volume 23, where again, Ranma had the battlefield advantage, but Ryouga
improvised faster than Ranma and won.
Ryouga is not vastly superior to Ranma, but he is clearly better.
Let's not even get into Saffron (although I suppose he could hardly be
considered to be in "Ranma's generation").
The fact is, Ranma's good, but he's hardly the best among his age group or in
the series as a whole. He's high-level, but not top-level. Unless he has the
odds greatly stacked in -his- favour, every one of the top ten fighters will
beat him every time. And so they do, in the manga.
Blade
Matthew Campbell
> (snip all)
>
> I don't care to argue any of that. Be all of it as it
> may, my initial comment (that got snipped) stands. Just
> because Ryoga usually won does not convince me. As I
> have been told by many karate instructors, white belts
> can beat black belts if they study the forms. But just
> because the white belt wins does not make him/her better
> than the black belt.
>
Well you seem to be missing something here. If you say that victory
doesn't prove greater skill, then what _would_ you say shows greater
skill?
Aaron has already demonstrated that Ryouga's improvisational skill and
understanding of martial arts equal that of Ranma.
------
Matthew Campbell
Matthew Campbell
Matthew Campbell
Matthew Campbell
HKMiller
> Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
> He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
> are staked in his favor because he is the star.
I'm not sure I entirely follow this statement. What, exactly,
is the difference? You are saying that Takahashi has
constructed the Ranmaverse so that Ranma wins. Evaluations
of "better" _have_ to be in the context of the Ranmaverse; no
other evaluation makes any sense. So what does it matter
whether Ranma wins by a +20 on skill or a +20 on luck?
As you say, he still wins.
Aaron Peori
>
> Epsilon wrote:
>
> > Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
> > He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
> > are staked in his favor because he is the star.
>
> is the difference? You are saying that Takahashi has
> constructed the Ranmaverse so that Ranma wins. Evaluations
> of "better" _have_ to be in the context of the Ranmaverse; no
> other evaluation makes any sense. So what does it matter
> whether Ranma wins by a +20 on skill or a +20 on luck?
> As you say, he still wins.
No, that isn't what I'm saying at all. First off, even IN
the Ranma universe he often loses. Even in final fights
(Love Koi story, second and third Tarou appearance) and so
on.
The fact is, that Ranma defeated Saffron because he had the
Gekkaja. That does not make him a better -fighter- than
Saffron.
This is like saying -I- could be a better fighter than Ranma
if I had access to the Ultimate Nullfier. Simply doens't
work. Ranma is LUCKY, but not the best fighter. Luck, in the
Ranma universe, is a very fickle mistress and has failed to
save him on numerous occasions.
---------------
Epsilon
Puma Twins
>No, that isn't what I'm saying at all. First off, even IN
>the Ranma universe he often loses. Even in final fights
>(Love Koi story, second and third Tarou appearance) and so
>on.
>
>The fact is, that Ranma defeated Saffron because he had the
>Gekkaja. That does not make him a better -fighter- than
>Saffron.
>
>This is like saying -I- could be a better fighter than Ranma
>if I had access to the Ultimate Nullfier. Simply doens't
>work. Ranma is LUCKY, but not the best fighter. Luck, in the
>Ranma universe, is a very fickle mistress and has failed to
>save him on numerous occasions.
Ultimate Nullifier? Wouldn't a Battle Dougi have bee more in context. ;)
We wouldn't want the Thing going in there and clobbering Lime now would we :)
Anand Chelian
Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Okay, I have to debunk alomost all of this.
>
>Anand Chelian wrote:
>>
>> In article <19990829034020...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
>> Puma Twins <puma...@aol.communist> wrote:
>> >>Just because Ryoga wins does not mean that he is more
>> >>skilled than Ranma. Period. Let's see Ryoga go against
>> >>Saffron as Ranma did.
>
>If you gave Ryouga the Gekkaja and the help of Akane-doll
>I'd bet he'd do at -least- as well as Ranma did. Heck, he
>may have done -better-. The only reason Ranma lasted as logn
>as he did was because he was protected.
I don't think so... Ryouga isn't as good as Ranma is in the
air. In fact, how often have you seen Ryouga fighting in the
air. Ryouga is mostly a ground fighter.
>The only advantage that Ranma had was that he knew the HSH,
>which had a variant that could defeat Saffron (the Hiryu
>Houu Toppa). But that isn't amazing on Ranma's part. That
>just means that Saffron was designed so that Ranma could
>eventually beat him.
Oh? And Ryouga never has any such advantages. After all, Lime
had him beat, but Ryouga had his whole angsty depression thing
and pulled off a SSH that just happened to be able to take down
Lime for the 5 minutes Ryouga needed to get away.
BTW, the move is the Hi Ryuu Ko Rin Dan.
>The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
>good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
>> >Lets see Lime go against Ranma would be a better proving point. Unless Ranma
>> >can find a attack to hurt that bull, he's SOL. :)
>> Ranma already has two. The mokotakabisha and the hiryuushotenha.
>Uh... no. Not a chance. Not a chance in hell.
Nice to see you are so confident.
>Ranma used the Hiryushotenha on Herb, creating a tornado
>MORE POWERFUL than most he has used. Lime was caught in
>this. Lime didn't even -feel- it. As for the
>Mokotakabisha... this would hardly have enough damage to
>hurt Lime, no more than a regular Shishihokodan would. Ranma
>might do a bit of damage with it, but Lime would catch him
>and Lime would do more damage than Ranma could survive with
>one hit (one strike nearly KO'd Ryouga, who is much tougher
>than Ranma). Of course, Lime would never -hit- Ranma... so
>this would be a LONG match. Eventually Ranma MIGHT wear him
>down.
You know Ranma couldn't hurt Pantsutaro in monster form the
first couple of times he met him. Amazingly, Ranma *improvised*
(pure luck on his part I'm sure) a way to hit Pantsutaro with
a tree trunk enough so that Pantsutaro was hurt the next day for
the final confrontation. That particular tete-a-tete was ended
because Ranma went off a waterfall and couldn't fly.
As for Lime not feeling it, I'll note that the twister doesn't
hurt much if there isn't debris in it, and it is the landing that
hurts most in that case.
Note that soon after this in the manga, Ranma is able to pull off
a double MKTBS against Hinako. Presumably he can put those into
a single blow to do lots of damage.
>> At the
>> worst he could pull off the shishihokodan (which he does know how to do, but
>> is rarely depressed enough to pull off). In fact, Ranma can use all sorts
>> of ki to power mokotakabisha-style ki attacks (something Ryouga never seemed
>> to learn to do).
>Ranma can not use the Shishihokodan as well as Ryouga.
No, there is no proof of that. Ranma doesn't get as depressed as
Ryouga does, that doesn't mean that he cannot use the SSH. It just
means that he's not *usually* as effective as Ryouga is with it. He
knows why Ryouga isn't harmed by the SSH, and he knows how Ryouga
does the perfect SSH. After all, he took 4 blows from it and Ryouga
gets knocked out in two.
>> Right, sure, skill. Skill has nothing to do with understanding the
>> art well enough to improvise using bits and pieces picked up elsewhere
>One thing I love to point out for this whole illusion that
>"Ranma is the greatest improviser on earth" thing is this.
Fine, show where other people have improvised or made up new
moves. I have some of my evidence below.
>In the Herb story Ranma fought Herb FOUR times. Each time he
>was taken down (or trapped by) the SAME TECHNIQUE. In fact,
>Ranma learned the secret OF this technique. Ranma was, even
>armed with this knowledge -never- able to counter it.
First time Ranma was taken down flat. Second time Ranma thought
he had it, but he was wrong and was taken down by it anyway. The
third time I remember was in the big fight sequence when Herb used
it as a finishing move when Ranma wasn't able to fight back very
hard anyway (this hardly counts as being taken down by the same
technique). After that Ranma pulled off the HRSTH, and was nailed
by Herb (and this was a suprise the same way Ryouga was suprised by
Lime). Then Ranma gets up, and (Note: in the same fight) repeats
his HRSTH (or rather a variant thereof), rides the twister, and
comes back down with a new technique that no one had used before.
>In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
Suprise my ass... Ryouga was the one who attacked Lime because
Lime was carrying Akane away. If you mean that Ryouga was
suprised by Lime's strength and toughness then fine.
>In their next fight Ryouga -changes tactics- and is winning
>until Mousse screws him up.
No, Ryouga isn't really winning, he's not losing. Presumably
Ryouga would have set up for some of his more powerful attacks
and worn Lime down just as Ranma would have had to do. Ryouga
then gets nailed, and is dying (TM) when he gets really
depressed and (improvises?, after all Ryouga is better at this
than Ranma is) pulls of a perfect SSH (my, a completely original
and new move).
Besides, if you'd paid attention, he is copying the tactics Ranma
usually uses against him (and we know Ranma has never ever beaten
Ryouga).
>Also, it took roughly a week to learn the Amaguriken. It
>took Ryouga roughly the same time to learn the
>Bakusaitenketsu. It took Ranma the same amount of time to
>figure out the Mokotakbisha as it took Ryouga to figure out
>the "perfect" Shishihokodan.
Yeah, and Ranma had the benefit of scrolls and depression just
like Ryouga did. Ryouga didn't have any help from Akane in
getting depressed. Ranma figured out a new move almost from
scratch in the time it took Ryouga to perfect a move. I guess
you'll have to show me how Ryouga learns faster as you state
below.
>In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
>from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
Really... you know Ranma learned HRSTH in three days (you can look
at the translation if you want). The most of it was learning to
control his emotions, he figured out the basics of the move the
first time he was shown it (hey, Ryouga has done that too, right,
with BSTK, and the SSH -- oh, right, he was taught those two by
other people).
>> I'll bet. I'll get that Ryouga can go up against Ranma without using > special attacks and win (he hasn't except for a single time in the
>> manga (when he had the stomach painting that made him well-nigh
>> invulnerable), the only one that he came close to doing it in was the
>> bakusaitenketsu story arc).
>Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
>must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
>Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
Really? When? It didn't look like Ryouga was pounding Ranma
in the school yard fight, in fact, until Akane got stuck, it
looked like Ranma was comfortably in charge.
Then of course there is the ice rink fight where Ryouga boldly
takes on Ranma after Ranma has been smashed into the rink side by
the Merry-Go-Round of Parting. Then Ranma is in his weaker form
(the one that it turns out that Mousse can beat), and Ryouga is
beating him up. Of course, Akane, being the nice sweet girl that
she is, never intervenes to Ranma's disadvantage. And Ranma is
immobile and incapacitated at the end of it so that Ryouga (as
P-chan) is the one who has to rescue Akane.
Tell me when parts of the above story stop jiving with your
recollection of the fight.
In
>fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
>than Ranma does.
Really... How often has Ranma used a "special" technique against
Ryouga or Mousse? I count the "Saotome Final Technique" (and a
variation of the Amaguri-Ken), and the MKTBS (which was a counter
to the SSH). By contrast, Ryouga learned one of his special
techniques (BSTK) specifically to "beat" Ranma, and one of the few
fights he won against Ranma was when he learned his second special
technique (SSH).
>> Besides, the series is called Ranma 1/2 for a reason. Ranma is the
>> best martial artist of his generation.
>Excuse me while I laugh my head off.
Laugh away, I'm not responsible for your delusions.
>> Others may be more powerful (Herb), tougher (Lime, Ryouga,
>> Pantsutarou), and maybe even stronger (Lime, Pantsutarou). But Ranma > is smarter than the rest, improvises better, has more options at any
>> given point, and can out-think 99% of them (not hard given that it is
>> Ranma 1/2 and a comedy). He knows more moves, and he'll
>> get them off faster. They can beat him by catching off guard, getting
>> lucky, or choosing their ground carefully, but otherwise, Ranma will
>> win.
>Oh this is so wrong and misguided it hurts.
Yeah, your statements below are so wrong and misguided it hurts.
>Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
>hardly even the best among the normal people around the
>series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
>twice.
Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
about Akane?
>Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
>and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
>not just in battle).
Really? When? Ryouga beat Ranma in the SSH story arc, that I'll
grant. You mean the Ryouga who has trouble tricking Ranma into
getting to go to his house while Ranma has fooled Ryouga with a
female guise at least twice?
>Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
>plot oriented position.
Fine, so does Ryouga. It's a story for god's sake man. Everything
happens from a contrived plot oriented position. Your's or
Takahashi's take a pick.
He also is not as good as Tarou. I
>thought this was put to rest long ago. Tarou simply
>outsmarts Ranma on every level.
My god... I remember why I stopped arguing with you.... You have
your head so far up your ass you need glass belt buckles to see.
Ranma has only -once- ever
>managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
>other people.
No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
>In their human on human fights Tarou has
>outmanuveured him in every engagement.
Which ones? I don't remember any. There was the *one* fight on top
of the water mountain where Tarou had a definite advantage because he
had the toughness and mass advantage over Ranma and could force Ranma
to react by stomping on the ground. Ranma knew that he couldn't beat
Tarou in his (Tarou's) cursed form (because that was tougher, stronger,
and could fly) so he had to keep Tarou from transforming. Tarou could
simply stomp on the ground and force Ranma into an unprepared attack,
then he would get a free shot in. Despite that Ranma manages to keep
Tarou on the defensive for quite a while.
I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
Ranma can beat up everybody.
Against Ryuu he was
>using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
>style. And he STILL almost got himself killed.
No, the Umisenken and the Yamasenken are not designed to defeat each
other. They are complimentary styles meant to steal stuff. As for
almost getting himself killed, Ryuu nails him with a spear hand to
the gut, Ranma gets out of that one by putting Ryuu in a strangle
hold with a bath cloth and sliding out of his grasp (countered by
Ranma alone with no help from anyone else). Then Ryuu gets a rope
around Ranma's neck to match what Ranma is already doing, this one
is ended by Tendo Soun cutting both ropes, but note that Ryuu was
being strangulated first and would probably have passed out first;
we shall call it a tie. Ryuu then catches Ranma off guard with the
Kijinraishuudan, but Ranma survives that just fine by himself, and
in fact goes on to defeat Ryuu while Ryuu is using that very same
technique.
Herb knows
>MUCH more about ki than Ranma and has more special
>techniques avilable. I'd like to see you say how Ranma would
>do in a re-match with him, since it is doubtful Herb could
>fall for the Hiryu Kourin Dan a second time.
So? Herb doesn't have an unlimited bag of tricks. What is Herb
going to use that Ranma absolutely will not be able to counter?
Herb is probably the most powerful character in the series apart
from Saffron, and the closest match to Ranma.
>And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
>hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
>machinae finish with.
Neither can Ryouga. Get it through your skull that this is
a story. All fights have deus ex machina finishes.
Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
>use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
>enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
What would he do then? Ranma was winning handily until Ryuu
threw him off guard with the comment about his mother in the
final fight. Ryuu hadn't laid a glove on Ranma before that,
where as Ranma had already pulled off at least two blows
against Ryuu.
>Against Herb he wouldn't be able to use the Hiryu Kourin Dan
>because Herb wouldn't fall for it a second time now that he
>knows it exists.
Okay, and Herb wouldn't be able to use most of his techniques
because Ranma has already seen them and has counters in hand.
So either Herb knows more techniques (out of the scope of this
debate) or he'll tie Ranma again. Of course, Herb starts with
an advantage that he's in his male form against Ranma's female
form. Either way, Herb will have to *suprise* Ranma with a
new techique.
Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
>second match (at best, it was a double KO).
Which second fight? The one where Tarou came back with octopus
tentacles? The one where both Ranma and Tarou were knocked
unconscious until they hit the bath? The one where Tarou comes
back *with a new ability* to fight Ranma.
I'll point out that Ranma was quite able to dodge almost all of
Tarou's blows after that, especially since Tarou lost the element
of suprise with the tentacles and the ink. *Tarou* won by
suprise (but I suppose you'll have some hand-waving for this one
too).
Against
>Saffron... well, he wouldn't stand a chance.
Who knows... Saffron has to grow up again. By that time who
knows where Ranma will be. I grant that Ranma needed the Gekkaja
(or whatever it was) to beat Saffron.
>The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
>the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
>he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
>he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
>his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
>would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
What do they focus on other than Ranma fighting? Ryouga's
fighting? Tarou's fighting?
Get it through your head that this is a romantic comedy first
and a martial arts flick second (a very close second). Of
course most of the story is going to revolve around Ranma and
Akane. IMO, Ranma can take Ryouga 7-8 falls out of 10 unless
Ryouga has just learned a special technique.
If you want a manga centered purely on martial arts then go
after Dragon Ball or Grappler Baki. There you can debate all
you want about who's better.
>Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
>advantage that means he will. In the Pheonix arc this is
>obvious, it's the Gekkaja and Akane's help. In other stories
>it's other things.
I'm sure that Ryouga could have taken Saffron down with absolutely
no help at all. And Tarou could do it with both hands tied behind
his back and in human form.
>In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken.
Of course, Ryuu's knowing the Yamasenken is not an advantage.
I'll note that the final fight was a fight between the two
styles not an open martial arts contest. Ranma was pounding
Ryuu until his mother (or Akane, I can't remember which)
distracts him. Ryuu beats him the second time just flat out
because the Yamasenken is a very unconventional art and lets
Ryuu beat up regular martial artists by suprise. That and
Ryuu is a very good martial artist.
In
>the Tarou story it's the assitance of four allies (Ryouga,
>Mousse, Shampoo and Akane... unless you mean to say Ranam
>could have used the "Pantyhose Shooting Star Kick" without
>Akane's help?)
No he couldn't have. On the other hand Ryouga wasn't winning
against Tarou by himself either. I grant that with all the
advantages Tarou has in his cursed form, Ranma will probably
not be able to beat him in a colesium fight (i.e. closed ring,
no tools or props).
and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
>and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
>well, so they don't realy face off.
That's fine. But you should note that Tarou, other than the
one time on top of his mountain never comes close to beating
Ranma in his uncursed form, and I have the explantation
above. Tarou's cursed form has advantages of toughness, strength,
flight, ink, and extra limbs that Ranma cannot match without
assistance.
Against Herb he would
>have -died- if Ryouga AND Mousse had not saved his life on
>several occasions and if those two had not helped him win.
Of course, Ryouga AND Mousse have nothing to do with almost
getting killed themselves. They don't leave Ranma at a
disadvantage by KO'ing him as a female. Ranma doesn't help
them become male or anything else. Ryouga and Mousse easily
take on Lime, Mint, and Herb, defeating them and leaving
Ranma in the dust. Of course, Herb can't hurt or deal with
Lime or Mint on his own either.
>The list goes on and on.
It sure does doesn't it.
>Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
>He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
>are staked in his favor because he is the star.
Right, in that same way, Ryouga and Tarou will never win
unless the author wants them to. You are not dealing with
objective reality here (that's probably true the rest of the
time as well, but I digress). So let me say it again. In
Rumiko Takahashi's world, Ranma is the best martial artist
because he will win (even if he doesn't win the first match).
Ranma will win because he learns new techniques or makes them
up faster than his opponents can. He is tough and smart (you
know it really takes a lot of brains to pick up on stuff like
Ranma does, he is probably the most intelligent if not the
smartest of the characters in the show), and know how to find
the opponents weak spot.
In your opinion, Ranma is a wimp, and cannot win except by
cheating and attacking people where they aren't good. He would
not be able to beat Gosunkugi with all the special techniques
he is given by the author. Where as, Ryouga, Tarou, etc. never
need special techniques or suprise, and are perfect honorable
and forthright in all their intentions all the time, and always
beat Ranma.
I'll just say that you are welcome to your opinion, but please
don't try to pass it off as gospel. I'll just sit here and
think of you as delusional and fanatic in your protestations.
>Epsilon
Aaron Peori
need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
care to know.
I will try to address your actual points, those few times
you make one.
Anand Chelian wrote:
> >If you gave Ryouga the Gekkaja and the help of Akane-doll
> >I'd bet he'd do at -least- as well as Ranma did. Heck, he
> >may have done -better-. The only reason Ranma lasted as logn
> >as he did was because he was protected.
>
> I don't think so... Ryouga isn't as good as Ranma is in the
> air. In fact, how often have you seen Ryouga fighting in the
> air. Ryouga is mostly a ground fighter.
(ahem)
The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
him into the air. Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
> >The only advantage that Ranma had was that he knew the HSH,
> >which had a variant that could defeat Saffron (the Hiryu
> >Houu Toppa). But that isn't amazing on Ranma's part. That
> >just means that Saffron was designed so that Ranma could
> >eventually beat him.
>
> Oh? And Ryouga never has any such advantages. After all, Lime
> had him beat, but Ryouga had his whole angsty depression thing
> and pulled off a SSH that just happened to be able to take down
> Lime for the 5 minutes Ryouga needed to get away.
No, Ryouga was slowly wearing down Lime up till the point
where Mint smacked him in the back and stunned him long
enough for Lime to get a solid hit in. At that point Ryouga
had all but lost.
> >The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
> >good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
>
> Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
He was loosing the Lime because he was unlucky.
>
> >Uh... no. Not a chance. Not a chance in hell.
>
> Nice to see you are so confident.
I am because I know how the techniques work.
> >Ranma used the Hiryushotenha on Herb, creating a tornado
> >MORE POWERFUL than most he has used. Lime was caught in
> >this. Lime didn't even -feel- it. As for the
> >Mokotakabisha... this would hardly have enough damage to
> >hurt Lime, no more than a regular Shishihokodan would. Ranma
> >might do a bit of damage with it, but Lime would catch him
> >and Lime would do more damage than Ranma could survive with
> >one hit (one strike nearly KO'd Ryouga, who is much tougher
> >than Ranma). Of course, Lime would never -hit- Ranma... so
> >this would be a LONG match. Eventually Ranma MIGHT wear him
> >down.
>
> You know Ranma couldn't hurt Pantsutaro in monster form the
> first couple of times he met him. Amazingly, Ranma *improvised*
> (pure luck on his part I'm sure) a way to hit Pantsutaro with
> a tree trunk enough so that Pantsutaro was hurt the next day for
> the final confrontation. That particular tete-a-tete was ended
> because Ranma went off a waterfall and couldn't fly.
Ranma did a -slight- injury to Tarou. True that match never
went anywhere else but Ranma hardly had a commanding
advantage at that point.
> As for Lime not feeling it, I'll note that the twister doesn't
> hurt much if there isn't debris in it, and it is the landing that
> hurts most in that case.
No, that isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the
funnel of "cold ki" that is trapped inside it, like a
pressure cannon that blasts those inside and is contained
within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado. The wind and
debris and landing do little damage. This is why Herb was
able to become immune to the Hiryushotenha by emitting cold
ki so that he was carried up inside of it.
> Note that soon after this in the manga, Ranma is able to pull off
> a double MKTBS against Hinako. Presumably he can put those into
> a single blow to do lots of damage.
Uh, no. He's just holding a small sphere in both hands.
Presumably these are no more powerful than a regular sphere.
But if you want to count this as a variant...
RYOUGA uses several variant Shishihokodan's in his fight
with Ranma. Not only can he do the regular palm thrust, he
can perform it with an uppercut, a right cross and several
other moves. In other words, Ryouga could concievably use a
Shishihokodan with any form of fighting punch.
> >Ranma can not use the Shishihokodan as well as Ryouga.
>
> No, there is no proof of that. Ranma doesn't get as depressed as
> Ryouga does, that doesn't mean that he cannot use the SSH. It just
> means that he's not *usually* as effective as Ryouga is with it. He
> knows why Ryouga isn't harmed by the SSH, and he knows how Ryouga
> does the perfect SSH. After all, he took 4 blows from it and Ryouga
> gets knocked out in two.
That is exactly the proof. In Ranma worst moments (like when
he thinks Akane is dead) he is not as depressed as Ryouga is
in his worst moments (like when he thinks he is dead).
Proof is in the pudding, as they say.
> >One thing I love to point out for this whole illusion that
> >"Ranma is the greatest improviser on earth" thing is this.
>
> Fine, show where other people have improvised or made up new
> moves. I have some of my evidence below.
Ryouga has improvised new Shishihokodan's in mid-fight with
Ranma in their first re-match in the SHD story. Ryuu has
performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
Kijin Raishu Dan. He has also came up with a variant of his
Golden Rope Binding Soar (forget the Japanese) which allowed
him to spin it over his head and snap it in place around
Ranma's neck and multiple other variants on his moves in
that fight. Tarou doesn't USE special techniques but in
monster form was easily able to adapt his ink-shooting
ability to block a stream of hot water. Ryouga adapted the
Bakusaitenketsu from a move which directly attacks the
opponent to an attack meant to send a shower of rocks at his
enemy. He also changed the move so that instead of producing
a fine shower of shards he could create a blast of giant
stones. Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
blocking shield. Tarou easily inverts one of Ranma's more
painful looking holds to escape it. The list goes on and
on...
> >In the Herb story Ranma fought Herb FOUR times. Each time he
> >was taken down (or trapped by) the SAME TECHNIQUE. In fact,
> >Ranma learned the secret OF this technique. Ranma was, even
> >armed with this knowledge -never- able to counter it.
>
> First time Ranma was taken down flat. Second time Ranma thought
> he had it, but he was wrong and was taken down by it anyway. The
> third time I remember was in the big fight sequence when Herb used
> it as a finishing move when Ranma wasn't able to fight back very
> hard anyway (this hardly counts as being taken down by the same
> technique). After that Ranma pulled off the HRSTH, and was nailed
> by Herb (and this was a suprise the same way Ryouga was suprised by
> Lime). Then Ranma gets up, and (Note: in the same fight) repeats
> his HRSTH (or rather a variant thereof), rides the twister, and
> comes back down with a new technique that no one had used before.
Herb used the technique once in their final fight. It took
down Ranma easily. After that he never used it again,
prefering to try a variety of more lethal techniques such as
the Hitou Ryuzan Ha and so on. This is how Ranma got the
opportunity to use the HSH. If Herb had stuck to the tactic
of using only that move, Ranma would have had no counter to
it.
> >In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
>
> Suprise my ass... Ryouga was the one who attacked Lime because
> Lime was carrying Akane away. If you mean that Ryouga was
> suprised by Lime's strength and toughness then fine.
This is what I mean yes. I will conceede that fights in
which you have no clue what your opponent is capable of will
often turn out one-sided.
> >In their next fight Ryouga -changes tactics- and is winning
> >until Mousse screws him up.
>
> No, Ryouga isn't really winning, he's not losing. Presumably
> Ryouga would have set up for some of his more powerful attacks
> and worn Lime down just as Ranma would have had to do.
Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
no superhuman healing factor after all.
> Besides, if you'd paid attention, he is copying the tactics Ranma
> usually uses against him (and we know Ranma has never ever beaten
> Ryouga).
So? This only proves that Ryouga can learn and adapt from
the styles his opponents use against him.
> >Also, it took roughly a week to learn the Amaguriken. It
> >took Ryouga roughly the same time to learn the
> >Bakusaitenketsu. It took Ranma the same amount of time to
> >figure out the Mokotakbisha as it took Ryouga to figure out
> >the "perfect" Shishihokodan.
>
> Yeah, and Ranma had the benefit of scrolls and depression just
> like Ryouga did. Ryouga didn't have any help from Akane in
> getting depressed. Ranma figured out a new move almost from
> scratch in the time it took Ryouga to perfect a move. I guess
> you'll have to show me how Ryouga learns faster as you state
> below.
I'm sure that arrow was a big help to Ryouga. Ryouga asked
for Akane's help, that was the trigger of the move. He still
figured out the trigger himself. Also note that that scroll
did NOT talk about a combat technique. In fact, it is
specifically stated that the SHD is not a combat technique
originally and that Ryouga had to "revise" it in order to
make it combat worthy. So really all that scroll said was
"get depressed."
> >In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
> >from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
>
> Really... you know Ranma learned HRSTH in three days (you can look
> at the translation if you want). The most of it was learning to
> control his emotions, he figured out the basics of the move the
> first time he was shown it (hey, Ryouga has done that too, right,
> with BSTK, and the SSH -- oh, right, he was taught those two by
> other people).
Actually, Ranma didn't figure out the basics of the move. He
figured out the spiral pattern, but not how it worked or how
to set it off. The fact he used it the first time he did was
a fluke. ;p He still had plenty of help from Cologne
however.
As for the three days thing... well Ryouga has only ever
learned two "specials" so he have no third special from
around the same time to compare the two at.
Also remember, that special moves are NOT the be all and end
all of Ranma martial arts. They are like a punch or a kick,
useful, but knowing how to use one or the other when your
opponent doens't will not gaurentee your victory.
> >Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
> >must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
> >Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
>
> Really? When? It didn't look like Ryouga was pounding Ranma
> in the school yard fight, in fact, until Akane got stuck, it
> looked like Ranma was comfortably in charge.
?
When did Ranma KO Ryouga in that fight? Ryouga was not
exactly pounding Ranma around, but then again, he wasn't
easily putmanuevering Ranma. That match seemed pretty even
really.
> Then of course there is the ice rink fight where Ryouga boldly
> takes on Ranma after Ranma has been smashed into the rink side by
> the Merry-Go-Round of Parting.
You forget Ranma's well-documented healing factor. For a
look at that check out the Tarou fight in volume 18. Tarou
takes an injury and a night later it hasn't healed. He then
give Ranma the same injury. In MINUTES Ranma has healed,
while Tarou is still injured.
Also, you only state those points salient to your position.
The match-up situation was:
1) Ranma has taken one Merry-go-round attack. Not a big
factor as he was healed mostly by the time that fight
started.
2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
3) Ranma has learned how to skate, Ryouga has not.
4) Ryouga was, essentially, fighting -three- people, not
just Ranma.
5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
6) Akane was interfering, but her interference could have
been inhibitng to both. She just threw a chunk of ice, not
at ranma in particular.
> Then Ranma is in his weaker form
> (the one that it turns out that Mousse can beat), and Ryouga is
> beating him up.
When, exactly, did Mousse beat it? As far as I recall, Ranma
outmanuevered and defeated Mousse in that fight.
> In
> >fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
> >than Ranma does.
>
> Really... How often has Ranma used a "special" technique against
> Ryouga or Mousse?
Ranma uses the Amaguriken everytime he fights. He doens't
-shout- Amaguriken however, but there are several times
against both that he uses the "blurred fist" attack.
> I count the "Saotome Final Technique" (and a
> variation of the Amaguri-Ken), and the MKTBS (which was a counter
> to the SSH). By contrast, Ryouga learned one of his special
> techniques (BSTK) specifically to "beat" Ranma, and one of the few
> fights he won against Ranma was when he learned his second special
> technique (SSH).
Ryouga learned that technique ONLY when Ranma had learned
the Amaguriken. By this token, Ranma learned the Amaguriken
only to get the Pheonix Pill from Cologne. He also learned
the Shishihokodan and had no intention of challngeing Ranma
with it seriously, he only wanted to try it out and see how
well he had adapted it. It was only when Ranma insisted on
fighting him that Ryouga turned it into a slugfest.
Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
a bit by surprise. Later, Ranma attacks but Ryouga deflects
and beats him without a "special" attack.
> >Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
> >hardly even the best among the normal people around the
> >series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
> >twice.
>
> Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
> about Akane?
Ryouga, Konatsu and a few others are regulars that are
better than him.
Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
generation. He is a fighter that only comes about once every
thousand years. No claims to that effect were ever made
about Ranma. (Of course, Konatsu can reverse time and create
body doubles of himself and other things that not even
-HERB- showed himself able to do...)
Also stop putting words in mouth. I claimed no such things.
> >Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
> >and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
> >not just in battle).
>
> Really? When? Ryouga beat Ranma in the SSH story arc, that I'll
> grant. You mean the Ryouga who has trouble tricking Ranma into
> getting to go to his house while Ranma has fooled Ryouga with a
> female guise at least twice?
The "Magic Soap" storyline contains some examples. In the
Bakusaitenketsu story after Ranma uses the "block" Ryouga
tricks him into blocking again so that he can headbutt
Ranma. The the Love Koi story he outsmarts Ranma on multiple
occasions. Need I go on?
> >Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
> >plot oriented position.
>
> Fine, so does Ryouga. It's a story for god's sake man. Everything
> happens from a contrived plot oriented position. Your's or
> Takahashi's take a pick.
A yes, "Ranma will win because he will", the last defense.
Frankly, I can't agrue with that logic. I'll merelt point
out that it is circular, thus flawed, thus inadmissable.
> Ranma has only -once- ever
> >managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
> >other people.
>
> No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
> fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
Tarou doesn't have Ranma's healing factor, and the shot
which KO'd him hit him in roughly the same spot. I think
that counts. Also, he won with the help of Akane, which
means he -didn't- win on his own, which proves my point.
> >In their human on human fights Tarou has
> >outmanuveured him in every engagement.
>
> Which ones?
There are four times Tarou and Ranma have faced off or been
in comparable situations in human on human fights. First was
their first meeting, but in that no clear victor or superior
fighter was clear. Second was on the cliffside. Here Tarou
cheats outrageously (yes, I admit it) HOWEVER he does
demonstrate that he is much faster and smarter than Ranma
anyway. Third is in the same volume, where Happousai goes
monster and attacks Tarou in human form. Tarou takes a hit
but isn't KO'd, which is more than Ranma has ever done.
Fourth is in Ashura story, where Ashura blasts both Ranma
and Tarou (and was aiming for Tarou so presumably he took
the brunt of the blast) and Ranma gets KO'd while Tarou is
still screaming defiance. Also in that story Tarou KO's
Ranma with two moves (kick into air and smash with barbell)
(Snip description of second fight) D
> Despite that Ranma manages to keep Tarou on the defensive for quite a > while.
Tarou was winning on the defensive.
It is a fallacy of tactical thinking to presume you can't
win on the defensive.
> I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
> writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
> take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
> his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
> beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
> broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
> form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
> Ranma can beat up everybody.
...
This is...
This is...
Utterly insignificant.
Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks). Secondly, do not
presume to judge Ranma and Senchi (said evil half of Ranma)
as the same. They aren't. Trust me.
> Against Ryuu he was
> >using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
> >style. And he STILL almost got himself killed.
>
> No, the Umisenken and the Yamasenken are not designed to defeat each
> other.
Uh-huh. This explains why the Umisenken has the following
moves.
1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
in a rope while.
2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
little more.
3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
countermove for the Yamasenken.
> Herb knows
> >MUCH more about ki than Ranma and has more special
> >techniques avilable. I'd like to see you say how Ranma would
> >do in a re-match with him, since it is doubtful Herb could
> >fall for the Hiryu Kourin Dan a second time.
>
> So? Herb doesn't have an unlimited bag of tricks. What is Herb
> going to use that Ranma absolutely will not be able to counter?
The Dragon Spirit Acension Soar? Ranma never showed any
ability to counter that... ever.
> Herb is probably the most powerful character in the series apart
> from Saffron, and the closest match to Ranma.
No. That would be Cologne (that is best next to Saffron).
Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
> >And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
> >hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
> >machinae finish with.
>
> Neither can Ryouga. Get it through your skull that this is
> a story. All fights have deus ex machina finishes.
No, not all of them. Some have endings that make sense based
on the skills of both fighters.
> Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
> >use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
> >enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
>
> What would he do then? Ranma was winning handily until Ryuu
> threw him off guard with the comment about his mother in the
> final fight. Ryuu hadn't laid a glove on Ranma before that,
> where as Ranma had already pulled off at least two blows
> against Ryuu.
Both of which (and here is the clincher) DIDN'T SLOW RYUU
DOWN. Ryuu is the thrid toughest (physically) character in
the manga (and the other two aren't human). He just needs
-time- to catch Ranma.
> >Against Herb he wouldn't be able to use the Hiryu Kourin Dan
> >because Herb wouldn't fall for it a second time now that he
> >knows it exists.
>
> Okay, and Herb wouldn't be able to use most of his techniques
> because Ranma has already seen them and has counters in hand.
Ranma never created counters to most of Herb's attacks. He
only dodged them. And Herb would just have to be careful not
to let ranma lure him into another Hiryu Kourin Dan atatck,
since that is (and here is the clincher) the ONLY decent
move Ranma landed in that fight.
> Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
> >second match (at best, it was a double KO).
>
> Which second fight? The one where Tarou came back with octopus
> tentacles? The one where both Ranma and Tarou were knocked
> unconscious until they hit the bath?
Tarou recovered before then, he was just unable to fly what
with his wings and tentecales stuck inside a concrete tube.
> I'll point out that Ranma was quite able to dodge almost all of
> Tarou's blows after that, especially since Tarou lost the element
> of suprise with the tentacles and the ink. *Tarou* won by
> suprise (but I suppose you'll have some hand-waving for this one
> too).
Ranma still has nothing that could have -hurt- Tarou.
Eventually, he'd tire and slow down...
> >The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
> >the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
> >he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
> >he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
> >his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
> >would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
>
> What do they focus on other than Ranma fighting? Ryouga's
> fighting? Tarou's fighting?
Ukyou fighting.
Akane fighting.
Try again please.
> Get it through your head that this is a romantic comedy first
> and a martial arts flick second (a very close second). Of
> course most of the story is going to revolve around Ranma and
> Akane. IMO, Ranma can take Ryouga 7-8 falls out of 10 unless
> Ryouga has just learned a special technique.
Your entitled to your opinion. Mine is supported by most of
the fact however.
> >Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
> >advantage that means he will. In the Pheonix arc this is
> >obvious, it's the Gekkaja and Akane's help. In other stories
> >it's other things.
>
> I'm sure that Ryouga could have taken Saffron down with absolutely
> no help at all. And Tarou could do it with both hands tied behind
> his back and in human form.
I never claimed either.
> >In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken.
>
> Of course, Ryuu's knowing the Yamasenken is not an advantage.
> I'll note that the final fight was a fight between the two
> styles not an open martial arts contest. Ranma was pounding
> Ryuu until his mother (or Akane, I can't remember which)
> distracts him. Ryuu beats him the second time just flat out
> because the Yamasenken is a very unconventional art and lets
> Ryuu beat up regular martial artists by suprise. That and
> Ryuu is a very good martial artist.
The difference is that Yamasenken is a powerful art, while
Umisenken is a counter-style to it. It is designed to -beat-
it, that is why it is called "the superior art".
> In
> >the Tarou story it's the assitance of four allies (Ryouga,
> >Mousse, Shampoo and Akane... unless you mean to say Ranam
> >could have used the "Pantyhose Shooting Star Kick" without
> >Akane's help?)
>
> No he couldn't have. On the other hand Ryouga wasn't winning
> against Tarou by himself either.
No, but Ryouga was able to HURT tarou-Bakemono with his -own
strength-, something Ranma was not able to do.
> and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
> >and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
> >well, so they don't realy face off.
>
> That's fine. But you should note that Tarou, other than the
> one time on top of his mountain never comes close to beating
> Ranma in his uncursed form, and I have the explantation
> above.
Unless you count the time he KO'd ranma with two blows?
> Against Herb he would
> >have -died- if Ryouga AND Mousse had not saved his life on
> >several occasions and if those two had not helped him win.
>
> Of course, Ryouga AND Mousse have nothing to do with almost
> getting killed themselves. They don't leave Ranma at a
> disadvantage by KO'ing him as a female.
Huh? That happened hours before the fight between Ranma and
Herb!
> Ranma doesn't help
> them become male or anything else. Ryouga and Mousse easily
> take on Lime, Mint, and Herb, defeating them and leaving
> Ranma in the dust. Of course, Herb can't hurt or deal with
> Lime or Mint on his own either.
Your sarcasm leaves me speechless. I conceed that Ryouga is
not, single-handedly, apble to beat every single member of
the cast at once and that he never, at any point managed to
do a Kamehameha. This, of course, means that Ryouga can't
POSSIBLY be better than Ranma. Because we known that ranma
HAS done these things ne?
(snort)
> >Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
> >He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
> >are staked in his favor because he is the star.
>
> Right, in that same way, Ryouga and Tarou will never win
> unless the author wants them to. You are not dealing with
> objective reality here (that's probably true the rest of the
> time as well, but I digress). So let me say it again. In
> Rumiko Takahashi's world, Ranma is the best martial artist
> because he will win (even if he doesn't win the first match).
I don't known about you, but in a match of two out of three
falls, the guy who gets two falls wins over the guy who gets
one.
<snip Ranma worhip>
> In your opinion, Ranma is a wimp, and cannot win except by
> cheating and attacking people where they aren't good.
No, this is NOT my opinion. There are several people I
believe that Ranma could defeat. In fact, their are quite a
few. This list includes Ukyou, Mousse, Kunou, Mint, Lime,
Koruma, Masara, Mariko, Lukkosai and on and on and on. I
just don't believe that he is infallible and that he will
always win.
> He would
> not be able to beat Gosunkugi with all the special techniques
> he is given by the author. Where as, Ryouga, Tarou, etc. never
> need special techniques or suprise, and are perfect honorable
> and forthright in all their intentions all the time, and always
> beat Ranma.
...
Huh?
I never claimed this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
> I'll just say that you are welcome to your opinion, but please
> don't try to pass it off as gospel. I'll just sit here and
> think of you as delusional and fanatic in your protestations.
Okay, you're entitled. But we can keep this at least a
little civil ne?
-------------
Epsilon
Hunter Kid
>Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
>need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
>Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
>logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
>care to know.
You mean you aren't used to this kind of thing by now? ;p
>> I don't think so... Ryouga isn't as good as Ranma is in the
>> air. In fact, how often have you seen Ryouga fighting in the
>> air. Ryouga is mostly a ground fighter.
>
>The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
>used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
>him into the air. Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
>thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
>counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
>happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
>to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
>bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
>Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
It's also worthwhile to note that, in a typical fight, going into the
air is about the worst move you can possibly make.
>Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
>called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
>generation. He is a fighter that only comes about once every
>thousand years. No claims to that effect were ever made
>about Ranma. (Of course, Konatsu can reverse time and create
>body doubles of himself and other things that not even
>-HERB- showed himself able to do...)
Can you give me a reference for Konatsu being able to reverse time? I
remember you said this before. I think Konatsu's a really cool
character, I love volume 35 to death, BUT I NEVER WAS ABLE TO FIND
KONATSU REVERSING TIME!!
>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
I remember the original was in script...is the rewrite going to be
changed into prose, or still script?
Anand Chelian
Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
>need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
>Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
>logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
>care to know.
Actually I have known you as a rude and insulting poster before.
I should have killfiled you in this group as I did in r.a.a.misc
before.
>I will try to address your actual points, those few times
>you make one.
You see what I mean. I'd prefer you attempt to insult me outright,
rather than try and imply things through tricks of language. I can
after all read, and I even know the meaning of irony and sarcasm.
>Anand Chelian wrote:
>> >If you gave Ryouga the Gekkaja and the help of Akane-doll
>> >I'd bet he'd do at -least- as well as Ranma did. Heck, he
>> >may have done -better-. The only reason Ranma lasted as logn
>> >as he did was because he was protected.
>> I don't think so... Ryouga isn't as good as Ranma is in the
>> air. In fact, how often have you seen Ryouga fighting in the
>> air. Ryouga is mostly a ground fighter.
>(ahem)
>The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
>used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
>him into the air.
It became an aerial fight when it turned out Saffron could fly,
not when Ranma used the Hiryuushotenha.
Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
>thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
>counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
>happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
>to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
>bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
>Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
So you admit that Ryouga may not have won. The couple of times
I've seen Ryouga in the air, he was put there by the
Bakusaitenketsu (Bakusaitenketsu story arc) or in the opening
fight when Ryouga first shows up (and he was mostly out of choices
at that point).
>> >The only advantage that Ranma had was that he knew the HSH,
>> >which had a variant that could defeat Saffron (the Hiryu
>> >Houu Toppa). But that isn't amazing on Ranma's part. That
>> >just means that Saffron was designed so that Ranma could
>> >eventually beat him.
>> Oh? And Ryouga never has any such advantages. After all, Lime
>> had him beat, but Ryouga had his whole angsty depression thing
>> and pulled off a SSH that just happened to be able to take down
>> Lime for the 5 minutes Ryouga needed to get away.
>No, Ryouga was slowly wearing down Lime up till the point
>where Mint smacked him in the back and stunned him long
>enough for Lime to get a solid hit in. At that point Ryouga
>had all but lost.
He got all of three shots off... how that is wearing anyone down
the way they fight is something I don't understand. Realize that
Mint revived Lime within minutes of Ryouga's super blow.
>> >The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
>> >good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
>> Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
>He was loosing the Lime because he was unlucky.
Ryouga was losing to Lime the same way Ranma is always losing to
Ryouga. Ryouga is specifically using Ranma's tactics so it can
only result in the usual outcome of the fights between Ryouga and
Ranma.
Besides, as you like to say, luck has nothing do with it.
>> >Uh... no. Not a chance. Not a chance in hell.
>> Nice to see you are so confident.
>I am because I know how the techniques work.
Then tell me where I am wrong about how the techniques work.
>> >Ranma used the Hiryushotenha on Herb, creating a tornado
>> >MORE POWERFUL than most he has used. Lime was caught in
>> >this. Lime didn't even -feel- it. As for the
>> >Mokotakabisha... this would hardly have enough damage to
>> >hurt Lime, no more than a regular Shishihokodan would. Ranma
>> >might do a bit of damage with it, but Lime would catch him
>> >and Lime would do more damage than Ranma could survive with
>> >one hit (one strike nearly KO'd Ryouga, who is much tougher
>> >than Ranma). Of course, Lime would never -hit- Ranma... so
>> >this would be a LONG match. Eventually Ranma MIGHT wear him
>> >down.
>> You know Ranma couldn't hurt Pantsutaro in monster form the
>> first couple of times he met him. Amazingly, Ranma *improvised*
>> (pure luck on his part I'm sure) a way to hit Pantsutaro with
>> a tree trunk enough so that Pantsutaro was hurt the next day for
>> the final confrontation. That particular tete-a-tete was ended
>> because Ranma went off a waterfall and couldn't fly.
>Ranma did a -slight- injury to Tarou. True that match never
>went anywhere else but Ranma hardly had a commanding
>advantage at that point.
Pantsutaro was injured the next day, and went out of his way to
hurt Ranma in the same way. If it is important enough to remember
then it must have hurt. After all, he wasn't feeling very well
and needed it bandaged (which Akane did). At any rate, note that
this was about Ranma and improvisation. After all, I did state
that in a colesium match Tarou would probably win.
>> As for Lime not feeling it, I'll note that the twister doesn't
>> hurt much if there isn't debris in it, and it is the landing that
>> hurts most in that case.
>No, that isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the
>funnel of "cold ki" that is trapped inside it, like a
>pressure cannon that blasts those inside and is contained
>within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado. The wind and
>debris and landing do little damage. This is why Herb was
>able to become immune to the Hiryushotenha by emitting cold
>ki so that he was carried up inside of it.
Look, all that does it toss people up in the air and disorient
them. After all, Akane survived one with mussed hair and disarrayed
clothes. Ranma when he was weak survived one, Lime, Mint, Herb,
Mousse, Kuno, the principal, and Gosunkugi all survived one, only
suffering a knock out. When Ranma was in the twister (defeating
Happosai/Ranma weak story line), Ranma was hurt by the stuff in
the twister not much by the twister itself. Unless you have some
evidence or examples to back yourself up I win this point.
>> Note that soon after this in the manga, Ranma is able to pull off
>> a double MKTBS against Hinako. Presumably he can put those into
>> a single blow to do lots of damage.
>Uh, no. He's just holding a small sphere in both hands.
>Presumably these are no more powerful than a regular sphere.
Umm... IIRC, then those were fully the size of a person when they
got to Hinako (who absorbed them).
>But if you want to count this as a variant...
>RYOUGA uses several variant Shishihokodan's in his fight
>with Ranma. Not only can he do the regular palm thrust, he
>can perform it with an uppercut, a right cross and several
>other moves. In other words, Ryouga could concievably use a
>Shishihokodan with any form of fighting punch.
And Ranma can use impatience (tanki), hesitation (maiyoki), and
other forms as well. The sum total Ryouga was show as doing is
the regular SSH, perfect SSH, uppercut and right cross. Since
Ranma was no place near Ryouga's fist, it is just the same as
regular SSH but possibly one handed, not a particular benefit here.
>> >Ranma can not use the Shishihokodan as well as Ryouga.
>> No, there is no proof of that. Ranma doesn't get as depressed as
>> Ryouga does, that doesn't mean that he cannot use the SSH. It just
>> means that he's not *usually* as effective as Ryouga is with it. He
>> knows why Ryouga isn't harmed by the SSH, and he knows how Ryouga
>> does the perfect SSH. After all, he took 4 blows from it and Ryouga
>> gets knocked out in two.
>That is exactly the proof. In Ranma worst moments (like when
>he thinks Akane is dead) he is not as depressed as Ryouga is
>in his worst moments (like when he thinks he is dead).
>Proof is in the pudding, as they say.
So it is just a matter of degree of emotion. Perhaps if Ranma
wound up thinking he is dead he would be able to pull off a
nasty perfect SSH? Of course we haven't seen Ranma in many
worst moments, he tends to win way before that.
>> >One thing I love to point out for this whole illusion that
>> >"Ranma is the greatest improviser on earth" thing is this.
>> Fine, show where other people have improvised or made up new
>> moves. I have some of my evidence below.
I note that you do not refute any of my evidence.
>Ryouga has improvised new Shishihokodan's in mid-fight with
>Ranma in their first re-match in the SHD story.
If you believe that all of them are variations. They just look
like regular SSHs to me. He did learn to do them one handed is
the way I took it to mean. And I'll give him credit for that.
Ryuu has
>performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
>powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
>Kijin Raishu Dan.
Regular and "highest level" KJRSD. Same as Ryouga and regular
and perfect (and no other variants) for the SSH. No sign of
innovation for Ryuu here I'm sorry to say.
He has also came up with a variant of his
>Golden Rope Binding Soar (forget the Japanese) which allowed
>him to spin it over his head and snap it in place around
>Ranma's neck and multiple other variants on his moves in
>that fight.
I'll grant you this one. Also remember that Ranma reinvented
most of the Umisenken from the one session his father showed
him.
Tarou doesn't USE special techniques but in
>monster form was easily able to adapt his ink-shooting
>ability to block a stream of hot water.
This is innovation? I'd be more impressed if you had cited his
taking the chimney top off with his tentacles to clobber Ranma,
there he used what was at hand to attack an opponent from an
entirely new situation. Of course, Ranma got him into the chimney
in the first place. I'm not sure most straight blocking techniques
would be counted as innovations.
Ryouga adapted the
>Bakusaitenketsu from a move which directly attacks the
>opponent to an attack meant to send a shower of rocks at his
>enemy.
That's just a side effect of the bakusaitenketsu. Designed
in from the start, nothing new. Bakusaitenketsu never ever
directly attacked the opponent, Cologne stated as much.
He also changed the move so that instead of producing
>a fine shower of shards he could create a blast of giant
>stones.
When? It has always produced large shards, unless he uses
it some place geologically unstable and prone to avalanches
of large rocks (i.e. the mountain at the end of the Herb
storyline).
Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
>blocking shield.
I don't remember this actually. When? He usually uses his
umbrella to block.
Tarou easily inverts one of Ranma's more
>painful looking holds to escape it.
This is true in any martial art. It has grapples and reverses.
Any Judo-ka would be able to show you half a dozen reverses. I'm
afraid Tarou doesn't get any credit for this one.
>The list goes on and on...
I saw two things of innovation in you list with a possible third.
I'm afraid that doesn't match Ranma.
>> >In the Herb story Ranma fought Herb FOUR times. Each time he
>> >was taken down (or trapped by) the SAME TECHNIQUE. In fact,
>> >Ranma learned the secret OF this technique. Ranma was, even
>> >armed with this knowledge -never- able to counter it.
>>
>> First time Ranma was taken down flat. Second time Ranma thought
>> he had it, but he was wrong and was taken down by it anyway. The
>> third time I remember was in the big fight sequence when Herb used
>> it as a finishing move when Ranma wasn't able to fight back very
>> hard anyway (this hardly counts as being taken down by the same
>> technique). After that Ranma pulled off the HRSTH, and was nailed
>> by Herb (and this was a suprise the same way Ryouga was suprised by
>> Lime). Then Ranma gets up, and (Note: in the same fight) repeats
>> his HRSTH (or rather a variant thereof), rides the twister, and
>> comes back down with a new technique that no one had used before.
>Herb used the technique once in their final fight. It took
>down Ranma easily. After that he never used it again,
>prefering to try a variety of more lethal techniques such as
>the Hitou Ryuzan Ha and so on. This is how Ranma got the
>opportunity to use the HSH. If Herb had stuck to the tactic
>of using only that move, Ranma would have had no counter to
>it.
I doubt that. He caught Ranma totally off guard the first time.
By the third time Ranma figured out what it did (ki blasts off the
ground). Once Ranma knows where it is coming from he can dodge
it.
>> >In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
>> Suprise my ass... Ryouga was the one who attacked Lime because
>> Lime was carrying Akane away. If you mean that Ryouga was
>> suprised by Lime's strength and toughness then fine.
>This is what I mean yes. I will conceede that fights in
>which you have no clue what your opponent is capable of will
>often turn out one-sided.
Which is how Ryouga won against Ranma when Ryouga learned the SSH.
>> >In their next fight Ryouga -changes tactics- and is winning
>> >until Mousse screws him up.
>> No, Ryouga isn't really winning, he's not losing. Presumably
>> Ryouga would have set up for some of his more powerful attacks
>> and worn Lime down just as Ranma would have had to do.
>Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
>After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
>no superhuman healing factor after all.
Neither does Ryouga. Or for that matter Ranma.
>> Besides, if you'd paid attention, he is copying the tactics Ranma
>> usually uses against him (and we know Ranma has never ever beaten
>> Ryouga).
>So? This only proves that Ryouga can learn and adapt from
>the styles his opponents use against him.
It isn't innovation. It's just copying.
>> >Also, it took roughly a week to learn the Amaguriken. It
>> >took Ryouga roughly the same time to learn the
>> >Bakusaitenketsu. It took Ranma the same amount of time to
>> >figure out the Mokotakbisha as it took Ryouga to figure out
>> >the "perfect" Shishihokodan.
>>
>> Yeah, and Ranma had the benefit of scrolls and depression just
>> like Ryouga did. Ryouga didn't have any help from Akane in
>> getting depressed. Ranma figured out a new move almost from
>> scratch in the time it took Ryouga to perfect a move. I guess
>> you'll have to show me how Ryouga learns faster as you state
>> below.
>I'm sure that arrow was a big help to Ryouga. Ryouga asked
>for Akane's help, that was the trigger of the move. He still
>figured out the trigger himself. Also note that that scroll
>did NOT talk about a combat technique. In fact, it is
>specifically stated that the SHD is not a combat technique
>originally and that Ryouga had to "revise" it in order to
>make it combat worthy. So really all that scroll said was
>"get depressed."
Sigh... Bakusaitenketsu isn't a combat move either. Ryouga even says
that if it can blow rocks away, it should be able to blow Ranma away.
There is no indication that SSH needs any modification to use against
people.
>> >In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
>> >from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
>>
>> Really... you know Ranma learned HRSTH in three days (you can look
>> at the translation if you want). The most of it was learning to
>> control his emotions, he figured out the basics of the move the
>> first time he was shown it (hey, Ryouga has done that too, right,
>> with BSTK, and the SSH -- oh, right, he was taught those two by
>> other people).
>Actually, Ranma didn't figure out the basics of the move. He
>figured out the spiral pattern, but not how it worked or how
>to set it off. The fact he used it the first time he did was
>a fluke. ;p He still had plenty of help from Cologne
>however.
The most important part of the training was Ranma learning to keep
his cool. Once he learned to do that and stay on the spiral he
did the rest himself. After all, Cologne even goes and says, "Darn,
I forgot to tell him the final move." Ranma figures it out for
himself and Cologne says, "He figured it out for himself." i.e.
it wasn't a fluke that he pulled the move off.
>As for the three days thing... well Ryouga has only ever
>learned two "specials" so he have no third special from
>around the same time to compare the two at.
In the mean time Ranma has learned the Hiryuushotenha, the Kachuutenshi
Amaguriken, the Umisenken, the Mokotakabisha, the Shishihokodan (not
the perfect version, though he's figured out how Ryouga does it), and
came up with a fair number of variations on several of the moves.
>Also remember, that special moves are NOT the be all and end
>all of Ranma martial arts. They are like a punch or a kick,
>useful, but knowing how to use one or the other when your
>opponent doens't will not gaurentee your victory.
No, but having more options always helps. And you make a good point,
remember that most of these attacks have their weak points. For example,
Ryouga's perfect SSH only works near ground zero.
>> >Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
>> >must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
>> >Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
>> Really? When? It didn't look like Ryouga was pounding Ranma
>> in the school yard fight, in fact, until Akane got stuck, it
>> looked like Ranma was comfortably in charge.
>?
>When did Ranma KO Ryouga in that fight? Ryouga was not
>exactly pounding Ranma around, but then again, he wasn't
>easily putmanuevering Ranma. That match seemed pretty even
>really.
Then that gives lie to your original statement.
>> Then of course there is the ice rink fight where Ryouga boldly
>> takes on Ranma after Ranma has been smashed into the rink side by
>> the Merry-Go-Round of Parting.
>You forget Ranma's well-documented healing factor. For a
>look at that check out the Tarou fight in volume 18. Tarou
>takes an injury and a night later it hasn't healed. He then
>give Ranma the same injury. In MINUTES Ranma has healed,
>while Tarou is still injured.
Really? Considering that you can't see Ranma's shoulder can you
really say if Ranma has a healing factor or just compensates well.
When did Ranma get this healing factor? It certainly wasn't
around when he had his first fight with Ryouga (the initial cut he
gets from Ryouga's thumb stays with him throughout the day.
>Also, you only state those points salient to your position.
Of course, if you had points salient to your position it is your
job to bring them up.
>The match-up situation was:
>1) Ranma has taken one Merry-go-round attack. Not a big
>factor as he was healed mostly by the time that fight
>started.
Considering that Ryouga was popping Ranma joints immediately
before and during the fight, I don't see how you can say it
was healed. Either way, Ranma is one tough bad-ass whether it
is just toughness or a healing factor.
>2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
Sigh, do you think Ryouga is tougher than Mousse? If Mousse could
beat Ranma due to speed, strength, and reach considerations (before
Ranma learned distance attacks and the Amaguriken) then Ryouga
would have wiped the floor with Ranma's female form. Agility didn't
matter as much in that case.
>3) Ranma has learned how to skate, Ryouga has not.
Why is that? Why does it matter much after Ryouga destroys the
ice part of the pool? After all, Ryouga specifically destroys the
ice rink to lessen his non-skating disadvantage.
>4) Ryouga was, essentially, fighting -three- people, not
>just Ranma.
Not really. There is just one attack he makes against Mikado after
Azusa jumps onto him. The rest of the time he is just going after
Ranma. Mikado and Azusa leave the rink almost immediately after
that, the only real move they had before that was the Merry-Go-Round
attack.
>5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
>meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
True. But he took advantage of Ranma's misunderstanding that Ryouga
was going to fight against Mikado first.
>6) Akane was interfering, but her interference could have
>been inhibitng to both. She just threw a chunk of ice, not
>at ranma in particular.
No, she threw one at Ranma in particular, Ryouga took advantage
of it to land a kick on Ranma, and one at both which hit both.
>> Then Ranma is in his weaker form
>> (the one that it turns out that Mousse can beat), and Ryouga is
>> beating him up.
>When, exactly, did Mousse beat it? As far as I recall, Ranma
>outmanuevered and defeated Mousse in that fight.
No, Ranma didn't beat Mousse until Dr. Tofu hit his old-man <something>
spot, and Ranma could be splashed with hot water.
>> In
>> >fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
>> >than Ranma does.
>>
>> Really... How often has Ranma used a "special" technique against
>> Ryouga or Mousse?
>Ranma uses the Amaguriken everytime he fights. He doens't
>-shout- Amaguriken however, but there are several times
>against both that he uses the "blurred fist" attack.
I count him using it in one fight against Ryouga. You'll have
to point me to other examples. If the Amaguriken makes Ranma
stronger and faster then Ryouga uses the Bakusaitenketsu every
time he fights because it made him tougher. I guess that evens
out.
>> I count the "Saotome Final Technique" (and a
>> variation of the Amaguri-Ken), and the MKTBS (which was a counter
>> to the SSH). By contrast, Ryouga learned one of his special
>> techniques (BSTK) specifically to "beat" Ranma, and one of the few
>> fights he won against Ranma was when he learned his second special
>> technique (SSH).
>Ryouga learned that technique ONLY when Ranma had learned
>the Amaguriken. By this token, Ranma learned the Amaguriken
>only to get the Pheonix Pill from Cologne.
You mean Cologne specifically taught Ryouga the move to help him
keep up with Ranma.
He also learned
>the Shishihokodan and had no intention of challngeing Ranma
>with it seriously, he only wanted to try it out and see how
>well he had adapted it. It was only when Ranma insisted on
>fighting him that Ryouga turned it into a slugfest.
Um... in the manga, Ryouga said, "I don't have much confidence
in it, but if you'll help me try it out." i.e. Ryouga was
specifically planning to use it against Ranma.
Ranma later says, "I was going all out."
>Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
>several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
>a bit by surprise.
Where is this? Is this the part where Ryouga threatens to beat
Ranma up so that Ranma will go away? The part where Ranma goes
to male form and starts pounding away in a fight Ryouga started.
Later, Ranma attacks but Ryouga deflects
>and beats him without a "special" attack.
You'll have to be more specific.
>> Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
>> about Akane?
>Ryouga, Konatsu and a few others are regulars that are
>better than him.
Ryouga? Maybe, if he's just learned a special techinque or Ranma
isn't to the top of his form. Konatsu? I don't see any evidence
that Konatsu can hang in during a long fight with Ranma.
>Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
>called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
>generation.
No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
difference.
He is a fighter that only comes about once every
>thousand years. No claims to that effect were ever made
>about Ranma. (Of course, Konatsu can reverse time and create
>body doubles of himself and other things that not even
>-HERB- showed himself able to do...)
You mean bunshin no jitsu? There is no indication that it was for
anything more than comedy purposes. I don't see Konatsu use it
in a fight, against Ranma, for example. What reverse time technique?
>Also stop putting words in mouth. I claimed no such things.
You said that:
>> >Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
>> >hardly even the best among the normal people around the
>> >series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
>> >twice.
I was just attempting to clear up whether Kuno and Akane were
not "normal" people. AFAIK, Kuno and Akane are among the best
normal humans there are in the series.
>> >Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
>> >and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
>> >not just in battle).
>> Really? When? Ryouga beat Ranma in the SSH story arc, that I'll
>> grant. You mean the Ryouga who has trouble tricking Ranma into
>> getting to go to his house while Ranma has fooled Ryouga with a
>> female guise at least twice?
>The "Magic Soap" storyline contains some examples.
You'll have to be specific. Do you mean Ryouga hiding the soap in
someplace not entirely obvious? If that is tricky then Nabiki is
an Einstein.
In the
>Bakusaitenketsu story after Ranma uses the "block" Ryouga
>tricks him into blocking again so that he can headbutt
>Ranma.
"Trick"? It was a good move, but Ranma often tricks Ryouga
the same way, i.e. he "tricked" Ryouga into letting a bakusaitenketsu
immediately below him so that he could knock Ryouga into the air,
lock all his limbs, and use his Amaguriken variant to win the fight.
So that one evens out then?
>The the Love Koi story he outsmarts Ranma on multiple
>occasions.
A love sick Ranma who would do anything for Ryouga, up to and
including letting Ryouga kill him? Are you sure that is not
just trust and infatuation as opposed to Ryouga tricking Ranma.
>Need I go on?
Yes actually.
>> >Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
>> >plot oriented position.
>> Fine, so does Ryouga. It's a story for god's sake man. Everything
>> happens from a contrived plot oriented position. Your's or
>> Takahashi's take a pick.
>A yes, "Ranma will win because he will", the last defense.
>Frankly, I can't agrue with that logic. I'll merelt point
>out that it is circular, thus flawed, thus inadmissable.
I'll merely point out that Ranma is written as the best martial artist
in the manga. This may not be what you like, but if he wins 80+% of
his fights against all these monsters, then he is a better martial
artist than Ryouga according to Takahashi. You are free to dislike it
or write your own variants, but in those cases it will be "Ryouga will
win because he will". i.e. you don't have a leg to stand on any more
than I do.
>> Ranma has only -once- ever
>> >managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
>> >other people.
>> No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
>> fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
>Tarou doesn't have Ranma's healing factor, and the shot
>which KO'd him hit him in roughly the same spot. I think
>that counts. Also, he won with the help of Akane, which
>means he -didn't- win on his own, which proves my point.
I don't remember seeing a healing factor in any of the series.
Both Ranma and Ryouga have ungodly metabolisms that let them
survive medium to large helpings of Akane's food. But I don't
see any healing factor that cannot be explained by Ranma being
good at compensating for injury.
>> >In their human on human fights Tarou has
>> >outmanuveured him in every engagement.
>> Which ones?
>There are four times Tarou and Ranma have faced off or been
>in comparable situations in human on human fights. First was
>their first meeting, but in that no clear victor or superior
>fighter was clear.
Okay. I can live with that because Tarou monstered out and
beat Ranma. I already admit Ranma would have lots of trouble
with Tarou's cursed form.
Second was on the cliffside. Here Tarou
>cheats outrageously (yes, I admit it) HOWEVER he does
>demonstrate that he is much faster and smarter than Ranma
>anyway.
I'm suprised that you admit he cheated... that wasn't what you
were saying about a year or so ago. How is he faster if Ranma
can keep Tarou from getting wet for what appears to be quite a
while. It is quite possible that Tarou is more cunning and maybe
even street smart than Ranma is. I'll also note that this is not
equivalent to straight out intelligence.
Third is in the same volume, where Happousai goes
>monster and attacks Tarou in human form. Tarou takes a hit
>but isn't KO'd, which is more than Ranma has ever done.
Umm... well... I'll point out that Ranma is conscious several times
after Happosai attacks him. After all, Ranma comes back at least
three times the first few times Happosai uses his pipe trick on Ranma.
>Fourth is in Ashura story, where Ashura blasts both Ranma
>and Tarou (and was aiming for Tarou so presumably he took
>the brunt of the blast) and Ranma gets KO'd while Tarou is
>still screaming defiance. Also in that story Tarou KO's
>Ranma with two moves (kick into air and smash with barbell)
Sigh, I'll have to reread these parts.
>(Snip description of second fight) D
>> Despite that Ranma manages to keep Tarou on the defensive for quite a > while.
>
>Tarou was winning on the defensive.
>It is a fallacy of tactical thinking to presume you can't
>win on the defensive.
True, but it does leave you in the weaker position. Tarou
had the tactical defensive and strategic offensive, which is
a great way to win.
And if you reread my statement, I did not say that Ranma was winning.
>> I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
>> writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
>> take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
>> his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
>> beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
>> broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
>> form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
>> Ranma can beat up everybody.
>This is...
>Utterly insignificant.
>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
fighters were capable of.
Secondly, do not
>presume to judge Ranma and Senchi (said evil half of Ranma)
>as the same. They aren't. Trust me.
They were... Senchi was simply much more ruthless than Ranma in his
male form. That was what you presented in the original. In which
case, the only think keeping the others alive is the fact that Ranma
is a nice guy.
>> Against Ryuu he was
>> >using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
>> >style. And he STILL almost got himself killed.
>> No, the Umisenken and the Yamasenken are not designed to defeat each
>> other.
>Uh-huh. This explains why the Umisenken has the following
>moves.
>1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
>teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
>in a rope while.
I thought that was a Ranma innovation. It certainly wasn't stealing
anything.
>2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
>little more.
Don't you mean any bear hug type move? Or are you claiming that it
would be 100% ineffective against other types of bear hugs.
>3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
Really, I thought that it was an innovation on Ranma's part. After
all, I don't remember the Tendo dojo's floor being sucked up into the
air or buried under the dirt, which would have happened if Genma had
used the move, right? i.e. Ranma made it up.
>Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
>Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
>countermove for the Yamasenken.
Yeah right. They are both techniques for stealing. They originally
weren't supposed to be martial arts at all. Please remember what the
conversation they were having after Ryuu left was about, and why
Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken. Umisenken is the superior art for
stealing. I'll say it as many times as I need to. Ranma practiced
the parts of Umisenken that he needed to counter Yamasenken and added
the counters he had devised to the Yamasenken.
>> Herb knows
>> >MUCH more about ki than Ranma and has more special
>> >techniques avilable. I'd like to see you say how Ranma would
>> >do in a re-match with him, since it is doubtful Herb could
>> >fall for the Hiryu Kourin Dan a second time.
>>
>> So? Herb doesn't have an unlimited bag of tricks. What is Herb
>> going to use that Ranma absolutely will not be able to counter?
>The Dragon Spirit Acension Soar? Ranma never showed any
>ability to counter that... ever.
No, but he figured out where it came from. After all, the move is
different in Herb's male form than it is in his female form. Which
is why he was able to get away with it 4 times.
>> Herb is probably the most powerful character in the series apart
>> from Saffron, and the closest match to Ranma.
>No. That would be Cologne (that is best next to Saffron).
>Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
Sorry, you are probably correct that Cologne is second most powerful
after Saffron. I disagree with your second statement.
>> >And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
>> >hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
>> >machinae finish with.
>> Neither can Ryouga. Get it through your skull that this is
>> a story. All fights have deus ex machina finishes.
>No, not all of them. Some have endings that make sense based
>on the skills of both fighters.
No, that is *your* estimation of the skills of both fighters. Please
learn the difference between an opinion and a fact.
>> Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
>> >use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
>> >enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
>> What would he do then? Ranma was winning handily until Ryuu
>> threw him off guard with the comment about his mother in the
>> final fight. Ryuu hadn't laid a glove on Ranma before that,
>> where as Ranma had already pulled off at least two blows
>> against Ryuu.
>Both of which (and here is the clincher) DIDN'T SLOW RYUU
>DOWN. Ryuu is the thrid toughest (physically) character in
>the manga (and the other two aren't human). He just needs
>-time- to catch Ranma.
They knocked him to his knees. If your definition of "DIDN'T
SLOW RYUU DOWN" is struggling to your feet, then you are correct.
He got one of his two effective attacks in after that. Ranma
survived everything else. Heck, Ryuu's best move was the taunt
he used on Ranma.
>> >Against Herb he wouldn't be able to use the Hiryu Kourin Dan
>> >because Herb wouldn't fall for it a second time now that he
>> >knows it exists.
>>
>> Okay, and Herb wouldn't be able to use most of his techniques
>> because Ranma has already seen them and has counters in hand.
>Ranma never created counters to most of Herb's attacks. He
>only dodged them.
If they can't hit, they're no good except for possibly setting
them up for something else. If Ranma can out tough you, then well,
he's doing pretty well there too.
And Herb would just have to be careful not
>to let ranma lure him into another Hiryu Kourin Dan atatck,
>since that is (and here is the clincher) the ONLY decent
>move Ranma landed in that fight.
You mean that if a move is ineffective then it is useless? And
that two Hiryuushotenha's are nothing just because Ranma didn't
know they wouldn't work? Again, Herb had a great advantage in
that his attacks changed from female to male form.
>> Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
>> >second match (at best, it was a double KO).
>> Which second fight? The one where Tarou came back with octopus
>> tentacles? The one where both Ranma and Tarou were knocked
>> unconscious until they hit the bath?
>Tarou recovered before then, he was just unable to fly what
>with his wings and tentecales stuck inside a concrete tube.
How can you tell that Ranma didn't recover? Because he couldn't fly?
Actually I'll probably have to go back and look at the manga again.
It has been several years since I looked at it.
>> I'll point out that Ranma was quite able to dodge almost all of
>> Tarou's blows after that, especially since Tarou lost the element
>> of suprise with the tentacles and the ink. *Tarou* won by
>> suprise (but I suppose you'll have some hand-waving for this one
>> too).
>Ranma still has nothing that could have -hurt- Tarou.
>Eventually, he'd tire and slow down...
Again, I'll say that Tarou (in monster form only) can beat Ranma in
a stadium fight.
>> >The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
>> >the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
>> >he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
>> >he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
>> >his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
>> >would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
>> What do they focus on other than Ranma fighting? Ryouga's
>> fighting? Tarou's fighting?
>Ukyou fighting.
Ukyou gets into all of, what, 4 fights in the series?
>Akane fighting.
Akane gets into all of, what, 6 fights in the series?
>Try again please.
Exactly. Ryouga gets more fights than Akane or Ukyou. Akane
gets more "screen time" than anyone but Ranma (I think). Would
you care to tell me again where I am wrong in stating that it
is a romantic comedy (Ranma and Akane lead characters) and martial
arts second (a close second)?
>> Get it through your head that this is a romantic comedy first
>> and a martial arts flick second (a very close second). Of
>> course most of the story is going to revolve around Ranma and
>> Akane. IMO, Ranma can take Ryouga 7-8 falls out of 10 unless
>> Ryouga has just learned a special technique.
>Your entitled to your opinion. Mine is supported by most of
>the fact however.
I guess you're not looking at the same facts I am. If you can
point to inaccuracies in my translation then I am willing to go
back and better research my points. If we agree on the "events"
but disagree on the interpretation, then it is a matter of
opinion by definition.
>> >Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
>> >advantage that means he will. In the Pheonix arc this is
>> >obvious, it's the Gekkaja and Akane's help. In other stories
>> >it's other things.
>> I'm sure that Ryouga could have taken Saffron down with absolutely
>> no help at all. And Tarou could do it with both hands tied behind
>> his back and in human form.
>I never claimed either.
Sure you didn't... it's just that they can beat Ranma that way, so
they should be able to beat Saffron that way too. The more outlandish
your claims get about Tarou's and Ryouga's strength, the more
riduculous they sound when comparing them elsewhere.
>> >In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken.
>> Of course, Ryuu's knowing the Yamasenken is not an advantage.
>> I'll note that the final fight was a fight between the two
>> styles not an open martial arts contest. Ranma was pounding
>> Ryuu until his mother (or Akane, I can't remember which)
>> distracts him. Ryuu beats him the second time just flat out
>> because the Yamasenken is a very unconventional art and lets
>> Ryuu beat up regular martial artists by suprise. That and
>> Ryuu is a very good martial artist.
>The difference is that Yamasenken is a powerful art, while
>Umisenken is a counter-style to it. It is designed to -beat-
>it, that is why it is called "the superior art".
Again, they are *not* martial arts. They are ways to steal stuff.
It is the superior art because it doesn't go for confrontation.
And would certainly be more useful to a budoka's wife. They are
complimentary arts, not contrary arts, you should use one when you
can't use the other. These are "arts for living" not arts for
fighting.
>> In
>> >the Tarou story it's the assitance of four allies (Ryouga,
>> >Mousse, Shampoo and Akane... unless you mean to say Ranam
>> >could have used the "Pantyhose Shooting Star Kick" without
>> >Akane's help?)
>> No he couldn't have. On the other hand Ryouga wasn't winning
>> against Tarou by himself either.
>No, but Ryouga was able to HURT tarou-Bakemono with his -own
>strength-, something Ranma was not able to do.
Really? Where? Tarou was still up and running happily after Ryouga
was beating on him.
>> and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
>> >and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
>> >well, so they don't realy face off.
>> That's fine. But you should note that Tarou, other than the
>> one time on top of his mountain never comes close to beating
>> Ranma in his uncursed form, and I have the explantation
>> above.
>Unless you count the time he KO'd ranma with two blows?
Where was that?
>> Against Herb he would
>> >have -died- if Ryouga AND Mousse had not saved his life on
>> >several occasions and if those two had not helped him win.
>> Of course, Ryouga AND Mousse have nothing to do with almost
>> getting killed themselves. They don't leave Ranma at a
>> disadvantage by KO'ing him as a female.
>Huh? That happened hours before the fight between Ranma and
>Herb!
Hours!? And it has no effect? Because of this healing factor
you keep mentioning?
>> Ranma doesn't help
>> them become male or anything else. Ryouga and Mousse easily
>> take on Lime, Mint, and Herb, defeating them and leaving
>> Ranma in the dust. Of course, Herb can't hurt or deal with
>> Lime or Mint on his own either.
>Your sarcasm leaves me speechless. I conceed that Ryouga is
>not, single-handedly, apble to beat every single member of
>the cast at once and that he never, at any point managed to
>do a Kamehameha. This, of course, means that Ryouga can't
>POSSIBLY be better than Ranma. Because we known that ranma
>HAS done these things ne?
Counter sarcasm noted.
Now, if you can admit that Ryouga can't beat Herb, Tarou (cursed),
or anyone more powerful than those two, then we can discuss how
Ryouga and Ranma are related powerwise.
One of the points of my paragraph was that Herb could beat up Lime
and Mint by himself. Ranma beat Herb. This makes it possible that
Ranma could take on Ryouga (who had trouble with Lime) and win most
of the time.
>> >Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
>> >He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
>> >are staked in his favor because he is the star.
>> Right, in that same way, Ryouga and Tarou will never win
>> unless the author wants them to. You are not dealing with
>> objective reality here (that's probably true the rest of the
>> time as well, but I digress). So let me say it again. In
>> Rumiko Takahashi's world, Ranma is the best martial artist
>> because he will win (even if he doesn't win the first match).
>I don't known about you, but in a match of two out of three
>falls, the guy who gets two falls wins over the guy who gets
>one.
You mean that Ranma will win in my and Rumiko Takahashi's conception
of the world, and Ryouga and Tarou will win in yours. If Ranma wins
the rematch and the one after that then Ranma has won. If Ranma wins
the rematch and they don't come to challenge him until they get
something new, then that says something again.
><snip Ranma worhip>
Keep in mind that you engage in Ryouga worship as well, and we are
well on our way to a compromise.
>> In your opinion, Ranma is a wimp, and cannot win except by
>> cheating and attacking people where they aren't good.
>No, this is NOT my opinion. There are several people I
>believe that Ranma could defeat. In fact, their are quite a
>few. This list includes Ukyou, Mousse, Kunou, Mint, Lime,
>Koruma, Masara, Mariko, Lukkosai and on and on and on. I
>just don't believe that he is infallible and that he will
>always win.
Good, we can agree on this. It only leaves Tarou (where I conditionally
agree with you), Ryouga, Konatsu, Kumon Ryuu, and Herb. Feel free to add
names.
>> He would
>> not be able to beat Gosunkugi with all the special techniques
>> he is given by the author. Where as, Ryouga, Tarou, etc. never
>> need special techniques or suprise, and are perfect honorable
>> and forthright in all their intentions all the time, and always
>> beat Ranma.
>I never claimed this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
No, you didn't claim it this time around. It ususally comes up when
either you or Blade brings up the Ranma can only win by cheating. It
usually involves a large round of explanations as to why Ryouga and
Tarou aren't cheating when they use similar tactics to what Ranma
sometimes uses.
>> I'll just say that you are welcome to your opinion, but please
>> don't try to pass it off as gospel. I'll just sit here and
>> think of you as delusional and fanatic in your protestations.
>Okay, you're entitled. But we can keep this at least a
>little civil ne?
I'll try... please keep in mind that my reactions were colored by
the things you said the last time I was debating you (3 or 4 years
ago). Also, I would appreciate more examples and quotes. I find
it really irritating to debate with someone who mentions something
vaguely when I try to provide more concrete examples (it means they
have an infinite repetory of comebacks, very few of which are
actually substantiated).
Aaron Peori
>
> Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
> >need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
> >Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
> >logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
> >care to know.
>
Actually yes and no. I was used to it back in the heyday of
these debates. But I, being the fool that I am, thought that
this sort of thing had died out a year or so back when more
logical reasoned arguments became the norm.
> >> I don't think so... Ryouga isn't as good as Ranma is in the
> >> air. In fact, how often have you seen Ryouga fighting in the
> >> air. Ryouga is mostly a ground fighter.
> >
> >The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
> >used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
> >him into the air. Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
> >thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
> >counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
> >happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
> >to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
> >bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
> >Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
>
> It's also worthwhile to note that, in a typical fight, going into the
> air is about the worst move you can possibly make.
In RL yeah, in Ranma... not quite true. Still, not often has
anyone in Ranma gained a decisive advantage by going
airborne. Remember, air and flight only offers you two
advantages, those being possibly out of reach of your
opponent and a thrid axis of movement. However, unless you
have a long range attack of some kind, and your opponent
doens't distance isn't any good, and the third axis of
movement is cmpensated for by a lack of traction and ability
to utilize terrain and obstacles to their fullest effects.
> >Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
> >called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
> >generation. He is a fighter that only comes about once every
> >thousand years. No claims to that effect were ever made
> >about Ranma. (Of course, Konatsu can reverse time and create
> >body doubles of himself and other things that not even
> >-HERB- showed himself able to do...)
>
> Can you give me a reference for Konatsu being able to reverse time? I
> remember you said this before. I think Konatsu's a really cool
> character, I love volume 35 to death, BUT I NEVER WAS ABLE TO FIND
> KONATSU REVERSING TIME!!
The second Konatsu story is where it appears. He uses a
specail attack to wheel time back for several of Ukyou's
customers when he messes up. I forget the exact tankouban
number.
> >Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
> >of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
> >and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
> >when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
>
> I remember the original was in script...is the rewrite going to be
> changed into prose, or still script?
Most likely it will stay in script. While converting it to
prose is tempting I think that would take much more of an
effort than I am willing to put into it. As it is only the
pure determination of my co-writer is getting me to consider
it at all (and then, only after I finish the Altime Cycle).
--------------
Epsilon
Hunter Kid
>> >Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
>> >need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
>> >Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
>> >logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
>> >care to know.
>>
>> You mean you aren't used to this kind of thing by now? ;p
>
>Actually yes and no. I was used to it back in the heyday of
>these debates. But I, being the fool that I am, thought that
>this sort of thing had died out a year or so back when more
>logical reasoned arguments became the norm.
Oh. Being gone for the mentioned year, I wasn't aware that these had
died out... ;p
Hm...I return...things go psycho again...I hope there's no correlation
there. ^^;;;
>> It's also worthwhile to note that, in a typical fight, going into the
>> air is about the worst move you can possibly make.
>
>In RL yeah, in Ranma... not quite true.
Even in Ranma, until pretty late in the series, the characters are
still subject to the laws of ballistics, which gives them a perfectly
predictable flight pattern. (I said this more as a note as to _why_
Ryouga doesn't know how to fight airborne (and I don't think he does)
- simply because it's generally a bad idea. ;p)
The exceptions to this are in a forest (like in volume 35), where the
fighters can bounce of trees and such, or in any other area where
there's lots of stuff to maneuver off of. And, of course, later on in
the series, distance attacks like the HSH, MT, and SSH give an
airborne attacker a considerable advantage.
Ryouga's style just doesn't involve bouncing off trees, I suppose...
>Still, not often has
>anyone in Ranma gained a decisive advantage by going
>airborne. Remember, air and flight only offers you two
>advantages, those being possibly out of reach of your
>opponent and a thrid axis of movement.
You only get a third axis of movement, though, if there's lots of
stuff nearby to jump off of (and in that case, your opponent can
likely figure out what you're doing), or if you can fly. If you can
fly, of course taking to the air's probably a good idea, but then,
Ryouga can't... ^_^
>However, unless you
>have a long range attack of some kind, and your opponent
>doens't distance isn't any good,
Although, if you're airborne and he's not, gravity's working in your
favor. Although I dunno if this affects ki blasts or not.
>and the third axis of
>movement is cmpensated for by a lack of traction and ability
>to utilize terrain and obstacles to their fullest effects.
Well, the flying characters seem to be able to pivot in the air fairly
quickly, ne? I agree with the latter fully, though.
>> Can you give me a reference for Konatsu being able to reverse time? I
>> remember you said this before. I think Konatsu's a really cool
>> character, I love volume 35 to death, BUT I NEVER WAS ABLE TO FIND
>> KONATSU REVERSING TIME!!
>
>The second Konatsu story is where it appears. He uses a
>specail attack to wheel time back for several of Ukyou's
>customers when he messes up. I forget the exact tankouban
>number.
Oh. I don't have the second Konatsu story; that would explain why I
can't find it. >_<
But if he can reverse time, why doesn't he do when he's losing a
fight?
>> >Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
>> >of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
>> >and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
>> >when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
>>
>> I remember the original was in script...is the rewrite going to be
>> changed into prose, or still script?
>
>Most likely it will stay in script. While converting it to
>prose is tempting I think that would take much more of an
>effort than I am willing to put into it.
I see. Well, I look forward to it in any case...
>As it is only the
>pure determination of my co-writer is getting me to consider
>it at all
Speaking of Blade, isn't it going to be a pain co-authoring something
with him when he's out of the country? ;p
>(and then, only after I finish the Altime Cycle).
BTW, does the Altima Cycle have Shiris in it? I dunno whether or not
Blade showed you the pic I did, but I put Shiris and Ashram on it...
David Johnston
>
> Epsilon wrote:
>
> > Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
> > He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
> > are staked in his favor because he is the star.
>
> is the difference? You are saying that Takahashi has
> constructed the Ranmaverse so that Ranma wins. Evaluations
> of "better" _have_ to be in the context of the Ranmaverse; no
> other evaluation makes any sense. So what does it matter
> whether Ranma wins by a +20 on skill or a +20 on luck?
> As you say, he still wins.
Not that it's true. Ranma beats Kuno most of the time because he is
better. Ranma beat Ryoga after learning the Amaguriken, because he was
better.
However, fights where Ranma's butt is saved by a third party can't
really be counted as wins even if he was lucky enough to avoid a loss.
Aaron Peori
>
> In article <37CB4B58...@ns.sympatico.ca>,
> Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Anand, at no point did I ever insult you.
> I should have killfiled you in this group as I did in r.a.a.misc
> before.
Tsk tsk, never judge people by what they have done in the
past. People change.
> >I will try to address your actual points, those few times
> >you make one.
> You see what I mean. I'd prefer you attempt to insult me outright,
> rather than try and imply things through tricks of language. I can
> after all read, and I even know the meaning of irony and sarcasm.
This is a snipe at the act of sniping. I've never liked it
in debates.
> >Anand Chelian wrote:
> >The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
> >used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
> >him into the air.
>
> It became an aerial fight when it turned out Saffron could fly,
> not when Ranma used the Hiryuushotenha.
Not neccesarily. Saffron can fly, true, but he'd need some
way to attack. While he can use ranged attacks provided
Ryouga learned the secret of the Gekkaja quickly that
wouldn't be much of a problem.
> > How the fight between Ryouga/w
> >Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
>
> So you admit that Ryouga may not have won.
I admit he may not have won. I also say that Ranma may not
have won. I would give them, going in, about the same
chance.
> >No, Ryouga was slowly wearing down Lime up till the point
> >where Mint smacked him in the back and stunned him long
> >enough for Lime to get a solid hit in. At that point Ryouga
> >had all but lost.
>
> He got all of three shots off... how that is wearing anyone down
> the way they fight is something I don't understand. Realize that
> Mint revived Lime within minutes of Ryouga's super blow.
Lime was still severly injured. As can be seen by the fact
that Ryouga then KO'd him with one punch a few minutes
later.
> >> Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
>
> >He was loosing the Lime because he was unlucky.
>
> Ryouga was losing to Lime the same way Ranma is always losing to
> Ryouga. Ryouga is specifically using Ranma's tactics so it can
> only result in the usual outcome of the fights between Ryouga and
> Ranma.
>
> Besides, as you like to say, luck has nothing do with it.
(shake head) Not -quite- the same thing. Ryouga is more
likely to win against Ranma than Lime is against Ryouga.
There are other factors involved as well, like the fact that
Ryouga has more training and is better able to track and
anticipate his opponents moves while Lime appears to be just
a brawler.
> >> >Uh... no. Not a chance. Not a chance in hell.
>
> >> Nice to see you are so confident.
>
> >I am because I know how the techniques work.
>
> Then tell me where I am wrong about how the techniques work.
*ahem* The Hiryushotenha works by causing the opponents
Battle Aura to swirl around the area in a spiral, all the
while the user keeps cool and calm, emitting no battle aura.
When the opponent closes the spiral this spins the hot air
into a tornado, sucking all the hot ki upward and leaving a
blast of cold ki to follow it, like a pressure gun. The
blast hits the opponents and does LOTS of damage. Then they
are flung out of the tornado and sent skyward.
Now, the winds of the Tornado -itself- are not all that
damaging... as evidenced by the fact that Akane can survive
within them. It is the center of the vortex that is really
damaging and the fact is that the target is ussually in the
center. This explains how a Hiryushotenha can KO Happousai
and not do permanent damage to Akane since she was only ever
in the vortex. Lime, however, was not.
> >Ranma did a -slight- injury to Tarou. True that match never
> >went anywhere else but Ranma hardly had a commanding
> >advantage at that point.
>
> Pantsutaro was injured the next day, and went out of his way to
> hurt Ranma in the same way. If it is important enough to remember
> then it must have hurt. After all, he wasn't feeling very well
> and needed it bandaged (which Akane did). At any rate, note that
> this was about Ranma and improvisation. After all, I did state
> that in a colesium match Tarou would probably win.
I admit that Ranma is one of the best improviser out there.
The fact is, we simply see -more- of Ranma fighting than we
do of any of the others.
For example, it is impossible to know how much of Herb's
moves in the fight with Ranma were improvised on the spot.
He could have made most of them up right then and there.
However, we don't see enough of him to tell. The assumption
is he can do X however, for whatever reason. The only reason
we see more improv out of Ranma than any other fighter in
the manga is that he appears in more fights.
> >No, that isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the
> >funnel of "cold ki" that is trapped inside it, like a
> >pressure cannon that blasts those inside and is contained
> >within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado.
> Look, all that does it toss people up in the air and disorient
> them.
<...>
> Unless you have some evidence or examples to back yourself up I win
> this point.
Ryouga took a full one blast in the center of the twister in
that story. Later, as P-CHAN easily survivers the tornado
itself... Also note that Saffron take no damage from the
Hiryushotenha... despite being weak against physical (ie
blunt truama) attacks. This is because the cold pressure
blast was not enough to hurt him with his heat powers.
> >> Note that soon after this in the manga, Ranma is able to pull off
> >> a double MKTBS against Hinako. Presumably he can put those into
> >> a single blow to do lots of damage.
>
> >Uh, no. He's just holding a small sphere in both hands.
> >Presumably these are no more powerful than a regular sphere.
>
> Umm... IIRC, then those were fully the size of a person when they
> got to Hinako (who absorbed them).
Each one, I meant, is no bigger than a regular
Mokotakabisha. This just means he fired the same move out of
two hands. No reason to believe that it would do any more
damage when "staked together" than normal. Remember, the
size of the Mokotakabisha hardly matters as you only get hit
by a small part of it.
> >But if you want to count this as a variant...
>
> >RYOUGA uses several variant Shishihokodan's in his fight
> >with Ranma. Not only can he do the regular palm thrust, he
> >can perform it with an uppercut, a right cross and several
> >other moves. In other words, Ryouga could concievably use a
> >Shishihokodan with any form of fighting punch.
>
> And Ranma can use impatience (tanki), hesitation (maiyoki), and
> other forms as well. The sum total Ryouga was show as doing is
> the regular SSH, perfect SSH, uppercut and right cross. Since
> Ranma was no place near Ryouga's fist, it is just the same as
> regular SSH but possibly one handed, not a particular benefit here.
Yes and no. It means that Ryouga could easily combo out
several blows in rapid succession, which he did. Besides,
Ryouga uses several types of depression to fuel his blasts
as well. Just general Ryouga depression, depression over
losing to ranma, depression over beeing tricked by Ranma and
so on.
> >That is exactly the proof. In Ranma worst moments (like when
> >he thinks Akane is dead) he is not as depressed as Ryouga is
> >in his worst moments (like when he thinks he is dead).
>
> >Proof is in the pudding, as they say.
>
> So it is just a matter of degree of emotion. Perhaps if Ranma
> wound up thinking he is dead he would be able to pull off a
> nasty perfect SSH? Of course we haven't seen Ranma in many
> worst moments, he tends to win way before that.
Ranma just doens't get depressed in his worst moments. Ranma
gets mad.
> >> Fine, show where other people have improvised or made up new
> >> moves. I have some of my evidence below.
>
> I note that you do not refute any of my evidence.
Uh, of course not. I've never said Ranma isn't able to
improvise. I just don't think he's all the great, all things
considered.
> >Ryouga has improvised new Shishihokodan's in mid-fight with
> >Ranma in their first re-match in the SHD story.
>
> If you believe that all of them are variations. They just look
> like regular SSHs to me. He did learn to do them one handed is
> the way I took it to mean. And I'll give him credit for that.
(shrug) No worse than Ranma doing one in both hands. Ie, two
one handed attacks.
> Ryuu has
> >performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
> >powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
> >Kijin Raishu Dan.
>
> Regular and "highest level" KJRSD. Same as Ryouga and regular
> and perfect (and no other variants) for the SSH. No sign of
> innovation for Ryuu here I'm sorry to say.
Uh, what about the Kijin Dai Ran Bu? The one where he spins
around in place (not leaping) and slashes out in all
directions? Also note that his accuracy and power improve as
he continues to use the move. At first it leaves jagged cuts
and later it makes razor fine slashes.
> He has also came up with a variant of his
> >Golden Rope Binding Soar (forget the Japanese) which allowed
> >him to spin it over his head and snap it in place around
> >Ranma's neck and multiple other variants on his moves in
> >that fight.
>
> I'll grant you this one. Also remember that Ranma reinvented
> most of the Umisenken from the one session his father showed
> him.
But we all know that this isn't improvement. It's justr
copying ne?
In other words, why should Ranma adapting Genma's moves to
win be any different than Ryouga adapting Ranma's moves to
win? Seems like a double standard to me.
> Tarou doesn't USE special techniques but in
> >monster form was easily able to adapt his ink-shooting
> >ability to block a stream of hot water.
>
> This is innovation?
(shrug) Like I said, Tarou doens't yell out move names and
do specials. Not his style. Saying Ranma is better than him
because he does is spurious logic.
> Ryouga adapted the
> >Bakusaitenketsu from a move which directly attacks the
> >opponent to an attack meant to send a shower of rocks at his
> >enemy.
> That's just a side effect of the bakusaitenketsu. Designed
> in from the start, nothing new. Bakusaitenketsu never ever
> directly attacked the opponent, Cologne stated as much.
Ryouga was, at the time, under a different impression.
> > He also changed the move so that instead of producing
> >a fine shower of shards he could create a blast of giant
> >stones.
> When? It has always produced large shards, unless he uses
> it some place geologically unstable and prone to avalanches
> of large rocks (i.e. the mountain at the end of the Herb
> storyline).
Uh, no. In the original fight it produced small sharp
frgaments (small enough to fit in Ranma palm). In the
saffron fight he uses it to produce boulder big enough for
Ranma to hide behind.
> Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
> >blocking shield.
>
> I don't remember this actually. When? He usually uses his
> umbrella to block.
Koi Rod story.
<snip hold>
> >The list goes on and on...
>
> I saw two things of innovation in you list with a possible third.
> I'm afraid that doesn't match Ranma.
Like I said. Ranma gets more because he fights more. On a
per fight basis, ranma ussually comes up with one, maybe two
variants.
> >Herb used the technique once in their final fight. It took
> >down Ranma easily. After that he never used it again,
> >prefering to try a variety of more lethal techniques such as
> >the Hitou Ryuzan Ha and so on. This is how Ranma got the
> >opportunity to use the HSH. If Herb had stuck to the tactic
> >of using only that move, Ranma would have had no counter to
> >it.
>
> I doubt that. He caught Ranma totally off guard the first time.
> By the third time Ranma figured out what it did (ki blasts off the
> ground). Once Ranma knows where it is coming from he can dodge
> it.
Ranma knew that -before- he flung himself at Herb. Herb
-still- got Ranma with it. That is the point. And no, the
move is no -different- in Herb's male form... just much more
POWERFUL.
> >This is what I mean yes. I will conceede that fights in
> >which you have no clue what your opponent is capable of will
> >often turn out one-sided.
>
> Which is how Ryouga won against Ranma when Ryouga learned the SSH.
This does not explain the rematch later.
> >Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
> >After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
> >no superhuman healing factor after all.
>
> Neither does Ryouga. Or for that matter Ranma.
Yes he does.
First (documentable) appearance was in the Shampoo story,
where they literally beat Ranma until he is black and blue
and Ranma recovers in seconds. Also not that Takahashi often
puts a sort of "hash" design over injuries, that is you can
tell were a person is hurt because they will have a
darknened spot on them. This dissapears within panels in
Ranma 1/2. Ranma also recieves a cut against Ryuu (slash
along his forearm) that is healed up and invisible seconds
later.
> >So? This only proves that Ryouga can learn and adapt from
> >the styles his opponents use against him.
>
> It isn't innovation. It's just copying.
So, you've just eliminated 90% of Ranma's moves as in any
way admisable for him being good. After all, he "copied" the
AGK, he copied the HSH he "copied" the martial gymnastics...
> >In fact, it is
> >specifically stated that the SHD is not a combat technique
> >originally and that Ryouga had to "revise" it in order to
> >make it combat worthy. So really all that scroll said was
> >"get depressed."
>
> Sigh... Bakusaitenketsu isn't a combat move either. Ryouga even says
> that if it can blow rocks away, it should be able to blow Ranma away.
The fact that it isn't a combat move and that Ryouga can
adapt it to one is pretty good. If you've ever practiced
martial arts, you know how difficult it is to use -actual-
moves to hurt an opponent, much less mve not meant to hurt
people.
> There is no indication that SSH needs any modification to use against
> people.
All we have to go on is what is said, and that is what is
said.
> >The fact he used it the first time he did was
> >a fluke.
> After all, Cologne even goes and says, "Darn,
> I forgot to tell him the final move." Ranma figures it out for
> himself and Cologne says, "He figured it out for himself." i.e.
> it wasn't a fluke that he pulled the move off.
Ranma -admits- it was a fluke.
> >As for the three days thing... well Ryouga has only ever
> >learned two "specials" so he have no third special from
> >around the same time to compare the two at.
>
> In the mean time Ranma has learned the Hiryuushotenha, the Kachuutenshi
> Amaguriken, the Umisenken, the Mokotakabisha, the Shishihokodan (not
> the perfect version, though he's figured out how Ryouga does it), and
> came up with a fair number of variations on several of the moves.
You miss my point. We have seen Ranma learn more because
Ranma has had -opportunity- and -incentive- to learn more.
Ryouga has not had nearly so many opportuinities nor
incentives. When we -do- compare the two, in terms of move
adapation on a similar playing field they tend to come out
about even. That is, in the two instances I have mentioned.
Sure Ranma learned the Umisenken fast, but we haven't seen
Ryouga get attacked by the Umisenken so we don't know
whether he could do the same.
> >Also remember, that special moves are NOT the be all and end
> >all of Ranma martial arts. They are like a punch or a kick,
> >useful, but knowing how to use one or the other when your
> >opponent doens't will not gaurentee your victory.
> No, but having more options always helps. And you make a good point,
> remember that most of these attacks have their weak points. For
> example, Ryouga's perfect SSH only works near ground zero.
Which is why he doens't rely on it that much. ;p
> >> >Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
> >> >must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
> >> >Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
> >When did Ranma KO Ryouga in that fight? Ryouga was not
> >exactly pounding Ranma around, but then again, he wasn't
> >easily putmanuevering Ranma. That match seemed pretty even
> >really.
>
> Then that gives lie to your original statement.
No, it doesn't. It says they fought to two draws and then
one decisive Ryouga victory. Ie, Ryouga was beating Ranma up
till that point.
> >You forget Ranma's well-documented healing factor. For a
> >look at that check out the Tarou fight in volume 18. Tarou
> >takes an injury and a night later it hasn't healed. He then
> >give Ranma the same injury. In MINUTES Ranma has healed,
> >while Tarou is still injured.
>
> Really? Considering that you can't see Ranma's shoulder can you
> really say if Ranma has a healing factor or just compensates well.
You don't "compensate well" for fractured bones. The human
body can't -move-. Also note that Ryuu hits Ranma with an
attack that causes Ranma to bleed profusely and by the next
day he is fully healed (you see him barechested and the
attack was a gut shot).
> When did Ranma get this healing factor?
Issue 1? I don't know...
> It certainly wasn't
> around when he had his first fight with Ryouga (the initial cut he
> gets from Ryouga's thumb stays with him throughout the day.
Ranma's healing factor, like his speed and his strength,
improve as the story goes along.
> >Also, you only state those points salient to your position.
>
> Of course, if you had points salient to your position it is your
> job to bring them up.
>
> >The match-up situation was:
>
> >1) Ranma has taken one Merry-go-round attack. Not a big
> >factor as he was healed mostly by the time that fight
> >started.
>
> Considering that Ryouga was popping Ranma joints immediately
> before and during the fight, I don't see how you can say it
> was healed. Either way, Ranma is one tough bad-ass whether it
> is just toughness or a healing factor.
Mostly healed then.
> >2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
>
> Sigh, do you think Ryouga is tougher than Mousse? If Mousse could
> beat Ranma due to speed, strength, and reach considerations (before
> Ranma learned distance attacks and the Amaguriken) then Ryouga
> would have wiped the floor with Ranma's female form. Agility didn't
> matter as much in that case.
Actaully it did quite a bit because most of that battle was
fought in the air. Where, as you have stated, Ranma has the
decisive edge. Agility in the air counts quite a bit,
especially when all you have to do is make sure your
opponent is knocked off course.
> >3) Ranma has learned how to skate, Ryouga has not.
>
> Why is that? Why does it matter much after Ryouga destroys the
> ice part of the pool? After all, Ryouga specifically destroys the
> ice rink to lessen his non-skating disadvantage.
Ryouga still has to stand on the ice.
> >4) Ryouga was, essentially, fighting -three- people, not
> >just Ranma.
>
> Not really. There is just one attack he makes against Mikado after
> Azusa jumps onto him. The rest of the time he is just going after
> Ranma. Mikado and Azusa leave the rink almost immediately after
> that, the only real move they had before that was the Merry-Go-Round
> attack.
Still, Ryouga was being attacked by three people for a
while, Ranma was not. During this he was still able to
coldclock Ranma.
> >5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
> >meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
>
> True. But he took advantage of Ranma's misunderstanding that Ryouga
> was going to fight against Mikado first.
Ryouga challenged Ranma. If Ranma misunderstood that then
Ranma is an idiot.
> >6) Akane was interfering, but her interference could have
> >been inhibitng to both. She just threw a chunk of ice, not
> >at ranma in particular.
>
> No, she threw one at Ranma in particular, Ryouga took advantage
> of it to land a kick on Ranma, and one at both which hit both.
Ah, Okay, I'd forgotten that. I only remembered the first
one. Still, the second Ryouga recovered from better.
> >When, exactly, did Mousse beat it? As far as I recall, Ranma
> >outmanuevered and defeated Mousse in that fight.
>
> No, Ranma didn't beat Mousse until Dr. Tofu hit his old-man
> <something> spot, and Ranma could be splashed with hot water.
Didn't Ranma get reverted back to girl before the fight
ended? I can't remember it's been years since I read that.
> >Ranma uses the Amaguriken everytime he fights. He doens't
> >-shout- Amaguriken however, but there are several times
> >against both that he uses the "blurred fist" attack.
>
> I count him using it in one fight against Ryouga. You'll have
> to point me to other examples. If the Amaguriken makes Ranma
> stronger and faster then Ryouga uses the Bakusaitenketsu every
> time he fights because it made him tougher. I guess that evens
> out.
Ranma has two openings after the Amaguriken battle. A leap
attack and a charging Amaguriken. He uses both about
equally.
> He also learned
> >the Shishihokodan and had no intention of challngeing Ranma
> >with it seriously, he only wanted to try it out and see how
> >well he had adapted it. It was only when Ranma insisted on
> >fighting him that Ryouga turned it into a slugfest.
>
> Um... in the manga, Ryouga said, "I don't have much confidence
> in it, but if you'll help me try it out." i.e. Ryouga was
> specifically planning to use it against Ranma.
He was planning on using it against Ranma, but was not
planning on making this a formal fight. As you may not from
his surprised expression and his sudden acceptance of
Ranma's roar of challenge when Ranma's coming back.
> >Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
> >several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
> >a bit by surprise.
>
> Where is this? Is this the part where Ryouga threatens to beat
> Ranma up so that Ranma will go away? The part where Ranma goes
> to male form and starts pounding away in a fight Ryouga started.
Ryouga tries to shove away Ranma and calls him some bad
names which makes Ranma go ballistic on him and attack.
> Later, Ranma attacks but Ryouga deflects
> >and beats him without a "special" attack.
>
> You'll have to be more specific.
Ranma flings a small cupped string at Ryouga. Ryouga
deflects the string and manages to redirect it so it hits a
small target on Ranma's chest.
> >> Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
> >> about Akane?
>
> >Ryouga, Konatsu and a few others are regulars that are
> >better than him.
>
> Ryouga? Maybe, if he's just learned a special techinque or Ranma
> isn't to the top of his form. Konatsu? I don't see any evidence
> that Konatsu can hang in during a long fight with Ranma.
Aside from doing just that in his first appearance?
> >Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
> >called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
> >generation.
> No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
> difference.
Kunoichi are female assasins... ie, martial artists.
> He is a fighter that only comes about once every
> >thousand years. No claims to that effect were ever made
> >about Ranma. (Of course, Konatsu can reverse time and create
> >body doubles of himself and other things that not even
> >-HERB- showed himself able to do...)
>
> You mean bunshin no jitsu? There is no indication that it was for
> anything more than comedy purposes. I don't see Konatsu use it
> in a fight, against Ranma, for example. What reverse time technique?
He uses it in his second appearance. I don't have the manga
handy.
> >Also stop putting words in mouth. I claimed no such things.
>
> You said that:
> >> >Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
> >> >hardly even the best among the normal people around the
> >> >series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
> >> >twice.
>
> I was just attempting to clear up whether Kuno and Akane were
> not "normal" people. AFAIK, Kuno and Akane are among the best
> normal humans there are in the series.
By "normal" I meant "regular cast and crew that hang out in
Nerima".
> >The "Magic Soap" storyline contains some examples.
>
> You'll have to be specific. Do you mean Ryouga hiding the soap in
> someplace not entirely obvious? If that is tricky then Nabiki is
> an Einstein.
I never said it was wonderful, I said it was Ryouga
outsmarting Ranma.
> In the
> >Bakusaitenketsu story after Ranma uses the "block" Ryouga
> >tricks him into blocking again so that he can headbutt
> >Ranma.
>
> "Trick"? It was a good move, but Ranma often tricks Ryouga
> the same way, i.e. he "tricked" Ryouga into letting a bakusaitenketsu
> immediately below him so that he could knock Ryouga into the air,
> lock all his limbs, and use his Amaguriken variant to win the fight.
> So that one evens out then?
Pretty much. Which was my point. I mean, sure Ryouga got
KO'd in that fight but neither came up with anyhting more
innovative than the other.
> >The the Love Koi story he outsmarts Ranma on multiple
> >occasions.
>
> A love sick Ranma who would do anything for Ryouga, up to and
> including letting Ryouga kill him? Are you sure that is not
> just trust and infatuation as opposed to Ryouga tricking Ranma.
No worse than a lovesick Ryouga who is starved for affection
and takes hope in any girl that approaches him.
> >Need I go on?
>
> Yes actually.
Fine, I'll see if I can dig up more examples for my next
reply.
> >A yes, "Ranma will win because he will", the last defense.
> >Frankly, I can't agrue with that logic. I'll merelt point
> >out that it is circular, thus flawed, thus inadmissable.
>
> I'll merely point out that Ranma is written as the best martial artist
> in the manga. This may not be what you like, but if he wins 80+% of
> his fights against all these monsters,
No he doesn't. Ranma has, at best, a 50/50 win lose record.
At worst, a 40/60.
> then he is a better martial
> artist than Ryouga according to Takahashi. You are free to dislike it
> or write your own variants, but in those cases it will be "Ryouga will
> win because he will". i.e. you don't have a leg to stand on any more
> than I do.
I say Ryouga will win because I like to base these on a
theoretical "stadium fight" as you call it. Ie, I take what
they have been shown to be able to do, put both in a stadium
where there are no mitigating circumstances and let them go
at it.
> >Tarou doesn't have Ranma's healing factor, and the shot
> >which KO'd him hit him in roughly the same spot. I think
> >that counts. Also, he won with the help of Akane, which
> >means he -didn't- win on his own, which proves my point.
>
> I don't remember seeing a healing factor in any of the series.
Look closer. It's there, in several instances.
> Second was on the cliffside. Here Tarou
> >cheats outrageously (yes, I admit it) HOWEVER he does
> >demonstrate that he is much faster and smarter than Ranma
> >anyway.
>
> I'm suprised that you admit he cheated... that wasn't what you
> were saying about a year or so ago.
People change.
> How is he faster if Ranma
> can keep Tarou from getting wet for what appears to be quite a
> while.
No, I refer here specifically to a move he did wherin Ranma
attacke dhim with all speed and Tarou had time to slip
sideways, lean against a wall and chuckle evilly by the time
Ranma hit said wall.
> It is quite possible that Tarou is more cunning and maybe
> even street smart than Ranma is. I'll also note that this is not
> equivalent to straight out intelligence.
Einstien could qoute physics, wouldn't do him much good in a
fight. Intelligence, in a fight, is the concept of strategy
and tactics. Which Tarou uses better than Ranma, who just
tends to make things up as he goes along.
> Third is in the same volume, where Happousai goes
> >monster and attacks Tarou in human form. Tarou takes a hit
> >but isn't KO'd, which is more than Ranma has ever done.
> Umm... well... I'll point out that Ranma is conscious several times
> after Happosai attacks him. After all, Ranma comes back at least
> three times the first few times Happosai uses his pipe trick on Ranma.
I'm refering to Happousai's battleaura here.
> >Fourth is in Ashura story
<snip>
> >Tarou was winning on the defensive.
>
> >It is a fallacy of tactical thinking to presume you can't
> >win on the defensive.
>
> True, but it does leave you in the weaker position. Tarou
> had the tactical defensive and strategic offensive, which is
> a great way to win.
And from the weaker positon he was winning. ;p
> >Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
> >of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
> >and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
> >when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
>
> Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
> the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
> you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
I am not, I still believe Tarou is better than Ranma. But
for different, and wholly more logical and proveable,
reasons.
> It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
> And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
> fighters were capable of.
?
Anand, my opinions on the various characters has changed
over the years.
<snip my fanfic>
Let's just say you're wrong, the answer you want is spoilers
for the series, and leave it at that.
> >Uh-huh. This explains why the Umisenken has the following
> >moves.
>
> >1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
> >teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
> >in a rope while.
>
> I thought that was a Ranma innovation. It certainly wasn't stealing
> anything.
(shake head) This is a fallacy here. The arts may be
"thieves arts" but they are also fighting arts, martial arts
with uses as martial arts.
> >2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
> >little more.
>
> Don't you mean any bear hug type move? Or are you claiming that it
> would be 100% ineffective against other types of bear hugs.
Utterlly ineffective? No. As effective? Probably not. That
move was designed to use a weakness in Ryuu's bearhug (the
fact that he gripped only one of Ranma's arms, a mistake on
Ryuu's part).
> >3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
>
> Really, I thought that it was an innovation on Ranma's part. After
> all, I don't remember the Tendo dojo's floor being sucked up into the
> air or buried under the dirt, which would have happened if Genma had
> used the move, right? i.e. Ranma made it up.
Nope, this was written on that letter that Ranma got from
his mother. Else, why would he -bring- a tablecloth to the
fight in the first place, seeing as how he had never seen
nor heard of the Kijin Raishu Dan at this point?
> >Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
> >Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
> >countermove for the Yamasenken.
>
> Yeah right. They are both techniques for stealing. They originally
> weren't supposed to be martial arts at all. Please remember what the
> conversation they were having after Ryuu left was about, and why
> Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken. Umisenken is the superior art for
> stealing. I'll say it as many times as I need to. Ranma practiced
> the parts of Umisenken that he needed to counter Yamasenken and added
> the counters he had devised to the Yamasenken.
There techniques designed to let martial artists steal. They
are martial techniques, in the same way that the
Shishihokodan is.
> >The Dragon Spirit Acension Soar? Ranma never showed any
> >ability to counter that... ever.
> No, but he figured out where it came from. After all, the move is
> different in Herb's male form than it is in his female form. Which
> is why he was able to get away with it 4 times.
It didn't work differently, it was just more powerful. Which
Herb warned Ranma about beforehand.
> >Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
> I disagree with your second statement.
Obviously.
<??? The rest of the article went into oblivion on me...>
--------------
Epsilon
Bryan McNerney
>> difference.
>Kunoichi are female assasins... ie, martial artists.
Do you know how Kunoichi assassinated their victims? They seduced them
then killed them in their sleep, how does that make one a powerful
martial artist?
Also if Ryouga under normal conditions is so much better than Ranma why
did he choose Ranma to come to when he had the invincible tattoo, which
BTW he wanted until he saw how silly it looked.
stanlee
> >> No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
> >> difference.
>
> >Kunoichi are female assasins... ie, martial artists.
>
> Do you know how Kunoichi assassinated their victims? They seduced them
> then killed them in their sleep, how does that make one a powerful
> martial artist?
>
> Also if Ryouga under normal conditions is so much better than Ranma why
> did he choose Ranma to come to when he had the invincible tattoo, which
> BTW he wanted until he saw how silly it looked.
>
The way I see it, Ryoga and Ranma are pretty equal.
The reason Takahashi centered on Ranma is because
he's more interesting than Ryoga.
And that bad things happen to him because
people tend to root for underdogs, not invincible supermen.
Nevertheless, I discussed this with some of my friends
who do study martial arts (who then also asked their masters
- mostly for fun and curiosity, not debates).
Anyhow, as martial artists, they like Ryoga because
of his determination while Ranma is sorta like
the ordinary guy with inconsistent determination.
However, surprisingly one of the masters thought
that if he had to choose which one to train,
he would choose Ranma. Sure, it would be tougher
to straighten him up like a good "soldier,"
but if he does reach the same determination as Ryoga,
he shows more potential, especially since he's
already smarter (like street smarts) than Ryoga
- or more appropriately, "less stupid" since
the master thinks the charas are all wacky. ^_^
That's about it.
Laters. =)
Stan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sd0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/___ ___| |__|___| \ ___|
Hunter Kid
>In the same story, Ryouga, in his second fight with Lime, adapts his tactics and
>is beating Lime until Mousse interferes.
I agree with most of what you're saying. You know this. ;p
However, I still disagree that Ryouga was beating Lime. He'd hit Lime
twice, Lime had hit him once. He was keeping pace with Lime, and he
might or might not have ended up winning...but I don't think you can
say he was definitively winning at the time that Mint hit him.
Bob Macfie
Blade wrote:
>
> The fact is, Ranma's good, but he's hardly the best among his age
> group or in the series as a whole. He's high-level, but not top-
> level. Unless he has the odds greatly stacked in -his- favour, every
> one of the top ten fighters will beat him every time. And so they do, >in the manga.
>
While the debate seems to be going just fine without me, I did want to
ask about this idea of solid rankings based on performance against each
other.
As I believe Frank Wustner pointed out (and may all forgive me if I'm
wrong), a white belt can beat a black belt. This can occur for any num-
ber of reasons - some of which are merely circumstantial (illness or
distraction, for example). Others involve size, strength, age, or even
application of training from outside the field. (Okay, the latter would
probably get you disqualified in a tournament. Probably.) But sometimes
its a matter of differences of temperment.
Ideally, I would be able to prove this with a ranking of great fighters
and show where exceptions exist. Unfortunately, my knowledge of these
warriors is limited. I regret that this means I shall be required to
resort to a form of conflict that I am more familiar with, and hope that
you will find it an acceptable comparison. (If not, you know where to
find me.)
The form of competition is chess. There is a clear international rating
system in place, so it is not hard to tell who is the strongest player
in the world. However, neither of the two players playing for the title
of world champion this year are ranked in the top 30. (To be fair, about
half of the top 10 didn't enter the competition, but it doesn't invali-
date the imbalance of the result.)
There are some examples of a master whose results against a particular
grandmaster are very different than their respective performances than
against the world at large. Unfortunately, I do not have any specific
examples of this, so I must one again beg your indulgence as I give you
an example from my own personal experience.
My own Canadian rating is in the low 1600s, what used to be a B-rating.
This suggests that I should lose at least 3 games in 4 against an expert
(rated 2000 or above) - and yet there is one expert that I have held to
an even score over the past two years. If it weren't for the fact that
there are a couple of B-players (rated 1400-1600) who have plus scores
against me (one of them still has a perfect score, damn his annoying
hide), I might even be ranked higher.
So my point is that it is remotely possible that - for example - Mousse
or Kuno are far better martial artists than would be suggested by their
performance against the few martial artists we've seen them fight.
Okay, those two may have been poor examples. But my point is that the
fights between Ranma and Ryoga aren't necessarily valid in determining
their respective chances against any other opponents. Consider or reject
this argument as you see fit.
And now, back to the regular show.
Bob Macfie
Hunter Kid
(Sorry I'm so slow responding to your messages; I've been busy with
school. ;p I'll get back to you on the koi rod stuff later, I
promise.)
>> >Okay, just for more Ranma & Ryoga discussion since that
>> >seems to be the topic of the moment =)
>>
>> Why do people want this thread to return again? It was
>bad enough the
>> first 50 times around...
>
>But they're sooo fun =P
Ye gods, man...
>> No, he has the umisenken. He has _not_ learned the
>yamasenken, and I
>> don't think he could have picked it up from simply being
>attacked with
>> it a couple times, especially since it's an entirely
>different
>> fighting style than he's used to.
>
>He totally understood the premises of the two techniques
>and was even *teaching* Ryuu what those were as they
>fought. He understood what the yamasenken was all about and
>yet, Ryuu who has been practising it for God knows how
>long, didn't.
My volume 28 seems to have vanished... >_<#
But IIRC, Ryuu understood the yamasenken just fine. And Genma
explained what the premises of the two techniques were, not Ranma -
which makes sense, given that he _was_ the guy who created them.
> Look how long it took him to figure
>> out the SSH, and that was juts focusing chi, something he
>knew how to
>> do anyway.
>
>How long did it take him to learn umisenken? *One* showing
>from Genma!
It took him quite a bit of training to be able to use the techniques.
And he had the scroll, of course, which he would not have for the
yamasenken.
>And don't forget, the yamasenken *is* a Saotome
>technique too.
That means little. It's a far different type of fighting than Ranma's
used to.
>And the SSH is because well, he's not depressed enough to
>use it. If he was depressed as Ryoga all the time, he would
>have learnt that move much much quicker.
But the point is that it took him pretty long just to figure out what
made the SSH work. The yamasenken is a _lot_ more complex than a ki
blast.
>After all, Ryuu and his father learnt the technique through
>*scrolls*. It's important understanding the principles of
>it that lets you use the techs. This was proved by Ranma
>learning the umisenken by understanding the fundamentals
>which is that of the 'sneak thief'. I'd doubt the
>yamasenken is totally different.
The yamasenken is based off a robber coming in through the front door,
as Genma told it. The umisenken is a lot better suited to Ranma's
style of fighting than the yamasenken is.
>> >I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
>> >Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
>> >could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would
>use
>> >them.
>>
>> He wouldn't. Akane's life was on the line in volume 38,
>yet he didn't
>> so much as think of using the umisenken.
>
>But he overcame it a different way. If Ranma knew the
>*only* way he could win and save Akane was by using the
>techs, he would use them.
I disagree. The two techniques haven't been so much as mentioned
since volume 28, regardless of the danger that everyone's in. But
even if you were right, Ranma has to be calm to use the umisenken, as
someone else pointed out. If Akane's in danger, he's not going to be
calm.
>> The perfect SSH is not as strong as the White Snake Venom
>Reliable
>> Fist; Ranma could take several hits from it and keep
>going, one attack
>> from Genma put Ranma out like a light. However, the PSSH
>has the
>> advantage of being an area-blast attack, so it's
>_possible_ that he
>> could take out Ranma before he could hit him. Doubtful,
>though.
>
>The umiseken will make him invisible to Ryoga so he
>wouldn't know how to hit him. Ranma'd just have to wait out
>of range and then strike when he was vulnerable.
But Ryouga _would_ be able to hit him when he attempted to use the
white snake venom reliable fist, because he'd then know where he is.
For what it's worth, though, I'm pretty sure Ranma would be the victor
if he was using the umisenken.
>> However, the key question is how much damage the
>umisenken could
>> inflict on Ryouga. Most of the techniques are useless,
>being merely
>> counters to the yamasenken. Ryuu took two White Snake
>Venom Reliable
>> Fist attacks and kept fighting at full strength, but it
>could be that
>> Ryuu's simply tougher than Ryouga; there's not enough
>data to know for
>> sure.
>
>Ryuu is *strong*, there's no doubt about that. Okay, Ryuu
>VS Ryoga ... who would win? =P
Ryuu. (Assuming he gets to use the yamasenken, of course.) Nothing
short of Ryouga doing a PSH is going to faze Ryuu, and Ryouga's slower
than Ranma. I see a bloody finish with Ryouga's heart being ripped
out.
>> But in any case, Ranma would not use the umisenken, so
>its a moot
>> point.
>
>But what if he did? That was the premise. I'm tempted about
>writing fics with Ranma using those techs.
What if he did? He'd beat Ryouga, most likely. If the premise is
that he also knows the yamasenken, Ryouga's just doomed and that's the
end of it; what can he possibly do against a guy that sneaks up on
him, invisible, and rips his heart out?
> And that means Ryouga would win -- Ryouga's strongest PSSH,
>> recall, was the one in volume 24 that took out Lime, who
>is a _lot_
>> tougher than Ranma, in one shot. It took the thought of
>him being
>> dead and Ranma and Akane together to bring him to that
>point. In the
>> scenario you've outlined, this is recreated and Ryouga's
>PSSH reaches
>> that tremendous strength again.
>
>But the PSSH doesn't have *that* much range does it?
I think Ryouga can control the range, at least to some extent. The
one he used on Lime formed a small but deep crater, and the ones in
vol. 20, IIRC, are shallower but wider.
>And
>Ranma knows how to exploit the weakness of it.
I really doubt Ryouga would fall for that a second time.
Bryan McNerney
>>Ranma knows how to exploit the weakness of it. (PSSH)
>I really doubt Ryouga would fall for that a second time.
Actually due to the nature of the technique he would fall for it
everytime throwing the PSSH makes him 'willess' ergo defenseless to
Ranma doing the finishing attack he used to defeat Ryouga in the SSH
story arc. It is a catch-22 either he gets smashed by his own attack or
by Ranma, either way the PSSH is fatally flawed against anyone capable
of positioning himself as Ranma did.
Donny Cheng
Hunter Kid wrote:
>
> Karin Kanzuki <karinkanzu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> No, he has the umisenken. He has _not_ learned the
> >yamasenken, and I
> >> don't think he could have picked it up from simply being
> >attacked with
> >> it a couple times, especially since it's an entirely
> >different
> >> fighting style than he's used to.
> >
> >He totally understood the premises of the two techniques
> >and was even *teaching* Ryuu what those were as they
> >fought. He understood what the yamasenken was all about and
> >yet, Ryuu who has been practising it for God knows how
> >long, didn't.
>
> My volume 28 seems to have vanished... >_<#
>
> But IIRC, Ryuu understood the yamasenken just fine. And Genma
> explained what the premises of the two techniques were, not Ranma -
> which makes sense, given that he _was_ the guy who created them.
No, Ryu did not understand the exact nature of the technique. He did
not know the two techniques were based on quiet and noisy robbers
respectively. Genma may have explained it, but Ranma understood what
premise was and thus was able to train for it, he could not have done so
otherwise.
> > Look how long it took him to figure
> >> out the SSH, and that was juts focusing chi, something he
> >knew how to
> >> do anyway.
> >
> >How long did it take him to learn umisenken? *One* showing
> >from Genma!
>
> It took him quite a bit of training to be able to use the techniques.
> And he had the scroll, of course, which he would not have for the
> yamasenken.
Ryu thought that he could understand the Umisenken if he saw Ranma
perform it based on his knowledge of the other art. I don't see why
Ranma could not do the same. I would not be surprised that now that Ryu
knows the real premise of the two arts, he could think up of training
similar to Ranma's and learn the art himself. By that idea, also, if
Ranma wanted to, he could think up of a training program to pull his own
version of the Yamasenken.
> >And don't forget, the yamasenken *is* a Saotome
> >technique too.
>
> That means little. It's a far different type of fighting than Ranma's
> used to.
No, while Ranma stubbornly sticks to his free flowing style most of the
time to the point of repeating the same mistakes against opponent after
opponent, he has shown that he is willing to change his style. Against,
Mikado in the first battle, Ranma being limited by mobility on skates
had to use brute force to win. During, the gymnastics match, he forced
himself to use weapons to defeat both Ryoga and Kodachi which he would
have won easily if he could fight barehanded. If push came to shove, I
think Ranma could adapt to the Yamasenken style.
> >And the SSH is because well, he's not depressed enough to
> >use it. If he was depressed as Ryoga all the time, he would
> >have learnt that move much much quicker.
>
> But the point is that it took him pretty long just to figure out what
> made the SSH work. The yamasenken is a _lot_ more complex than a ki
> blast.
Not really, Genma did design it afterall. ^_^ And I would say the
Umisenken is takes even more complex in its subtleness. Once Ranma
knows the premise and happens to have knowledge of the counterattacks, I
honestly can not see why he or Ryu could not figure out their respective
opposing techniques.
> >After all, Ryuu and his father learnt the technique through
> >*scrolls*. It's important understanding the principles of
> >it that lets you use the techs. This was proved by Ranma
> >learning the umisenken by understanding the fundamentals
> >which is that of the 'sneak thief'. I'd doubt the
> >yamasenken is totally different.
>
> The yamasenken is based off a robber coming in through the front door,
> as Genma told it. The umisenken is a lot better suited to Ranma's
> style of fighting than the yamasenken is.
Whether or not it's suited for him is not really an issue as much as
whether or not Ranma _can_ learn it, which I would have to agree and say
he could. Besides, get Ranma angry enough, and he will adopt a more
confrontational approach in most fights.
> >> >I'd think that if he thought it was truly possible that
> >> >Akane's life was on the line and it was the only way he
> >> >could win, despite the techs being forbidden he would
> >use
> >> >them.
> >>
> >> He wouldn't. Akane's life was on the line in volume 38,
> >yet he didn't
> >> so much as think of using the umisenken.
> >
> >But he overcame it a different way. If Ranma knew the
> >*only* way he could win and save Akane was by using the
> >techs, he would use them.
>
> I disagree. The two techniques haven't been so much as mentioned
> since volume 28, regardless of the danger that everyone's in. But
> even if you were right, Ranma has to be calm to use the umisenken, as
> someone else pointed out. If Akane's in danger, he's not going to be
> calm.
Besides which, as demonstrated, Ranma needed to train before he could do
the umisenken. Ranma might be able to pull off similar yamasenken techs
without training, but it would not nearly be as destructive or effective
as Ryu's.
> >> The perfect SSH is not as strong as the White Snake Venom
> >Reliable
> >> Fist; Ranma could take several hits from it and keep
> >going, one attack
> >> from Genma put Ranma out like a light. However, the PSSH
> >has the
> >> advantage of being an area-blast attack, so it's
> >_possible_ that he
> >> could take out Ranma before he could hit him. Doubtful,
> >though.
> >
> >The umiseken will make him invisible to Ryoga so he
> >wouldn't know how to hit him. Ranma'd just have to wait out
> >of range and then strike when he was vulnerable.
>
> But Ryouga _would_ be able to hit him when he attempted to use the
> white snake venom reliable fist, because he'd then know where he is.
> For what it's worth, though, I'm pretty sure Ranma would be the victor
> if he was using the umisenken.
Ranma would just dart away again as he is faster than Ryoga and he is
not above using hit and run martial arts.
> >> However, the key question is how much damage the
> >umisenken could
> >> inflict on Ryouga. Most of the techniques are useless,
> >being merely
> >> counters to the yamasenken. Ryuu took two White Snake
> >Venom Reliable
> >> Fist attacks and kept fighting at full strength, but it
> >could be that
> >> Ryuu's simply tougher than Ryouga; there's not enough
> >data to know for
> >> sure.
> >
> >Ryuu is *strong*, there's no doubt about that. Okay, Ryuu
> >VS Ryoga ... who would win? =P
>
> Ryuu. (Assuming he gets to use the yamasenken, of course.) Nothing
> short of Ryouga doing a PSH is going to faze Ryuu, and Ryouga's slower
> than Ranma. I see a bloody finish with Ryouga's heart being ripped
> out.
Ryoga's endurance might make the battle last a little longer, but yeah,
unless he can pull off a PSH (even that won't be enough) Ryu wins
handily.
> >> But in any case, Ranma would not use the umisenken, so
> >its a moot
> >> point.
> >
> >But what if he did? That was the premise. I'm tempted about
> >writing fics with Ranma using those techs.
>
> What if he did? He'd beat Ryouga, most likely. If the premise is
> that he also knows the yamasenken, Ryouga's just doomed and that's the
> end of it; what can he possibly do against a guy that sneaks up on
> him, invisible, and rips his heart out?
It took Ryu a lifetime of training to get as strong as he was with the
yamasenken. While Ranma is superhuman in strength, I think he would
need some rather lengthy training to be able to get to the point where
he could do that to someone with the breaking point training such as
Ryoga.
> > And that means Ryouga would win -- Ryouga's strongest PSSH,
> >> recall, was the one in volume 24 that took out Lime, who
> >is a _lot_
> >> tougher than Ranma, in one shot. It took the thought of
> >him being
> >> dead and Ranma and Akane together to bring him to that
> >point. In the
> >> scenario you've outlined, this is recreated and Ryouga's
> >PSSH reaches
> >> that tremendous strength again.
> >
> >But the PSSH doesn't have *that* much range does it?
>
> I think Ryouga can control the range, at least to some extent. The
> one he used on Lime formed a small but deep crater, and the ones in
> vol. 20, IIRC, are shallower but wider.
The best Ryoga could do is control the range just before he fires it,
because once it's fired he suffers a moment of mind numbness.
> >And
> >Ranma knows how to exploit the weakness of it.
>
> I really doubt Ryouga would fall for that a second time.
He can't help but fall for it as that is the weakness of the PSH. Only
way would be if Ryoga wore earplugs or trained himself to ignore the
insults which is impossible given that Ryoga can't exactly think when
he's numb like that.
> --
> George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
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> "Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur."
--
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ICQ #: 13236148
Blade
>In article <37CB4B58...@ns.sympatico.ca>,
>Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
>>need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
>>Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
>>logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
>>care to know.
>Actually I have known you as a rude and insulting poster before.
>I should have killfiled you in this group as I did in r.a.a.misc
>before.
...so you respond by being more rude and insulting? Interesting.
BTW, I would like to hear some evidence to support your "rude and insulting"
argument.
>>I will try to address your actual points, those few times
>>you make one.
>
>You see what I mean. I'd prefer you attempt to insult me outright,
>rather than try and imply things through tricks of language. I can
>after all read, and I even know the meaning of irony and sarcasm.
Don't be insulting, and Aaron won't insult you in return. That's fairly simple
to understand, isn't it?
>>The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
>>used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
>>him into the air.
>
>It became an aerial fight when it turned out Saffron could fly,
>not when Ranma used the Hiryuushotenha.
Seems to me Ranma was on the ground until then. And remember, Saffron cannot
effectively attack anybody wielding the Gekkaja, which means Ryouga would be
largely in control.
>Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
>>thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
>>counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
>>happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
>>to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
>>bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
>>Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
>
>So you admit that Ryouga may not have won. The couple of times
Ryouga probably wouldn't. Even with the aid of the Gekkaja, Ryouga AND
Akane-doll, Ranma barely won.
Saffron is a god, pure and simple. That's a big difference to make up, even
with magical or other help.
>I've seen Ryouga in the air, he was put there by the
>Bakusaitenketsu (Bakusaitenketsu story arc) or in the opening
>fight when Ryouga first shows up (and he was mostly out of choices
>at that point).
He also took on Ranma in the air in the magic soap story, and did fine.
>>No, Ryouga was slowly wearing down Lime up till the point
>>where Mint smacked him in the back and stunned him long
>>enough for Lime to get a solid hit in. At that point Ryouga
>>had all but lost.
>
>He got all of three shots off... how that is wearing anyone down
>the way they fight is something I don't understand. Realize that
Look at Lime; he is bruised and obviously angry at Ryouga. Also, Ryouga was
getting confident aobut his strategy, which he normally doesn't do unless he's
winning.
>Mint revived Lime within minutes of Ryouga's super blow.
Uhh...Mint did no such thing. What the hell are you reading?
>>> >The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
>>> >good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
>
>>> Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
>
>>He was loosing the Lime because he was unlucky.
>
>Ryouga was losing to Lime the same way Ranma is always losing to
>Ryouga. Ryouga is specifically using Ranma's tactics so it can
>only result in the usual outcome of the fights between Ryouga and
>Ranma.
>
>Besides, as you like to say, luck has nothing do with it.
9_9
And you criticise Aaron for being sarcastic. Does the word "hypocrite" hold any
meaning for you, Chelian?
Ryouga was beating Lime because he was outsmarting and outmanouvring Lime. He
was NOT using Ranma's tactics, and never said he was. He specifically says he's
using the speed he's developed from his many fights with Ranma, and nothing
about tactics whatsoever. In fact, I defy you to find a fight in the manga
where Ranma does anything like what Ryouga was doing.
If you're going to argue from a story, it helps if you've actually READ the
story.
>>Ranma did a -slight- injury to Tarou. True that match never
>>went anywhere else but Ranma hardly had a commanding
>>advantage at that point.
>
>Pantsutaro was injured the next day, and went out of his way to
>hurt Ranma in the same way. If it is important enough to remember
>then it must have hurt. After all, he wasn't feeling very well
>and needed it bandaged (which Akane did). At any rate, note that
>this was about Ranma and improvisation. After all, I did state
>that in a colesium match Tarou would probably win.
Ranma is a good improvisor, there is no doubt of that. I'll even say that,
overall, he's a better improvisor than Ryouga. But Ryouga is hardly incompetent
at it, and Ranma's skill at improvisation does not and has not made up for the
fact that he is an utterly lousy strategist and tactician.
>>> As for Lime not feeling it, I'll note that the twister doesn't
>>> hurt much if there isn't debris in it, and it is the landing that
>>> hurts most in that case.
>>No, that isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the
>>funnel of "cold ki" that is trapped inside it, like a
>>pressure cannon that blasts those inside and is contained
>>within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado. The wind and
>>debris and landing do little damage. This is why Herb was
>>able to become immune to the Hiryushotenha by emitting cold
>>ki so that he was carried up inside of it.
>Look, all that does it toss people up in the air and disorient
>them. After all, Akane survived one with mussed hair and disarrayed
>clothes. Ranma when he was weak survived one, Lime, Mint, Herb,
>Mousse, Kuno, the principal, and Gosunkugi all survived one, only
>suffering a knock out. When Ranma was in the twister (defeating
>Happosai/Ranma weak story line), Ranma was hurt by the stuff in
>the twister not much by the twister itself. Unless you have some
>evidence or examples to back yourself up I win this point.
Aaron has already thoroughly refuted this. But I'll point out one thing: Ryouga
was ripped to shreds and nearly killed by being caught in the center. Obviously
it wasn't "being tossed up and disoriented" that did it, and just as obviously
the other people hadn't caught the full-on blast.
Also, if it was just wind and disorientation, what the HELL would Herb's
covering himself in cold chi do about it?
>>> >Ranma can not use the Shishihokodan as well as Ryouga.
>>> No, there is no proof of that. Ranma doesn't get as depressed as
>>> Ryouga does, that doesn't mean that he cannot use the SSH. It just
>>> means that he's not *usually* as effective as Ryouga is with it. He
>>> knows why Ryouga isn't harmed by the SSH, and he knows how Ryouga
>>> does the perfect SSH. After all, he took 4 blows from it and Ryouga
>>> gets knocked out in two.
>
>>That is exactly the proof. In Ranma worst moments (like when
>>he thinks Akane is dead) he is not as depressed as Ryouga is
>>in his worst moments (like when he thinks he is dead).
>
>>Proof is in the pudding, as they say.
>
>So it is just a matter of degree of emotion. Perhaps if Ranma
>wound up thinking he is dead he would be able to pull off a
>nasty perfect SSH? Of course we haven't seen Ranma in many
>worst moments, he tends to win way before that.
Ranma doesn't have Ryouga's neurotic hang-ups. Ranma gets mad, not depressed.
>>Ryouga has improvised new Shishihokodan's in mid-fight with
>>Ranma in their first re-match in the SHD story.
>If you believe that all of them are variations. They just look
>like regular SSHs to me. He did learn to do them one handed is
>the way I took it to mean. And I'll give him credit for that.
>
>Ryuu has
>>performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
>>powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
>>Kijin Raishu Dan.
>
>Regular and "highest level" KJRSD. Same as Ryouga and regular
>and perfect (and no other variants) for the SSH. No sign of
>innovation for Ryuu here I'm sorry to say.
You didn't read THAT story, either. Read it and then come back.
>He has also came up with a variant of his
>>Golden Rope Binding Soar (forget the Japanese) which allowed
>>him to spin it over his head and snap it in place around
>>Ranma's neck and multiple other variants on his moves in
>>that fight.
>
>I'll grant you this one. Also remember that Ranma reinvented
>most of the Umisenken from the one session his father showed
>him.
Ranma did nothing of the sort. He copied the moves his father used. Everything
else he learned from the scroll he got from Nodoka, as is specifically stated.
>Tarou doesn't USE special techniques but in
>>monster form was easily able to adapt his ink-shooting
>>ability to block a stream of hot water.
>
>This is innovation? I'd be more impressed if you had cited his
As much as using two Moko Takabishas.
>taking the chimney top off with his tentacles to clobber Ranma,
>there he used what was at hand to attack an opponent from an
>entirely new situation. Of course, Ranma got him into the chimney
>in the first place. I'm not sure most straight blocking techniques
>would be counted as innovations.
When Tarou can block Ranma's attacks in monster form at all, that's fairly
impressive, given the size and speed difference between the two. And in that
case, it was an important aid to his battle.
>Ryouga adapted the
>>Bakusaitenketsu from a move which directly attacks the
>>opponent to an attack meant to send a shower of rocks at his
>>enemy.
>That's just a side effect of the bakusaitenketsu. Designed
>in from the start, nothing new. Bakusaitenketsu never ever
>directly attacked the opponent, Cologne stated as much.
Bakusai ten ketsu was never an ATTACK, Cologne stated as much. Ryouga turned it
into one.
Comprendez-vous?
>Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
>>blocking shield.
>I don't remember this actually. When? He usually uses his
>umbrella to block.
Love Koi story, Volume 23, intergral to Ryouga's victory over Ranma.
>>The list goes on and on...
>I saw two things of innovation in you list with a possible third.
>I'm afraid that doesn't match Ranma.
How often does Ranma fight compared to everybody else? Quality over quantity.
The point is, other people when necessary, especially Ryouga, have improvised as
well or better than Ranma.
Incorrect on BOTH of your counts.
He caught Ranma totally off-guard the first time. Ranma was, as stated, already
pretty sure how it worked after that, but the water prevented it from coming out
the second time. The third time, Ranma was creamed due to Ranma charging at
Herb mindlessly. Ranma than explains how it works.
THEN HERB USES IT A FOURTH TIME LATER AND RANMA CANNOT DODGE.
Case closed.
>>> >In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
>>> Suprise my ass... Ryouga was the one who attacked Lime because
>>> Lime was carrying Akane away. If you mean that Ryouga was
>>> suprised by Lime's strength and toughness then fine.
>
>>This is what I mean yes. I will conceede that fights in
>>which you have no clue what your opponent is capable of will
>>often turn out one-sided.
>
>Which is how Ryouga won against Ranma when Ryouga learned the SSH.
But not either of the rematches, which Ryouga also won.
>>Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
>>After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
>>no superhuman healing factor after all.
>
>Neither does Ryouga. Or for that matter Ranma.
That's just stupid. Ranma's healing factor is extremely well-documented.
>>> Besides, if you'd paid attention, he is copying the tactics Ranma
>>> usually uses against him (and we know Ranma has never ever beaten
>>> Ryouga).
>
>>So? This only proves that Ryouga can learn and adapt from
>>the styles his opponents use against him.
>
>It isn't innovation. It's just copying.
Just like Ranma copied the Hiryuu Shoten Ha, the Shishi Hokodan, the Umisenken,
the Amaguriken, his entire martial arts style...?
Innovation is using what you've learned from others in new ways. And again,
Ryouga was not using Ranma's tactics at all.
>>> >Also, it took roughly a week to learn the Amaguriken. It
>>> >took Ryouga roughly the same time to learn the
>>> >Bakusaitenketsu. It took Ranma the same amount of time to
>>> >figure out the Mokotakbisha as it took Ryouga to figure out
>>> >the "perfect" Shishihokodan.
>>>
>>> Yeah, and Ranma had the benefit of scrolls and depression just
>>> like Ryouga did. Ryouga didn't have any help from Akane in
>>> getting depressed. Ranma figured out a new move almost from
>>> scratch in the time it took Ryouga to perfect a move. I guess
>>> you'll have to show me how Ryouga learns faster as you state
>>> below.
>
>>I'm sure that arrow was a big help to Ryouga. Ryouga asked
>>for Akane's help, that was the trigger of the move. He still
>>figured out the trigger himself. Also note that that scroll
>>did NOT talk about a combat technique. In fact, it is
>>specifically stated that the SHD is not a combat technique
>>originally and that Ryouga had to "revise" it in order to
>>make it combat worthy. So really all that scroll said was
>>"get depressed."
>
>Sigh... Bakusaitenketsu isn't a combat move either. Ryouga even says
>that if it can blow rocks away, it should be able to blow Ranma away.
>There is no indication that SSH needs any modification to use against
>people.
Except that it specifically says in the story it is not normally a weapon and
that most people can't use it like Ryouga does?
And that Ryouga had to adapt it to use it in a fight?
>>> >In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
>>> >from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
>>>
>>> Really... you know Ranma learned HRSTH in three days (you can look
>>> at the translation if you want). The most of it was learning to
>>> control his emotions, he figured out the basics of the move the
>>> first time he was shown it (hey, Ryouga has done that too, right,
>>> with BSTK, and the SSH -- oh, right, he was taught those two by
>>> other people).
>
>>Actually, Ranma didn't figure out the basics of the move. He
>>figured out the spiral pattern, but not how it worked or how
>>to set it off. The fact he used it the first time he did was
>>a fluke. ;p He still had plenty of help from Cologne
>>however.
>
>The most important part of the training was Ranma learning to keep
>his cool. Once he learned to do that and stay on the spiral he
>did the rest himself. After all, Cologne even goes and says, "Darn,
>I forgot to tell him the final move." Ranma figures it out for
>himself and Cologne says, "He figured it out for himself." i.e.
>it wasn't a fluke that he pulled the move off.
Ranma says it's a fluke, and I think he's in a better position to judge than
you.
>>As for the three days thing... well Ryouga has only ever
>>learned two "specials" so he have no third special from
>>around the same time to compare the two at.
>In the mean time Ranma has learned the Hiryuushotenha, the Kachuutenshi
>Amaguriken, the Umisenken, the Mokotakabisha, the Shishihokodan (not
>the perfect version, though he's figured out how Ryouga does it), and
>came up with a fair number of variations on several of the moves.
And yet Ryouga still beats him. Which just goes to show that fancy special
moves really don't mean shit if you're not as skilled as your opponent.
>>Also remember, that special moves are NOT the be all and end
>>all of Ranma martial arts. They are like a punch or a kick,
>>useful, but knowing how to use one or the other when your
>>opponent doens't will not gaurentee your victory.
>
>No, but having more options always helps. And you make a good point,
>remember that most of these attacks have their weak points. For example,
>Ryouga's perfect SSH only works near ground zero.
The Perfect SSH has many more weaknesses than that; which isn't even much of a
weakness if he gets really depressed, as Volume 24 shows very explicitly.
>>> >Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
>>> >must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
>>> >Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
>
>>> Really? When? It didn't look like Ryouga was pounding Ranma
>>> in the school yard fight, in fact, until Akane got stuck, it
>>> looked like Ranma was comfortably in charge.
>
>>?
>
>>When did Ranma KO Ryouga in that fight? Ryouga was not
>>exactly pounding Ranma around, but then again, he wasn't
>>easily putmanuevering Ranma. That match seemed pretty even
>>really.
>
>Then that gives lie to your original statement.
That was not the only fight the two had before the Amaguriken arc, I feel the
need to point out.
>>> Then of course there is the ice rink fight where Ryouga boldly
>>> takes on Ranma after Ranma has been smashed into the rink side by
>>> the Merry-Go-Round of Parting.
>>You forget Ranma's well-documented healing factor. For a
>>look at that check out the Tarou fight in volume 18. Tarou
>>takes an injury and a night later it hasn't healed. He then
>>give Ranma the same injury. In MINUTES Ranma has healed,
>>while Tarou is still injured.
>
>Really? Considering that you can't see Ranma's shoulder can you
>really say if Ranma has a healing factor or just compensates well.
You don't "compensate" for broken bones. Get a clue, Chelian.
(There. That unsubtle enough for you?)
>When did Ranma get this healing factor? It certainly wasn't
>around when he had his first fight with Ryouga (the initial cut he
>gets from Ryouga's thumb stays with him throughout the day.
As already noted, it improves throughout the series.
I note you didn't respond to his evidence. There's that hypocrisy again...
>>Also, you only state those points salient to your position.
>Of course, if you had points salient to your position it is your
>job to bring them up.
And your job, apparently, to completely ignore them?
>>The match-up situation was:
>
>>1) Ranma has taken one Merry-go-round attack. Not a big
>>factor as he was healed mostly by the time that fight
>>started.
>
>Considering that Ryouga was popping Ranma joints immediately
>before and during the fight, I don't see how you can say it
>was healed. Either way, Ranma is one tough bad-ass whether it
>is just toughness or a healing factor.
Not during the fight at all. And Ranma goes from not being able to stand up to
being able to do acrobatic manouvres. If that isn't clear enough evidence for
you...well, then you're being willfully dense and no amount of proof will
convince you to admit you're wrong.
>>2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
>Sigh, do you think Ryouga is tougher than Mousse? If Mousse could
>beat Ranma due to speed, strength, and reach considerations (before
>Ranma learned distance attacks and the Amaguriken) then Ryouga
>would have wiped the floor with Ranma's female form. Agility didn't
>matter as much in that case.
Except Ranma beat Mousse. Have dealt with this elsewhere.
>>3) Ranma has learned how to skate, Ryouga has not.
>Why is that? Why does it matter much after Ryouga destroys the
>ice part of the pool? After all, Ryouga specifically destroys the
>ice rink to lessen his non-skating disadvantage.
How does it matter? It matter during the DAMN MATCH, because Ryouga is still
wearing skates and still on ice. He even falls down at least once because of
this.
>>4) Ryouga was, essentially, fighting -three- people, not
>>just Ranma.
>Not really. There is just one attack he makes against Mikado after
>Azusa jumps onto him. The rest of the time he is just going after
>Ranma. Mikado and Azusa leave the rink almost immediately after
Wrong. Mikado attacks him at one point and Ryouga has to beat him off.
My god, man, do you read ANY of these stories or are you just going on hearsay?
>that, the only real move they had before that was the Merry-Go-Round
>attack.
>
>>5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
>>meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
>True. But he took advantage of Ranma's misunderstanding that Ryouga
>was going to fight against Mikado first.
Ryouga challenged Ranma directly. Ranma shows no signs of thinking they were
going to team up; she was just surprised when Ryouga made a preemptive attack.
Not that it makes a difference, since Ryouga didn't so much attack as move the
match to a comfortably safe distance. If Ryouga had been trying to attack, he
would have HIT Ranma, not tossed him away for no reason.
>>6) Akane was interfering, but her interference could have
>>been inhibitng to both. She just threw a chunk of ice, not
>>at ranma in particular.
>
>No, she threw one at Ranma in particular, Ryouga took advantage
>of it to land a kick on Ranma, and one at both which hit both.
Wrong again. She threw one in-between them that Ryouga reacted to faster, and
one that hit both of them.
>>> In
>>> >fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
>>> >than Ranma does.
>>> Really... How often has Ranma used a "special" technique against
>>> Ryouga or Mousse?
>>Ranma uses the Amaguriken everytime he fights. He doens't
>>-shout- Amaguriken however, but there are several times
>>against both that he uses the "blurred fist" attack.
>
>I count him using it in one fight against Ryouga. You'll have
>to point me to other examples. If the Amaguriken makes Ranma
<sigh> Against Kunou in Volume 13, against Tarou in Volume 18 (twice) and
against Genma in Volume 36. There's four examples. Since you can obviously
stand to reread the manga, why don't you go find some more?
>stronger and faster then Ryouga uses the Bakusaitenketsu every
>time he fights because it made him tougher. I guess that evens
>out.
In that case, Ranma uses the Amaguriken in every fight because it's what made
him faster overall. Not to mention his training in, say, martial arts
cheerleading and his Umisenken training.
However, as that's just plain stupid, why don't we stick to fights where they
actually use the MOVE?
>>> I count the "Saotome Final Technique" (and a
>>> variation of the Amaguri-Ken), and the MKTBS (which was a counter
>>> to the SSH). By contrast, Ryouga learned one of his special
>>> techniques (BSTK) specifically to "beat" Ranma, and one of the few
>>> fights he won against Ranma was when he learned his second special
>>> technique (SSH).
>>Ryouga learned that technique ONLY when Ranma had learned
>>the Amaguriken. By this token, Ranma learned the Amaguriken
>>only to get the Pheonix Pill from Cologne.
>
>You mean Cologne specifically taught Ryouga the move to help him
>keep up with Ranma.
Because she had taught Ranma something else? Yep.
>He also learned
>>the Shishihokodan and had no intention of challngeing Ranma
>>with it seriously, he only wanted to try it out and see how
>>well he had adapted it. It was only when Ranma insisted on
>>fighting him that Ryouga turned it into a slugfest.
>
>Um... in the manga, Ryouga said, "I don't have much confidence
>in it, but if you'll help me try it out." i.e. Ryouga was
>specifically planning to use it against Ranma.
Yes, but not in a fight. It was Ranma who made it a fight as opposed to a
sparring match.
>Ranma later says, "I was going all out."
Yep. But that wasn't what it was supposed to be, and Ryouga even saves Ranma's
pride by saying Ranma probably -wasn't- going full-out.
>>Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
>>several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
>>a bit by surprise.
>Where is this? Is this the part where Ryouga threatens to beat
>Ranma up so that Ranma will go away? The part where Ranma goes
>to male form and starts pounding away in a fight Ryouga started.
No, the time when they're actually fighting.
>Later, Ranma attacks but Ryouga deflects
>>and beats him without a "special" attack.
>You'll have to be more specific.
For god's sakes, man, we're talking about the *formal challenge and fight* held
at the end of the story. That isn't obvious?
>>> Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
>>> about Akane?
>>Ryouga, Konatsu and a few others are regulars that are
>>better than him.
>Ryouga? Maybe, if he's just learned a special techinque or Ranma
Ryouga beats Ranma in most of their matches fair and square, and ALL of the last
ones in the manga.
Case closed. If you have new evidence, come up with it or concede the damn
point. I'm sick of this idiocy.
>isn't to the top of his form. Konatsu? I don't see any evidence
>that Konatsu can hang in during a long fight with Ranma.
Aside from the fact Konatsu -did-? Although Konatsu, I feel, is around the same
level as Ranma overall.
>>Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
>>called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
>>generation.
>
>No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
>difference.
No, the most powerful MARTIAL ARTIST. Re-read the goddamn story before you
start quoting things. This is ridiculous, when I have to keep correcting you
stuff YOU are supposedly quoting half a dozen times in a single post.
>>Also stop putting words in mouth. I claimed no such things.
>You said that:
>>> >Firstly, Ranma is NOT the best of his generation. He is
>>> >hardly even the best among the normal people around the
>>> >series. Much less the best among those he fights once or
>>> >twice.
>
>I was just attempting to clear up whether Kuno and Akane were
>not "normal" people. AFAIK, Kuno and Akane are among the best
>normal humans there are in the series.
Kunou and Akane are hardly normal, inasmuch as they are both superhuman martial
artists the same as Ranma, just on a much lower level.
>>> >Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
>>> >and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
>>> >not just in battle).
>>> Really? When? Ryouga beat Ranma in the SSH story arc, that I'll
>>> grant. You mean the Ryouga who has trouble tricking Ranma into
>>> getting to go to his house while Ranma has fooled Ryouga with a
>>> female guise at least twice?
>
>>The "Magic Soap" storyline contains some examples.
>
>You'll have to be specific. Do you mean Ryouga hiding the soap in
>someplace not entirely obvious? If that is tricky then Nabiki is
>an Einstein.
Well, then, Ranma is hardly Einstein, is he?
>In the
>>Bakusaitenketsu story after Ranma uses the "block" Ryouga
>>tricks him into blocking again so that he can headbutt
>>Ranma.
>"Trick"? It was a good move, but Ranma often tricks Ryouga
>the same way, i.e. he "tricked" Ryouga into letting a bakusaitenketsu
>immediately below him so that he could knock Ryouga into the air,
>lock all his limbs, and use his Amaguriken variant to win the fight.
>So that one evens out then?
Basically, yes. We're not arguing Ryouga is much smarter than Ranma, but rather
that Ryouga is NOT much stupider than Ranma, as common convention holds.
>>The the Love Koi story he outsmarts Ranma on multiple
>>occasions.
>A love sick Ranma who would do anything for Ryouga, up to and
>including letting Ryouga kill him? Are you sure that is not
>just trust and infatuation as opposed to Ryouga tricking Ranma.
<roll eyes> Which is SO much different than Ranma doing basically the same
thing with his various disguises.
>>> >Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
>>> >plot oriented position.
>>> Fine, so does Ryouga. It's a story for god's sake man. Everything
>>> happens from a contrived plot oriented position. Your's or
>>> Takahashi's take a pick.
>>A yes, "Ranma will win because he will", the last defense.
>>Frankly, I can't agrue with that logic. I'll merelt point
>>out that it is circular, thus flawed, thus inadmissable.
>
>I'll merely point out that Ranma is written as the best martial artist
>in the manga. This may not be what you like, but if he wins 80+% of
>his fights against all these monsters, then he is a better martial
Not even close. Ranma doesn't even have a fifty-fifty record.
>artist than Ryouga according to Takahashi. You are free to dislike it
Which explains why Takahashi drew Ryouga beating Ranma repeatedly, I suppose.
>or write your own variants, but in those cases it will be "Ryouga will
>win because he will". i.e. you don't have a leg to stand on any more
>than I do.
This is a very simple concept, and I'll try to use short words, so hopefully
everybody will get it this time.
In the manga, Ranma is prevented from having repeated public losses by plot
contrivance, because if it didn't, he'd be dead several times over, have lost
Akane, and various other things.
But it doesn't always happen. For instance, Ranma very often loses when nobody
is around to see; and thus Ranma doesn't care about a rematch.
So therefore, saying "Ranma will win because the plot will contrive to make him
win" not only is a stupid, circular, and irrelevent argument, but it also
doesn't hold up to what actually happens in the manga.
Now, did everybody get it that time?
>>> Ranma has only -once- ever
>>> >managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
>>> >other people.
>
>>> No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
>>> fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
Several good shots. Haven't read that story either, I see.
>>Tarou doesn't have Ranma's healing factor, and the shot
>>which KO'd him hit him in roughly the same spot. I think
>>that counts. Also, he won with the help of Akane, which
>>means he -didn't- win on his own, which proves my point.
>
>I don't remember seeing a healing factor in any of the series.
>Both Ranma and Ryouga have ungodly metabolisms that let them
>survive medium to large helpings of Akane's food. But I don't
>see any healing factor that cannot be explained by Ranma being
>good at compensating for injury.
Mostly because you weren't paying attention, obviously. As I said: can't stand
up, five minutes later is doing acrobatics. That's not "compensating", or he'd
always be able to compensate.
Or severe internal injuries that heal by the time he gets home, or any number of
other incidents.
>>> >In their human on human fights Tarou has
>>> >outmanuveured him in every engagement.
>
>>> Which ones?
>
>>There are four times Tarou and Ranma have faced off or been
>>in comparable situations in human on human fights. First was
>>their first meeting, but in that no clear victor or superior
>>fighter was clear.
>
>Okay. I can live with that because Tarou monstered out and
>beat Ranma. I already admit Ranma would have lots of trouble
>with Tarou's cursed form.
A euphemism for "he wouldn't have a chance"?
>Second was on the cliffside. Here Tarou
>>cheats outrageously (yes, I admit it) HOWEVER he does
>>demonstrate that he is much faster and smarter than Ranma
>>anyway.
>
>I'm suprised that you admit he cheated... that wasn't what you
>were saying about a year or so ago. How is he faster if Ranma
I can pull up old posts that make a liar out of you for that, Chelian, and
unless you take that back and apologise, I will.
I suggest you apologise. Now.
>can keep Tarou from getting wet for what appears to be quite a
>while. It is quite possible that Tarou is more cunning and maybe
...
Tarou wasn't TRYING to get wet. If he wanted to get wet, he could have done so
long before the fight even began. Even Ranma can figure out Tarou wasn't
seriously trying to get wet, and says so.
>even street smart than Ranma is. I'll also note that this is not
>equivalent to straight out intelligence.
Ranma is noted to not be terribly smart in several stories. Regardless, we are
talking about intelligence in a -fight-; and there Tarou has repeatedly proven
his superiority.
>Third is in the same volume, where Happousai goes
>>monster and attacks Tarou in human form. Tarou takes a hit
>>but isn't KO'd, which is more than Ranma has ever done.
>
>Umm... well... I'll point out that Ranma is conscious several times
>after Happosai attacks him. After all, Ranma comes back at least
>three times the first few times Happosai uses his pipe trick on Ranma.
Not, however, from an all-out attack. Indeed, Ranma doesn't even try to fight
monster-Happousai, and Akane was scared shitless when she thought he was going
to.
>>Fourth is in Ashura story, where Ashura blasts both Ranma
>>and Tarou (and was aiming for Tarou so presumably he took
>>the brunt of the blast) and Ranma gets KO'd while Tarou is
>>still screaming defiance. Also in that story Tarou KO's
>>Ranma with two moves (kick into air and smash with barbell)
>
>Sigh, I'll have to reread these parts.
Indeed.
>>(Snip description of second fight) D
>>>Despite that Ranma manages to keep Tarou on the defensive for quite a > while.
>>
>>Tarou was winning on the defensive.
>
>>It is a fallacy of tactical thinking to presume you can't
>>win on the defensive.
>
>True, but it does leave you in the weaker position. Tarou
>had the tactical defensive and strategic offensive, which is
>a great way to win.
Weaker position?
Study up on Julius Caesar for a pretty effective refutation of THAT.
In any case, Mien Ch'uan is a defensive art. So are many other martial arts.
Why would there be defensive martial arts if being defensive automatically
leaves you weaker?
Answer: it doesn't. That's a myth unsupported by any evidence.
>And if you reread my statement, I did not say that Ranma was winning.
>
>>> I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
>>> writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
>>> take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
>>> his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
>>> beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
>>> broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
>>> form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
>>> Ranma can beat up everybody.
>
>>This is...
>
>>Utterly insignificant.
>
>>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
>>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
>>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
>>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
>
>Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
>the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
>you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
We aren't, and I can refute that little lie as well.
Any other gratituous insults you want to toss, Chelian?
>It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
>And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
>fighters were capable of.
Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as you have not
and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
But hey, making snide comments sure beats admitting you're wrong, I suppose.
Carry on then.
>Secondly, do not
>>presume to judge Ranma and Senchi (said evil half of Ranma)
>>as the same. They aren't. Trust me.
>
>They were... Senchi was simply much more ruthless than Ranma in his
>male form. That was what you presented in the original. In which
>case, the only think keeping the others alive is the fact that Ranma
>is a nice guy.
No, that is what people assumed. That doesn't mean it's the truth. There is no
EVIDENCE to support this, and indeed, several things-like the fact Senchi can
use the Ra Shin Ginkiri-make it pretty obvious there is more going on than what
people think.
>>> Against Ryuu he was
>>> >using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
>>> >style. And he STILL almost got himself killed.
>>> No, the Umisenken and the Yamasenken are not designed to defeat each
>>> other.
>>Uh-huh. This explains why the Umisenken has the following
>>moves.
>
>>1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
>>teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
>>in a rope while.
>
>I thought that was a Ranma innovation. It certainly wasn't stealing
>anything.
It wasn't. It was an Umisenken technique.
>>2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
>>little more.
>
>Don't you mean any bear hug type move? Or are you claiming that it
>would be 100% ineffective against other types of bear hugs.
Ryuu uses a special sort of grip that this was specifically designed to counter.
>>3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
>
>Really, I thought that it was an innovation on Ranma's part. After
>all, I don't remember the Tendo dojo's floor being sucked up into the
>air or buried under the dirt, which would have happened if Genma had
>used the move, right? i.e. Ranma made it up.
Ranma learned it from the SCROLL. This is STATED. Genma also states he KNOWS
THE MOVE.
For christ's sakes, man, I'm getting very goddamn sick of correcting you on
easily-proven facts.
>>Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
>>Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
>>countermove for the Yamasenken.
>
>Yeah right. They are both techniques for stealing. They originally
>weren't supposed to be martial arts at all. Please remember what the
Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
>conversation they were having after Ryuu left was about, and why
>Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken. Umisenken is the superior art for
>stealing. I'll say it as many times as I need to. Ranma practiced
Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
>the parts of Umisenken that he needed to counter Yamasenken and added
>the counters he had devised to the Yamasenken.
Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
>>> Herb is probably the most powerful character in the series apart
>>> from Saffron, and the closest match to Ranma.
>>No. That would be Cologne (that is best next to Saffron).
>>Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
>Sorry, you are probably correct that Cologne is second most powerful
>after Saffron. I disagree with your second statement.
Ranma isn't in the top ten, as I have shown repeatedly. I suppose it depends on
how you define "plenty".
Herb, however, also isn't in the top five.
>>> >And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
>>> >hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
>>> >machinae finish with.
>>> Neither can Ryouga. Get it through your skull that this is
>>> a story. All fights have deus ex machina finishes.
>>No, not all of them. Some have endings that make sense based
>>on the skills of both fighters.
>No, that is *your* estimation of the skills of both fighters. Please
>learn the difference between an opinion and a fact.
This from the person who repeatedly quotes "facts" from the manga he made up,
huh?
>>> Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
>>> >use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
>>> >enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
>>> What would he do then? Ranma was winning handily until Ryuu
>>> threw him off guard with the comment about his mother in the
>>> final fight. Ryuu hadn't laid a glove on Ranma before that,
>>> where as Ranma had already pulled off at least two blows
>>> against Ryuu.
>>Both of which (and here is the clincher) DIDN'T SLOW RYUU
>>DOWN. Ryuu is the thrid toughest (physically) character in
>>the manga (and the other two aren't human). He just needs
>>-time- to catch Ranma.
>They knocked him to his knees. If your definition of "DIDN'T
They knocked him flat on his face, if you prefer.
"I get knocked down, but I get up again..."
As opposed to Ranma, who was unconscious after one of them from a considerably
physically weaker opponent.
>SLOW RYUU DOWN" is struggling to your feet, then you are correct.
>He got one of his two effective attacks in after that. Ranma
>survived everything else. Heck, Ryuu's best move was the taunt
>he used on Ranma.
Ryuu's fighting ability was unaffected. This is specifically shown.
Again, you show no signs of even having read the story you're quoting from.
>>> >Against Herb he wouldn't be able to use the Hiryu Kourin Dan
>>> >because Herb wouldn't fall for it a second time now that he
>>> >knows it exists.
>>> Okay, and Herb wouldn't be able to use most of his techniques
>>> because Ranma has already seen them and has counters in hand.
>>Ranma never created counters to most of Herb's attacks. He
>>only dodged them.
>If they can't hit, they're no good except for possibly setting
>them up for something else. If Ranma can out tough you, then well,
>he's doing pretty well there too.
Ranma can't close with Herb; this is specifically shown.
Herb can fire ki blasts all day; this is shown.
Ranma was losing due to this tactic and had to be saved twice; this is shown.
Obviously, his "counters" leave a lot to be desired.
>And Herb would just have to be careful not
>>to let ranma lure him into another Hiryu Kourin Dan atatck,
>>since that is (and here is the clincher) the ONLY decent
>>move Ranma landed in that fight.
>You mean that if a move is ineffective then it is useless? And
>that two Hiryuushotenha's are nothing just because Ranma didn't
>know they wouldn't work? Again, Herb had a great advantage in
>that his attacks changed from female to male form.
No they didn't. They just got more powerful; they still worked the same way.
>>> Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
>>> >second match (at best, it was a double KO).
>>> Which second fight? The one where Tarou came back with octopus
>>> tentacles? The one where both Ranma and Tarou were knocked
>>> unconscious until they hit the bath?
>>Tarou recovered before then, he was just unable to fly what
>>with his wings and tentecales stuck inside a concrete tube.
>How can you tell that Ranma didn't recover? Because he couldn't fly?
>Actually I'll probably have to go back and look at the manga again.
>It has been several years since I looked at it.
Tarou beat Ranma in that fight. He knocks Ranma unconscious and sneers at
Ranma's falling body, and only then gets knocked unconscious himself.
>>> I'll point out that Ranma was quite able to dodge almost all of
>>> Tarou's blows after that, especially since Tarou lost the element
>>> of suprise with the tentacles and the ink. *Tarou* won by
>>> suprise (but I suppose you'll have some hand-waving for this one
>>> too).
>
>>Ranma still has nothing that could have -hurt- Tarou.
>>Eventually, he'd tire and slow down...
>
>Again, I'll say that Tarou (in monster form only) can beat Ranma in
>a stadium fight.
Tarou in any form can beat Ranma in any form in any one on one fight (ie, no
magic, no friends).
>>> >The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
>>> >the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
>>> >he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
>>> >he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
>>> >his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
>>> >would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
>
>>> What do they focus on other than Ranma fighting? Ryouga's
>>> fighting? Tarou's fighting?
>
>>Ukyou fighting.
>
>Ukyou gets into all of, what, 4 fights in the series?
There's still a story focusing on her fighting.
>>Akane fighting.
>
>Akane gets into all of, what, 6 fights in the series?
There are still stories focusing on her fighting.
>>Try again please.
>
>Exactly. Ryouga gets more fights than Akane or Ukyou. Akane
>gets more "screen time" than anyone but Ranma (I think). Would
Meaningful screen time, yes, although Ryouga is a close second.
>you care to tell me again where I am wrong in stating that it
>is a romantic comedy (Ranma and Akane lead characters) and martial
>arts second (a close second)?
Because there are more stories where martial arts are important than where
romance is important.
But actually, the most accurate description is that Ranma is a drama with
elements of romance, comedy and martial arts all playing important roles.
>>> Get it through your head that this is a romantic comedy first
>>> and a martial arts flick second (a very close second). Of
>>> course most of the story is going to revolve around Ranma and
>>> Akane. IMO, Ranma can take Ryouga 7-8 falls out of 10 unless
>>> Ryouga has just learned a special technique.
>
>>Your entitled to your opinion. Mine is supported by most of
>>the fact however.
>
>I guess you're not looking at the same facts I am. If you can
No he isn't. He's looking at the manga...you, I'm not quite sure what you were
looking at.
>point to inaccuracies in my translation then I am willing to go
>back and better research my points. If we agree on the "events"
>but disagree on the interpretation, then it is a matter of
>opinion by definition.
Well, most of the "events" you quoted don't technically exist, so...
>>> >Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
>>> >advantage that means he will. In the Pheonix arc this is
>>> >obvious, it's the Gekkaja and Akane's help. In other stories
>>> >it's other things.
>>> I'm sure that Ryouga could have taken Saffron down with absolutely
>>> no help at all. And Tarou could do it with both hands tied behind
>>> his back and in human form.
>
>>I never claimed either.
>
>Sure you didn't... it's just that they can beat Ranma that way, so
Ryouga can beat Ranma with no help, yes. Tarou could not under those
circumstances, unless you count the fact he could escape from any normal bonds
in a matter of seconds.
>they should be able to beat Saffron that way too. The more outlandish
>your claims get about Tarou's and Ryouga's strength, the more
>riduculous they sound when comparing them elsewhere.
Of course, if I asked you to quote us making those outlandish claims, you
couldn't. Because this is just as imaginary as your claims of what happened in
the manga.
You can't argue logically, so you resort to petty insults. Pathetic.
>>> >In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken.
>>> Of course, Ryuu's knowing the Yamasenken is not an advantage.
>>> I'll note that the final fight was a fight between the two
>>> styles not an open martial arts contest. Ranma was pounding
>>> Ryuu until his mother (or Akane, I can't remember which)
>>> distracts him. Ryuu beats him the second time just flat out
>>> because the Yamasenken is a very unconventional art and lets
>>> Ryuu beat up regular martial artists by suprise. That and
>>> Ryuu is a very good martial artist.
>
>>The difference is that Yamasenken is a powerful art, while
>>Umisenken is a counter-style to it. It is designed to -beat-
>>it, that is why it is called "the superior art".
>
>Again, they are *not* martial arts. They are ways to steal stuff.
They are martial arts, and the story says so, as well as their progenitor. they
are only BASED on thieving techniques.
>It is the superior art because it doesn't go for confrontation.
>And would certainly be more useful to a budoka's wife. They are
>complimentary arts, not contrary arts, you should use one when you
>can't use the other. These are "arts for living" not arts for
>fighting.
>
>>> In
>>> >the Tarou story it's the assitance of four allies (Ryouga,
>>> >Mousse, Shampoo and Akane... unless you mean to say Ranam
>>> >could have used the "Pantyhose Shooting Star Kick" without
>>> >Akane's help?)
>
>>> No he couldn't have. On the other hand Ryouga wasn't winning
>>> against Tarou by himself either.
>
>>No, but Ryouga was able to HURT tarou-Bakemono with his -own
>>strength-, something Ranma was not able to do.
>
>Really? Where? Tarou was still up and running happily after Ryouga
>was beating on him.
Indeed he was. But Ryouga's blows actually HURT Tarou, wheras Ranma's didn't.
>>> and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
>>> >and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
>>> >well, so they don't realy face off.
>>> That's fine. But you should note that Tarou, other than the
>>> one time on top of his mountain never comes close to beating
>>> Ranma in his uncursed form, and I have the explantation
>>> above.
>>Unless you count the time he KO'd ranma with two blows?
>
>Where was that?
Volume 32.
>>> Against Herb he would
>>> >have -died- if Ryouga AND Mousse had not saved his life on
>>> >several occasions and if those two had not helped him win.
>>> Of course, Ryouga AND Mousse have nothing to do with almost
>>> getting killed themselves. They don't leave Ranma at a
>>> disadvantage by KO'ing him as a female.
>
>>Huh? That happened hours before the fight between Ranma and
>>Herb!
>
>Hours!? And it has no effect? Because of this healing factor
>you keep mentioning?
Well yes, very obviously so.
>>> Ranma doesn't help
>>> them become male or anything else. Ryouga and Mousse easily
>>> take on Lime, Mint, and Herb, defeating them and leaving
>>> Ranma in the dust. Of course, Herb can't hurt or deal with
>>> Lime or Mint on his own either.
>
>>Your sarcasm leaves me speechless. I conceed that Ryouga is
>>not, single-handedly, apble to beat every single member of
>>the cast at once and that he never, at any point managed to
>>do a Kamehameha. This, of course, means that Ryouga can't
>>POSSIBLY be better than Ranma. Because we known that ranma
>>HAS done these things ne?
>
>Counter sarcasm noted.
>
>Now, if you can admit that Ryouga can't beat Herb, Tarou (cursed),
>or anyone more powerful than those two, then we can discuss how
>Ryouga and Ranma are related powerwise.
Sure. Ryouga can't. He's only ranked one above Ranma on the overall fighter
ratings. Herb, and Tarou in all three of his forms are ranked considerably
higher, among other people.
Ryouga is slightly better than Ranma, and will beat him the majority of times in
a fair fight. But Ranma is capable of beating Ryouga fairly.
>One of the points of my paragraph was that Herb could beat up Lime
>and Mint by himself. Ranma beat Herb. This makes it possible that
In a serious fight? Possibly, but not likely.
And Ranma DIDN'T beat Herb. He lost to Herb multiple times, and was by his own
admission going to die fighting Herb when Ryouga saved him, and later when Mint
saved him.
>Ranma could take on Ryouga (who had trouble with Lime) and win most
>of the time.
As usual, incorrect evidence.
>>> >Ranma never wins because he is -better- than his opponent.
>>> >He wins because the odds are staked in his favor. The odds
>>> >are staked in his favor because he is the star.
>>> Right, in that same way, Ryouga and Tarou will never win
>>> unless the author wants them to. You are not dealing with
>>> objective reality here (that's probably true the rest of the
>>> time as well, but I digress). So let me say it again. In
>>> Rumiko Takahashi's world, Ranma is the best martial artist
>>> because he will win (even if he doesn't win the first match).
>>I don't known about you, but in a match of two out of three
>>falls, the guy who gets two falls wins over the guy who gets
>>one.
>You mean that Ranma will win in my and Rumiko Takahashi's conception
>of the world, and Ryouga and Tarou will win in yours. If Ranma wins
>the rematch and the one after that then Ranma has won. If Ranma wins
Well, Ranma doesn't. Case closed. Admit you're wrong.
>the rematch and they don't come to challenge him until they get
>something new, then that says something again.
More asinine bullshit. I'm getting sick of this.
Ryouga (and Tarou) beat Ranma in the manga, which is, for idiots not paying
attention, Rumiko Takahashi's conception of the series.
It is you who is whining that Ranma should have beaten Ryouga, but he didn't.
Get this through your thick skull, admit you're wrong, and get lost, because
your abuse is increasingly off-topic, irrelevent and irritating.
Unless, of course, you can come up with actual evidence to support your points,
which would be a refreshing change from everything you've done so far.
>><snip Ranma worhip>
>Keep in mind that you engage in Ryouga worship as well, and we are
>well on our way to a compromise.
<guffaw>
Oh, that's almost as good as the guy who said Aaron worshipped Ukyou.
>>> In your opinion, Ranma is a wimp, and cannot win except by
>>> cheating and attacking people where they aren't good.
>
>>No, this is NOT my opinion. There are several people I
>>believe that Ranma could defeat. In fact, their are quite a
>>few. This list includes Ukyou, Mousse, Kunou, Mint, Lime,
>>Koruma, Masara, Mariko, Lukkosai and on and on and on. I
>>just don't believe that he is infallible and that he will
>>always win.
>
>Good, we can agree on this. It only leaves Tarou (where I conditionally
>agree with you), Ryouga, Konatsu, Kumon Ryuu, and Herb. Feel free to add
>names.
Ranma cannot possibly beat, in a serious and reasonably fair fight:
Saffron
Cologne
Tarou (in any of his three forms)
Rouge-asura
Happousai
Kiima
Herb
Ryuu Kumon
He can beat, but would be at a disadvantage against: Ryouga, and Onna-Herb. He
is about even with Konatsu. He could be beaten by his own female half or
possibly Mariko Konjou, but would have a considerably advantage.
>>> He would
>>> not be able to beat Gosunkugi with all the special techniques
>>> he is given by the author. Where as, Ryouga, Tarou, etc. never
>>> need special techniques or suprise, and are perfect honorable
>>> and forthright in all their intentions all the time, and always
>>> beat Ranma.
>
>>I never claimed this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
>
>No, you didn't claim it this time around. It ususally comes up when
>either you or Blade brings up the Ranma can only win by cheating. It
Quote us on it or take that back, liar.
>usually involves a large round of explanations as to why Ryouga and
>Tarou aren't cheating when they use similar tactics to what Ranma
>sometimes uses.
Quote us on it or take that back, liar.
>>> I'll just say that you are welcome to your opinion, but please
>>> don't try to pass it off as gospel. I'll just sit here and
>>> think of you as delusional and fanatic in your protestations.
>>Okay, you're entitled. But we can keep this at least a
>>little civil ne?
>I'll try... please keep in mind that my reactions were colored by
>the things you said the last time I was debating you (3 or 4 years
Quote him on it or take that back, liar. Or are you referring to the fact he
probably destroyed your unsupported arguments then as thoroughly as he's doing
now?
>ago). Also, I would appreciate more examples and quotes. I find
Give some yourself, hypocrite.
>it really irritating to debate with someone who mentions something
>vaguely when I try to provide more concrete examples (it means they
Yes, you're very good at making up concrete examples. A pity they bear no
resemblence to what actually happened in the manga.
>have an infinite repetory of comebacks, very few of which are
>actually substantiated).
You disgust me, Chelian. Go reread the manga and get a goddamn attitude
adjustment before you reply; not that you will, of course: it'll probably be yet
another "Blade's picking on me so I refuse to discuss it with him" reply,
ignoring the fact that you started all the insults and that I have provided, and
can provide, plenty of concrete evidence to debunk everything you've said.
Blade
Blade
Can we drop the subject and move on to something else now?
Blade
(Oh well, it was worth a try.)
Frank Wustner
> A _1400_ line message? Good god, man.
To paraphrase a regular poster from alt.atheism:
Holy flapping duck turds, boy!!! You could've written 50
messages in the time it took you to write that one!!!
^_^
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade
|-----------------------------------|
|"I, too, believe in fate... |
|the fate a man makes for himself." |
|Lord Soth ("Time of the Twins") |
|-----------------------------------|
| Want to email me? Go to the URL |
| above and email me from there. |
|-----------------------------------|
Hunter Kid
A _1400_ line message? Good god, man.
>But actually, the most accurate description is that Ranma is a drama with
>elements of romance, comedy and martial arts all playing important roles.
Ranma 1/2 isn't a series, IMO, that can be put into a single category
because it keeps changing as it goes on. The earlier manga is a
romantic comedy, with heavy emphasis on the comedy (and absurd martial
arts styles). The later manga is a character drama with very little
comedy, and a lot of realistic (e.g., Tarou's Cotton Fist style),
well-described (e.g, the emotion ki blasts), and/or highly lethal
martial arts (e.g., anything Herb does, the -senkens). It's also a
lot darker in many places than the earlier manga is. And at the very
end, it gets pretty friggin melodramatic. ;p
This broad spectrum of the series is one of the reasons that it lends
itself so well to fanfiction, I think.
Talen the First
I've heard good things of this Blade character - being a Tarou fan and
all, after all, - but my first stint here on RAAF and bam, here he is
nailing down logical arguments. Weeell done.
I've read through the lot - and while I'm thin on the ground with my
manga knowledge (precisely 0), I'm still impressed with the level of
research shown here. Keep up the good work, Blade; you give hope for
the net as a social edifice everywhere.
http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~patchboy/
"Why can't I get that computer to do that
kind of thing?"
"Because you're an idiot, sir."
Blade
says...
>
>What can I say?
The correct answer, of course. Yes. ;p
>I've heard good things of this Blade character - being a Tarou fan and
You HAVE? O_o
Err...I mean, of course you have! ^^;;;
>all, after all, - but my first stint here on RAAF and bam, here he is
>nailing down logical arguments. Weeell done.
Wow, you got that from that bunch of flames? O_o
Err...I mean, of course you did! ^^;;; Well, normally I'm more polite. Unless
people torque me off. That's because I'm a Crusty Newsgroup Veteran (tm) and
constitutionally entitled to tear strips off people. (Don't bother looking it
up, you Americans, I'm talking about the Canadian constitution, right next to
the part that says we're all legally entitled to insult you on general
principle, complain about how you're polluting our air and water supply, and
tell you that nuclear weapons are Evil, which is why we don't build any and
instead rely on yours for protection.)
But ANYWAY...uh, thanks. I confess I wasn't expecting many compliments on that
monster. ;p
>I've read through the lot - and while I'm thin on the ground with my
>manga knowledge (precisely 0), I'm still impressed with the level of
And yet you're a Tarou fan? Impressive.
See, people? Tarou's coolness is such that even people who, technically, should
never have heard of him are still his fans! <MML>
>research shown here. Keep up the good work, Blade; you give hope for
>the net as a social edifice everywhere.
Wow, I'm a symbol of hope! ^_^
Pity that doesn't pay well...oh well, back to writing. Which also doesn't pay
well. Hmm...
Blade
(In one of his usual odd moods that comes after exercising the aforementioned
constitutional rights.)
Blade
says...
Heh. I'm always long-winded when people piss me off, or hadn't you noticed?
>>But actually, the most accurate description is that Ranma is a drama with
>>elements of romance, comedy and martial arts all playing important roles.
>
>Ranma 1/2 isn't a series, IMO, that can be put into a single category
>because it keeps changing as it goes on. The earlier manga is a
>romantic comedy, with heavy emphasis on the comedy (and absurd martial
>arts styles). The later manga is a character drama with very little
>comedy, and a lot of realistic (e.g., Tarou's Cotton Fist style),
>well-described (e.g, the emotion ki blasts), and/or highly lethal
>martial arts (e.g., anything Herb does, the -senkens). It's also a
>lot darker in many places than the earlier manga is. And at the very
>end, it gets pretty friggin melodramatic. ;p
It's not as neatly segmented as all that, but I agree. That's why I don't
normally try to define the series, but only point out the incorrectness of
people who insist it IS something, especially the people-of-very-little-brain
who are always telling me "but Ranma's a COMEDY, for god's sake, it's not like
you can seriously look at anything the characters do". 9_9
>This broad spectrum of the series is one of the reasons that it lends
>itself so well to fanfiction, I think.
Among other things, but yes.
Blade
Anand Chelian
Talen the First <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>What can I say?
>I've heard good things of this Blade character - being a Tarou fan and
>all, after all, - but my first stint here on RAAF and bam, here he is
>nailing down logical arguments. Weeell done.
I'll just point out that logical arguments include things like:
1) knowing the difference between fact and opinion
2) presenting evidence
3) backing your argument up
and
4) actually using logic.
If you think that Blade does all four then congratulations. If not then
you might want to reconsider your statement.
>I've read through the lot - and while I'm thin on the ground with my
>manga knowledge (precisely 0), I'm still impressed with the level of
>research shown here.
On whose part? I've seen some bad stuff in both my arguments (i.e. Herb
only uses the attack on Ranma 3 times) and Epsilon's (i.e. Tarou woke up
before they crashed into the bathhouse (Tarou comes back with tentacles
and Spring of Drowned Virtuous Man water and uses the chimney to KO Ranma)
but that Ranma does not. This is not true, they are both awake enough to
see that the water is actually Spring of Drowned Twins when it hits the
crow).
I've presented more evidence, and been more specific about my evidence
than Blade or Epsilon has.
I'm happy to see that you agree with Blade and Epsilon with your knowledge
of the manga. I might recommend that you get a more unbiased opinion by
obtaining the manga (and translations) yourself, so that you see it without
the filters that both they and I use. Then decide for yourself what
evidence there is, and whom it supports.
>Keep up the good work, Blade; you give hope for
>the net as a social edifice everywhere.
Not really... the only person I found less personable was Kuno Christoffel,
and I at least respected her arguments.
Blade
>In article <379cbf7e...@news.shoalhaven.net.au>,
>Talen the First <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>>What can I say?
>
>>I've heard good things of this Blade character - being a Tarou fan and
>>all, after all, - but my first stint here on RAAF and bam, here he is
>>nailing down logical arguments. Weeell done.
>
>I'll just point out that logical arguments include things like:
>1) knowing the difference between fact and opinion
>2) presenting evidence
>3) backing your argument up
>and
>4) actually using logic.
>
>If you think that Blade does all four then congratulations. If not then
>you might want to reconsider your statement.
It's plain fact that I do all four. If you think otherwise, I suggest you come
up with evidence to prove it.
Real evidence, that is, not yet more examples you made up.
>>I've read through the lot - and while I'm thin on the ground with my
>>manga knowledge (precisely 0), I'm still impressed with the level of
>>research shown here.
>
>On whose part? I've seen some bad stuff in both my arguments (i.e. Herb
>only uses the attack on Ranma 3 times) and Epsilon's (i.e. Tarou woke up
Four times.
>before they crashed into the bathhouse (Tarou comes back with tentacles
>and Spring of Drowned Virtuous Man water and uses the chimney to KO Ranma)
>but that Ranma does not. This is not true, they are both awake enough to
Epsilon didn't actually say that. You just read that into his statement.
>see that the water is actually Spring of Drowned Twins when it hits the
>crow).
>
>I've presented more evidence, and been more specific about my evidence
>than Blade or Epsilon has.
I've presented actual evidence from the manga, and pointed out half a dozen
things you "presented" that never occured at all.
And I've presented more evidence than you on a post by post basis. Also, unlike
you, I don't insult people because I'm losing a debate.
>I'm happy to see that you agree with Blade and Epsilon with your knowledge
>of the manga. I might recommend that you get a more unbiased opinion by
>obtaining the manga (and translations) yourself, so that you see it without
>the filters that both they and I use. Then decide for yourself what
>evidence there is, and whom it supports.
That I actually agree with.
>>Keep up the good work, Blade; you give hope for
>>the net as a social edifice everywhere.
>Not really... the only person I found less personable was Kuno Christoffel,
>and I at least respected her arguments.
Ah yes, "poor me, picked on by Blade".
If you can't take the heat, Chelian, don't start fires. You made numerous
insulting and derogatory comments that were utterly irrelevent to the debate,
and made several claims that were outright lies.
You have no moral superiority, or even equality, in this case, and you know it.
Crawl back under whatever rock you came from until you're ready to talk like a
reasonable adult.
Blade
al70...@academ01.ccm.itesm.mx
All right, after almost four years of lurking, I just *have* to reply to
this, just to make *some*one realize that Blade and Epsilon are the on
the correct side in this debate. My skills may be a bit rusty, but at
least I know the manga by heart, OWN all of it, and just reread some of
the parts in question.
Blade wrote:
>
> In article <7qfee2$b...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu
says...
> >In article <37CB4B58...@ns.sympatico.ca>,
> >Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> Seems to me Ranma was on the ground until then. And remember, Saffron
cannot
> effectively attack anybody wielding the Gekkaja, which means Ryouga
would be
> largely in control.
And, while the range of the SHD may not be great, most of Saffron's
attacks would be easily escapable by a Ryouga that had the ground
advantage. In fact, I can see it as a very long fight unless Saffy got
fed up and fired off a TSKD or flared his aura to its maximum.
> Saffron is a god, pure and simple. That's a big difference to make
up, even
> with magical or other help.
BTW, and a little OT: How would Herb, wielding the Gekkaja, fare against
Saffy? I'm curious.
In any case, I believe Ryouga's biggest disadvantage in a fight with
phoenix-boy would be that, being aware that Akane is at death's door, he
would have such great access to the PSHD that Saffron would capitalize
upon that depression, and counter the PSHD with a TSKD.
> >He got all of three shots off... how that is wearing anyone down
> >the way they fight is something I don't understand. Realize that
>
> Look at Lime; he is bruised and obviously angry at Ryouga. Also,
Ryouga was
> getting confident aobut his strategy, which he normally doesn't do
unless he's
> winning.
Having just read the story, I have to say that it seems to be a pretty
even fight. If anything, Ryouga had a very slight advantage, and Lime
was pissed off because he was so (comparatively) slow that he couldn't
land a decent blow without outside assistance.
> >Mint revived Lime within minutes of Ryouga's super blow.
>
> Uhh...Mint did no such thing. What the hell are you reading?
Who knows. After all, when Herb pulled Lime's face off the ground, he
was still out of it. What surprises me is that Mousse and Mint actually
withstood the blast at all, being so close to ground-zero.
> Ranma is a good improvisor, there is no doubt of that. I'll even say
that,
> overall, he's a better improvisor than Ryouga. But Ryouga is hardly
incompetent
> at it, and Ranma's skill at improvisation does not and has not made up
for the
> fact that he is an utterly lousy strategist and tactician.
True. The "CHAAAAARGE!" method he uses against EVERY SINGLE opponent is
pretty much flawed. See what happened in vols. 20, 24, 23, 31, 32, 37...
> >Look, all that does it toss people up in the air and disorient
> >them. After all, Akane survived one with mussed hair and disarrayed
> >clothes. Ranma when he was weak survived one, Lime, Mint, Herb,
> >Mousse, Kuno, the principal, and Gosunkugi all survived one, only
> >suffering a knock out. When Ranma was in the twister (defeating
> >Happosai/Ranma weak story line), Ranma was hurt by the stuff in
> >the twister not much by the twister itself. Unless you have some
> >evidence or examples to back yourself up I win this point.
>
> Aaron has already thoroughly refuted this. But I'll point out one
thing: Ryouga
> was ripped to shreds and nearly killed by being caught in the center.
Obviously
> it wasn't "being tossed up and disoriented" that did it, and just as
obviously
> the other people hadn't caught the full-on blast.
>
> Also, if it was just wind and disorientation, what the HELL would
Herb's
> covering himself in cold chi do about it?
Sorry, I missed the rebuttal. OTOH, it may have been Herb's cold shield
that weakened the HSH to such a degree. Also, about Akane surviving
one... from the instant she was pulled up she was nearly unconscious,
and she wasn't even in range of the real blast --she was only dragged by
the tornado. Kunou, his father, Mousse and Happy took the Dragon at
point-blank range, and were thus knocked out instantly.
I'll also point out that Herb didn't seem to be at point-blank either;
there's a decent distance between him and Ranma when the latter fires up
the HSH. Nevertheless, the HSH from volume 24 is probably the strongest
in the series, except perhaps the one in vol. 25.
> >Ryuu has
> >>performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
> >>powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
> >>Kijin Raishu Dan.
> >
> >Regular and "highest level" KJRSD. Same as Ryouga and regular
> >and perfect (and no other variants) for the SSH. No sign of
> >innovation for Ryuu here I'm sorry to say.
>
> You didn't read THAT story, either. Read it and then come back.
Ano... wasn't the Mad Dance ALSO contained in the original Yamasenken
scroll? Just an honest question.
> >I'll grant you this one. Also remember that Ranma reinvented
> >most of the Umisenken from the one session his father showed
> >him.
>
> Ranma did nothing of the sort. He copied the moves his father used.
Everything
> else he learned from the scroll he got from Nodoka, as is specifically
stated.
If anything, Ranma applied his own style to the techniques; he certainly
didn't reinvent them.
> >Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
> >>blocking shield.
> >I don't remember this actually. When? He usually uses his
> >umbrella to block.
>
> Love Koi story, Volume 23, intergral to Ryouga's victory over Ranma.
I think it's more of parrying a weapon with another, but the point is
the same. Oh, and the umbrella is good for blocking... when he's
blocking water. Otherwise, he uses it as a weapon (and even *that* is
rare.)
<regarding Ryuusei Hishou>
> >I doubt that. He caught Ranma totally off guard the first time.
> >By the third time Ranma figured out what it did (ki blasts off the
> >ground). Once Ranma knows where it is coming from he can dodge
> >it.
As big as a Ranma-chan fan that I am...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Ahem, nope. Ranma NEVER dodged the RHS. The only time he (she?) escaped
it was because the advantage given by the terrain at the onsen.
Ranma even goes on to say that she doesn't know how to dodge it, even
after seeing it several times.
> >>Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
> >>After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
> >>no superhuman healing factor after all.
> >
> >Neither does Ryouga. Or for that matter Ranma.
>
> That's just stupid. Ranma's healing factor is extremely
well-documented.
For further proof, read vol. 28. Ryuu's strikes, capable of killing
someone just below Ranma's level with one hit, are gone and forgotten in
hours.
> >>2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
> >Sigh, do you think Ryouga is tougher than Mousse? If Mousse could
> >beat Ranma due to speed, strength, and reach considerations (before
> >Ranma learned distance attacks and the Amaguriken) then Ryouga
> >would have wiped the floor with Ranma's female form. Agility didn't
> >matter as much in that case.
>
> Except Ranma beat Mousse. Have dealt with this elsewhere.
<sigh> Some people just take that first statement from Cologne as the
end-all-be-all of that fight, then completely ignore how Ranma ran rings
around Mousse after realizing her disadvantage.
> >>5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
> >>meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
> >True. But he took advantage of Ranma's misunderstanding that Ryouga
> >was going to fight against Mikado first.
>
> Ryouga challenged Ranma directly. Ranma shows no signs of thinking
they were
> going to team up; she was just surprised when Ryouga made a preemptive
attack.
I was going to argue this, but you're right. She DOES know that the
fight is on, but was caught off guard. <shrug> Maybe she thought they
were going to take on the G. Pair together, then fight each other, but
it's a moot point anyway. She should have been ready for it.
> >No, she threw one at Ranma in particular, Ryouga took advantage
> >of it to land a kick on Ranma, and one at both which hit both.
>
> Wrong again. She threw one in-between them that Ryouga reacted to
faster, and
> one that hit both of them.
Um... she did? I'm looking at the manga right now, and I honestly
believe she tossed that block of ice straight at Ranma, while Ryouga is
just beginning to rise into the air.
> >I count him using it in one fight against Ryouga. You'll have
> >to point me to other examples. If the Amaguriken makes Ranma
>
> <sigh> Against Kunou in Volume 13, against Tarou in Volume 18 (twice)
and
> against Genma in Volume 36. There's four examples. Since you can
obviously
> stand to reread the manga, why don't you go find some more?
Lemme see... against Ryuu, for one thing. Against Ryouga in the Yoiko
story (does that one count as a pseudo-Amaguriken, tho'?). He uses a
variant on Ashura. The Gourmet de Foi Gras was also greatly assisted by
it (heck, I believe the Foi Gras actually *improved* Ranma's speed and
accuracy, but would have been useless without the Chestnut's
foundations.)
> >>Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
> >>several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
> >>a bit by surprise.
> >Where is this? Is this the part where Ryouga threatens to beat
> >Ranma up so that Ranma will go away? The part where Ranma goes
> >to male form and starts pounding away in a fight Ryouga started.
>
> No, the time when they're actually fighting.
Hmm... when Ranma-chan is wielding the fishing rod at the same time? I
think she was just trying to get an opening, not really attack. Also,
she was using only one hand, whereas (IIRC) the male Ranma was using
both during his fit of jealousy.
> >isn't to the top of his form. Konatsu? I don't see any evidence
> >that Konatsu can hang in during a long fight with Ranma.
>
> Aside from the fact Konatsu -did-? Although Konatsu, I feel, is
around the same
> level as Ranma overall.
Given the evidence you provided the last time we debated, I still
believe in your interpretation that Konatsu is *better* than Ranma by a
decent margin. <shrug>
(Really now, how he could even THINK he could block a sharpened wooden
sword wielded by a master kunoichi with just a mere twig is beyond
me...)
> >No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
> >difference.
>
> No, the most powerful MARTIAL ARTIST. Re-read the goddamn story
before you
> start quoting things. This is ridiculous, when I have to keep
correcting you
> stuff YOU are supposedly quoting half a dozen times in a single post.
Happousai *himself* states this. That's gotta mean something, especially
given that he had already seen (and fought) all of the powerful martial
artists in the series save Herb.
> Basically, yes. We're not arguing Ryouga is much smarter than Ranma,
but rather
> that Ryouga is NOT much stupider than Ranma, as common convention
holds.
*coughcoughthanksalotanimewriterscoughcough*
<snip>
> So therefore, saying "Ranma will win because the plot will contrive to
make him
> win" not only is a stupid, circular, and irrelevent argument, but it
also
> doesn't hold up to what actually happens in the manga.
>
> Now, did everybody get it that time?
<piku> They're STILL using meta arguments? Oy vey... That's just
slightly better than saying something like "EVA-01 roars 'cause it looks
cool."
> >>> No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
> >>> fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
>
> Several good shots. Haven't read that story either, I see.
Ryouga and Shampoo delivered decent jumpkicks; it's debateable whether
Mousse's weapons restrained Tarou, but it's more likely they didn't.
Ranma only got a couple of hits in worth mentioning.
<healing factor>
> Mostly because you weren't paying attention, obviously. As I said:
can't stand
> up, five minutes later is doing acrobatics. That's not
"compensating", or he'd
> always be able to compensate.
>
> Or severe internal injuries that heal by the time he gets home, or any
number of
> other incidents.
Again, look at vol. 28. Ryuu's Geimon Tessenshi practically went through
Ranma, who was then turned female and limped home. When she finally gets
there, the only memory of the wound is Soun's brief "Those injuries!"
lament, which is pretty irrelevant given that Ranma has almost
completely recovered by then.
> >I'm suprised that you admit he cheated... that wasn't what you
> >were saying about a year or so ago. How is he faster if Ranma
<facefault>
Oh, this is rich. Where were you during those debates about Tarou's
skill, anyway? About FOUR years ago? Blade and Epsilon have ALWAYS
admitted that Tarou cheated during the Water Citadel fight, and NEVER
tried to hide it.
> >can keep Tarou from getting wet for what appears to be quite a
> >while. It is quite possible that Tarou is more cunning and maybe
>
> ...
>
> Tarou wasn't TRYING to get wet. If he wanted to get wet, he could
have done so
> long before the fight even began. Even Ranma can figure out Tarou
wasn't
> seriously trying to get wet, and says so.
Tarou was playing with Ranma like a cat plays with a mouse. He had every
chance to finish the fight in an instant if he so desired. But Tarou
wanted to humiliate Ranma first, that's why he kept dancing around,
pretending he was trying to get wet.
> >True, but it does leave you in the weaker position. Tarou
> >had the tactical defensive and strategic offensive, which is
> >a great way to win.
>
> Weaker position?
>
> Study up on Julius Caesar for a pretty effective refutation of THAT.
>
> In any case, Mien Ch'uan is a defensive art. So are many other
martial arts.
> Why would there be defensive martial arts if being defensive
automatically
> leaves you weaker?
>
> Answer: it doesn't. That's a myth unsupported by any evidence.
One straight, perfect rebuttal to the "weaker position" statement.
Taijiquan.
Now try to tell ME that Taijiquan, an art that is almost 80% defensive,
is weak. Oh, and try telling that to my Shifu while you're at it.
> >>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
> >>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
> >>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
> >>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
> >
> >Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
> >the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
> >you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
Translation: Couldn't stand having my far-fetched arguments debunked.
Really now, even in CoD I can see that their arguments are very
well-based on facts from the manga.
> >It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
> >And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
> >fighters were capable of.
>
> Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as
you have not
> and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
>
> But hey, making snide comments sure beats admitting you're wrong, I
suppose.
> Carry on then.
Well, for one thing, it's pulling a statement out of fanfiction, which
is not the smartest thing to do. Second, it's a sure-fire way to know
*some*one is grasping at straws: I can't attack your arguments, so I
attack a fanfic you wrote years ago.
> >They were... Senchi was simply much more ruthless than Ranma in his
> >male form. That was what you presented in the original. In which
> >case, the only think keeping the others alive is the fact that Ranma
> >is a nice guy.
>
> No, that is what people assumed. That doesn't mean it's the truth.
There is no
> EVIDENCE to support this, and indeed, several things-like the fact
Senchi can
> use the Ra Shin Ginkiri-make it pretty obvious there is more going on
than what
> people think.
I'm unnerved by Senchi, actually. Especially being the Ranma-chan/Ranko
fan that I am... ^_^;;;; She's a great character, though.
Anyway, if you think Senchi is just a "more ruthless Ranma," then you
probably think Happousai is just a male Cologne.
> >>1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
> >>teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
> >>in a rope while.
> >
> >I thought that was a Ranma innovation. It certainly wasn't stealing
> >anything.
>
> It wasn't. It was an Umisenken technique.
It was specifically designed to counter the Geimon Tessenshi, which is
paired up with the rope-tossing as well.
> >>2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
> >>little more.
> >
> >Don't you mean any bear hug type move? Or are you claiming that it
> >would be 100% ineffective against other types of bear hugs.
>
> Ryuu uses a special sort of grip that this was specifically designed
to counter.
Exactly. Name one bear hug where the hugger leaves one opponent's arm
free and capable of attack, but without the leverage to let such attack
cause significant damage.
> >>3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
> >
> >Really, I thought that it was an innovation on Ranma's part. After
> >all, I don't remember the Tendo dojo's floor being sucked up into the
> >air or buried under the dirt, which would have happened if Genma had
> >used the move, right? i.e. Ranma made it up.
>
> Ranma learned it from the SCROLL. This is STATED. Genma also states
he KNOWS
> THE MOVE.
>
> For christ's sakes, man, I'm getting very goddamn sick of correcting
you on
> easily-proven facts.
Heck, every single technique Ranma used after escaping the bear hug was
from the scroll. He even remembers the piece of it sent by Nodoka.
> >>Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
> >>Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
> >>countermove for the Yamasenken.
> >
> >Yeah right. They are both techniques for stealing. They originally
> >weren't supposed to be martial arts at all. Please remember what the
>
> Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
Was he being sarcastic there?
> >conversation they were having after Ryuu left was about, and why
> >Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken. Umisenken is the superior art for
> >stealing. I'll say it as many times as I need to. Ranma practiced
>
> Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
"Why Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken"? Where, pray tell? Give me chapter
and/or page numbers where this is shown. Nodoka didn't even know what
the Umisenken WAS, let alone that she HAD it.
> >>Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
> >Sorry, you are probably correct that Cologne is second most powerful
> >after Saffron. I disagree with your second statement.
>
> Ranma isn't in the top ten, as I have shown repeatedly. I suppose it
depends on
> how you define "plenty".
>
> Herb, however, also isn't in the top five.
This reminds me of a Saint Seiya debate I once got into. Just because
the Cockroach Saint's name is in the title doesn't mean there aren't
scores of warriors who could beat him twenty times from Sunday. It's the
same with Ranma.
> >>Both of which (and here is the clincher) DIDN'T SLOW RYUU
> >>DOWN. Ryuu is the thrid toughest (physically) character in
> >>the manga (and the other two aren't human). He just needs
> >>-time- to catch Ranma.
> >They knocked him to his knees. If your definition of "DIDN'T
>
> They knocked him flat on his face, if you prefer.
>
> "I get knocked down, but I get up again..."
>
> As opposed to Ranma, who was unconscious after one of them from a
considerably
> physically weaker opponent.
Ryuu was, at most, surprised by the techniques. You can clearly see it
in his eyes. Heck, only his clothes were torn, SLIGHTLY. Ryuu continued
to be in top form through most of the match.
> >SLOW RYUU DOWN" is struggling to your feet, then you are correct.
Reread that story again. He struggled to his feet, true, then went back
to full power as if nothing had happened.
> >He got one of his two effective attacks in after that. Ranma
> >survived everything else. Heck, Ryuu's best move was the taunt
> >he used on Ranma.
Oh, you mean when he mentioned Nodoka? Please. The only reason Ryuu
didn't get other hits in before that was because the Umisenken was
designed specifically to counter him. Plus, he was surprised by it, and
he was waiting to see all of its techniques, which is why he couldn't
just KO Ranma outright.
Also, conviently forgetting the Kijin Raishuudan that struck Ranma
head-on, despite the massive prior warning he had, are we?
> >If they can't hit, they're no good except for possibly setting
> >them up for something else. If Ranma can out tough you, then well,
> >he's doing pretty well there too.
>
> Ranma can't close with Herb; this is specifically shown.
>
> Herb can fire ki blasts all day; this is shown.
>
> Ranma was losing due to this tactic and had to be saved twice; this is
shown.
Indeed.
Herb's attacks can't hit, just because Ranma has seen them? Okay, how
about Herb just getting fed up and tossing HRHs one after the other?
Ranma can't just jump around dodging forever, you know. Or how about
just typical ki blasts, which Herb was shown as being able to toss
constantly without penalty, at any speed and with any size?
Or, simply, going into RHS overkill? Ranma certainly couldn't dodge
THAT.
> >And Herb would just have to be careful not
> >>to let ranma lure him into another Hiryu Kourin Dan atatck,
> >>since that is (and here is the clincher) the ONLY decent
> >>move Ranma landed in that fight.
And Herb could probably imitate it now. Remember the massive blow he
released after Ranma first used the HSH?
> >You mean that if a move is ineffective then it is useless?
If Herb already knows how it is created, yes, I think that's what he
means.
> > And
> >that two Hiryuushotenha's are nothing just because Ranma didn't
> >know they wouldn't work?
Whether or not Ranma knew they would work is irrelevant. The point is,
Herb already knew about it and how to counter it. They are, therefore,
useless against him, unless of course you want him to catch a cold from
the breeze.
> >Again, Herb had a great advantage in
> >that his attacks changed from female to male form.
>
> No they didn't. They just got more powerful; they still worked the
same way.
And I point out the blast that opened up Hourai-san's summit as an
example of this.
> >>Tarou recovered before then, he was just unable to fly what
> >>with his wings and tentecales stuck inside a concrete tube.
Um, both Ranma and Tarou are awake, staring at the birdies (^_^) in the
same panel. They recovered at the same time, I think.
The rest is true, however. Tarou won that fight.
<big snip>
> >>> >Ranma tends to win a few fights because he is given an
> >>> I'm sure that Ryouga could have taken Saffron down with absolutely
> >>> no help at all. And Tarou could do it with both hands tied behind
> >>> his back and in human form.
> >
> >>I never claimed either.
> >
> >Sure you didn't... it's just that they can beat Ranma that way, so
You like putting words in other people's mouths, don't you? Point out
where you derive this argument from, if you please.
> >they should be able to beat Saffron that way too.
Okay, you're saying that if they can beat Ranma [that way], they can
beat Saffron? What, is Ranma stronger and more powerful than the Phoenix
prince?
> >The more outlandish
> >your claims get about Tarou's and Ryouga's strength, the more
> >riduculous they sound when comparing them elsewhere.
No, YOU're the one making such ridiculous comparisons. Blade and Epsilon
did indeed say that Ryouga and Tarou can defeat Ranma, but they never
implied that they could do the same to Saffron, who is basically a minor
god. Get your facts straight, or at least don't resort to childish
finger-pointing that is not even accurate.
> >>The difference is that Yamasenken is a powerful art, while
> >>Umisenken is a counter-style to it. It is designed to -beat-
> >>it, that is why it is called "the superior art".
> >
> >Again, they are *not* martial arts. They are ways to steal stuff.
<smack face> Undisputable facts meet an immovable rock wall. Okay.
> >It is the superior art because it doesn't go for confrontation.
Then I guess the Spitting Whitesnake Palm is just a gentle massage.
> >And would certainly be more useful to a budoka's wife.
...who has no idea what the Umisenken is, let alone that she has it?
Oh, and just what about Nodoka's character makes you think she would use
the -senken techniques, knowing they're for thievery?
How's THAT for putting words in another's mouth?
> > They are
> >complimentary arts, not contrary arts, you should use one when you
> >can't use the other. These are "arts for living" not arts for
> >fighting.
Oh, god. That expression was coined by Genma, you know. Arts for living,
indeed... Living as a petty thief, maybe.
> >One of the points of my paragraph was that Herb could beat up Lime
> >and Mint by himself. Ranma beat Herb. This makes it possible that
>
> In a serious fight? Possibly, but not likely.
Hmm. Actually, Herb would have serious trouble with Mint. Lime would be
splattered all over the landscape if he tried to fight his lord, but
Mint is too fast for Herb to get a lock on.
> And Ranma DIDN'T beat Herb. He lost to Herb multiple times, and was
by his own
> admission going to die fighting Herb when Ryouga saved him, and later
when Mint
> saved him.
I think you meant "when Mousse saved him" here. ^_^
> >You mean that Ranma will win in my and Rumiko Takahashi's conception
> >of the world,
Good one, comparing yourself with the author. Please read the actual
manga before making these claims.
> >><snip Ranma worhip>
> >Keep in mind that you engage in Ryouga worship as well, and we are
> >well on our way to a compromise.
>
> <guffaw>
>
> Oh, that's almost as good as the guy who said Aaron worshipped Ukyou.
I just have to laugh at that. Blade, remember those arguments we had
because I blinded myself by being a Ranma-chan/Ranko fan? Just because
I'm STILL a fan doesn't mean I can't be objective. And BTW, I have seen
no traces of Ryouga-worship in Blade nor Epsilon's arguments.
> He can beat, but would be at a disadvantage against: Ryouga, and
Onna-Herb. He
> is about even with Konatsu. He could be beaten by his own female half
or
> possibly Mariko Konjou, but would have a considerably advantage.
I'm not grinning with delight at that last sentence. Really, I'm not.
(But I *do* seem to recall one of you two saying that if Ranma focused
on the capabilities of her female body, instead of always using the same
tactics, she would be better than the male one.)
> >>I never claimed this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
> >
> >No, you didn't claim it this time around. It ususally comes up when
> >either you or Blade brings up the Ranma can only win by cheating. It
>
> Quote us on it or take that back, liar.
<facefault> Now he's getting personal. Please point out exactly where
Blade or Epsilon said something of this sort.
> >usually involves a large round of explanations as to why Ryouga and
> >Tarou aren't cheating when they use similar tactics to what Ranma
> >sometimes uses.
And they said that exactly where?
>
> >I'll try... please keep in mind that my reactions were colored by
> >the things you said the last time I was debating you (3 or 4 years
Funny, I certainly don't remember you. I remember the guy who insisted
that male-Ranma was much more agile and flexible than female-Ranma
(remember that one, Blade?), I remember the debates with Kun-chan and
the "woman-beating" Tarou, but not you...
Jorge A. Pratt
al70...@academ01.ccm.itesm.mx
ter...@rocketmail.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bryan McNerney
For the record from what I have read, that being up to Bakusai Ten Ketsu
and a web translation of the SSH story arc Ranma is slightly more
skilled but Ryouga is a better fighter, there is a difference. BTW I do
not consider the SSH arc in any way to be a comparison of their fighting
abilities so much as who has the intenser motions the ONLY true manuever
used in that arc was when Ranma used Ryouga's PSSH to KO him the rest
was just them standing there throwing energy blasts at each other. So
as it stands my view in all honesty is from earlier in the series and I
will not contest that things do change. Your point about their being
evenly matched in their first fight as I remember it Ranma was not
taking the fight seriously. Overall I would say Ryouga has improved
slightly less, at a faster rate overall, but also more steadily Ryouga
constantly trains his fighting ability while Ranma only does so in
response to someone showing they are better than him then he goes back
into his complacent shell. That is the reason Ranma is not better he
*thinks* he is the best so only improves when someone beats him.
Overall Ryouga ia a better martial artist and fighter, maybe not more
skilled but as I said they are not the same thing.
Insofar as the others are concerned, well Tarou has to the best of my
knowledge taken Happousai which Ranma can't without distraction but he
also has a few years more experience than Ranma. So I would say for
their age brackets they are comparable but that gives advantage Tarou.
Ranma's biggest advantage is that he pisses people off so their skill
degrades because they get sloppy.
Summation:
Ryouga slight physical edge: Strength, Toughness, and Endurance Vice
Ranmas Speed and Endurance.
Ryouga vast dedication edge, Ranma learning curve edge he just doesnt
use it.
Ranma (At least as I admitted to my knowledge limits early on) slight
skill edge, I will bow to Blade and Epsilons superior knowledge as to
later on.
Psych edge goes to Ranma.
P.S. I am a Ranma fan and I think he has more potential than Ryouga but
he is so comparatively lazy that if the challenges layed of for a year
or two Ryouga beat him without getting touched since Ranma would have no
incentive to improve.
P.P.S. How did we start talking about Tarou, and all the others
anyways?
Talen
limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
*just* a cartoon.
I have 10 to 1 odds that I get a 'I am not, Blade sucks and so do you
for agreeing with him' followup. Any takers?
Hunter Kid
>Just why is it that I make a note about what I can perceive from a
>limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
>for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
>debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
>*just* a cartoon.
A _cartoon_??
You bastard!!
Talen
wrote:
>patc...@shoalhaven.net.au (Talen) wrote:
>
>>Just why is it that I make a note about what I can perceive from a
>>limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
>>for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
>>debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
>>*just* a cartoon.
>
>A _cartoon_??
>
>You bastard!!
Okay, a comic. Anyway, what do you care? You put Tarou with Herb-Chan,
you bastard!!!
I still think the Gosunkugi ending is just *too* gross for words,
though.
*nyaaah*
Hunter Kid
>>>Just why is it that I make a note about what I can perceive from a
>>>limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
>>>for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
>>>debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
>>>*just* a cartoon.
>>
>>A _cartoon_??
>>
>>You bastard!!
>
>Okay, a comic. Anyway, what do you care? You put Tarou with Herb-Chan,
>you bastard!!!
Hey, so what? It's not like...
<voice trails off as an evil chuckle floats up from behind him>
Oh man...
>I still think the Gosunkugi ending is just *too* gross for words,
>though.
>
>*nyaaah*
Hey, don't expect me to disagree with you or anything. ;p
Anand Chelian
will be in the following format:
Volume.Story.Page.Panel
For example: 35.6.99.5. These only refer to the Japanese tankubon,
as that is the only version that I have.
> In article <7qfee2$b...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu says...
> >In article <37CB4B58...@ns.sympatico.ca>,
> >Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >>Anand, at no point did I ever insult you. Why you feel the
> >>need to do so to me is both confusing and intriguing.
> >>Perhaps you know that you can't win with any sort of valid
> >>logic, so you resort to crass insults? I don't know. I don't
> >>care to know.
> >Actually I have known you as a rude and insulting poster before.
> >I should have killfiled you in this group as I did in r.a.a.misc
> >before.
> ...so you respond by being more rude and insulting? Interesting.
We'll see.
> BTW, I would like to hear some evidence to support your "rude and insulting"
> argument.
Later, I'll have to go back and dig through deja news. Note that I
was insulting Epsilon, not you. I will point out where you are being
rude an insulting in this post however.
> >>I will try to address your actual points, those few times
> >>you make one.
> >You see what I mean. I'd prefer you attempt to insult me outright,
> >rather than try and imply things through tricks of language. I can
> >after all read, and I even know the meaning of irony and sarcasm.
> Don't be insulting, and Aaron won't insult you in return. That's fairly
> simple to understand, isn't it?
I take it the implication that I am too simple to understand common
sense is not an insult here.
> >>The only reaosn that became an aerial fight is because Ranma
> >>used the Hiryushotenha, thus creating a tornado that drew
> >>him into the air.
> >It became an aerial fight when it turned out Saffron could fly,
> >not when Ranma used the Hiryuushotenha.
> Seems to me Ranma was on the ground until then. And remember,
> Saffron cannot effectively attack anybody wielding the Gekkaja,
> which means Ryouga would be largely in control.
Saffran started flying after emerging from the egg and blasting Ranma
through a wall, 38.6.95.1. Ranma had managed to get above Saffran
and attacks by knocking himself a shield of rock to close with
Saffran by falling behind the rock 38.6.96.1. He cuts off Saffran's
wings. Note that even though Ranma had the Gekkaja, he was blasted
through a wall 38.6.93.1-2, so saying that Saffran cannot effectively
attack is false. He is not as effective as he would be if the
opponent did not have the Gekkaja, but certainly not ineffective.
>From that point on, Saffran is airborne, and Ranma is following/falling
down the mountain. Ranma is knocked off the mountain and down to the
ground 38.7.104.2 - 38.7.106.1. It turns out that Akane could not be
hurt by the fire attack because she already had all of her water
evaporated from her body by the Kinjakan, therefore most further heat
attacks will not be effective.
Ranma uses the Hiryuushotenha on 38.7.118.3 to get airborne. In other
words, they have been fighting (occasionally in mid-air) for 14 pages
before Ranma gets airborne using the Hiryuushotenha. Saffran has been
airborne the entire time. Also note that Saffran gets the Kinjakan
while he is in the Hiryuushotenha, 38.7.123.5, 38.7.124.1. So Ranma
does not have an overwhelming advantage just because he has the Gekkaja.
> >Ryouga would not use the Hiryushotenha
> >>thus he would not be drawn into the air. Whether he could
> >>counter a flying opponent or not is iffy, but I could see it
> >>happening. The perfect Shishihokodan may fly up high enough
> >>to catch flying opponents, but I'm not sure. The
> >>bakusaitenketsu may as well. How the fight between Ryouga/w
> >>Gekkaja and saffron would go is anyone's geuss.
> >So you admit that Ryouga may not have won. The couple of times
> Ryouga probably wouldn't. Even with the aid of the Gekkaja, Ryouga AND
> Akane-doll, Ranma barely won.
> Saffron is a god, pure and simple. That's a big difference to make up, even
> with magical or other help.
Alright, so Ryouga is probably not going to be able to take on Saffran.
Saffran is more powerful.
> >I've seen Ryouga in the air, he was put there by the
> >Bakusaitenketsu (Bakusaitenketsu story arc) or in the opening
> >fight when Ryouga first shows up (and he was mostly out of choices
> >at that point).
> He also took on Ranma in the air in the magic soap story, and did fine.
This would be 12.10.159 - 12.10.162.
Ranma attacks Ryouga and Ryouga starts running away. Ryouga keeps
running away just fine. Then Akane shows up on the roller coaster track.
Ryouga gets used as a stepping stone by Ranma as he rescues Akane
12.10.162.1, and is shown with spiral eyes on 12.10.162.2. The number
of blows landed by Ryouga is zero (0), none, nada, zilch, nil. The
number of blows landed by Ranma is one (1), and it results in Ryouga
being disoriented as he falls to the ground. If that is doing fine, then
you are using a different interpretation than I am.
> >>No, Ryouga was slowly wearing down Lime up till the point
> >>where Mint smacked him in the back and stunned him long
> >>enough for Lime to get a solid hit in. At that point Ryouga
> >>had all but lost.
> >He got all of three shots off... how that is wearing anyone down
> >the way they fight is something I don't understand. Realize that
> Look at Lime; he is bruised and obviously angry at Ryouga. Also, Ryouga was
> getting confident aobut his strategy, which he normally doesn't do unless he's
> winning.
Let's take a look, the fight starts on 24.6.87.3 and continues until
24.7.108.1 when the Shishihoukoudan lands. During the fight Ryouga
lands one punch (24.6.88.1), and two kicks (24.6.89.2 and 24.6.95.3).
This all of three blows, the next thing Ryouga does is the
Shishihoukoudan. In the mean time, Lime lands a few blows himself,
24.6.88.2 (a clothesline), 24.6.96.4 (a punch while Ryouga is
distracted), 24.6.98.1-2 (Ryouga abandons his strategy and "goes for
the kill"). So in review, Ryouga lands four blows, and Lime lands
three. Lime has the advantage in the begining and towards the end
of the fight. If Ryouga was so confident in his strategy then why
did he abandon it after Lime landed his second blow?
Let us compare this with the Bakusaitenketsu storyline after Ranma
used the Saotome Secret Techinque. The fight here lasts from
6.8.120.4 through 6.8.129.3 (where Ryouga passes out). Ryouga gets
in one (1), count them, one (1), shot in, 6.8.122.3. Ranma gets in
five (5) shots of his Kachuutenshinamaguriken variant (6.8.122.2,
6.8.123.4, 6.8.125.1, 6.8.126.4, and 6.8.129.1-2).
> >Mint revived Lime within minutes of Ryouga's super blow.
> Uhh...Mint did no such thing. What the hell are you reading?
I'm wrong here, Herb is the one who wakes them up.
> >>> >The point being, Ranma did not defeat Saffron because he was
> >>> >good. He defeated Saffron because he was lucky.
> >
> >>> Ryouga defeated Lime because he was lucky.
> >
> >>He was loosing the Lime because he was unlucky.
> >Ryouga was losing to Lime the same way Ranma is always losing to
> >Ryouga. Ryouga is specifically using Ranma's tactics so it can
> >only result in the usual outcome of the fights between Ryouga and
> >Ranma.
> >Besides, as you like to say, luck has nothing do with it.
> 9_9
> And you criticise Aaron for being sarcastic. Does the word "hypocrite"
> hold any meaning for you, Chelian?
Sure, I even understand multisyllablic English words (shock and horror).
Here is what I said that had "sarcasm" in it in the post you responded to.
"You see what I mean. I'd prefer you attempt to insult me outright,
rather than try and imply things through tricks of language. I can
after all read, and I even know the meaning of irony and sarcasm."
Here is what Epsilon said:
"Your sarcasm leaves me speechless. I conceed that Ryouga is
not, single-handedly, apble to beat every single member of
the cast at once and that he never, at any point managed to
do a Kamehameha."
I said in reply:
"Counter sarcasm noted."
I think I was engaging in hyperbole and sarcasm. Epsilon was the one
who possibly implied that sarcasm was bad. I don't see where I implied
that sarcasm is bad, I think it is an amusing form of hyperbole in
certain contexts.
To reiterate, I did not critcise Epsilon for sarcasm as Blade is implying
(conveinently cutting out the relevant text so that people cannot see that
he is not being quite... umm... fully accurate). The implication that
sarcasm is bad is from Blade specifically, and Epsilon may have been
implying it, but I see no reason drag him into this particular mess. In
some places this is known as an ad homenim attack, and an unsubstantiated
one at that. Also known as character assasination and "being rude and
insulting" (especially since if I was insulting anyone, it was Epsilon and
not Blade -- unless they are the same person).
I also have no objection to using people's arguments against them to show
the inconsistencies of their arguments.
> Ryouga was beating Lime because he was outsmarting and outmanouvring Lime. He
> was NOT using Ranma's tactics, and never said he was. He specifically says he's
> using the speed he's developed from his many fights with Ranma, and nothing
> about tactics whatsoever. In fact, I defy you to find a fight in the manga
> where Ranma does anything like what Ryouga was doing.
Sure, the Bakusaitenketsu story arc where Ryouga is really tough for Ranma
to hurt. It's not my fault you have trouble drawing parallels or seeing
them (and for those who don't get it, I am insulting Blade in the same
manner that he is insulting me).
Let me quote from the manga.
24.6.90.1 Ryouga: "Speed ha Ranma hodo ja nee ya! Fu Ranma yo...
24.6.90.2 Ryouga: "Kisama to no higoro kozeriai, kekkou yaku ni tachisou
da ze.
"His speed is no place near Ranma's! Ha Ranma."
"Those days that I skirmished with you will stand me in good stead."
He then proceeds to stay out of the way of Lime's attacks and gets in
his blows when he can. This looks very reminiscent of Ranma in the
Bakusaitenketsu story arc.
> If you're going to argue from a story, it helps if you've actually READ the
> story.
It sure does doesn't it. BTW, I did fairly well for memories that were
years old.
> >>Ranma did a -slight- injury to Tarou. True that match never
> >>went anywhere else but Ranma hardly had a commanding
> >>advantage at that point.
> >Pantsutaro was injured the next day, and went out of his way to
> >hurt Ranma in the same way. If it is important enough to remember
> >then it must have hurt. After all, he wasn't feeling very well
> >and needed it bandaged (which Akane did). At any rate, note that
> >this was about Ranma and improvisation. After all, I did state
> >that in a colesium match Tarou would probably win.
> Ranma is a good improvisor, there is no doubt of that. I'll even say that,
> overall, he's a better improvisor than Ryouga. But Ryouga is hardly incompetent
> at it, and Ranma's skill at improvisation does not and has not made up for the
> fact that he is an utterly lousy strategist and tactician.
Ranma is a lousy strategist. I'm not sure that you can say he's a bad
tactician. Besides, Ryouga shows no better abilities at it. BTW, since
you are the one expousing a positive position, it is up to you to
provide proof, and for me to show why your proof is irrelevant or
insufficient. I still say that I haven't seen anyone improvise better
than Ranma. I showed my proof, Epsilon showed his, I note that Blade
has shown ... wait for it... no proof at all, just an unsupported and
unsubstantiated statement.
> >>> As for Lime not feeling it, I'll note that the twister doesn't
> >>> hurt much if there isn't debris in it, and it is the landing that
> >>> hurts most in that case.
> >>No, that isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the
> >>funnel of "cold ki" that is trapped inside it, like a
> >>pressure cannon that blasts those inside and is contained
> >>within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado. The wind and
> >>debris and landing do little damage. This is why Herb was
> >>able to become immune to the Hiryushotenha by emitting cold
> >>ki so that he was carried up inside of it.
> >Look, all that does it toss people up in the air and disorient
> >them. After all, Akane survived one with mussed hair and disarrayed
> >clothes. Ranma when he was weak survived one, Lime, Mint, Herb,
> >Mousse, Kuno, the principal, and Gosunkugi all survived one, only
> >suffering a knock out. When Ranma was in the twister (defeating
> >Happosai/Ranma weak story line), Ranma was hurt by the stuff in
> >the twister not much by the twister itself. Unless you have some
> >evidence or examples to back yourself up I win this point.
> Aaron has already thoroughly refuted this.
I'll point out that he has not. He said that, and I quote, "No, that
isn't what hurts about the Hiryushotenha. It's the funnel of "cold ki"
that is trapped inside it, like a pressure cannon that blasts those
inside and is contained within the swirling "hot ki" of the tornado.
The wind and debris and landing do little damage. This is why Herb was
able to become immune to the Hiryushotenha by emitting cold ki so that
he was carried up inside of it."
I replied that since a bunch of inferior martial artists, including
Akane and Tatewaki survived the monstrous Hiryuushotenha in volume 12,
the cold ki itself cannot be that damaging. Note that Tatewaki is near
the center when the Hiryuushotenha was unleashed.
If this is throughly refuted then, well, you have different standards
for refutation than I do.
But I'll point out one thing: Ryouga
> was ripped to shreds and nearly killed by being caught in the center. Obviously
> it wasn't "being tossed up and disoriented" that did it, and just as obviously
> the other people hadn't caught the full-on blast.
> Also, if it was just wind and disorientation, what the HELL would Herb's
> covering himself in cold chi do about it?
Simple, since he was carried up with the cold wind and didn't get pulled
into the whirlwind at the sides he wasn't really caught in the wind and
disorientation. As for why he was so successful coming down, it is
because he is a trained martial artist and can do that sort of stuff,
especially when not disoriented.
> >>That is exactly the proof. In Ranma worst moments (like when
> >>he thinks Akane is dead) he is not as depressed as Ryouga is
> >>in his worst moments (like when he thinks he is dead).
> >>Proof is in the pudding, as they say.
> >So it is just a matter of degree of emotion. Perhaps if Ranma
> >wound up thinking he is dead he would be able to pull off a
> >nasty perfect SSH? Of course we haven't seen Ranma in many
> >worst moments, he tends to win way before that.
> Ranma doesn't have Ryouga's neurotic hang-ups. Ranma gets mad, not
> depressed.
Then if he gets really angry he can equal Ryouga's Shishihoukoudan with
an anger blast, right?
> >>Ryouga has improvised new Shishihokodan's in mid-fight with
> >>Ranma in their first re-match in the SHD story.
> >If you believe that all of them are variations. They just look
> >like regular SSHs to me. He did learn to do them one handed is
> >the way I took it to mean. And I'll give him credit for that.
> >Ryuu has
> >>performed two variants of his "Kijin Raishu Dan" move which
> >>powered it up, the Kijin Dai Ran Bu and the Sai Dai Kyo
> >>Kijin Raishu Dan.
> >Regular and "highest level" KJRSD. Same as Ryouga and regular
> >and perfect (and no other variants) for the SSH. No sign of
> >innovation for Ryuu here I'm sorry to say.
> You didn't read THAT story, either. Read it and then come back.
Okay, I read it. He performs three variants, the regular Kijinraishudan
(28.8.127.2 and 28.9.134.1), the Kijingudairanbu (28.8.142.3, which he
calls the Yamasenken Ultimate Secret Technique Part Two 28.8.142.1, which
implies that it is in the scroll), and the Saidaikyuu Kijinraishudan
(which is the highest level Kijinraishudan, and probably not a variant at
all). So I count no improvised or innovative things for Tarou at all.
Thank you, if you hadn't insulted me, then I wouldn't have gone back and
checked, you helped me prove my point.
> >He has also came up with a variant of his
> >>Golden Rope Binding Soar (forget the Japanese) which allowed
> >>him to spin it over his head and snap it in place around
> >>Ranma's neck and multiple other variants on his moves in
> >>that fight.
> >I'll grant you this one. Also remember that Ranma reinvented
> >most of the Umisenken from the one session his father showed
> >him.
> Ranma did nothing of the sort. He copied the moves his father used. Everything
> else he learned from the scroll he got from Nodoka, as is specifically stated.
He had about thirteen lines of the scroll in the letter. You cannot
reinvent all of it from that. You should take a look at the letter in
the manga, it is a description of the art, not a guide, it says things
such as, "Using the Umisenken is about quitely and carefully leaving the
place... After all, Umisenken is..." You can find it on 28.5.77.4. Also
note that Ranma has been practicing his Umisenken by stealing things from
the Tendou dojo and moving them around. In fact, Genma says on
28.4.65.1-2, "Ranma! While he's my son, he is a scary guy!! After having
the moves demonstrated to him just once... he has seen and understood the
essence of Umisenken!!" (Note that this is before the scroll comes by.)
And we know that Ranma never gets the whole scroll because Nodoka is
making envelopes from it on 28.10.164.7, and there is a whole bunch of
scroll left over. And yes, he gets the description of the small furoshiki
moves from the scroll, he says so specifically on 28.7.116.1, but since
you can now see a bunch of the scroll you couldn't see before, you see that
the moves involving the oofuroshiki cannot be on the scroll. I submit that
Ranma invented those moves from what he understood as the essence of the
Umisenken.
You may feel free to try and refute this. You have my references down to
the page and the panel.
> >Tarou doesn't USE special techniques but in
> >>monster form was easily able to adapt his ink-shooting
> >>ability to block a stream of hot water.
> >This is innovation? I'd be more impressed if you had cited his
> As much as using two Moko Takabishas.
I haven't seen anyone else doing more than one ki blast at a time.
And I give it credit as half and innovation in this section that I am
arguing (specifically about Ranma's ability to innovate).
> >taking the chimney top off with his tentacles to clobber Ranma,
> >there he used what was at hand to attack an opponent from an
> >entirely new situation. Of course, Ranma got him into the chimney
> >in the first place. I'm not sure most straight blocking techniques
> >would be counted as innovations.
> When Tarou can block Ranma's attacks in monster form at all, that's fairly
> impressive, given the size and speed difference between the two. And in that
> case, it was an important aid to his battle.
Well alright. Why don't we call it a good improvisation? That
raises the count of innovations you have provided examples for to
three (3).
> >Ryouga adapted the
> >>Bakusaitenketsu from a move which directly attacks the
> >>opponent to an attack meant to send a shower of rocks at his
> >>enemy.
> >That's just a side effect of the bakusaitenketsu. Designed
> >in from the start, nothing new. Bakusaitenketsu never ever
> >directly attacked the opponent, Cologne stated as much.
> Bakusai ten ketsu was never an ATTACK, Cologne stated as much. Ryouga
> turned it into one.
The Bakusaitenketsu never directly attacks an opponent as Epsilon states
in the paragraph to which I am responding. Cologne demonstrates as much
on Ranma's body. Do you see why I am disagreeing with his statement?
> Comprendez-vous?
Yes, I even know some French. Can you read English?
> >Ryouga uses one of his spinning bandana's as a
> >>blocking shield.
> >I don't remember this actually. When? He usually uses his
> >umbrella to block.
> Love Koi story, Volume 23, intergral to Ryouga's victory over Ranma.
Victory... alright we can call it that. Let's keep in mind that
Ryouga is the one who challenged Ranma-female 23.10.160.5, previous to
that Ranma was not fighting Ryouga, but rather trying to "land" him.
Ryouga doesn't manage to land blow on Ranma until he manages to deflect
the suction cup with what looks like a desperation move on his part.
He has previously used his bandannas to tie Ranma's wrist, and as
shuriken. Here he seems to be using it as a shuriken. The suction
cup hits and Ranma's eyes go blank 23.10.161.7. Ryouga knew about this
beforehand.... Wait, there no evidence that Ryouga knows that the
suction cup will disable someone temporarily. So he couldn't have
planned for it. Ryouga gets one good shot in and Ranma is awake when he
lands close by Akane. Ryouga lucked out that the fishing rod stopped
Ranma's movement, so it wasn't skill. Ranma wasn't KO'd, so Ryouga
didn't win by KO. Ryouga then hugs Ranma, realizes it, freezes up and
gets pounded into the ground. I don't think anyone won that fight, I
think they both withdrew.
> >>The list goes on and on...
> >I saw two things of innovation in you list with a possible third.
> >I'm afraid that doesn't match Ranma.
> How often does Ranma fight compared to everybody else? Quality over quantity.
> The point is, other people when necessary, especially Ryouga, have improvised as
> well or better than Ranma.
Your statement, you give proof. You just made an assertion. I offered
proof saying that Ranma improvised more than most of the other characters.
As for improvising as well or better, the essence of innovation is how
often you can do it. If you come up with one really good innovation in
your entire life, and the rest of it is by the book are you a great
innovater? Greater than the one who has improvised several times the
number of times you have?
You also stated above that:
"Ranma is a good improvisor, there is no doubt of that. I'll even say that,
overall, he's a better improvisor than Ryouga. But Ryouga is hardly
incompetent"
Also note that I do not say that Ryouga is incompentent or that he *never*
improvises. I just say that Ranma is better than all the others who show
up in the manga. I've offered proof, we've compared numbers, and so far
Ranma has improvised more than any other character in the manga.
[snip Herb vs. Ranma fight]
> >>> >In the same story Lime defeats Ryouga -once- (by surprise).
> >>> Suprise my ass... Ryouga was the one who attacked Lime because
> >>> Lime was carrying Akane away. If you mean that Ryouga was
> >>> suprised by Lime's strength and toughness then fine.
> >>This is what I mean yes. I will conceede that fights in
> >>which you have no clue what your opponent is capable of will
> >>often turn out one-sided.
> >Which is how Ryouga won against Ranma when Ryouga learned the SSH.
> But not either of the rematches, which Ryouga also won.
Which one? He beat Ranma down in one of the rematches. At the end of
the second rematch, Ranma was the one standing after walking out of the
crater.
> >>Presumably. Lime states that he was hurt by Ryouga's attack.
> >>After that, it is only a matter of time. Lime demonstrates
> >>no superhuman healing factor after all.
> >Neither does Ryouga. Or for that matter Ranma.
> That's just stupid. Ranma's healing factor is extremely well-documented.
Then you provide documentation. I'll be providing counter documentation
in a separate post.
> >>> Besides, if you'd paid attention, he is copying the tactics Ranma
> >>> usually uses against him (and we know Ranma has never ever beaten
> >>> Ryouga).
> >
> >>So? This only proves that Ryouga can learn and adapt from
> >>the styles his opponents use against him.
> >It isn't innovation. It's just copying.
> Just like Ranma copied the Hiryuu Shoten Ha, the Shishi Hokodan, the Umisenken,
> the Amaguriken, his entire martial arts style...?
That is correct that he copied the Hiryuushotenha, the shishihoukoudan,
and the Kachuutenshiamaguriken. But it is not true that he copied all
of the Umisenken (I have my reasons stated above) or the Moukoutakabisha.
In fact, you specifically state that, "Ranma is a good improvisor, there
is no doubt of that. I'll even say that, overall, he's a better improvisor
than Ryouga. But Ryouga is hardly incompetent"
> Innovation is using what you've learned from others in new ways. And again,
> Ryouga was not using Ranma's tactics at all.
You specifically state that Ranma is a better improviser. Could you
please explain the about face and recantation of your statement? I can
tell you why the Ryouga vs. Lime fight is almost exactly like the Ranma
vs. Ryouga fight in the Bakusaitenketsu, but I shall leave it as an exercise
for you and any readers to draw the parallels.
> >>> Yeah, and Ranma had the benefit of scrolls and depression just
> >>> like Ryouga did. Ryouga didn't have any help from Akane in
> >>> getting depressed. Ranma figured out a new move almost from
> >>> scratch in the time it took Ryouga to perfect a move. I guess
> >>> you'll have to show me how Ryouga learns faster as you state
> >>> below.
> >>I'm sure that arrow was a big help to Ryouga. Ryouga asked
> >>for Akane's help, that was the trigger of the move. He still
> >>figured out the trigger himself. Also note that that scroll
> >>did NOT talk about a combat technique. In fact, it is
> >>specifically stated that the SHD is not a combat technique
> >>originally and that Ryouga had to "revise" it in order to
> >>make it combat worthy. So really all that scroll said was
> >>"get depressed."
> >Sigh... Bakusaitenketsu isn't a combat move either. Ryouga even says
> >that if it can blow rocks away, it should be able to blow Ranma away.
> >There is no indication that SSH needs any modification to use against
> >people.
> Except that it specifically says in the story it is not normally a weapon and
> that most people can't use it like Ryouga does?
> And that Ryouga had to adapt it to use it in a fight?
Actually he rarely uses it in a fight after he finds out that it isn't
effective against humans. Ryouga tries to use it as a weapon against
Ranma almost all the time against Ranma, not the ground. He uses it
against the ground once 6.7.104.3 to set up a smoke screen, and once to
get out of where he is buried 6.7.109.2. So I guess he adapted it once
as a smoke screen, distance attack (or he was just demonstrating the
attack, who knows), the rest of the time he just missed.
> >>> >In other words, Ryouga's learning and adaptation curve are,
> >>> >from evidence, just as high if not higher than Ranma's.
> >>>
> >>> Really... you know Ranma learned HRSTH in three days (you can look
> >>> at the translation if you want). The most of it was learning to
> >>> control his emotions, he figured out the basics of the move the
> >>> first time he was shown it (hey, Ryouga has done that too, right,
> >>> with BSTK, and the SSH -- oh, right, he was taught those two by
> >>> other people).
> >
> >>Actually, Ranma didn't figure out the basics of the move. He
> >>figured out the spiral pattern, but not how it worked or how
> >>to set it off. The fact he used it the first time he did was
> >>a fluke. ;p He still had plenty of help from Cologne
> >>however.
> >
> >The most important part of the training was Ranma learning to keep
> >his cool. Once he learned to do that and stay on the spiral he
> >did the rest himself. After all, Cologne even goes and says, "Darn,
> >I forgot to tell him the final move." Ranma figures it out for
> >himself and Cologne says, "He figured it out for himself." i.e.
> >it wasn't a fluke that he pulled the move off.
> Ranma says it's a fluke, and I think he's in a better position to judge than
> you.
And I need you to tell me the page and panel it is on. Ranma thanks
Ryouga for helping him master the Hiryuushotenha on 12.8.124.1-2, on
the previous page he says things like, "Man, I don't want anyone to
die, I hope things work out. That last single punch... I'm awesome
for letting that loose. Incredibly awesome. There are not words for
how awesome I am. But, since I was able to think of freezing my blood
while being attacked by Ryouga, I was able to get the cold 'ki'."
If you have a problem with my translation, then you should provide your
own and show where mine is wrong. If not, then I do not see where Ranma
says that it is a fluke. Perhaps you should reread those pages? I'm
not sure what you were reading but I am fairly confident I am in a better
position to judge than you. And I am fairly confident I am in a better
position to judge what Ranma said than you as well.
> >>As for the three days thing... well Ryouga has only ever
> >>learned two "specials" so he have no third special from
> >>around the same time to compare the two at.
> >In the mean time Ranma has learned the Hiryuushotenha, the Kachuutenshi
> >Amaguriken, the Umisenken, the Mokotakabisha, the Shishihokodan (not
> >the perfect version, though he's figured out how Ryouga does it), and
> >came up with a fair number of variations on several of the moves.
> And yet Ryouga still beats him. Which just goes to show that fancy special
> moves really don't mean shit if you're not as skilled as your opponent.
I disagree with your assertion that Ryouga beats Ranma. I agree that there
are occasions where Ryouga beats Ranma. There are also occasions where
Tatewaki beats Ranma and Mousse beats Ranma. I disagree with your assertion
that Ryouga is more skilled than Ranma. I disagree that skill is always the
most important factor in a fight.
I'll be posting more on this separately.
> >>Also remember, that special moves are NOT the be all and end
> >>all of Ranma martial arts. They are like a punch or a kick,
> >>useful, but knowing how to use one or the other when your
> >>opponent doens't will not gaurentee your victory.
> >No, but having more options always helps. And you make a good point,
> >remember that most of these attacks have their weak points. For example,
> >Ryouga's perfect SSH only works near ground zero.
> The Perfect SSH has many more weaknesses than that; which isn't even much of a
> weakness if he gets really depressed, as Volume 24 shows very explicitly.
It's still a weakness, and I never said it was the only weakness. Ryouga
cannot really unleash the Shinshishihoukoudan on someone who is running away.
> >>> >Uh, no, you have this the wrong way around. It is RANMA who
> >>> >must learn a new technique to beat RYOUGA. Before the
> >>> >Amaguriken Ryouga POUNDED Ranma six ways from sunday.
> >
> >>> Really? When? It didn't look like Ryouga was pounding Ranma
> >>> in the school yard fight, in fact, until Akane got stuck, it
> >>> looked like Ranma was comfortably in charge.
> >
> >>?
> >
> >>When did Ranma KO Ryouga in that fight? Ryouga was not
> >>exactly pounding Ranma around, but then again, he wasn't
> >>easily putmanuevering Ranma. That match seemed pretty even
> >>really.
> >Then that gives lie to your original statement.
> That was not the only fight the two had before the Amaguriken arc, I feel the
> need to point out.
Sure... I'll be going over those seperately. I think Ranma won most
of those.
> >>> Then of course there is the ice rink fight where Ryouga boldly
> >>> takes on Ranma after Ranma has been smashed into the rink side by
> >>> the Merry-Go-Round of Parting.
> >>You forget Ranma's well-documented healing factor. For a
> >>look at that check out the Tarou fight in volume 18. Tarou
> >>takes an injury and a night later it hasn't healed. He then
> >>give Ranma the same injury. In MINUTES Ranma has healed,
> >>while Tarou is still injured.
> >Really? Considering that you can't see Ranma's shoulder can you
> >really say if Ranma has a healing factor or just compensates well.
>
> You don't "compensate" for broken bones. Get a clue, Chelian.
> (There. That unsubtle enough for you?)
Sure Blade. I don't see any evidence that anyone at any point in
the Ranma series suffers from broken bones except for Ranma at the end
of Reversal Jewel story arc. You can find the picture at 22.10.164.4.
Do you have any other pictures of people with broken bones? Do you
have any idea what broken bones (not ribs) do for the ability of a
person whose bones are broken to move the injured limb? Do you know
what the recommended treatment for broken or cracked ribs are? The
only character I can see experiencing any of these are Ranma, which
may mean that everyone but Ranma has a healing factor.
You may now present your evidence. I want to see broken bones. Here
is a free clue, from the Instant Nanniichuan story arc, Akane has a
bandaged hand. I'm not sure exactly what happened to it, but it doesn't
look like a broken hand (bones do not set in one hour -- 8.2.30.3 --
unless Akane also has a healing factor), it may be dislocated though.
Bandages are not enough to set broken bones. You need a splint at the
very least.
When you find that you cannot specifically find that bones were broken,
you can tell me how Ranma has a healing factor. Keep in mind that it
is possible to compensate for cracked ribs, it just involves being careful
and having a very high pain tolerance.
Otherwise, I am the one with a clue. I would recommend a first aid class,
it has all sorts of information about injuries you might find useful.
I will also note that you are being insulting here.
> >When did Ranma get this healing factor? It certainly wasn't
> >around when he had his first fight with Ryouga (the initial cut he
> >gets from Ryouga's thumb stays with him throughout the day.
> As already noted, it improves throughout the series.
Where was it noted? All I find in Epsilon's post were a bunch of
statements (unsupported I might add) that Ranma had a healing factor
that others did not.
> I note you didn't respond to his evidence. There's that hypocrisy again...
You use that word very often, I do not think it means what you think it
means.
> >>Also, you only state those points salient to your position.
> >Of course, if you had points salient to your position it is your
> >job to bring them up.
> And your job, apparently, to completely ignore them?
No, I addressed almost every single point that he made. Which is why
my post was so long. By contrast, you and Epsilon have let many of
my statements and proof pass unchallenged.
> >>The match-up situation was:
> >
> >>1) Ranma has taken one Merry-go-round attack. Not a big
> >>factor as he was healed mostly by the time that fight
> >>started.
> >Considering that Ryouga was popping Ranma joints immediately
> >before and during the fight, I don't see how you can say it
> >was healed. Either way, Ranma is one tough bad-ass whether it
> >is just toughness or a healing factor.
> Not during the fight at all. And Ranma goes from not being able to stand up to
> being able to do acrobatic manouvres. If that isn't clear enough evidence for
> you...well, then you're being willfully dense and no amount of proof will
> convince you to admit you're wrong.
"Sono okotoba, sono mama sokkuri kaesu zo." Sizer (Violinist of Hamelin).
In other words speak for yourself. It is true that there were no more
joint poppings while Ryouga was attacking Ranma, but there were several
popping while they were still fighting the Golden Pair.
There is also no evidence that Ranma actually broke his bones, the only
thing Mikado says is that, "His bones are messed up." That's on
4.1.18.4. Azusa says on the same panel, "If he's living he's a monster."
There is only one person who says that Ranma's bones are broken. And we
know, or at least I know, that Ranma is a better martial artist in general
than Mikado. So Mikado is not necessarily qualified to make that
statement. Neither Ryouga or Akane, who are probably better judges of
what Ranma can do, say that his bones are broken. The closest Ryouga comes
is his statment on 4.2.28.4, "Omae ha, karadajuu gattagata nandakara...",
which doesn't seem to be saying that his bones are broken, just that his
body is "rattling".
Now please tell me how Ranma is not a bad-ass for surviving the move and
either compensating for his injuries or having a healing factor (which I
disagree with).
> >>2) Ranma is in girl form. Weaker, but faster and more agile.
> >Sigh, do you think Ryouga is tougher than Mousse? If Mousse could
> >beat Ranma due to speed, strength, and reach considerations (before
> >Ranma learned distance attacks and the Amaguriken) then Ryouga
> >would have wiped the floor with Ranma's female form. Agility didn't
> >matter as much in that case.
> Except Ranma beat Mousse. Have dealt with this elsewhere.
The fight starts on 5.8.122 and goes through 5.9.147. During the fight,
Ranma lands one kick as a female to knock Mousse's glasses off, 5.9.142.1,
while Mousse has somehow managed to tear off all of Ranma-female's
clothes once, and has generally been making life miserable for Ranma.
Ranma has been dodging well, but it is a matter of time before Mousse
wears him down. Mousse has also got in at least one good kick in on
5.8.131.4. Ranma, once he changes back to a males KOs Mousse with two
kicks (5.9.146.1 and 5.9.147.2). Since Ranma was unable to hurt Mousse
in female form, I suggest that Ranma would have lost because Mousse was
wearing Ranma down.
I don't see where you dealt with this elsewhere as I can find no mention
of Mousse in the rest of your post.
> >>3) Ranma has learned how to skate, Ryouga has not.
> >Why is that? Why does it matter much after Ryouga destroys the
> >ice part of the pool? After all, Ryouga specifically destroys the
> >ice rink to lessen his non-skating disadvantage.
> How does it matter? It matter during the DAMN MATCH, because Ryouga is still
> wearing skates and still on ice. He even falls down at least once because of
> this.
Ranma can't skate very well either, you can take a look at 3.9.174 to see
his entrance. You can also take a look at 3.9.181-182 to see how well
Ranma can stop (i.e. go off the rink wall).
Ryouga has eliminated the advantage that being able to skate gives a person.
If that is not enough to offset his disadvantage of not being able to skate
then that's tough. I don't think Ryouga has any particular problems with
balance.
Ryouga falls down twice, 4.2.34.5 which is a set up for the "couple
cleaver", and 4.3.53.2 which leaves him open for a kick from Mikado, which
can't hurt too much. After that he doesn't fall again, except when he
makes misjudgements about how ice can crack, and Ranma suffers as badly as
he does in those cases.
> >>4) Ryouga was, essentially, fighting -three- people, not
> >>just Ranma.
> >Not really. There is just one attack he makes against Mikado after
> >Azusa jumps onto him. The rest of the time he is just going after
> >Ranma. Mikado and Azusa leave the rink almost immediately after
> Wrong. Mikado attacks him at one point and Ryouga has to beat him off.
Mikado kicks Ryouga as he and Ranma are sliding into the water, preventing
Ryouga from turning into P-chan and defaulting on the match, this is on
4.3.52.4. Mikado then lands on Ryouga after Ryouga slips. Mikado is
removed from the match almost immediately afterwards when Ryouga does the
two pieces of ice smash after that, note that Azusa has landed on Ryouga
on 4.3.59.1. That is two attacks they make against Ryouga, one of which
actually helps Ryouga. The rest of the time Ryouga is attacking Ranma
apart from the one attack he makes exclusively against Mikado, the second
attack he makes on Mikado hits Ranma as well. Note that I am considering
this fight from when Ryouga makes his challenge to Ranma.
> My god, man, do you read ANY of these stories or are you just going on hearsay?
No, I'm not going on hearsay.
> >that, the only real move they had before that was the Merry-Go-Round
> >attack.
> >>5) Ryouga could not risk getting wet in the slightest, thus
> >>meaning he had a limited number of moves avialable.
> >True. But he took advantage of Ranma's misunderstanding that Ryouga
> >was going to fight against Mikado first.
> Ryouga challenged Ranma directly. Ranma shows no signs of thinking they were
> going to team up; she was just surprised when Ryouga made a preemptive attack.
> Not that it makes a difference, since Ryouga didn't so much attack as move the
> match to a comfortably safe distance. If Ryouga had been trying to attack, he
> would have HIT Ranma, not tossed him away for no reason.
Here are the exact words of the challenge: Ranma, ore to otoko no shoubu
wo shiro. Ore ka, omae ka, saki ni taoreta hou ga, Akane-san wo akirameru.
"Ranma, take on a man's challenge against me. You or me, the first one
down gives up on Akane."
Note that it doesn't say that he's going to be fighting against Ranma right
away. Ranma even says that he doesn't know what Ryouga is thinking. I
think Ranma was expecting that they go against the Golden Pair, and the
first one down would lose, it is a possible interpretation of the
challenge.
Ryouga may have moved to a safe distance, but I think his primary objective
was to take everyone down with the first block of ice.
> >>6) Akane was interfering, but her interference could have
> >>been inhibitng to both. She just threw a chunk of ice, not
> >>at ranma in particular.
> >No, she threw one at Ranma in particular, Ryouga took advantage
> >of it to land a kick on Ranma, and one at both which hit both.
> Wrong again. She threw one in-between them that Ryouga reacted to faster, and
> one that hit both of them.
Let's see if you find this insulting: Oh this is so wrong and misguided
it hurts. (If it's insulting then Epsilon insulted me first, otherwise
I guess I did.)
Why don't you look at 4.4.71.4? This is first ice boulder Akane throws.
At this point Ranma is going to change the fight from Ranma-female vs.
Ryouga-male to Ranma-female vs. Ryouga-pig. I'm fairly sure that Ranma
would win that fight unless Akane intervenes. Akane manages to hit the
both of them so that Ryouga's secret is not exposed, the fight is not
changed, and Ranma is at the bottom of the pile when the stuff lands
4.4.72.3. Why don't you further look at 4.4.74.4? There are two people
in the air (Ranma bouncing back after Ryouga knocked him into the air,
and Ryouga). Unless you are blind or reading a different manga than I
am (hey, turnabout is fairplay right), then one of the two is dodging
because there is an ice boulder thrown at them. Free clue, it is not
Ryouga. Ryouga gets a clean kick in. Ranma was air-borne first, Ryouga
was *second* getting off the ground.
You are wrong on all counts except that one hit them both.
> >>> In
> >>> >fact, in his fights Ryouga uses LESS "special" techniques
> >>> >than Ranma does.
> >>> Really... How often has Ranma used a "special" technique against
> >>> Ryouga or Mousse?
> >>Ranma uses the Amaguriken everytime he fights. He doens't
> >>-shout- Amaguriken however, but there are several times
> >>against both that he uses the "blurred fist" attack.
> >
> >I count him using it in one fight against Ryouga. You'll have
> >to point me to other examples. If the Amaguriken makes Ranma
> <sigh> Against Kunou in Volume 13, against Tarou in Volume 18 (twice) and
> against Genma in Volume 36. There's four examples. Since you can obviously
> stand to reread the manga, why don't you go find some more?
I guess you count everytime his fists blur... should I count everyplace
where Ryouga is hit?
> >stronger and faster then Ryouga uses the Bakusaitenketsu every
> >time he fights because it made him tougher. I guess that evens
> >out.
> In that case, Ranma uses the Amaguriken in every fight because it's what made
> him faster overall. Not to mention his training in, say, martial arts
> cheerleading and his Umisenken training.
What does his martial arts cheerleading contribute to his regular
martial arts? The Umisenken I can see, but there are very few major
fights after that point in the manga. The big ones are the Tarou vs.
Ashura one, and the Saffran fight.
> However, as that's just plain stupid, why don't we stick to fights where they
> actually use the MOVE?
Well then, how do you define "use the MOVE"? Does he have to call the
attack? What is the dividing line? Is it just when his fists blur?
His fists blur in his fight against his father (1.2.49.4). When his
body blurs? Take a look at 1.1.24.4. Ranma was really fast before he
got his Kachuutenshinamaguriken training.
> >>> I count the "Saotome Final Technique" (and a
> >>> variation of the Amaguri-Ken), and the MKTBS (which was a counter
> >>> to the SSH). By contrast, Ryouga learned one of his special
> >>> techniques (BSTK) specifically to "beat" Ranma, and one of the few
> >>> fights he won against Ranma was when he learned his second special
> >>> technique (SSH).
> >>Ryouga learned that technique ONLY when Ranma had learned
> >>the Amaguriken. By this token, Ranma learned the Amaguriken
> >>only to get the Pheonix Pill from Cologne.
> >You mean Cologne specifically taught Ryouga the move to help him
> >keep up with Ranma.
> Because she had taught Ranma something else? Yep.
Ryouga didn't even want to learn the move. He accepted after Ranma
humiliated him. This, BTW, is a fight that Ryouga lost.
> >He also learned
> >>the Shishihokodan and had no intention of challngeing Ranma
> >>with it seriously, he only wanted to try it out and see how
> >>well he had adapted it. It was only when Ranma insisted on
> >>fighting him that Ryouga turned it into a slugfest.
> >Um... in the manga, Ryouga said, "I don't have much confidence
> >in it, but if you'll help me try it out." i.e. Ryouga was
> >specifically planning to use it against Ranma.
> Yes, but not in a fight. It was Ranma who made it a fight as opposed to a
> sparring match.
Ryouga would have used it against Ranma in a fight. In fact, he does.
Once he has learnt the move he wants to use it against Ranma and will
use it against Ranma. Epsilon stated that Ryouga had no intention of
challenging Ranma with it seriously. I say that Ryouga did, just not
right then.
> >Ranma later says, "I was going all out."
> Yep. But that wasn't what it was supposed to be, and Ryouga even saves Ranma's
> pride by saying Ranma probably -wasn't- going full-out.
Ryouga's contest is between him and Ranma, not him and Genma or him
and Soun. Once he thinks he has humiliated Ranma enough, he doesn't
need to broadcast it. He won the fight, that is what counts.
> >>Conversely, in the Koi Rod story Ranma uses the Amaguriken
> >>several times as his opening move against Ryouga to hurt him
> >>a bit by surprise.
> >Where is this? Is this the part where Ryouga threatens to beat
> >Ranma up so that Ranma will go away? The part where Ranma goes
> >to male form and starts pounding away in a fight Ryouga started.
> No, the time when they're actually fighting.
Where is that? I'll let you actually present evidence here. As you
mostly fail to do (when you don't get it wrong).
> >Later, Ranma attacks but Ryouga deflects
> >>and beats him without a "special" attack.
> >You'll have to be more specific.
>
> For god's sakes, man, we're talking about the *formal challenge and fight* held
> at the end of the story. That isn't obvious?
>
> >>> Oh, so Kuno can take him let's say 4 fights out of 10? How
> >>> about Akane?
> >>Ryouga, Konatsu and a few others are regulars that are
> >>better than him.
> >Ryouga? Maybe, if he's just learned a special techinque or Ranma
> Ryouga beats Ranma in most of their matches fair and square, and ALL of the last
> ones in the manga.
You are blinder than you claim I am.
> Case closed. If you have new evidence, come up with it or concede the damn
> point. I'm sick of this idiocy.
You have zero evidence. Thank you for playing the game.
> >isn't to the top of his form. Konatsu? I don't see any evidence
> >that Konatsu can hang in during a long fight with Ranma.
> Aside from the fact Konatsu -did-? Although Konatsu, I feel, is around the same
> level as Ranma overall.
Ranma did not use any of his special techniques, in fact, he thought
Konatsu was female at the time and was deliberately holding back. He
didn't use the Moukoutakabisha, the Kachuutenshinamaguriken, the
Hiryuushotenha (Konatsu was attacking), or the Umisenken. So Konatsu
manages to hit Ranma and KO him (while getting KO'd himself), so what?
That doesn't mean that Konatsu can take Ranma on when Ranma pulls out
all the stops like he did against Saffran.
Konatsu is fast, and has something of the equivalent of the Umisenken.
He ambushes Ranma and takes his back, which is pretty incredible, but
he doesn't take Ranma down with his second attack (the first one misses),
and Ranma catches him and exposes his face. Akane does the most damage
in the whole encounter.
> >>Oh, and that's ANOTHER thing. Konatsu is -specifically
> >>called- the most powerful martial artist of Ranma's
> >>generation.
> >No, most powerful "kunoichi" of his generation, there is a
> >difference.
> No, the most powerful MARTIAL ARTIST. Re-read the goddamn story before you
> start quoting things. This is ridiculous, when I have to keep correcting you
> stuff YOU are supposedly quoting half a dozen times in a single post.
Tell you what I found "tensai kunoichi" in the following places.
35.6.99.5-6 Happosai says that Konatsu is the one genius kunoichi of a
hundred years
35.7.110.1
35.8.119.5
35.8.120.1.
What I did not find was any claim that Konatsu was the "most powerful
MARTIAL ARTIST". Tell you what... why don't you reread the goddamn story
and point me to the page and panel where someone (anyone) says that
Konatsu is the best martial artist of a whole generation.
It looks like I am correcting the shit you are posting (and quoting) a
half a dozen times in a single post. Blade, why don't you remove the
plank from your own eye.
> >I was just attempting to clear up whether Kuno and Akane were
> >not "normal" people. AFAIK, Kuno and Akane are among the best
> >normal humans there are in the series.
> Kunou and Akane are hardly normal, inasmuch as they are both superhuman martial
> artists the same as Ranma, just on a much lower level.
Whichever... they are not on the same level, and they cannot take
him six falls out of ten. My clarification was and is still necessary.
> >>> >Ranma is NOT as good as Ryouga. Ryouga tends to beat Ranma
> >>> >and, YES AMAZING, outsmarts Ranma on MULTIPLE occasions (and
> >>> >not just in battle).
> >>> Really? When? Ryouga beat Ranma in the SSH story arc, that I'll
> >>> grant. You mean the Ryouga who has trouble tricking Ranma into
> >>> getting to go to his house while Ranma has fooled Ryouga with a
> >>> female guise at least twice?
> >>The "Magic Soap" storyline contains some examples.
> >
> >You'll have to be specific. Do you mean Ryouga hiding the soap in
> >someplace not entirely obvious? If that is tricky then Nabiki is
> >an Einstein.
> Well, then, Ranma is hardly Einstein, is he?
No, in fact, no one in the entire show, shows any real forethought or
strategic thinking. Not even Nabiki or Cologne. It doesn't mean that
Ryouga can consistently outsmart Ranma in battle which is what Epsilon
was claiming. You provided no backing evidence, and no comparitive
statements. Simply a statement with no supporting evidence.
> >In the
> >>Bakusaitenketsu story after Ranma uses the "block" Ryouga
> >>tricks him into blocking again so that he can headbutt
> >>Ranma.
> >"Trick"? It was a good move, but Ranma often tricks Ryouga
> >the same way, i.e. he "tricked" Ryouga into letting a bakusaitenketsu
> >immediately below him so that he could knock Ryouga into the air,
> >lock all his limbs, and use his Amaguriken variant to win the fight.
> >So that one evens out then?
> Basically, yes. We're not arguing Ryouga is much smarter than Ranma, but rather
> that Ryouga is NOT much stupider than Ranma, as common convention holds.
So you are conceding that Ryouga is often somewhat stupider than
Ranma?
Please note that I am not saying that Ryouga is some sort of clinical
moron. I don't recall ever saying that. I'm saying that Ranma is
usually smarter.
> >>The the Love Koi story he outsmarts Ranma on multiple
> >>occasions.
> >A love sick Ranma who would do anything for Ryouga, up to and
> >including letting Ryouga kill him? Are you sure that is not
> >just trust and infatuation as opposed to Ryouga tricking Ranma.
> <roll eyes> Which is SO much different than Ranma doing basically the same
> thing with his various disguises.
You're right, it isn't. Except that Ryouga didn't intend for Ranma
to be that way. Ranma had a plan that involved getting Ryouga to
make bad decisions by pretending to be someone else. Ryouga got
Ranma to feel that way about him by accident, not deliberate plan.
So Ranma is tricking Ryouga with the disguise, Ryouga is not doing
the same thing.
> >>> >Ranma only ever gains one-shot victories, from a contrived
> >>> >plot oriented position.
> >>> Fine, so does Ryouga. It's a story for god's sake man. Everything
> >>> happens from a contrived plot oriented position. Your's or
> >>> Takahashi's take a pick.
> >>A yes, "Ranma will win because he will", the last defense.
> >>Frankly, I can't agrue with that logic. I'll merelt point
> >>out that it is circular, thus flawed, thus inadmissable.
> >
> >I'll merely point out that Ranma is written as the best martial artist
> >in the manga. This may not be what you like, but if he wins 80+% of
> >his fights against all these monsters, then he is a better martial
> Not even close. Ranma doesn't even have a fifty-fifty record.
I'll have to address your misconceptions in a separate post.
> >artist than Ryouga according to Takahashi. You are free to dislike it
> Which explains why Takahashi drew Ryouga beating Ranma repeatedly, I suppose.
Except that I don't agree that Takahashi drew that. I maintain that
most people think Ranma tends to beat Ryouga. I think it is only your
opinion that Ryouga is better.
> >or write your own variants, but in those cases it will be "Ryouga will
> >win because he will". i.e. you don't have a leg to stand on any more
> >than I do.
> This is a very simple concept, and I'll try to use short words, so hopefully
> everybody will get it this time.
> In the manga, Ranma is prevented from having repeated public losses by plot
> contrivance, because if it didn't, he'd be dead several times over, have lost
> Akane, and various other things.
I'll use short words too. It is a story. What the author wants to happen
will happen. If Ranma wins, he wins. If you write that Ryouga wins, he
wins. That does not mean that Ryouga is more skilled than Ranma in all
views that people have. It does not even mean that most of the people
share your view.
> But it doesn't always happen. For instance, Ranma very often loses when nobody
> is around to see; and thus Ranma doesn't care about a rematch.
> So therefore, saying "Ranma will win because the plot will contrive to make him
> win" not only is a stupid, circular, and irrelevent argument, but it also
> doesn't hold up to what actually happens in the manga.
> Now, did everybody get it that time?
Sure... you're as circular and short sighted as you ever were.
I'll have to address what you think happens in the manga in a separate
post.
> >>> Ranma has only -once- ever
> >>> >managed to KO Tarou, and that was with the help of three
> >>> >other people.
> >>> No, they get one good shot off and then get knocked out of the
> >>> fight. Ranma won with the help of Happosai and Akane.
> Several good shots. Haven't read that story either, I see.
One good shot. I'll point you to it. 18.7.115.2. There is no
real indication that any previous blows were effective. Tarou was
going strong until then.
I see your idea of "good shot" is that Tarou isn't hurt or affected
by what the others are doing, only irritated.
> >>Tarou doesn't have Ranma's healing factor, and the shot
> >>which KO'd him hit him in roughly the same spot. I think
> >>that counts. Also, he won with the help of Akane, which
> >>means he -didn't- win on his own, which proves my point.
> >I don't remember seeing a healing factor in any of the series.
> >Both Ranma and Ryouga have ungodly metabolisms that let them
> >survive medium to large helpings of Akane's food. But I don't
> >see any healing factor that cannot be explained by Ranma being
> >good at compensating for injury.
> Mostly because you weren't paying attention, obviously. As I said: can't stand
> up, five minutes later is doing acrobatics. That's not "compensating", or he'd
> always be able to compensate.
No you cannot always compensate for everything. Sometimes there are more
things than can be compensated for.
> Or severe internal injuries that heal by the time he gets home, or any number of
> other incidents.
I want volume, page, and panel on these severe internal injuries. I've
gone through and provided my evidence to you. You can do the same for me.
> >>> Which ones?
> >>There are four times Tarou and Ranma have faced off or been
> >>in comparable situations in human on human fights. First was
> >>their first meeting, but in that no clear victor or superior
> >>fighter was clear.
> >Okay. I can live with that because Tarou monstered out and
> >beat Ranma. I already admit Ranma would have lots of trouble
> >with Tarou's cursed form.
> A euphemism for "he wouldn't have a chance"?
Sure... but only against Tarou's cursed from. It does not mean
that Tarou is more skilled or more agilic or other such thing. I
think Tarou's monster form advantages are: flight, toughness, and
strength. These can compensate for lack of skill, speed and other
factors.
Here are my rules for a stadium match. No props. No leaving the
ring (or volume above the ring). No hot and cold water. You may
or may not wish to disallow special techniques and ki attacks.
Here is a theoretical example. Why don't we put an Yugo driven by
a race car driver and an M1A1 Abrhams MBT? In a collision the Yugo
will almost always come off worse... and it isn't because the Yugo
driver is a less skilled driver.
> >Second was on the cliffside. Here Tarou
> >>cheats outrageously (yes, I admit it) HOWEVER he does
> >>demonstrate that he is much faster and smarter than Ranma
> >>anyway.
> >I'm suprised that you admit he cheated... that wasn't what you
> >were saying about a year or so ago. How is he faster if Ranma
> I can pull up old posts that make a liar out of you for that, Chelian, and
> unless you take that back and apologise, I will.
Tell you what I'll do my own research. If I find that I am wrong about
this one point, I'll apologize about this one point.
> I suggest you apologise. Now.
No, I want to make sure that I'm wrong first.
> >can keep Tarou from getting wet for what appears to be quite a
> >while. It is quite possible that Tarou is more cunning and maybe
> ...
> Tarou wasn't TRYING to get wet. If he wanted to get wet, he could have done so
> long before the fight even began. Even Ranma can figure out Tarou wasn't
> seriously trying to get wet, and says so.
Tarou was waiting to get wet. He knows that he can win anytime by monstering
out. He is mocking Ranma, and if he did monster out, he would have no
compunctions about hitting Ranma (and does in fact hit Ranma when he
monsters out). Tarou cannot win against Ranma without going to monster
form. He's not strong, fast, tough, or skilled enough in his human form.
> >even street smart than Ranma is. I'll also note that this is not
> >equivalent to straight out intelligence.
> Ranma is noted to not be terribly smart in several stories. Regardless, we are
> talking about intelligence in a -fight-; and there Tarou has repeatedly proven
> his superiority.
Sure... why don't you give evidence. And actually in several cases Tarou
seems to be more intelligent because he is on the strategic offensive and
is therefore taking the initiative and calling the pace of the fight.
> >Third is in the same volume, where Happousai goes
> >>monster and attacks Tarou in human form. Tarou takes a hit
> >>but isn't KO'd, which is more than Ranma has ever done.
> >Umm... well... I'll point out that Ranma is conscious several times
> >after Happosai attacks him. After all, Ranma comes back at least
> >three times the first few times Happosai uses his pipe trick on Ranma.
> Not, however, from an all-out attack. Indeed, Ranma doesn't even try to fight
> monster-Happousai, and Akane was scared shitless when she thought he was going
> to.
Tarou does so well against monster Happosai that he is taken out in a
single shot in human form 18.11.167.6. And he is taken out in a single
shot in his monster form 18.11.170.1. Hmm... looks like the evidence
doesn't support you here either Blade.
So Akane was probably properly scared shitless when Ranma does actually
go to take on monster-Happosai, 7.11.177.4. Genma goes in for Ranma
after knocking him out of the way, 7.11.177.5. You are wrong in that
Ranma does try to fight Happosai.
> >>Fourth is in Ashura story, where Ashura blasts both Ranma
> >>and Tarou (and was aiming for Tarou so presumably he took
> >>the brunt of the blast) and Ranma gets KO'd while Tarou is
> >>still screaming defiance. Also in that story Tarou KO's
> >>Ranma with two moves (kick into air and smash with barbell)
> >Sigh, I'll have to reread these parts.
> Indeed.
Okay, I reread them. It looks like stuff thrown in for comedy.
It doesn't take Ranma out for very long either.
> >>(Snip description of second fight) D
> >>>Despite that Ranma manages to keep Tarou on the defensive for quite a >
> while.
> >>Tarou was winning on the defensive.
> >>It is a fallacy of tactical thinking to presume you can't
> >>win on the defensive.
> >True, but it does leave you in the weaker position. Tarou
> >had the tactical defensive and strategic offensive, which is
> >a great way to win.
> Weaker position?
> Study up on Julius Caesar for a pretty effective refutation of THAT.
I think Julius Caesar would agree with my statement.
> In any case, Mien Ch'uan is a defensive art. So are many other martial arts.
> Why would there be defensive martial arts if being defensive automatically
> leaves you weaker?
> Answer: it doesn't. That's a myth unsupported by any evidence.
I did not say that defensive was always weaker. Indeed, I said that
tactically defensive was the stronger position. If you are both
tactically defensive and strategically defensive, then you are in
trouble, because you don't have any choice about where to fight or
how to fight or when to fight. If you are tactically offensive but
strategically defensive then you are likely to lose.
You can go look up my statement in "War" by Clauswitz, or the "The Art
of War" by Sun Tzu. AFAIK, you can find similar statement in some of
the documents on war written by the various parts of the Department of
Defense.
Why don't you read what I wrote. Martial arts are fundamentally tactical
arts, you are usually stronger on the defensive, but you can still lose.
In certain circumstances, especially guns vs. armor, the defensive is the
weaker. You could try addressing what I actually wrote instead of going
off on a rant.
> >And if you reread my statement, I did not say that Ranma was winning.
> >
> >>> I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
> >>> writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
> >>> take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
> >>> his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
> >>> beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
> >>> broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
> >>> form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
> >>> Ranma can beat up everybody.
> >
> >>This is...
> >
> >>Utterly insignificant.
> >
> >>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
> >>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
> >>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
> >>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
> >Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
> >the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
> >you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
> We aren't, and I can refute that little lie as well.
Tell you what I'll do some research and get back to you on this.
> Any other gratituous insults you want to toss, Chelian?
I'll see if it is gratuitous first. It is a truth that I didn't have
the time to deal with your... shall we be generous and call it effective
debating methods.
> >It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
> >And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
> >fighters were capable of.
> Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as you have not
> and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
Tell you what... why don't you take a look at the evidence in this
post? Then we'll see where your arguments are. Then we'll see
whether your conclusions are logical.
> But hey, making snide comments sure beats admitting you're wrong, I suppose.
> Carry on then.
Likewise.
> >Secondly, do not
> >>presume to judge Ranma and Senchi (said evil half of Ranma)
> >>as the same. They aren't. Trust me.
> >
> >They were... Senchi was simply much more ruthless than Ranma in his
> >male form. That was what you presented in the original. In which
> >case, the only think keeping the others alive is the fact that Ranma
> >is a nice guy.
> No, that is what people assumed. That doesn't mean it's the truth. There is no
> EVIDENCE to support this, and indeed, several things-like the fact Senchi can
> use the Ra Shin Ginkiri-make it pretty obvious there is more going on than what
> people think.
Whatever it's your story. You can say you intended to do anything with
it.
> >>> Against Ryuu he was
> >>> >using a style specifically -designed- to defeat Ryuu's
> >>> >style. And he STILL almost got himself killed.
> >>> No, the Umisenken and the Yamasenken are not designed to defeat each
> >>> other.
> >>Uh-huh. This explains why the Umisenken has the following
> >>moves.
> >>1) A move designed to catch someone's fanned fingers in your
> >>teeth while you are being pulled down with your arms trapped
> >>in a rope while.
> >I thought that was a Ranma innovation. It certainly wasn't stealing
> >anything.
> It wasn't. It was an Umisenken technique.
Prove it? Venitian blind closing attack (or some such). Or it may be
an Umisenken attack. Please tell me what it is stealing.
> >>2) A move designed to escape the bear hug Ryuu uses, and
> >>little more.
> >
> >Don't you mean any bear hug type move? Or are you claiming that it
> >would be 100% ineffective against other types of bear hugs.
> Ryuu uses a special sort of grip that this was specifically designed to counter.
So you are claiming that it would be 100% ineffective against other types
of bear hugs. Tell you what... why don't you prove it?
> >>3) the Demon Deep Sea Warp itself...
> >
> >Really, I thought that it was an innovation on Ranma's part. After
> >all, I don't remember the Tendo dojo's floor being sucked up into the
> >air or buried under the dirt, which would have happened if Genma had
> >used the move, right? i.e. Ranma made it up.
> Ranma learned it from the SCROLL. This is STATED. Genma also states he KNOWS
> THE MOVE.
Ranma learned one (1) move from the SCROLL. That is in fact STATED. Genma
does in fact state he KNOWS THE MOVE. That is *not* the move I am talking
about. You are talking about the Goshinryuuseifu, I am talking about the
Yashatankaihou in combination with the Daigoshinryuuseifu (which I note that
he uses completely differently from the Goshinryuuseifu).
> For christ's sakes, man, I'm getting very goddamn sick of correcting you on
> easily-proven facts.
Genma says nothing about Ranma's oofuroshiki move. Genma is not there
from the time Ranma pulls out the oofuroshiki till the time that Kumon
Ryuu is unearthed, 28.9.138.1 - 28.9.153.3. Genma has left to distract
Nodoka from 28.9.135.3.
I checked my facts. There they are... tell me where I got them wrong.
And tell me how you are correcting me when I can go get my stuff right
out of the manga.
> >>Aside from the White Snake Venom Reliable Fist and the
> >>Invisbility the Umisenken is designed to be a blow by blow
> >>countermove for the Yamasenken.
> >
> >Yeah right. They are both techniques for stealing. They originally
> >weren't supposed to be martial arts at all. Please remember what the
> Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
Let me give you chapter and verse, in 28.8.125.3, Ryuu asks Genma if he
knows both the Yamasenken and the Umisenken, then he should be able to
raise a dojo once again.
In 28.8.125.4, Genma (the inventor of these techniques by the way, and
the only one whose answers should be taken seriously) says, "Yes, but..."
The fight goes on from there for a while.
After Kumon Ryuu is unearthed, Genma comes up and says (28.10.153.3), "Yes
Yamasenken and Umisenken are powerful techniques, but they are techniques
for living."
On the next page, "Yes, now I have to tell the true marrow of the
Yamasenken and the Umisenken. In one way of looking at it, you see the
opponent as a house and destroy the various parts of the house."
Then from the scroll, 28.10.155.7, Ryuu reads, "Kosodoro" as part of the
scroll from the Umisenken. Kosodoro is "sneak theivery".
There is my proof, specifically supported by the manga. Umisenken is
sneak thievery and the Yamasenken is robbery by assault. If you have
trouble with the words, you can look at the pictures on the next page,
28.10.156.
After that, Genma comments on the Yashatankaihou (which he may have
seen), and says that it stole the power of Kumon's vaccum blades. This
does not mean it was part of the scroll (it cannot have been in the
section that Ranma was given). It wasn't used in the Tendo dojo, because
it leaves a big mess, and the Tendo dojo wasn't a mess after Genma shows
Ranma the Umisenken. So it must be that Ranma came up with it on his
own.
> >conversation they were having after Ryuu left was about, and why
> >Genma gave Nodoka the Umisenken. Umisenken is the superior art for
> >stealing. I'll say it as many times as I need to. Ranma practiced
> Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
Tell you what... I specifically quote the manga above. Why don't you do
me a favor and tell me what manga you are looking at?
> >the parts of Umisenken that he needed to counter Yamasenken and added
> >the counters he had devised to the Yamasenken.
> Incorrect; specifically contradicted by the manga.
You'll have to give page and panel where Genma says that the Umisenken
is a blow by blow counter to the Yamasenken (which is Epsilon's original
assertion).
> >>> Herb is probably the most powerful character in the series apart
> >>> from Saffron, and the closest match to Ranma.
> >>No. That would be Cologne (that is best next to Saffron).
> >>Plently of people are more than a match for Ranma.
> >Sorry, you are probably correct that Cologne is second most powerful
> >after Saffron. I disagree with your second statement.
>
> Ranma isn't in the top ten, as I have shown repeatedly. I suppose it depends on
> how you define "plenty".
Since most of your arguments are as well supported as your statements
about Konatsu being the best martial artist in a hundred years -- Epsilon
says 1000 I think -- I think you need to define plenty as well.
> Herb, however, also isn't in the top five.
Whatever. You have your own rankings in your mind. Ranma is 4th in
mine, after Saffran, Cologne, and Happosai in terms of skill. It
does not mean that he will always win every fight he is in against
those who are below him because skill is not the only consideration
in a fight.
> >>> >And that's the clincher. Ranma probably -couldn't- (and
> >>> >hasn't) win rematches against people he had a des ex
> >>> >machinae finish with.
> >>> Neither can Ryouga. Get it through your skull that this is
> >>> a story. All fights have deus ex machina finishes.
> >>No, not all of them. Some have endings that make sense based
> >>on the skills of both fighters.
> >No, that is *your* estimation of the skills of both fighters. Please
> >learn the difference between an opinion and a fact.
> This from the person who repeatedly quotes "facts" from the manga he made up,
> huh?
Tell you what... why don't you go back and look at the rest of this
posting and tell me what you are talking about when you make up quotes
for this manga?
> >>> Agaianst Ryuu he would be unable to
> >>> >use the Demon Deep Sea Warp because Ryuu wouldn't be stupid
> >>> >enough to through Kijin Raishu Dan's about like crazy.
> >>> What would he do then? Ranma was winning handily until Ryuu
> >>> threw him off guard with the comment about his mother in the
> >>> final fight. Ryuu hadn't laid a glove on Ranma before that,
> >>> where as Ranma had already pulled off at least two blows
> >>> against Ryuu.
> >>Both of which (and here is the clincher) DIDN'T SLOW RYUU
> >>DOWN. Ryuu is the thrid toughest (physically) character in
> >>the manga (and the other two aren't human). He just needs
> >>-time- to catch Ranma.
> >They knocked him to his knees. If your definition of "DIDN'T
> They knocked him flat on his face, if you prefer.
> "I get knocked down, but I get up again..."
> As opposed to Ranma, who was unconscious after one of them from a considerably
> physically weaker opponent.
What makes you think Genma is a considerably physically weaker opponent?
What makes you think Genma used just the one technique against Ranma?
What makes you think Ranma wasn't sucking it up from being beaten by
Ryuu earlier in the day?
What makes you think that Ranma can't get up again? He does at least
twice in the course of this fight.
> >SLOW RYUU DOWN" is struggling to your feet, then you are correct.
> >He got one of his two effective attacks in after that. Ranma
> >survived everything else. Heck, Ryuu's best move was the taunt
> >he used on Ranma.
> Ryuu's fighting ability was unaffected. This is specifically shown.
Really? Why does Ryuu specifically state, 28.6.100.2, "Demonstrating
Umisenken on my body technique by techinque is a bit much." This is
after one offensive move by Ranma.
> Again, you show no signs of even having read the story you're quoting from.
Tell you what since I'm so wrong, you'll have to go back to the volumes,
pages, and panels I quote, and show me how wrong I am. Since I don't seem
to understand a lot of the Japanese you seem to be reading.
[snip Ranma vs. Herb]
I'll have to address the whole Herb vs. Ranma fight in a separate
post.
> >>> Against Tarou he -didn't- win in their
> >>> >second match (at best, it was a double KO).
> >>> Which second fight? The one where Tarou came back with octopus
> >>> tentacles? The one where both Ranma and Tarou were knocked
> >>> unconscious until they hit the bath?
> >>Tarou recovered before then, he was just unable to fly what
> >>with his wings and tentecales stuck inside a concrete tube.
> >How can you tell that Ranma didn't recover? Because he couldn't fly?
> >Actually I'll probably have to go back and look at the manga again.
> >It has been several years since I looked at it.
> Tarou beat Ranma in that fight. He knocks Ranma unconscious and sneers at
> Ranma's falling body, and only then gets knocked unconscious himself.
Okay, he does... the both wake up before they hit bottom. Tarou is
then beaten senseless as he tries to use the Twins water. Tarou couldn't
have beaten Ranma unless he woke up before Ranma did. And that is not
obvious. Once inside the bath, Ranma wins.
> Tarou in any form can beat Ranma in any form in any one on one fight (ie, no
> magic, no friends).
Bullshit. This is as substantiated as your statement above. Since you
are the one in the positive position why don't you provide some proof.
> >>> >The reason the story is called Ranma 1/2 is because Ranma is
> >>> >the star. He is not the star because he is the best, nor is
> >>> >he the best because he is the star. That is FALSE logic. If
> >>> >he were the star because he was the "best martial artist of
> >>> >his generation" you'd think at least half the storylines
> >>> >would focus on his martial prowess. But they don't.
> >>> What do they focus on other than Ranma fighting? Ryouga's
> >>> fighting? Tarou's fighting?
> >
> >>Ukyou fighting.
> >Ukyou gets into all of, what, 4 fights in the series?
> There's still a story focusing on her fighting.
> >>Akane fighting.
> >Akane gets into all of, what, 6 fights in the series?
> There are still stories focusing on her fighting.
Is that the focus of "at least half the storylines"? If you add
Ukyou and Akane together and count the fights they get in, is it
"at least half the storylines". This is Epsilon's standard of
proof. He failed it, and you, with your current examples, failed it.
That is not to say that it cannot be shown, just that your examples
are inadequate and mostly irrelavant.
> >>Try again please.
> >Exactly. Ryouga gets more fights than Akane or Ukyou. Akane
> >gets more "screen time" than anyone but Ranma (I think). Would
> Meaningful screen time, yes, although Ryouga is a close second.
Sure, that's fine. I'm not going to go in and count panels, I'll leave
that to you. You really should substatiate your comment above.
I admit that I am not sure that Akane gets the second most screen time.
> >you care to tell me again where I am wrong in stating that it
> >is a romantic comedy (Ranma and Akane lead characters) and martial
> >arts second (a close second)?
> Because there are more stories where martial arts are important than where
> romance is important.
> But actually, the most accurate description is that Ranma is a drama with
> elements of romance, comedy and martial arts all playing important roles.
Ranma is not a drama, it is a comedy. An occasionally serious comedy,
but a comedy nonetheless. This comedy has romance and martial arts in
it. But since it is to a large degree a story about Ranma and Akane,
it is more a romance than it is a martial arts manga. I can point you
towards martial arts manga, they look very little like Ranma 1/2. You
can take a look at "Grappler Baki", and "Koutarou ni Makero" (I think,
this one is a martial arts comedy).
> >>> Get it through your head that this is a romantic comedy first
> >>> and a martial arts flick second (a very close second). Of
> >>> course most of the story is going to revolve around Ranma and
> >>> Akane. IMO, Ranma can take Ryouga 7-8 falls out of 10 unless
> >>> Ryouga has just learned a special technique.
> >>Your entitled to your opinion. Mine is supported by most of
> >>the fact however.
> >I guess you're not looking at the same facts I am. If you can
> No he isn't. He's looking at the manga...you, I'm not quite sure what you were
> looking at.
Tell you what... when you can provide proof like I provide in this
post, then I'll consider listening to you. In the meantime, when my
information has been of the same quality as yours, you take the time
to insult me, tell me I'm looking at the wrong manga, make unsupported
statetments, make egregious errors about the manga, and claim the
balance of evidence on your side.
Also come back when you learn the difference between fact and opinion.
> >point to inaccuracies in my translation then I am willing to go
> >back and better research my points. If we agree on the "events"
> >but disagree on the interpretation, then it is a matter of
> >opinion by definition.
> Well, most of the "events" you quoted don't technically exist, so...
I documented most of them above, so... since you think my events
don't technically exist, then technically you are looking at a different
manga than I am. I also note the ad homenim attack here as well.
[Ryouga and Tarou are martial arts gods by Epsilon]
> >Sure you didn't... it's just that they can beat Ranma that way, so
> Ryouga can beat Ranma with no help, yes. Tarou could not under those
> circumstances, unless you count the fact he could escape from any normal bonds
> in a matter of seconds.
What normal bonds? Pantyhose? Akane can get out of those. Ropes? Only
if he monsters out.
> >they should be able to beat Saffron that way too. The more outlandish
> >your claims get about Tarou's and Ryouga's strength, the more
> >riduculous they sound when comparing them elsewhere.
> Of course, if I asked you to quote us making those outlandish claims, you
> couldn't. Because this is just as imaginary as your claims of what happened in
> the manga.
> You can't argue logically, so you resort to petty insults. Pathetic.
Blade insults me again.
> >>> >In the Ryuu story it's the Umisenken.
> >>> Of course, Ryuu's knowing the Yamasenken is not an advantage.
> >>> I'll note that the final fight was a fight between the two
> >>> styles not an open martial arts contest. Ranma was pounding
> >>> Ryuu until his mother (or Akane, I can't remember which)
> >>> distracts him. Ryuu beats him the second time just flat out
> >>> because the Yamasenken is a very unconventional art and lets
> >>> Ryuu beat up regular martial artists by suprise. That and
> >>> Ryuu is a very good martial artist.
> >>The difference is that Yamasenken is a powerful art, while
> >>Umisenken is a counter-style to it. It is designed to -beat-
> >>it, that is why it is called "the superior art".
> >Again, they are *not* martial arts. They are ways to steal stuff.
> They are martial arts, and the story says so, as well as their progenitor. they
> are only BASED on thieving techniques.
They are theiving techniques that can be used as martial arts. I
have my proof above, quoted from the progenitor of the techniques.
You have nothing but flat faced assertions.
> >It is the superior art because it doesn't go for confrontation.
> >And would certainly be more useful to a budoka's wife. They are
> >complimentary arts, not contrary arts, you should use one when you
> >can't use the other. These are "arts for living" not arts for
> >fighting.
You don't contradict this, even though it is straight from the manga.
Conveniently ignoring stuff from the manga to try and prove your non-
existent point.
> >>> No he couldn't have. On the other hand Ryouga wasn't winning
> >>> against Tarou by himself either.
> >
> >>No, but Ryouga was able to HURT tarou-Bakemono with his -own
> >>strength-, something Ranma was not able to do.
> >
> >Really? Where? Tarou was still up and running happily after Ryouga
> >was beating on him.
> Indeed he was. But Ryouga's blows actually HURT Tarou, wheras Ranma's didn't.
Since Tarou was still up and running happily after Ryouga was beating
on him, how can you say that Ryouga's blows actually "HURT" Tarou? There
is a contradiction in the statements above, I was not the one to make it.
> >>> and in later Tarou stories he a) doesn't win
> >>> >and b) has Rouge working against Tarou at several points as
> >>> >well, so they don't realy face off.
> >>> That's fine. But you should note that Tarou, other than the
> >>> one time on top of his mountain never comes close to beating
> >>> Ranma in his uncursed form, and I have the explantation
> >>> above.
> >>Unless you count the time he KO'd ranma with two blows?
> >Where was that?
> Volume 32.
For comedy effect, since Akane can hurt Ranma with the same kick. The
dumbell was something, but they weren't fighting. This is Tarou chanelling
righteous feminine scorn, not Tarou beating Ranma in a fight.
> >>> getting killed themselves. They don't leave Ranma at a
> >>> disadvantage by KO'ing him as a female.
> >>Huh? That happened hours before the fight between Ranma and
> >>Herb!
> >Hours!? And it has no effect? Because of this healing factor
> >you keep mentioning?
> Well yes, very obviously so.
Ranma was in poor shape going into the fight and it only gets worse.
I'll have to deal with it more thoroughly in another post.
> >Now, if you can admit that Ryouga can't beat Herb, Tarou (cursed),
> >or anyone more powerful than those two, then we can discuss how
> >Ryouga and Ranma are related powerwise.
> Sure. Ryouga can't. He's only ranked one above Ranma on the overall fighter
> ratings. Herb, and Tarou in all three of his forms are ranked considerably
> higher, among other people.
> Ryouga is slightly better than Ranma, and will beat him the majority of times in
> a fair fight. But Ranma is capable of beating Ryouga fairly.
And I disagree. I'll also point out that you have no proof or evidence
here.
> >One of the points of my paragraph was that Herb could beat up Lime
> >and Mint by himself. Ranma beat Herb. This makes it possible that
> In a serious fight? Possibly, but not likely.
> And Ranma DIDN'T beat Herb. He lost to Herb multiple times, and was by his own
> admission going to die fighting Herb when Ryouga saved him, and later when Mint
> saved him.
Ranma fought Herb three times. He lost twice, once because Herb lucked
out, though Ranma wasn't winning up to the point where Herb got lucky.
> >Ranma could take on Ryouga (who had trouble with Lime) and win most
> >of the time.
> As usual, incorrect evidence.
Sure, and your evidence in your favor is... hey, you know what I don't
see any. One bald assertion counters another.
> >You mean that Ranma will win in my and Rumiko Takahashi's conception
> >of the world, and Ryouga and Tarou will win in yours. If Ranma wins
> >the rematch and the one after that then Ranma has won. If Ranma wins
> Well, Ranma doesn't. Case closed. Admit you're wrong.
After you Blade.
> >the rematch and they don't come to challenge him until they get
> >something new, then that says something again.
> More asinine bullshit. I'm getting sick of this.
> Ryouga (and Tarou) beat Ranma in the manga, which is, for idiots not paying
> attention, Rumiko Takahashi's conception of the series.
Blade, you don't know how sick I am about your statements. Ranma has
repeatedly gone up against an opponent until he won. This is easily shown
from the manga. I'll have to do it in a separate post. Ranma comes back
to win.
I'll also note that you are calling me a fool.
> It is you who is whining that Ranma should have beaten Ryouga, but he didn't.
> Get this through your thick skull, admit you're wrong, and get lost, because
> your abuse is increasingly off-topic, irrelevent and irritating.
You are calling me thick skulled, abusive, off-topic, irrelevant, and
irritating. I'll note that your one statement regarding Ryouga and Ranma
is just sitting there with no proof, no evidence, just assertion.
> Unless, of course, you can come up with actual evidence to support your points,
> which would be a refreshing change from everything you've done so far.
I would like to see your evidence as well.
> >><snip Ranma worhip>
> >Keep in mind that you engage in Ryouga worship as well, and we are
> >well on our way to a compromise.
> <guffaw>
> Oh, that's almost as good as the guy who said Aaron worshipped Ukyou.
Sorry, you are right. Blade and Epsilon engage in Tarou worship, and Ryouga
is his prophet.
> >>> In your opinion, Ranma is a wimp, and cannot win except by
> >>> cheating and attacking people where they aren't good.
> >>No, this is NOT my opinion. There are several people I
> >>believe that Ranma could defeat. In fact, their are quite a
> >>few. This list includes Ukyou, Mousse, Kunou, Mint, Lime,
> >>Koruma, Masara, Mariko, Lukkosai and on and on and on. I
> >>just don't believe that he is infallible and that he will
> >>always win.
> >Good, we can agree on this. It only leaves Tarou (where I conditionally
> >agree with you), Ryouga, Konatsu, Kumon Ryuu, and Herb. Feel free to add
> >names.
> Ranma cannot possibly beat, in a serious and reasonably fair fight:
> Saffron
> Cologne
> Tarou (in any of his three forms)
^^^^^ cursed only
> Rouge-asura
> Happousai
I agree with these, and disagree with the rest of your list.
> He can beat, but would be at a disadvantage against: Ryouga, and Onna-Herb. He
> is about even with Konatsu. He could be beaten by his own female half or
> possibly Mariko Konjou, but would have a considerably advantage.
Kakutou cheerleading is not about who the better martial artist is. I
don't think that Mariko Konjou is better than he is. Note that you are
supposed to attack the opposing team, not the opposing cheerleaders.
I think he would beat Ryouga, but would have trouble with Herb-female.
I think he can take Konatsu out in a straight fight if he goes all out;
Konatsu can gain a considerable advantage by ambushing him.
> >>> He would
> >>> not be able to beat Gosunkugi with all the special techniques
> >>> he is given by the author. Where as, Ryouga, Tarou, etc. never
> >>> need special techniques or suprise, and are perfect honorable
> >>> and forthright in all their intentions all the time, and always
> >>> beat Ranma.
> >
> >>I never claimed this. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
> >No, you didn't claim it this time around. It ususally comes up when
> >either you or Blade brings up the Ranma can only win by cheating. It
> Quote us on it or take that back, liar.
I'll have to go look up in deja-news. Give me a few days or a week or
so.
> >usually involves a large round of explanations as to why Ryouga and
> >Tarou aren't cheating when they use similar tactics to what Ranma
> >sometimes uses.
> Quote us on it or take that back, liar.
I'll have to go look it up in deja-news. Give a few days or a week or
so.
> >>> I'll just say that you are welcome to your opinion, but please
> >>> don't try to pass it off as gospel. I'll just sit here and
> >>> think of you as delusional and fanatic in your protestations.
> >>Okay, you're entitled. But we can keep this at least a
> >>little civil ne?
> >I'll try... please keep in mind that my reactions were colored by
> >the things you said the last time I was debating you (3 or 4 years
> Quote him on it or take that back, liar. Or are you referring to the fact he
> probably destroyed your unsupported arguments then as thoroughly as he's doing
> now?
I see very few unsupported statement by me actually. I have gone back
and supported them again very throughly this time. In fact, some of your
quotes make you a liar.
As for destroying my unsupported statements, I want to hear it from you
when you can do it with same rigor I am using in this post. In the mean
time, why don't you provide chapter and verse for your statements.
> >ago). Also, I would appreciate more examples and quotes. I find
> Give some yourself, hypocrite.
I do here.
> >it really irritating to debate with someone who mentions something
> >vaguely when I try to provide more concrete examples (it means they
> Yes, you're very good at making up concrete examples. A pity they bear no
> resemblence to what actually happened in the manga.
Blade insults me again.
> >have an infinite repetory of comebacks, very few of which are
> >actually substantiated).
>
> You disgust me, Chelian. Go reread the manga and get a goddamn attitude
> adjustment before you reply; not that you will, of course: it'll probably be yet
> another "Blade's picking on me so I refuse to discuss it with him" reply,
> ignoring the fact that you started all the insults and that I have provided, and
> can provide, plenty of concrete evidence to debunk everything you've said.
Tell you what, why don't you let Epsilon defend himself and go take a time
out in some corner? While there you can reread the manga and get your own
attitude adjustment. I've put a lot of time this time into debunking your
arguments, time I didn't have four years ago.
> Blade
Anand Chelian
>In article <7qp339$j...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu says...
>>In article <379cbf7e...@news.shoalhaven.net.au>,
>>Talen the First <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>>>What can I say?
>>
>>>I've heard good things of this Blade character - being a Tarou fan and
>>>all, after all, - but my first stint here on RAAF and bam, here he is
>>>nailing down logical arguments. Weeell done.
>>
>>I'll just point out that logical arguments include things like:
>>1) knowing the difference between fact and opinion
>>2) presenting evidence
>>3) backing your argument up
>>and
>>4) actually using logic.
>>
>>If you think that Blade does all four then congratulations. If not then
>>you might want to reconsider your statement.
>
>It's plain fact that I do all four. If you think otherwise, I suggest you come
>up with evidence to prove it.
>Real evidence, that is, not yet more examples you made up.
Read my reply to your 1400 line message.
>>I've presented more evidence, and been more specific about my evidence
>>than Blade or Epsilon has.
>I've presented actual evidence from the manga, and pointed out half a dozen
>things you "presented" that never occured at all.
Likewise.
>And I've presented more evidence than you on a post by post basis. Also, unlike
>you, I don't insult people because I'm losing a debate.
Of course, you would never descend to insulting people.
>>Not really... the only person I found less personable was Kuno Christoffel,
>>and I at least respected her arguments.
>Ah yes, "poor me, picked on by Blade".
No, I was saying that I don't respect you.
>If you can't take the heat, Chelian, don't start fires. You made numerous
>insulting and derogatory comments that were utterly irrelevent to the debate,
>and made several claims that were outright lies.
I have made three posts to this thread. Numbers 4 and 5 are coming out
soon.
>You have no moral superiority, or even equality, in this case, and you know it.
>Crawl back under whatever rock you came from until you're ready to talk like a
>reasonable adult.
Hey, I'm doing this now because I'm picking up a debate from four years
ago. Nice to see that you don't insult anyone.
Anand Chelian
Talen <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>Just why is it that I make a note about what I can perceive from a
>limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
>for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
>debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
>*just* a cartoon.
It's the debate that I'm concerned over. Not the cartoon. I want
certain things from the people I debate, and logical argument is
one of them. I offered a definition of logical argument in response
to your mentioning it. I would suggest that everyone take a good
look at the arguments offered, and not just support the one who yells
the loudest and longest.
I still suggest that you obtain your own opinions by reading the
manga and the translations. A person going from tertiary sources with
no real knowledge of the subject is in a poor position to determine
the validity of any argument.
>I have 10 to 1 odds that I get a 'I am not, Blade sucks and so do you
>for agreeing with him' followup. Any takers?
Sure, I'll take it up.
I apologize if you feel that I have insulted you. But I will stick to
my statement that you should read the manga for yourself before deciding
who is more correct.
I shall attempt to direct my displeasure against Blade and Epsilon more
specifically in the future. I hope you continue to enjoy Ranma, anime,
and the USENET. Best wishes.
Talen
wrote:
>In article <379ce087...@news.shoalhaven.net.au>,
>Talen <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>>Just why is it that I make a note about what I can perceive from a
>>limited perspective this Chelian fellow feels a need to beat me down
>>for it, then insults someone else for no apparent reason? It's just a
>>debate, for god's sake; don't get so damn uptight over what is still
>>*just* a cartoon.
>
>It's the debate that I'm concerned over. Not the cartoon. I want
>certain things from the people I debate, and logical argument is
>one of them. I offered a definition of logical argument in response
>to your mentioning it. I would suggest that everyone take a good
>look at the arguments offered, and not just support the one who yells
>the loudest and longest.
Such as conceding when one is wrong? </sarcasm free>
>I still suggest that you obtain your own opinions by reading the
>manga and the translations. A person going from tertiary sources with
>no real knowledge of the subject is in a poor position to determine
>the validity of any argument.
If I did say any side in that was actually *right*, well, whoops. I
don't recall doing so. I did, however, note that Blade seemed to
tackle what seemed to be a childish insulting opinion with maturity
and research. He might be talking out of his arse for all *I* know.
>>I have 10 to 1 odds that I get a 'I am not, Blade sucks and so do you
>>for agreeing with him' followup. Any takers?
>
>Sure, I'll take it up.
*forks out unwillingly*
>I apologize if you feel that I have insulted you. But I will stick to
>my statement that you should read the manga for yourself before deciding
>who is more correct.
So do I.
>I shall attempt to direct my displeasure against Blade and Epsilon more
>specifically in the future. I hope you continue to enjoy Ranma, anime,
>and the USENET. Best wishes.
*shrug* Funky by me
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian wrote:
> I still suggest that you obtain your own opinions by reading the
> manga and the translations. A person going from tertiary sources with
> no real knowledge of the subject is in a poor position to determine
> the validity of any argument.
>
I thought we called them juries. :)
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian
They often do. Though the law enforcement does try to bring in first
and second hand reports (as opposed to tertiary and worse). And often
they do try to educate the jury about the types and limitations of
evidence. Still, a great obsession that historians have is to try to
get as close the the original documents as possible.
But given that a survey (I think it was reported in the LA Times) said
that when a person is told that there is a .01% chance of someone having
done something or being someone, they are more likely to believe that than
if they are told that there is a 1 in 10,000 chance of the same thing, I
am sure there are still problems with the jury system.
The jury system is to law as democracy is to government. It can be pretty
bad, it's just that most of the others are worse. Both can be improved by
an educated and participating public. Similarly with this Ranma debate.
> Bob Macfie
Bryan McNerney
to compare those factors as shown in any given fight.
Anand Chelian
I have here stuff copied from a primary source (making this post a
secondary source) that gives the outcomes of some of the fights Blade
uses as examples. It is a complete listing of what was in that section
of the Ranma 1/2 Memorial Art Book written by Rumiko Takahashi, so it
should be a listing of all the important fights. The only thing that
I have added is the Kakutou Cheerleading battle which I found on page
105.
From the Ranma 1/2 Memorial Art Book pages 94-99
Ranma:
Style: Musabetsukakutouryuu Saotome Ryuu
Most powerful move: Hiryuushotenha
Weankess: Cat
Ranma vs. Kunou Tatewaki:
Kunou Tatewaki:
Style: Kunou ryuu kenjitsu
Most powerful move: machine gun strike
Weaknesses: Akane and Ranma
Greeting 1 point fight, called because of rain.
Kenjitsu vs. Kenpou, Ranma wins by kicking pressure points.
Lost memory match (Watermelon), Ranma wins by causing
Tatewaki to self-eliminate.
Tatewaki and phoenix (parent-child) match, Ranma loses the
one point fight.
Ranma vs. Ryouga:
Hibiki Ryouga:
Style: Self styled
Most powerful move: Shishihoukoudan and Bakusaitenketsu
Weakness: Extremely poor sense of direction
1st announced fight, school grounds KO fight, no winner,
fight called on account of Akane.
2nd announced fight, ice match, no winner, double ring out.
3rd announced fight, bakusaitenketsu, Ranma wins by KO.
Ranma vs. P-chan, legendary happy face (don't feel like
translating, but the invincibility drawing), P-chan wins.
4th announced fight, shishihoukoudan, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Mousse:
Mousse:
Style: Swan style kung fu
Most powerful move: Inchuachuan, Dachou kick
Weakness: Nearsighted
Man to man, one match fight, Ranma wins by KO.
Man to man, one match fight, return, Ranma wins by TKO.
If you cry you lose fight, Mousse wins by having Ranma bow
to him.
Ranma vs. Happosai:
Happosai:
Style: Founding style of Musabetsukakutouryuu
Most powerful move: Happodaikarin
Weakness: Needs to touch sexually
Ranma vs. Happosai in the Tendo tea room, Happosai wins.
Ranma vs. Happosai, Happosai relearns Happodaikarin, Ranma
wins by causing Happosai to "self-destruct".
Ranma vs. Happosai, Hiryuushotenha match, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou:
PantsutoTarou:
Style: Straight power
Most powerful move: Octopus leg attack
Weakness: If he doesn't transform, he's weak
Ranma, Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse vs. PantstoTarou, won by
Ranma's Pantyhose falling star kick.
Second match, Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou, octopus legs story,
Ranma wins by KO.
Third match, Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou vs. Ashura, triangle
match, no winner, triple KO.
Ranma vs. Herb:
Herb:
Style: Ki attacks
Most powerful moves: Ryuuseihishou, HitouRyouzanha
Weakness: Breasts
Nekohanten match, Ranma loses by Ryuuseihishou.
Onsen match, no winner, Herb withdraws.
Houraisan death match, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Yamata no Orochi
Yamata no Orochi:
Style: Natural abilities
Most powerful moves: None
Weakness: Whistle made from the horn of a one-horned
mongoose
Ranma team vs. Yamata no Orochi, Ranma team wins by Akane's
whistle.
Ranma vs. Kumon Ryuu:
Kumon Ryuu:
Style: Saotome Ryuu Yamasenken (Kumon Ryuu)
Most powerful moves: Kijinraishuudan, Moukokaimonha
Weakness: Bad at lying
Round 1, indecisive.
Round 2, Kumon Ryuu wins with spearfist strike.
Round 3, Ranma wins using Yashatankaihou.
Ranma vs. Saffran:
Saffran:
Style: Fire attacks
Most powerful moves: Tenkashunmetsukoukyuudan,
Kouteikaenyoku
Weakness: Weak against being hit
Birdman vs. Pervert, three point fight, first fight in the
onsen, Ranma wins.
Second fight, time runs out, no winner, tie.
Third fight, Ranma wins with Hiryuuhyoutoppa.
Ranma vs. Akane:
Akane:
Style: Musabetsukakutouryuu Tendo dojo
Special moves: bitan, dotsuki (slap and knock over the
head)
Weakness: Kanazuchi, lousy cook
Arm wrestling match, Gomokusoba story, Akane wins.
Dougi story, Akane wins.
Other fights:
Uncounted fights:
Ranma vs. Akane, one point fight, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Cologne, Ranma wins using the Neko-ken.
Ranma vs. dojo yaburi, Ranma wins by KO.
Ranma vs. principal, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Genma, Genma wins using the jigoku no yurikago.
Ranma vs. Gosunkugi, Gosunkugi in armor, Ranma wins by
standing after the explosion.
Ranma vs. Konatsu Kenzan, double KO.
Ranma vs. Shampoo in Saffran story, Ranma wins by egging
Shampoo.
Sports:
Ranma vs. Kunou Kodachi, Ranma wins by ring out.
Ranma and Ryouga vs. Golden Pair, Ranma and Ryouga win.
Ranma vs. Akane vs. Shampoo, Kakutou delivery, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Akane, gomokusoba story, Ranma wins by ring out.
Onsen race, Ukyou and Ryouga win.
Ranma vs. Picolet, Ranma wins.
Ranma and Hinako vs. principal, Ranma and Hinako win.
Ranma and Akane vs. Mariko and Kunou, Ranma and Akane win.
Something from the past:
Ranma vs. Shampoo, Shampoo's first visit to the Tendo dojo,
Ranma wins by Shampoo knocking herself out.
Ranma vs. Ukyou, inconclusive.
Ranma vs. King, Ranma wins by cheating.
Ranma vs. Hinako, Ranma wins by hitting the points.
Ranma and Shampoo vs. Pink and Link, fight could not be
carried to conclusion.
Ranma vs. Happosai and Rakkosai, Ranma wins.
Monster banishment:
Ranma vs. Sanae-monkey, indecisive.
Ranma vs. Bakeneko (Maomoorin), Ranma wins using nekoken.
Ranma vs. Bakeneko, Ranma wins by kissing Shampoo.
Ranma vs. Cursed swimsuit, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. Oni, Ranma wins by sealing it away.
Ranma vs. Tatewaki in a cherry tree, Ranma wins.
Ranma vs. stone statue, Ranma wins when Shampoo returns
favor.
Counted up:
Win Lose Tie Indecisive Not Finished
Kunou 1 1 1
Ryouga 2 1 2
Mousse 2 1
Happosai 3
Pantsuto 2 1
Herb 1 1 1
Yamata 1
Kumon 1 1 1
Saffran 2 1
Akane 2
Not counted 6 1 1
Sports 6 1
Other 4 1 1
Monster 6 1
37 9 3 3 5
57 total fights, 65% wins, 16% loses, and you can calculate
the rest.
This is a separate piece of my extended refutation of Blade's
position. It is just something that I would like considered before
people fall over themselves praising Blade when he claims someone
wins by being more skilled. I shall expand upon it if Blade ever
responds to these posts.
I would like to propose the following factors as influences
on a fight divided into three broad categories:
A) Physical:
1) Strength
2) Size
3) Toughness
5) Agility
4) Speed
5) Exhaustion
7) Weapons/Tools
6) Other Physical abilities (Flight, Fire balls, etc.)
B) Mental:
1) Skill
2) Intelligence
3) Tiredness
4) Suprise
5) Strategic Sense
6) Tactical Sense
7) Adaptability
8) Emotional State
9) Self Control
10) Determination
C) External
1) Terrain
2) Weather
3) Time of Day
4) Elevation (affected by Flight among other things)
5) Strategic Offensive/Defensive (not always under the
control of the characters)
6) Luck
7) Allies
Please note that Skill is only one of the factors in a
fight. Very often, depending on circumstances, skill
will not be the deciding factor.
Hunter Kid
>Ranma vs. Ryouga:
>Hibiki Ryouga:
> Style: Self styled
I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
tiger-style kung fu as well.
> Most powerful move: Shishihoukoudan and Bakusaitenketsu
?
The bakusai tenketsu isn't a powerful move (unless his opponent was,
say, made of stone).
> Weakness: Extremely poor sense of direction
That is not a weakness in a fight. In a fight, his weakness is his
gullibility and his (comparative) lack of speed.
>1st announced fight, school grounds KO fight, no winner,
> fight called on account of Akane.
Fair enough.
>2nd announced fight, ice match, no winner, double ring out.
'Double ring out'? I confess you confuse me. Seems to me Ryouga won
two or three times, since the stakes, after all, were 'whoever falls
into the water first loses.'
But I don't recall anyone ever leaving the ring, unless you're talking
about the anime, in which case this discussion is pointless because
the anime's total lack of consistancy.
>3rd announced fight, bakusaitenketsu, Ranma wins by KO.
I view this as two fights, actually; Ranma forfeited the initial
battle by running away. He won the second battle in the forest.
>Ranma vs. P-chan, legendary happy face (don't feel like
> translating, but the invincibility drawing), P-chan wins.
I don't think this really counts. ;p
>4th announced fight, shishihoukoudan, Ranma wins.
If you mean just the match at the end, no, Ryouga won that. Ranma was
knocked out, remember? Akane distracting everyone kept this from
being noticed, but Ranma _was_ knocked out. If you mean any of the
others in this story, well, Ryouga won all those, too.
>Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou:
>PantsutoTarou:
> Style: Straight power
Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
> Most powerful move: Octopus leg attack
> Weakness: If he doesn't transform, he's weak
Weak_er_ that his monster form, anyway. He's still powerful enough to
beat either Ranma or Ryouga in a one-on-one match in his human form.
>Ranma, Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse vs. PantstoTarou, won by
> Ranma's Pantyhose falling star kick.
This is true; however, I don't think this can be called a 'Ranma v.
Tarou' fight, since Ranma had _lots_ of help.
>Second match, Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou, octopus legs story,
> Ranma wins by KO.
No, Tarou won. Fairly clearly, actually; he bashed him with the smoke
stack, had time to laugh at him, then knocked himself out.
>Ranma vs. Herb:
>Herb:
> Style: Ki attacks
> Most powerful moves: Ryuuseihishou, HitouRyouzanha
> Weakness: Breasts
Also, his arrogance.
>Nekohanten match, Ranma loses by Ryuuseihishou.
>Onsen match, no winner, Herb withdraws.
>Houraisan death match, Ranma wins.
Again, this cannot properly be called a 'Ranma v. Herb' match, because
Ranma had help. Lots of it. As in, he would clearly have died
without help.
>Ranma vs. Kumon Ryuu:
>Kumon Ryuu:
> Style: Saotome Ryuu Yamasenken (Kumon Ryuu)
> Most powerful moves: Kijinraishuudan, Moukokaimonha
> Weakness: Bad at lying
This is not a combat weakness. His lack of speed and versatility is.
>Round 1, indecisive.
Round 1 is not indecisive. As Genma notes, Ranma was about to have
his heart ripped out when he saved him.
>Ranma vs. Konatsu Kenzan, double KO.
Just a note here - I don't think 'Kenzan' is actually part of
Konatsu's name. It's a title or something.
>This is a separate piece of my extended refutation of Blade's
>position. It is just something that I would like considered before
>people fall over themselves praising Blade when he claims someone
>wins by being more skilled. I shall expand upon it if Blade ever
>responds to these posts.
Well, it's admirable that you've taken the time to type up something
like this. However, a _lot_ of your details are incorrect; this not
being my debate, I haven't taken the time to refute everything that's
wrong with your post.
Blade's been doing this for...what, five years? We debated together
for a time on the Ranma ML, and while I _do_ feel there's some things
Blade is incorrect about (Ryouga v. Lime, Ryouga and Ukyou, Mint's
skill, and so on), there is something to be said for a guy who can
pull up any given manga event and document it in perfect detail
without actually looking at the manga.
Bottom line is that you need to look harder at and give a more honest,
in-depth analysis of the manga before anyone's going to take this
stuff seriously. (Correct the blatant errors first, such as saying
that Tarou is 'weak,' or that Ranma the fights in volumes 20 and 32.
Even a cursory glance reveals that these are incorrect.)
Also, BTW, you might want to drop the anime-only examples. They only
serve to discredit you.
Hunter Kid
Should have responded to this in my previous post.
>I would like to propose the following factors as influences
>on a fight divided into three broad categories:
Okay, first of all, quantifying fighting ability is really hard to do.
Just comparing fighters is fairly easy. Doing a 'ratings chart' like
this based on a series like Ranma 1/2 is not (I tried to make one
once, it really sucked); for most characters, we have insufficient
data.
Second, how are these even ranked? Numerically? What are the numbers
based on? What are they relative to? Who serves as the 'base'? Why?
How can you possible hope to draw out a number for categories like
this? Who has the final say on the numbers? Etc.
If it's _not_ numerical, it's too vague to be useful, IMO. And if
it's just overall comparative, then the categories shouldn't be there
and the chart would look more like Blade's.
>A) Physical:
> 1) Strength
> 2) Size
> 3) Toughness
> 5) Agility
> 4) Speed
> 5) Exhaustion
> 7) Weapons/Tools
> 6) Other Physical abilities (Flight, Fire balls, etc.)
Okay, problem #1: the categories overlap. With strength generally
comes toughness and good stamina. People who are agile also tend to
be fast. People who are big tend to be strong. Weapons/tools are
subcategories, not categories, and they combine a _lot_ of different
categories, and a lot of the categories mean different things when
applied to a weapon.
Problem #2: YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO RANK THESE. Trust me.
I've tried. If you _really_ studied the manga, you could probably get
numeric rankings for Ranma. Maybe Ryouga. I really doubt you could
for anyone else.
>B) Mental:
> 1) Skill
> 2) Intelligence
> 3) Tiredness
> 4) Suprise
> 5) Strategic Sense
> 6) Tactical Sense
> 7) Adaptability
> 8) Emotional State
> 9) Self Control
> 10) Determination
Problem #3: some of these categories are too vague or just stupid.
'Skill'? Now there's just about the vaguest category I can imagine.
What is 'tiredness'? 'Surprise' doesn't make any sense. And problem
#1 is even more prominent here. Most of these categories
interconnect.
Anand Chelian
>Should have responded to this in my previous post.
I take it you have no arugments with my translation of the Ranma 1/2
Memorial Art Book? You should be able to buy it at your local
Kinokuniya or Asahiya. You should even be able to order it over the
internet.
>>I would like to propose the following factors as influences
>>on a fight divided into three broad categories:
>Okay, first of all, quantifying fighting ability is really hard to do.
I do not disagree with this.
>Just comparing fighters is fairly easy. Doing a 'ratings chart' like
>this based on a series like Ranma 1/2 is not (I tried to make one
>once, it really sucked); for most characters, we have insufficient
>data.
Correct. Do you now see why Blade's rankings are mostly useless? Given
all the factors I list, it is possible to have loops in the chart of who
is more powerful. i.e. A can defeat B, B can defeat C, but C can defeat
A.
>Second, how are these even ranked? Numerically? What are the numbers
>based on? What are they relative to? Who serves as the 'base'? Why?
>How can you possible hope to draw out a number for categories like
>this? Who has the final say on the numbers? Etc.
They are not ranked. You may arrange them in alphabetical order if you
wish. Or by the length of the words, or by any other metric you see
fit to use. There is no base. This is not specific to Ranma. This is
not an exhaustive list. This may be too exhaustive for some fights.
There are no numbers.
>If it's _not_ numerical, it's too vague to be useful, IMO. And if
>it's just overall comparative, then the categories shouldn't be there
>and the chart would look more like Blade's.
I have to ask how you assign a number to something like morale or
willpower. These are not specific to an RPG, or anything quite so
limited. The US military uses some of these measures to gauge fighting
strength. The usually come up with force multipliers, and say that the
average US fighting force is 3 or more times effective than it's
equivalent number of usual opposition. This, however, is just a guess.
It isn't even quantifiable with body bags.
>>A) Physical:
>> 1) Strength
>> 2) Size
>> 3) Toughness
>> 5) Agility
>> 4) Speed
>> 5) Exhaustion
>> 7) Weapons/Tools
>> 6) Other Physical abilities (Flight, Fire balls, etc.)
>Okay, problem #1: the categories overlap. With strength generally
>comes toughness and good stamina. People who are agile also tend to
>be fast. People who are big tend to be strong. Weapons/tools are
>subcategories, not categories, and they combine a _lot_ of different
>categories, and a lot of the categories mean different things when
>applied to a weapon.
Again, these are not meant to be exhaustive. It is quite possible to
be very flexible but slow. A lot of really cut people who can bench
much more than I can, cannot run as long as I can. Yes the categories
overlap. If you have a more definitive list, and one that has no
overlap, then I suggest you present it.
>Problem #2: YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO RANK THESE. Trust me.
>I've tried. If you _really_ studied the manga, you could probably get
>numeric rankings for Ranma. Maybe Ryouga. I really doubt you could
>for anyone else.
That's the entire point. A lot of the time you cannot rank these. This
is why statements like Blade's where he makes definite statements are so
very wrong.
>>B) Mental:
>> 1) Skill
>> 2) Intelligence
>> 3) Tiredness
>> 4) Suprise
>> 5) Strategic Sense
>> 6) Tactical Sense
>> 7) Adaptability
>> 8) Emotional State
>> 9) Self Control
>> 10) Determination
>Problem #3: some of these categories are too vague or just stupid.
>'Skill'? Now there's just about the vaguest category I can imagine.
>What is 'tiredness'? 'Surprise' doesn't make any sense. And problem
>#1 is even more prominent here. Most of these categories
>interconnect.
Mental exhaustion. How coherent are you after staying up all night?
How capable are you of reacting quickly and effectively? How do you
feel after you've taken the SAT or GRE or MCAT or other large test?
Are you ready for a game of chess right after finals?
Suprise is a category, you can find it when people advocate ambush or
stealth. If you are suprised, you generally don't react very well in
the beginning. Suprise is also a major goal of military strategy,
which is why you get the US military doing things like the Hail Mary
move in Desert Storm.
If you have a problem with these categories, I suggest you take up
tactical sense with Clausewitz, it was called coup d'oeil back then.
As for suprise, self control, determination, you can take those up
with Sun Tzu.
Emotional state should speak for itself in a manga with the
Shishihoukoudan. If you've done any martial arts or even watched
something like the Karate Kid, you should have some idea about the
use of self control (it is called discipline and morale in Clausewitz,
and Sun Tzu mentions it too).
You may chose to disbelieve that adaptability, skill, intelligence, and
strategic sense (wisdom might be another word for it) have anything to
do with fights. I would like to see you show me why they are
unimportant.
Mental states are *very* hard to define, determine, or quantify, which
is why psychology is still considered a soft science. It doesn't mean
that they don't exist.
>George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
Blade
of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
manga counts.
I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
the reasons above.
Blade
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> Blade keeps claiming that he knows the outcomes of fights in the > manga. I have here stuff copied from a primary source (making this
> post a secondary source) that gives the outcomes of some of the fights
> Blade uses as examples. It is a complete listing of what was in that
> section of the Ranma 1/2 Memorial Art Book written by Rumiko
> Takahashi, so it should be a listing of all the important fights.
Well, I don't know about "should be". Though I do know little about the
series that haven't come out in English, I'd have to point out that this
list doesn't even come close to being complete for everything up to and
including the story against Picolet.
Where shall I begin?
> Ranma vs. Kunou Tatewaki:
> Kunou Tatewaki:
> Style: Kunou ryuu kenjitsu
> Most powerful move: machine gun strike
> Weaknesses: Akane and Ranma
> Greeting 1 point fight, called because of rain.
> Kenjitsu vs. Kenpou, Ranma wins by kicking pressure points.
We can't count the pounding Kuno and Ryoga (perhaps even Gosunkugi)
gave Ranma after the incident with the kiss delivered in the nekoken
story, because it wasn't Ranma vs. a single opponent.
>
> Ranma vs. Ryouga:
> 1st announced fight, school grounds KO fight, no winner,
> fight called on account of Akane.
> 2nd announced fight, ice match, no winner, double ring out.
You've ignored the fight that reveals Ryoga's curse, which is also an
inconclusive one. Maybe it's not important enough to include, but if the
first match against Kuno is included, I'd argue that this one is no less
valid.
As for the ice match, I may be wrong, but I thought that Ryoga's terms
in that one were that the first to fall lost - and Ranma DID fall. The
fight that came after Ranma got back up was a draw, however, as they had
to abandon it to save Akane, after which, neither seemed to be in any
condition to continue.
> 3rd announced fight, bakusaitenketsu, Ranma wins by KO.
I'd agree with Mr. Masologites (Hunter-Kid) that - TECHNICALLY - Ryoga
did win the fight when Ranma ran off. Of course, the fact that Ryoga did
pursue him to continue the fight probably overrides this technicality.
Now if Ryoga had stayed and declared himself the winner because Ranma
had fled (it is a perfectly valid claim), there would have been no way
to refute this claim. But Ryoga didn't make it - so I feel this is your
point, Mr. Chelian. But it may be a bit shaky.
> Ranma vs. P-chan, legendary happy face (don't feel like
> translating, but the invincibility drawing), P-chan wins.
Of course, if you allow that, you have to allow all of Ryoga's prior
victories that were made possible in part by the mark. Even if you say
that the only reason that Ryoga's victory as P-chan counts for more is
that he knocks Ranma "out of the ring" (straight through the roof), do
we count the time he plows Ranma into the roof (Vol. 14, pg. 119? And I
would argue that he also won by pinning him to the floor on 122 and 123
(true, they might not have been the most solid pins, but Ranma didn't
look like he'd be getting out of them without Ryoga's cooperation) or by
knocking him flat on page 111. Ranma was continuing to lie there as his
opponent packed up to leave in that case, after all - I'd say that's
pretty conclusive.
Of course, the mark may have been considered an unfair advantage, so it
might not be best to count any such fights at all. But since you did, I
would have to argue that this gives Ryoga no less than FIVE victories
against Ranma.
And don't forget that Ranma's first Hiryu Shoten-ha was used to beat
Ryoga. Of course, Ryoga did pound on him afterwards, but the latter can
hardly be counted as a fair fight (but see the comments after Saffron's
fight fight with Ranma).
>
> Ranma vs. Mousse:
> Man to man, one match fight, Ranma wins by KO.
> Man to man, one match fight, return, Ranma wins by TKO.
We'd probably also have to count him (and Kuno and the principal) as
one of the losers in the Hiryu Shoten-ha fight against Happosai.
> Ranma vs. Happosai:
> Ranma vs. Happosai in the Tendo tea room, Happosai wins.
What about the challenge to wear the bra in front of the school, which
Happy forfeited to chase the joggers? Or the incident where he disguised
himself as P-chan to sleep with Akane (defeating both Ranma and Ryoga, I
should add). Or the bath house incident (I still don't remember how that
one went, in the end)?
> Ranma vs. Happosai, Happosai relearns Happodaikarin, Ranma wins by
> causing Happosai to "self-destruct".
> Ranma vs. Happosai, Hiryuushotenha match, Ranma wins.
But wouldn't you consider Happosai to have won the initial match that
started this whole thing, by having crippled Ranma in the first place?
> Ranma vs. Saffran:
> Saffran:
> Birdman vs. Pervert, three point fight, first fight in the onsen,
> Ranma wins.
You mean the one in which Saffron is still in the form of a child, not
yet at his full power. I'll allow that - but technically that would mean
that all of Ryoga's victories while wearing the abdominal mark should be
counted. Then there's the incident with Kuno's wish-granting sword, as
well as the time that Ryoga knocked him into orbit after Happosai left
him weak, but we shouldn't count those latter two (not quite in the same
league of fairness, after all).
> Second fight, time runs out, no winner, tie.
Hmm? "Time runs out"? I admit that my Japanese is, for all intents and
purposes, non-existent, but I don't see anything that looked like it was
on a timer. I do see the match where Ranma survived only because Akane
was transformed into miniature form to prevent Ranma's destruction. Is
that what you're talking about. Because if so, that isn't even close to
a tie. Judges would clearly have given that one to Saffron. At best, it
is an uncompleted fight, due to interference - and it's still conclusive
in appearance.
> Third fight, Ranma wins with Hiryuuhyoutoppa.
>
True. He only survived long enough to do that because of Akane, but it
does not invalidate the result in this case.
I should point out that you neglected to mention the Ranma vs. - uh,
what's that flying lady's name again - fights. Most are very confusing,
as they seem to be mass combats for the most part, but it's pretty clear
that Ranma did win in single combat against her on page 111 of Vol. 37.
> Ranma vs. Akane:
> Arm wrestling match, Gomokusoba story, Akane wins.
> Other fights:
> Uncounted fights:
> Ranma vs. Akane, one point fight, Ranma wins.
> Ranma vs. Cologne, Ranma wins using the Neko-ken.
Well, not quite. Cologne does withdraw, but it's hard to say if that
was done out of respect for the sacrifice that would have been required
to master the nekoken or because she was beaten. After all, he only took
out the shark! It may technically be counted as a victory, but whether
or not it means she was defeated is another matter entirely.
And let's not forget that she did best him several times at the Neko-
hanten - but I'll call that one victory.
> Ranma vs. dojo yaburi, Ranma wins by KO.
> Ranma vs. principal, Ranma wins.
Was that an actual fight?
> Ranma vs. Shampoo in Saffran story, Ranma wins by egging
> Shampoo.
>
Though there was at least one match prior to that that was inconclusive
before it was interupted by other matters - and she managed to get Genma
out of the bargain, so that might be counted as a technical victory of
sorts (she came out ahead of her opponents on that one, that much I'm
certain of).
And considering some of the incidents you have included, I would argue
that all those times that Shampoo incapacitates Ranma by assuming cat
form (including the one time she forced him to accept the bell in the
bakeneko story) count as victories of Shampoo over Ranma.
> Sports:
> Ranma vs. Kunou Kodachi, Ranma wins by ring out.
> Ranma and Ryouga vs. Golden Pair, Ranma and Ryouga win.
In that storyline, you have failed to count Ranma vs. the dance of
death (Ranma won) and Akane and Ranma vs. Golden Pair (inconlusive, even
with Ranma's condition after striking the wall - and the fact that they
should have forfeited the match by allowing for Ryoga's substitution in
mid-match).
> Ranma vs. Akane vs. Shampoo, Kakutou delivery, Ranma wins.
Sure - but only after Shampoo had eliminated Akane - and vice versa. It
still counts, but I would have liked to have seen the result if Shampoo
had not been a factor.
> Ranma vs. Akane, gomokusoba story, Ranma wins by ring out.
That one was so chaotic I don't know how you can define a victory on
those terms, to be honest.
> Onsen race, Ukyou and Ryouga win.
> Ranma vs. Picolet, Ranma wins.
But he had to lose to get into this mess in the first place, I should
add. And he's getting his butt handed to him for several weeks, it would
seem, while he's trying to learn how to win.
> Something from the past:
> Ranma vs. Shampoo, Shampoo's first visit to the Tendo dojo,
> Ranma wins by Shampoo knocking herself out.
True, although Ranma himself tries to deny that that counts as a win.
And you neglected to mention the knock-down victory he achieved against
her in the Amazon village - the one that started the problem.
> Ranma vs. Ukyou, inconclusive.
I think the judges would have given this one to Ranma (based on out of
the ring rules alone - but the points would have favoured the boy wonder
as well).
> Ranma vs. King, Ranma wins by cheating.
You're counting that one as a FIGHT? Well, okay, but you should also be
forced to count the original match that lost the dojo back in childhood.
And you might want to count the "strip poker" variation played between
him, Akane, and Ukyo on page 75 of Vol. 15. (And, is it just me, or was
that out of character for at least ONE of the participants - I mean,
Ranma may take any sort of challenge, but who here really thinks Akane
would have agreed to this sort of thing? Even if Ukyo hadn't been
present?)
Not to mention the loss of the hand that caused Soun to hurl him clear
of the dojo on page 78.
>
> Monster banishment:
> Ranma vs. Sanae-monkey, indecisive.
> Ranma vs. Bakeneko (Maomoorin), Ranma wins using nekoken.
> Ranma vs. Bakeneko, Ranma wins by kissing Shampoo.
What? Does that happen in a later appearance than in Vol. 14, because I
don't see that incident there. Incidentally, I'd count Ranma's collapse
at the first appearance of the bakeneko as a loss - but that is just one
more technicality, as the creature may very well have been begging for
its life. Then again, it is the same realm as Ranma's initial victory
over Shampoo while he was male - unintentional, but still a win.
> 57 total fights, 65% wins, 16% loses, and you can calculate
> the rest.
>
> This is a separate piece of my extended refutation of Blade's
> position. It is just something that I would like considered before
> people fall over themselves praising Blade when he claims someone
> wins by being more skilled. I shall expand upon it if Blade ever
> responds to these posts.
Mr. Chelian, while I would say that this has been an impressive piece
of work, it is by no means valid as a refutation. Even with my own very
limited knowledge of the series, I have shown that you have missed quite
a few incidents. It is logical to assume that you have not included a
complete list of all contests from the rest of the series either.
And some of your conclusions are either shaky or in contests that are
of questionable relevance to the question of the quality of the fighter.
I mean, come on, card games?
Now I'm not saying that you can't refute Blade's contention that Ranma
is a lesser martial artist than Ryoga (or several others), just that
this presentation comes far from doing so. It does challenge the claim,
and I will admit that Blade may have to refute your own posts the next
time he comes this way. But you are a long way from your objective yet.
But I do appreciate the efforts you have gone to thus far, just as I am
appreciative of the work that Blade and Mr. Peori have put in over the
years. Nor do I dismiss the contibutions made by Mr. Masogolites or Mr.
McNerney (or several others, and I apologize for not being able to name
the rest of you). It's been quite revealing - and not just about these
characters.
Bob Macfie
Hunter Kid
>>Should have responded to this in my previous post.
>
>I take it you have no arugments with my translation of the Ranma 1/2
>Memorial Art Book? You should be able to buy it at your local
>Kinokuniya or Asahiya. You should even be able to order it over the
>internet.
The memorial art book, at least from what I know of it, is not a
reliable source for data on the martial arts in the series. Your
translation - which I _did_ refute, incidentally; did my message not
show up? - reinforces my conviction that the book is worthless.
>>Just comparing fighters is fairly easy. Doing a 'ratings chart' like
>>this based on a series like Ranma 1/2 is not (I tried to make one
>>once, it really sucked); for most characters, we have insufficient
>>data.
>
>Correct. Do you now see why Blade's rankings are mostly useless? Given
>all the factors I list, it is possible to have loops in the chart of who
>is more powerful. i.e. A can defeat B, B can defeat C, but C can defeat
>A.
No, an extremely general list like Blade's is somewhat ambiguous, but
it _can_ be done right. A specific list like you propose probably
can't.
As to your second point, I believe Blade admitted that that would
sometimes be the case. His list seemed to almost group them in
threes.
>>Second, how are these even ranked? Numerically? What are the numbers
>>based on? What are they relative to? Who serves as the 'base'? Why?
>>How can you possible hope to draw out a number for categories like
>>this? Who has the final say on the numbers? Etc.
>
>They are not ranked. You may arrange them in alphabetical order if you
>wish. Or by the length of the words, or by any other metric you see
>fit to use. There is no base. This is not specific to Ranma. This is
>not an exhaustive list. This may be too exhaustive for some fights.
>There are no numbers.
I see.
>>If it's _not_ numerical, it's too vague to be useful, IMO. And if
>>it's just overall comparative, then the categories shouldn't be there
>>and the chart would look more like Blade's.
>
>I have to ask how you assign a number to something like morale or
>willpower. These are not specific to an RPG, or anything quite so
>limited.
I don't think you _can_ come up with numbers, so I think the chart is
limited to about the detail - or lack thereof - that Blade provided.
i.e., a generalized comparative chart is the best you're going to get.
Although a specific comparative chart might be interesting, I suppose.
>>>A) Physical:
>>> 1) Strength
>>> 2) Size
>>> 3) Toughness
>>> 5) Agility
>>> 4) Speed
>>> 5) Exhaustion
>>> 7) Weapons/Tools
>>> 6) Other Physical abilities (Flight, Fire balls, etc.)
>
>>Okay, problem #1: the categories overlap. With strength generally
>>comes toughness and good stamina. People who are agile also tend to
>>be fast. People who are big tend to be strong. Weapons/tools are
>>subcategories, not categories, and they combine a _lot_ of different
>>categories, and a lot of the categories mean different things when
>>applied to a weapon.
>
>Again, these are not meant to be exhaustive. It is quite possible to
>be very flexible but slow.
Very true. However, 'agility' comprises a lot more than just
flexibility.
>A lot of really cut people who can bench
>much more than I can, cannot run as long as I can. Yes the categories
>overlap. If you have a more definitive list, and one that has no
>overlap, then I suggest you present it.
I don't think it's possible to create a list in which nothing
overlaps. I'm against this sort of list in general, actually.
>>Problem #2: YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO RANK THESE. Trust me.
>>I've tried. If you _really_ studied the manga, you could probably get
>>numeric rankings for Ranma. Maybe Ryouga. I really doubt you could
>>for anyone else.
>
>That's the entire point. A lot of the time you cannot rank these. This
>is why statements like Blade's where he makes definite statements are so
>very wrong.
Blade's statements, as well as my own and most everyone else's on this
newsgroup, are _not_ definitive; that's what I'm saying. Rather,
they're comparative - i.e., Ranma is better/worse than Ryouga. For
most of the characters, it _is_ possible to compare them to one
another -- but absolute values aren't possible.
>>>B) Mental:
>>> 1) Skill
>>> 2) Intelligence
>>> 3) Tiredness
>>> 4) Suprise
>>> 5) Strategic Sense
>>> 6) Tactical Sense
>>> 7) Adaptability
>>> 8) Emotional State
>>> 9) Self Control
>>> 10) Determination
>
>>Problem #3: some of these categories are too vague or just stupid.
>>'Skill'? Now there's just about the vaguest category I can imagine.
>>What is 'tiredness'? 'Surprise' doesn't make any sense. And problem
>>#1 is even more prominent here. Most of these categories
>>interconnect.
>
>Mental exhaustion. How coherent are you after staying up all night?
>How capable are you of reacting quickly and effectively? How do you
>feel after you've taken the SAT or GRE or MCAT or other large test?
>Are you ready for a game of chess right after finals?
So 'tiredness' is supposed to gauge mental stamina?
>Suprise is a category, you can find it when people advocate ambush or
>stealth. If you are suprised, you generally don't react very well in
>the beginning. Suprise is also a major goal of military strategy,
>which is why you get the US military doing things like the Hail Mary
>move in Desert Storm.
How would you rate 'surprise,' though? Just by saying that, for
example, Ranma is easier/harder to surprise than Ryouga?
>If you have a problem with these categories, I suggest you take up
>tactical sense with Clausewitz, it was called coup d'oeil back then.
>As for suprise, self control, determination, you can take those up
>with Sun Tzu.
The categories are fine. What is _not_ fine is trying to glean values
for the categories from Ranma 1/2. The best you could get, as I said
before, is a comparative list.
>Emotional state should speak for itself in a manga with the
>Shishihoukoudan. If you've done any martial arts or even watched
>something like the Karate Kid, you should have some idea about the
>use of self control (it is called discipline and morale in Clausewitz,
>and Sun Tzu mentions it too).
I've been doing martial arts for about ten years now, so yes, I
recognize the importance of self-control in a fight. I would question
anyone who sought to quantify my self-control, though.
>You may chose to disbelieve that adaptability, skill, intelligence, and
>strategic sense (wisdom might be another word for it) have anything to
>do with fights. I would like to see you show me why they are
>unimportant.
They're extremely important, and extremely hard to quantify. That's
all I'm pointing out.
>Mental states are *very* hard to define, determine, or quantify, which
>is why psychology is still considered a soft science. It doesn't mean
>that they don't exist.
They exist, and, as you say, are very hard to quantify, _especially_
when you're just looking at a manga like Ranma 1/2 in which data is
pretty limited.
Gregory Smith
>ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Anand Chelian) wrote:
>
>>Ranma vs. Ryouga:
>>Hibiki Ryouga:
>> Style: Self styled
>
>I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>tiger-style kung fu as well.
Just a small note; Choy Li Fut is Five a A (pardon, damn computer
has no backspace) is Five Animal Shao-lin in essence. Ryouga does nothing
(IMO) that resembles an animal style... and I've seen more than a little.
Just a qualification here that might put a lot of argument in better
context... Mein Ch'uan is the old name for Tai (back key is very screwed)
Tai Chi Ch'uan. I learned the fact very recently from my Martial Artes master.
In other words, consider very carefully before tying this technique to
someone like Tarou who is so obviously out of touch with anything vaguely
resembling centeredness (Tarou's motivation is his name, from my understanding,
which would not be an acceptible mopt (arg) motivator within Tai Chi logic for
fighting). Again, this knowledge is from my own first hand expereicne...
experience (stupid computer).
Pardon me for not cutting irrelevant stuff out.. the editor I'm using is
fini .... finnicky.
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> Are you ready for a game of chess right after finals?
ALWAYS! But in my case, the more relevant question was whether I was
ready for finals before a game of chess...
Bob Macfie
C'mon, people, did you really expect ME to be able to resist giving my
answer to that question?
Talen
wrote:
>Mental states are *very* hard to define, determine, or quantify, which
>is why psychology is still considered a soft science. It doesn't mean
>that they don't exist.
>
Gods on Earth, Chelian are you so amazingly determined to prove
yourself right over a person you claim to be an idiot (you have by
your tone; I'm not going to bother entering a vast debate with you
over it,) and who you seem to claim isn't brighter than a
seventeen-cent paperclip lightbulb?
If you're this dogged over something as minor as Blade's fighting list
- which seems pretty bloody accurate, considering Blade's almost
encyclopedic knowledge of the mangas, and that only you have really
objected to them in a major way (because it dumps on Ranma, perhaps?)
- I fear for any girl who dumps you; If your'e this obssessive over
what is STILL just a COMIC, perhaps you should avoid the dating scene
until people stop watching Single White Female...
Just a thought.
Anand Chelian
>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
Blade if that is what Takahashi says, then that is what it is, none of your
arguments matter in that case by default. They would only matter if you
had written the manga or if you specifically state that you are diverging
from the authors wishes.
I also specifically state that it has all the important fights. Or what
are considered important fights. If you want to go down to every time
that Akane mallets Ranma and count it as a fight, then I suppose I can
oblige you, it'll just take a lot more time.
>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>manga counts.
It is written by the same author, on the same subject as the manga. And it
is not admissable because the author's opinion doesn't count? Or the author
is not in full consideration of the issues? In other words, you know better
than something written with at least the permission of the author (and by
people from the same culture even if it isn't by the author herself). Tell
me Blade, where did you learn about evidence?
>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>the reasons above.
Are you sure you don't ignore evidence Blade? It says Rumiko Takahashi on
the cover. I can look up the copyright further if you want. You can look
it up yourself if you want.
> Blade
For the record, I am not at all suprised by Blade's response.
Anand Chelian
Talen <patc...@shoalhaven.net.au> wrote:
>On 7 Sep 1999 17:22:47 GMT, ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Anand Chelian)
>wrote:
>>Mental states are *very* hard to define, determine, or quantify, which
>>is why psychology is still considered a soft science. It doesn't mean
>>that they don't exist.
>Gods on Earth, Chelian are you so amazingly determined to prove
>yourself right over a person you claim to be an idiot (you have by
>your tone; I'm not going to bother entering a vast debate with you
>over it,) and who you seem to claim isn't brighter than a
>seventeen-cent paperclip lightbulb?
Well, yes. I don't like his debating style, and that is actually
my major objection to him, the comic book is almost incidental. Hell,
he's the one screaming for evidence and apologies; I'll deliver the
evidence, and apologize after I have researched the matter, if it is
necessary.
>If you're this dogged over something as minor as Blade's fighting list
>- which seems pretty bloody accurate, considering Blade's almost
>encyclopedic knowledge of the mangas, and that only you have really
>objected to them in a major way (because it dumps on Ranma, perhaps?)
First, Blade's knowledge of the manga is not encyclopedic. Second,
his fighting list is not quite so accurate as he claims. Third, he
confuses all the factors that go into a fight with a single one,
skill.
You do realize that most of his examples come from volume 18 and
volumes 22 and 23. There are 35 other volumes out there. I'm mostly
in it for the argument.
>- I fear for any girl who dumps you; If your'e this obssessive over
>what is STILL just a COMIC, perhaps you should avoid the dating scene
>until people stop watching Single White Female...
Look, I felt that Aaron Peori insulted me, and I responded in kind.
Blade was nice enough to jump in and insult me in no uncertain terms.
I haven't liked Blade for a long time and I really enjoy a good
argument. I detest what I see as the methods Blade has used to push
his views, and so I want to discredit Blade so that people see what
methods he used, and will be able to see through such arguments in
the future.
I feel that Blade has shut people up by repeating himself a whole
bunch of times, insulting people, and trotting out the same examples
over and over again, ignoring things that don't agree with his view.
This is a form of demagoguery, I really detest it. I want to show
that Blade is ignoring evidence, and that he has overridden opposition
with quantity not quality, so that people are not quite so taken with
similar arguments in the future. Consider it a small contribution to
democracy.
For the record, I'm actually usually pretty relaxed about most things,
just not arguments, not that you have to believe me. And yes, I can
be convinced by properly presented evidence, and it has been done
before.
>Just a thought.
Thought appreciated. Ignoring him was what I did last time.
Hunter Kid
>>I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
>>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>>tiger-style kung fu as well.
>
>Just a small note; Choy Li Fut is Five a A (pardon, damn computer
>has no backspace) is Five Animal Shao-lin in essence. Ryouga does nothing
>(IMO) that resembles an animal style... and I've seen more than a little.
I do not have first-hand experience with Choy Li Fut, however, I _do_
have some training in tiger-style kung fu Look at Ryouga's hands in
his first fight with Ranma - pretty clearly tiger claws. His emphasis
on his strength, as well as his constant offensive,
take-a-few-hits-then-pound-the-opposition-into-paste style of fighting
are also very tiger-like.
What style did you have in mind for Ryouga?
>>Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
>
>Just a qualification here that might put a lot of argument in better
>context... Mein Ch'uan is the old name for Tai (back key is very screwed)
>Tai Chi Ch'uan. I learned the fact very recently from my Martial Artes master.
You're _sure_ about that? I've never heard that before. The two
styles don't even come from the same temple; Mien Ch'uan comes from
the He Nan Si, Tai Chi Ch'uan comes from the Wu Dang Si.
>In other words, consider very carefully before tying this technique to
>someone like Tarou who is so obviously out of touch with anything vaguely
>resembling centeredness (Tarou's motivation is his name, from my understanding,
>which would not be an acceptible mopt (arg) motivator within Tai Chi logic for
>fighting).
From what I know of the two, however, the philosophies of Mien Ch'uan
and Tai Chi Ch'uan are hugely different. I'm not seeing how they
could possibly be one and the same. No disrespect intended to your
martial arts master...but could you elaborate here? I'm curious.
Hunter Kid
>>If you're this dogged over something as minor as Blade's fighting list
>>- which seems pretty bloody accurate, considering Blade's almost
>>encyclopedic knowledge of the mangas, and that only you have really
>>objected to them in a major way (because it dumps on Ranma, perhaps?)
>
>First, Blade's knowledge of the manga is not encyclopedic. Second,
>his fighting list is not quite so accurate as he claims. Third, he
>confuses all the factors that go into a fight with a single one,
>skill.
But his list was just that: a ranking of the characters' martial arts
_skill_.
>You do realize that most of his examples come from volume 18 and
>volumes 22 and 23. There are 35 other volumes out there. I'm mostly
>in it for the argument.
I'd be interested to hear how he's taking examples for, say, Ryuu from
vols. 18, 22, or 23. ;p
Hunter Kid
>>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
>
>Blade if that is what Takahashi says, then that is what it is, none of your
>arguments matter in that case by default.
Argument by authority?
Consider this:
I write a book in which Bob kills Joe. There is no contention here;
Bob has obviously killed Joe.
I then publish a nonsensical add-on in which I state that, in no
uncertain terms, in the book already published, Joe killed Bob.
Does this change the fact that in my book, Bob killed Joe?
Of course not.
Same applies in this case, although I don't think Takahashi actually
wrote the memorial book.
Anand Chelian
Hunter Kid <gui...@mail.serve.com> wrote:
>ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Anand Chelian) wrote:
>
>>>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>>>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
>>Blade if that is what Takahashi says, then that is what it is, none of your
>>arguments matter in that case by default.
>Argument by authority?
>Consider this:
>I write a book in which Bob kills Joe. There is no contention here;
>Bob has obviously killed Joe.
>I then publish a nonsensical add-on in which I state that, in no
>uncertain terms, in the book already published, Joe killed Bob.
You mean the manga is a serious, consistent piece of literature, and that
the Memorial Book is not. Why is it not consistent with the manga, why is
it a nonsensical add-on? You do have the work you are claiming is a non-
sensical add-on, or you have looked at it before dismissing haven't you?
Because it doesn't agree with your views or Blade's?
>Does this change the fact that in my book, Bob killed Joe?
>Of course not.
Sure it can. Have you ever watched Star Trek? Or watched a sequel where
the main character died, but came back for the sequel? Guess what happens
in the extended timeline?
This is, of course, not the point, as I don't see where the Memorial Book
is not consistent with the manga.
>Same applies in this case, although I don't think Takahashi actually
>wrote the memorial book.
Tell you what... why don't you look it up and see who it is copyrighted
by? Tell me who the staff is who worked on it.
>George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
Hunter Kid
>>Argument by authority?
>
>>Consider this:
>
>>I write a book in which Bob kills Joe. There is no contention here;
>>Bob has obviously killed Joe.
>
>>I then publish a nonsensical add-on in which I state that, in no
>>uncertain terms, in the book already published, Joe killed Bob.
>
>You mean the manga is a serious, consistent piece of literature, and that
>the Memorial Book is not. Why is it not consistent with the manga, why is
>it a nonsensical add-on? You do have the work you are claiming is a non-
>sensical add-on, or you have looked at it before dismissing haven't you?
>Because it doesn't agree with your views or Blade's?
I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
>>Does this change the fact that in my book, Bob killed Joe?
>
>>Of course not.
>
>Sure it can. Have you ever watched Star Trek? Or watched a sequel where
>the main character died, but came back for the sequel? Guess what happens
>in the extended timeline?
>
>This is, of course, not the point, as I don't see where the Memorial Book
>is not consistent with the manga.
In the post you made, I pointed out numerous instances where it was
inconsistant with the manga, often very glaringly. Successfully
refute those points, and you might have an argument here -- but I
don't think you'll be able to.
>>Same applies in this case, although I don't think Takahashi actually
>>wrote the memorial book.
>
>Tell you what... why don't you look it up and see who it is copyrighted
>by? Tell me who the staff is who worked on it.
I'm aware that it has Takahashi's name on it. But if the details are
as pathetically researched as the ones that you posted in your post, I
cannot believe that Takahashi actually wrote it.
Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
the manga, it is wrong. Period.
Anand Chelian
>In article <7qfee2$b...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu says...
>>In article <37CB4B58...@ns.sympatico.ca>,
>>Aaron Peori <tz...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>> I'll note that in the fanfic Blade (kumo...@hotmail.com) and you are
>>>> writing, that Ranma's independent female form learns stuff fast enough
>>>> take on anybody else. Now note that this is Ranma stripped of a lot of
>>>> his macho attitude, now see that *in your own* story, Tarou couldn't
>>>> beat Ranma without cheating (he agreed not to use his cursed form, but
>>>> broke that promise thereby defaulting the match). Since Ranma's female
>>>> form *is* Ranma's mind, but more independent, doesn't it mean that
>>>> Ranma can beat up everybody.
>>>This is...
>>>Utterly insignificant.
>>>Firstly that fanfic was written -years- ago, back when both
>>>of us had no a smidge of our current knowledge of Ranma 1/2
>>>and made several glaring errors (which we will be undoing
>>>when we rewrite CoD in a few weeks).
>>Then why are you using the same arguments from the same places to
>>the same conclusion that you were back then (that was when I put
>>you in my killfile because I didn't have time to deal with you).
>We aren't, and I can refute that little lie as well.
Sure... go ahead. Refute it. How are your arguments different from
what you were doing back then?
>Any other gratituous insults you want to toss, Chelian?
You are still in my killfile in rec.arts.anime.misc. It wasn't a lie,
I didn't have time to deal with you. How is that a gratuitous insult?
>>It also illustrates what I think is a recurring pattern of thought.
>>And a bit of hypocrisy in your actual evaluations of what the
>>fighters were capable of.
>Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as you have not
>and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
From your story: You can take a look at what you wrote. The show me how
Senchi is not Ranma w/o morals, etc. You have one possible alternate
explanation, where Amigi is "restoring" Senchi's original personality,
but that conflicts with Nodoka and Genma's story, what Cologne knows,
and what you put in your story introductions.
================ new file ====================
From: chmc...@upei.ca (Blade)
Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
Chapter 2
My Name is Senchi
[snip]
Amigi: Here boy, CATCH!
(He flicks it at Ranma. The unstoppered vial flips end over end through
the air, defying physics by not spilling anything. With a flicker of
movement, Ranma snatches it. As he does so, the powder within explodes
in a cloud around him.)
Cologne: Noooooooo! Amigi, you fool!
(The dust begins to settle around Ranma. Ukyou, who was only a foot or
so away, is untouched by the powder while Ranma appears to be completely
coated. Everyone stares at him with expressions ranging from surprise,
to apprehension, to expectation. Then Ranma crinkles his nose and
sneezes. He sneezes again and shakes his head.)
Amigi: Well boy, how do you like my present?
Ranma: Sneezing powder? All this over sneezing powder? (incredulous)
You went through all that for a practical joke?
Amigi: (frowns) Don't you feel...different?
Ranma: No, of course not!
Amigi: No strange compulsions or unusual feelings?
Ranma: Listen you, I feel fine. My nose itches like crazy, but otherwise
I'm completely normal!
Amigi: Oh well. It must have been a defective batch. I'll make some
fresh stuff. Come along Tzubi, we shall leave here.
Tzubi(under breath): I _knew_ this wasn't going to be simple.
(Amigi and Tzubi exit through the shredded door.)
[snip]
Shampoo: <Hai?>
Cologne: <I've discovered something. A magical spice that looks and
feels so much like Darkechilde spice that I couldn't tell the difference...
and I don't think Amigi could, either.>
Shampoo: <What?>
Cologne: <Femme Fatale spice! Quickly, we must get back to the dojo!>
=============== new file ===============
From: chmc...@upei.ca (Blade)
Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
Chapter 3
The Killing Cure
Tzubi: You need someone to keep your head out of the clouds.
(Amigi sniffs disdainfully and waves his arm. The illusionary wind
stops and the mist disperses, revealing the ceiling-a mosaic of the
night sky. He settles to the ground and looks deeply into the
still-hovering orb. After a moment, he smiles.)
Amigi: Soooo, _that's_ what went wrong...
Tzubi: What?
(Amigi gestures for Tzubi to approach, which the boy does.)
Amigi: Gaze into the crystal, boy, and all truth shall be revealed.
Tzubi: That's so corny...
Amigi(irritated): Just look into it already.
(Tzubi shrugs and looks into the orb. His vision-and ours-seems to
be absorbed into the sphere and travel into it like water into a funnel.
We see the Tendo Dojo from the beginning of the last scene; but
everything is tinged blue and there is no sound.)
Tzubi(hollow-sounding): It's the dojo...I recognize most of them, but
the woman, boy and girl aren't familiar...who are they?
Amigi(also hollow): Watch. Pay particular attention to the new girl...
(As we watch, Tarou steps forward and pours the kettle over Senchi's
head. Instant boy. The vision jerks, then is replaced by a view of
Tzubi pulling his head away from the orb, eyes wide.)
Tzubi: What the...
Amigi: Indeed. It appears there is more to this Ranma than I thought.
Tzubi: How'd he _do_ that?!? I could have sworn she, I mean he,
was a she!
Amigi: He was. Do you remember me telling you of Jyusenkyou...
(We watch the orb for a moment. When our view returns, time has passed.)
Tzubi: (leaning back) So this Ranma would be cursed to transform into
a girl when he comes into contact with cold water, and back to a boy
with hot water?
Amigi: (nods) And the cursed biology might have affected my spice.
Tzubi: This is just too weird...
Amigi: I need to get my hands on that boy! I must study how the curse
affected my magic!
Tzubi: You know, you may have used the wrong spice...
Amigi: Perhaps...either way, I need the boy. (grins maliciously) I
must see him so that I know how this affects my plans. (chuckles) He
_will_ serve DMSESREPBHPTT(pronounced dem-ses-rep-bfft)!!! (laughs
megalomaniacally)
[snip]
Nabiki: (sighs) Very well. (stands up) We're not sure why-exactly-
Ranma was doing what he was doing. However, I believe it can be
attributed to one Amigi Diatonabi.
Ranma: Huh? What does that nutcase have to do with this?
Nabiki: Ranma, Ranma, Ranma...you've had experiences with magic before.
Did you really think that spice would have no effect on you?
Ranma: Well...I was kinda hopin'...
Nabiki: Obviously, his magic is affecting your female form in some way.
[snip]
Cologne: Indeed. I think I know your problem...and its solution.
[snip]
(Scene: The dojo; same situation as when we left it a few pages ago.)
Akane: What do you mean you know what our problem is?
Nodoka: And who are you?
Cologne: (looks at Nodoka with narrowed eyes) I am Cologne, and who,
may I ask, are you?
Nodoka: I am Nodoka Saotome, Ranma's mother.
Cologne(surprised): Indeed?
Shampoo(excited): Aiya! Husband's mom! Shampoo pleased meet!
Nodoka: Wha? Husband...
Nabiki: Why don't we talk about these other things later. Right now,
I'm more interested in what Cologne thinks is the problem.
Nodoka: Yes. First I must know what is wrong with my son.
Tarou: He's a wimp, a transvestite, a jerk, and he thinks too highly
of his own abilities.
Nodoka: You're not helping matters, Tarou.
Cologne: Very well, let me guess what is wrong: First, Ranma is acting
like a girl in female form. Second, he seems to have no memory of being
a boy at those times. And finally, he does not wish to be called by his
real name.
Nabiki: It seems she's hit the nail on the head.
Akane: How'd you know that? (growls) Are _you_ responsible for this?
Cologne: Of course not. Why would I turn son-in-law into a psychopath?
Akane: Maybe to force him to marry Shampoo for the cure.
[snip]
Cologne: (looks away) If it weren't for his Jyusenkyou curse, I'd say
it was a textbook case. All the symptoms are there...
Akane: Symptoms of what?
Cologne: Amigi, through either planning or mishap, exposed Ranma to a
magical herb called Femme Fatale spice. It causes the affected person to
become...well, evil. All inhibitions and morals simply cease, and the
victim develops a completely new personality. They create a new
name for themselves and generally either don't acknowledge or can't
remember their past life. Those that have been forced to remember their
former identity usually feel hatred towards it.
Akane: Wait. If that's true, then why hasn't Ranma been acting like
this all the time? Why only when he's a she?
Cologne: Because Femme Fatale spice only affects females.
Shampoo: Aiya! You mean Ranma...
Cologne: ...has developed a split personality, which will come about
whenever his curse is activated.
Nabiki: (smiles) This just keeps getting more and more interesting.
Akane: Is there a cure?
Cologne: Hai. (holds up a vial of clear liquid) This is anti-
personality poison.
Nodoka(concerned): Poison?
Cologne: (nods) It was developed primarily as a poison. It completely
eradicates someone's personality when ingested. There is only one
person living today who has taken it. His name is Ryu, or something
like that...
Nodoka: You want to turn my son into a vegetable?!?
Cologne: No. This will eradicate the personality that has replaced
Ranma's in female form and return him to normal.
[snip]
================ new file =============
From: chmc...@upei.ca (Blade)
Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
Chapter 4
Rumble in Nerima
Ranma: Doesn't matter to me. I've seen weirder...and cornier...stuff.
Amigi: I'm sure you have. (rummages in the chest) Ah, there you are!
Ranma: (turns to him) There what is?
(Amigi stands up, holding something to his chest. However, his back is to
Ranma and we can't see what it is.)
Amigi: Just a little something I need to talk to my guest.
Ranma: Your guest? I thought _I_ was your guest.
Amigi: (chuckles evilly) You thought wrong. I want to speak to someone
else.
Ranma: But...who?
(Amigi turns rapidly and swings a bucket at Ranma.)
Amigi: HER!
(The water descends on Ranma, who is instantly drenched...and no longer
a he.)
Senchi: Ahh! Cold! (shakes herself) What'd you do that for?
Amigi(politely): I apologise for the impromptu soaking, Ms...?
Senchi: Saotome.
Amigi: And your first name?
Senchi(mutters): Finally, someone who _won't_ call me Ranma... (out loud)
Senchi.
Amigi: (smiles) Senchi. A very nice name.
Senchi: Well, thank you. I haven't gotten much positive reaction to it.
Amigi(seriously): I am not surprised.
Senchi: Oh?
Amigi: Have people been referring to you as Ranma?
Senchi: Hai. (looks surprised)
Amigi: And acting strangely towards you?
Senchi: (obviously curious) Hai.
Amigi: (nods solemnly) Indeed, then it is true.
Senchi: What is?
Amigi: That you have finally escaped.
Senchi: (blinks) Escaped? Escaped what? I was never held by anyone...
Amigi: (raises his hand) Not physically escaped, _mentally_ escaped.
Senchi: Huh?
Amigi: This is all very complex, but let's just say that you are...a
victim of a terrible injustice.
Senchi: Injustice?
Amigi: When you were born, a curse was cast upon you.
Senchi: Curse?
Amigi: (nods) Hai. A curse which transformed you into a boy, instead of
the girl you were meant to be.
Senchi: (frowns) But how...
Amigi: Wait, allow me to explain. (deep breath) You see, transformed into
a boy you never developed naturally. They named you "Ranma", and treated
you like a boy, so you developed a boy's personality.
Senchi: You lost me...
Amigi: Just hear me out. Now fortunately for you, Ranma went to the
cursed springs of Jyusenkyou, where he fell into the spring of drowned
girl and was twice cursed. You see, whenever you are exposed to hot water
you become Ranma, and cold water changes you back.
Senchi: Huh?
Amigi: I warned you this was complex. (clears throat) After Ranma was
cursed, though, your original personality did not emerge. I, or rather
my organization, learned about you and came at once.
Senchi: Why?
Amigi: Huh?
Senchi: Why did you want to help me? You don't know me...
Amigi: Who said it was to help you? And you are wrong, I do know you.
Many, many years ago, I met Ranma and his-your-father. In Ranma, I saw
you. Your father made a deal with us that involved my training you-among
other things-and I came to see it through. When I realized you were still
trapped, I thought it best to free you, and did so.
Senchi: Free me?
Amigi: I used magic to restore your personality. To drive out all that
male training and bring to the fore your personality as it was meant to
be.
Senchi: So what you're saying is that I'm the real Ranma?
Amigi: No, you're the real _Senchi_. Ranma is the _false_ you. And to
answer your earlier question, I have no idea who originally cursed you.
[snip]
==================== new file ================
From: chmc...@upei.ca (Blade)
Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
Chapter 5
Senchi's First Date
(Scene: a bathroom. Senchi enters and steps up to the mirror.
She pulls out a container of lipstick and puts her purse down by
the sink. Holding the tube up, she waits expectantly. Her
reflection in the mirror seems to blur and distort, then is
suddenly replaced by an image of Ranma in his tunic and pants.
Ranma steps back.)
Ranma(slightly distorted voice): Huh? How in...
Senchi: (starts applying the lipstick) You still don't get it,
Ranma? Of course not. (puckers her lips and puts the tube away)
We're the _same_ person, Ranma. I'm just all the emotions, brains
and desires you've never used, all wrapped up in a feminine
package. Thanks to the training I got from Amigi, not only can
I keep you from seeing what I do, but I can let us talk anytime I
want.
Ranma: Are we dreaming again?
Senchi: No, this is the real world. I'm just letting you see
through my eyes like you used to be able to do. I, however, can
not see you, nor can anybody else.
=================== new file =================
Reply-To: chmc...@upei.ca (Blade)
C&A Productions (corny, huh?) Presents:
Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
Ranma: And I'll only agree if it's a fair fight. Man against
man, not man against monster.
Tarou: Very well. I won't splash myself, but only if you agree
not to use your Hiryuu Shoten Ha.
Ranma: But that's...
Tarou: Part of your regular arsenal? So's _my_ cursed form.
Then again, you know a lot about using your cursed form, don't
you, freak?
Ranma(low, deadly tone): Done. Anything to get _you_ out
of Nerima. (he stalks off)
Tarou: See you tomorrow, fem-boy.
Ranma: COMBINATION TECHNIQUE KACHUU BISHA TAKAKEN!!!!
(His arms flash forward, the fists uncurling long enough to
emit tiny spheres of yellow confident ki. Tarou dodges, once,
twice, a third time, then with an evil chuckle grabs Ranma's
extended arm and steers it straight into the wall. With a bang
it blows open, something hidden inside popping like a water
balloon. But Tarou has turned his guard, if only for a second,
and Ranma's free hand slams into his side and releases a blast
of ki that throws Tarou outside. However, Tarou hasn't released
his grip, and Ranma too is dragged through the shower of
debris...and water...)
Kasumi: Oh my...
Akane: RANMA!!! (she runs to the hole)
(The others also run over, and look out upon the now dramatically
altered conflict. The nimble form of Senchi is clinging to the
back of the monstrous Tarou, while his tentacles wave about in
flashing arcs meant to dislodge her. But Senchi is too fast for
the wiggling appendages, giving her time to slip between the coils.
Tarou grunts, and then lifts himself skyward, gaining altitude at
a fantastic rate. The spectators watch, speechless, as the two
disappear, forms blurring into the rising sun.)
[snip]
Voice: Good...
(They all turn to see Tarou. The boy has climbed out of the wreckage,
his face pale. The very obvious reason for this is sticking out of
the side of his stomach in the form of a long wooden shaft.)
Tarou: That means...I... (begins to waver shakily) win...fem-
booooooo... (he collapses to the ground, throwing up a cloud of dust)
[snip]
================= end story excerpt ===============
>>Secondly, do not
>>>presume to judge Ranma and Senchi (said evil half of Ranma)
>>>as the same. They aren't. Trust me.
>>They were... Senchi was simply much more ruthless than Ranma in his
>>male form. That was what you presented in the original. In which
>>case, the only think keeping the others alive is the fact that Ranma
>>is a nice guy.
>No, that is what people assumed. That doesn't mean it's the truth. There is no
>EVIDENCE to support this, and indeed, several things-like the fact Senchi can
>use the Ra Shin Ginkiri-make it pretty obvious there is more going on than what
>people think.
Ranma isn't being taught the Ra Shin Ginkiri... that is why he can't use it.
Also, I note that Tarou wins using his cursed form, breaking a condition he
agreed to before the fight. He automatically forfeits the match, and while
a rematch can be held, he did not win under the conditions he agreed to.
Ranma, by contrast, did not use the Hiryuushotenha.
Hunter Kid
>>Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as you have not
>>and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
>
>From your story: You can take a look at what you wrote. The show me how
>Senchi is not Ranma w/o morals, etc. You have one possible alternate
>explanation, where Amigi is "restoring" Senchi's original personality,
>but that conflicts with Nodoka and Genma's story, what Cologne knows,
>and what you put in your story introductions.
Anand, if that is what Blade says, then that is what it is, none of
your arguments matter in that case by default. They would only matter
if you had written the story or if you specifically state that you are
diverging from the authors wishes.
Either you want to hold a double standard, or you should be seeing how
ridiculous your earlier argument was.
Bob Macfie
Hunter Kid wrote:
> I write a book in which Bob kills Joe. There is no contention here;
> Bob has obviously killed Joe.
I did no such thing! I was framed, I tell you - what? Oh. Never mind.
> Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
> manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
> the manga, it is wrong. Period.
Even if that is not true (I can't argue that either way, right now), it
is very true that it is nowhere NEAR a complete listing of the important
fights. We're not talking about "Akane slams Ranma because of something
stupid he said" scenarios here.
Now, if your list was entirely from the Memorial book - and you didn't
include any other fights (because if you did, you've proven my point) -
I can prove it an incomplete list with ONE example.
You count the Ranma vs. Picolet rematch as an important match, but you
don't menition the match that necessitated the rematch. If Ranma hadn't
been beaten, he wouldn't have felt the need to go through the nonsense
that occured in that storyline, correct. Since he did, it's obvious that
his initial loss was VERY important.
But you didn't include it on the list. This makes your chart suspect,
as well as your source for important fights.
The general concensus, Mr. Chelian, seems to be that the Memorial book
is considered a dubious material from which to base your arguments. You
may debate that, but it really doesn't get you any closer to proving the
case for Ranma (or even against Blade, to be frank). It may be possible
for you to make your point - but to do so to the satisfaction of anyone
here, it is probably going to have to be done with the original material
(i.e. the manga).
Bob Macfie
s. soboroff
again? First off, Blade is not doing anything wrong in his argumentation.
Citing specific sources, regarless of how limited a number of sources he
uses, has produced what I feel is a considerable argument for his
viewpoint. The original question involves relative strengths of the
fighters in Ranma 1/2, or am I mistaken? This isn't some personal deal.
And I don't think anyone wants to hear about this being made personal by
insult or any other eventuality of online discourse. I don't believe
either of you meant to insult the other, at least in the beginning.
Though in taking exception with the other's views I feel you could have
been a little more diplomatic.
So we get down to the question: Who is stronger. Can it be
answered? Yes, but only if you are following the same rules. If you're
not arguing on an even playing field, with each variable defined so that
anyone can know what you mean by what you are saying, then you aren't
arguing--you're misunderstanding. What is skill? Find a common meaning.
What is strength? Do the same. Then pool everything you know, and send
it out. Not in argument, but in objective citation. I believe that Blade
does this, although I think he likes to rub it in a little. You also have
some knowledge of the manga, though I do not believe it is as full. And
remember, this is supposed to be fun. Read for the fun of it. It's a
comic book! And for God's sake, take it off the newsgroup. Its been
going on for nearly a month. This is what we have private e-mail for.
You guys can more efficiently settle this with open dialogue. And yes,
one or both of you may have to reach a synthesis in your arguments. It is
okay to be incorrect, as long as you accept that. Of course I fully
expect to be told to shut my ass up and stay out of it. But what the hell
do I have to be doing right now? Obviously not much, or I wouldn't care
about this stuff in the first place.
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> In article <37d6ce33....@news.mindspring.com>,
> Hunter Kid <gui...@mail.serve.com> wrote:
> >I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
> >post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
> >manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
>
> No, you claim that it is inaccurate because it disagrees with you and
> is put out by a more authoritative source than you are.
>
> >In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
> >problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
>
> I'll have to wait until your post comes to my newsspool. BTW, it is
> 100% from the manga, partially evidenced from the fact that it is put
> out under Shonen Sunday, not Fuji Television or Pony Canyon.
>
> >Same applies in this case, although I don't think Takahashi actually
> >wrote the memorial book.
>
> >>Tell you what... why don't you look it up and see who it is copyrighted
> >>by? Tell me who the staff is who worked on it.
>
> >I'm aware that it has Takahashi's name on it. But if the details are
> >as pathetically researched as the ones that you posted in your post, I
> >cannot believe that Takahashi actually wrote it.
>
> She wrote it. From the back of the book:
> Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book
> Series: Shonen Sunday Graphic
> Chosha (Author): Takahashi Rumiko
> Copyright: Takahashi Rumiko, June 6th, 1996
> Hakkousha (Publisher): Kawai Tsunekichi
> Company: Shogakkan
> ISBN: 4-09-101174-8
>
Believe it or not, there is still ground for suspicion. Had this been
assembled by committee (quite likely in these cases) and then sent to R.
Takahashi for approval, it would still be credited to her. Even as the
art in the original series is all credited to her - without any mention
of her assistant(s). (And she does use them.)
Bob Macfie
Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> In article <37D6FA6F...@3web.net>,
> Bob Macfie <bob.m...@shell.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Hunter Kid wrote:
>
> >... it is very true that it is nowhere NEAR a complete listing of the
> >important fights.
>
> I never claimed that it was a complete list, here is what I wrote:
> "Blade keeps claiming that he knows the outcomes of fights in the > manga. I have here stuff copied from a primary source (making this
> post a secondary source) that gives the outcomes of some of the fights
> Blade uses as examples. It is a complete listing of what was in that
> section of the Ranma 1/2 Memorial Art Book written by Rumiko
> Takahashi, so it should be a listing of all the important fights.
> The only thing that I have added is the Kakutou Cheerleading battle
> which I found on page 105."
>
Okay, let's go over this statement. You refer to this book as a primary
source, that is, one from the original author of the manga. You are, of
course, quite correct that Blade (or any of the rest of us) are a secon-
dary source. What is at dispute here is the validity of this primary
source, when THE primary source is available and contradicts claims made
in your own (possibly) primary source.
I'm not going to dispute actual results here, but I will dispute what
got counted - and what didn't. I don't care who compiled the list, it is
obviously not complete, and that makes it of dubious value (especially
for the chart you included, I should add).
And no, you didn't claim it was a complete list, mentioning that you
had added one item. However, you said, "it should be a listing of all
the important fights," before adding one fight yourself. Note again that
you said, "should be..." then demonstrated it was not. And I added to
that list.
There is a fine difference between what you said and what I claimed you
said. Enough that I will apologize for misquoting you. But not enough to
justify the claim that this should be a recognized source, when it fails
to be what it "should be". It isn't.
Now, please stick to THE primary source. Use the Memorial book to guide
you, if you wish, but don't expect it to be recognized.
> It is a complete listing of what is in the section. Not a complete
> listing of all fights. It should be what the author considers
> important, otherwise, why would she include it in an incomplete list > of the fights.
>
Because she enjoyed creating those ones the most? Or because those were
the ones that appealed most to the eye of a committee, the ones they'd
agreed to use in the space they'd allotted for such materials. Or one of
so many other reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not they
are the most important fights in the book, when it pertains to questions
of fighting skill.
> I did not say that it was a list of all the fights.
>
Exuse me. You suggested that it should be a list of all the important
fights. And it missed one.
> > You count the Ranma vs. Picolet rematch as an important match, but
> >you don't mention the match that necessitated the rematch. If Ranma
> >hadn't been beaten, he wouldn't have felt the need to go through the
> >nonsense that occured in that storyline, correct. Since he did, it's
> >obvious that his initial loss was VERY important.
>
> Was the initial fight any contest?
No. Does it matter just because Ranma didn't have a chance?
> It was obvious any of the other martial artists in the manga would
> have lost to Picolet.
True. What of it?
> Why would it be important that Ranma lost the fight if he won the
> fight where he would not have to marry Picolet?
So all that matters is the final fight, is that it? Even if Ranma still
owes the Chardin family payment for losing the initial match (that was
his first-born daughter in the English version, by the way).
In effect, that means that P-chan's victory (with the abdominal mark)
over Ranma doesn't count either, because all that matters is that Ranma
eventually got rid of it. You can't have it both ways.
> When considering whether a fight is important, you should consider
> what's at stake as well.
>
Ah! Then you are arguing Blade's case, "Ranma always wins when it
counts the most." But let's ignore that for the moment.
What you have said that avenging classmates and defending personal his
personal honour were not important enough to qualify the initial match
as an important fight. All that matters is what that Ranma would have to
marry Picolet if he lost, according to you. But that was the stake, NOT
the reason for the challenge. And the reason is no less important, the
reason is why Ranma fought, NOT the stake.
> > The general concensus, Mr. Chelian, seems to be that the Memorial
> >book is considered a dubious material from which to base your > >arguments.
>
> By whom? Hunter Kid, Aaron Peori, and Blade? They have a vested
> interest in ignoring the evidence.
>
What vested interest, may I ask? That it "proves" them wrong? And where
is my vested interest, Mr. Chelian? Because I too insist that this is a
dubious source, yet you have used it in favour of one that is accepted
by all other parties involved in this dispute. It's A source that can't
be disputed - the manga.
You have access to it, so use it.
> I want acknowledgement that Rumiko Takahashi's opinion is the single
> most important opinion out there. Where she says something, it goes.
It may be the most important opinion, but it too can be challenged. I
would be a fool to believe otherwise. Authors have been known to have
faulty or biased knowledge of their own works - but that doesn't mean
that their opinions aren't important.
> Otherwise, we are not talking about the manga Takahashi drew, we are
> talking about the manga Blade drew. If Takahashi's opinion is not
> relevant to the discussion, then I want a statement made by Blade on
> the newsgroup to that effect.
I don't think Blade has argued any such thing. After all, he insists
that THE primary source be used for this debate, which means that he is
deferring to her most accurate presentation of the facts. Anything that
follows it is a matter of interest, but it is not THE source material.
You've demonstrated that you have said material, so please stick to it.
Bob Macfie
Aaron Peori
>
> In article <7qmsth$5...@drn.newsguy.com>, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Not that you can support this by any logic or evidence, the same as you have not
> >and can not refute any of our arguments by logic or evidence.
>
> From your story: You can take a look at what you wrote. The show me how
> Senchi is not Ranma w/o morals, etc. You have one possible alternate
> explanation, where Amigi is "restoring" Senchi's original personality,
> but that conflicts with Nodoka and Genma's story, what Cologne knows,
> and what you put in your story introductions.
Congratulations Anand, you have done the one thing that my
co-author has been unable to do for almost a year and a half
now, rekindled my interest in actually -finishing- Curse of
Darkness. Why? So we can get to the latter information that
has not been revealed in the series yet and refute all your
claims. ;p
True, I have to admit that NOW, one can make an argument
along the lines that Senchi is just Ranma without morals.
However, one can also make an argument to the reverse or to
a whole lot of other scenarios. I don't believe in author's
caveat, so I won't say you are deliberatly wrong at this
point (okay, I won't say it again) but I will say that you
will be wrong.
Esepcially when we get to the sequel.
Also, I'll be doing a CoD re-write (planned long before this
debate started) so some of the crappy material in here will
be fixed. Because of the piss-poor characterizations, the
contradictory with the manga fight scene physics and so on.
I will refute one thing however... something subtle that
most people don't catch.
>
> C&A Productions (corny, huh?) Presents:
>
> Ranma 1/2: Curse of Darkness
>
> Ranma: And I'll only agree if it's a fair fight. Man against
> man, not man against monster.
>
> Tarou: Very well. I won't splash myself, but only if you agree
> not to use your Hiryuu Shoten Ha.
Note: I will repeat the relevant part of this with the
important word in ALL CAPS. "I won't splash MYSELF"
And then...
> Ranma: COMBINATION TECHNIQUE KACHUU BISHA TAKAKEN!!!!
> (His arms flash forward, the fists uncurling long enough to
> emit tiny spheres of yellow confident ki. Tarou dodges, once,
> twice, a third time, then with an evil chuckle grabs Ranma's
> extended arm and steers it straight into the wall. With a bang
> it blows open, something hidden inside popping like a water
> balloon. But Tarou has turned his guard, if only for a second,
> and Ranma's free hand slams into his side and releases a blast
> of ki that throws Tarou outside. However, Tarou hasn't released
> his grip, and Ranma too is dragged through the shower of
> debris...and water...)
Not this paragraph. TECHNICALLY Tarou did NOT in fact
"splash himself". Of course, Ranma is unlikely to accept
that as the token truth but Tarou didn't actually do it.
Ranma is the one that forced them out through the spray of
water.
This fight was left deliberatly ambigious.
{snip)
> Ranma isn't being taught the Ra Shin Ginkiri... that is why he can't >use it.
Then how can Senchi?
She used it -spontaneously-, out of nowhere, with no idea
how it worked and no one has been able to figure out what it
is. Aside from the fact that it is the "secret of Ginkiri",
the most powerful of the "god race" that Amigi describes.
--------------
Epsilon
Anand Chelian
Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book
Series: Shonen Sunday Graphics
Chosha (author) Takahashi Rumiko
Copyright: Takahashi Rumiko, June 6th, 1996
Company: Shogakkan
ISBN: 4-09-101174-8
In article <7r3l5p$11...@drn.newsguy.com>, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
You mean in your opinion. I think with what I just presented about the
author and other information, you should be able to tell who wrote it.
>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>manga counts.
It is a manga supplement. Based entirely on what happened in the manga,
written by the author of the manga. It is certainly more reliable than
you or I in its evaluations of the fighters.
>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>the reasons above.
It was written by Takahashi. I have my evidence above. You may feel
free to dispute it, but I want the same quality of reference. You
should have enough information to buy the book if you need.
I note that you are ignoring primary evidence that you don't like.
> Blade
Anand Chelian
>> Bob has obviously killed Joe.
> I did no such thing! I was framed, I tell you - what? Oh. Never mind.
>> Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
>> manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
>> the manga, it is wrong. Period.
> Even if that is not true (I can't argue that either way, right now), it
>is very true that it is nowhere NEAR a complete listing of the important
>fights. We're not talking about "Akane slams Ranma because of something
>stupid he said" scenarios here.
I never claimed that it was a complete list, here is what I wrote:
"Blade keeps claiming that he knows the outcomes of fights in the manga.
I have here stuff copied from a primary source (making this post a
secondary source) that gives the outcomes of some of the fights Blade
uses as examples. It is a complete listing of what was in that section
of the Ranma 1/2 Memorial Art Book written by Rumiko Takahashi, so it
should be a listing of all the important fights. The only thing that
I have added is the Kakutou Cheerleading battle which I found on page
105."
It is a complete listing of what is in the section. Not a complete
listing of all fights. It should be what the author considers important,
otherwise, why would she include it in an incomplete list of the fights.
> Now, if your list was entirely from the Memorial book - and you didn't
>include any other fights (because if you did, you've proven my point) -
>I can prove it an incomplete list with ONE example.
I did not say that it was a list of all the fights.
> You count the Ranma vs. Picolet rematch as an important match, but you
>don't menition the match that necessitated the rematch. If Ranma hadn't
>been beaten, he wouldn't have felt the need to go through the nonsense
>that occured in that storyline, correct. Since he did, it's obvious that
>his initial loss was VERY important.
Was the initial fight any contest? It was obvious any of the other martial
artists in the manga would have lost to Picolet. Why would it be important
that Ranma lost the fight if he won the fight where he would not have to
marry Picolet? When considering whether a fight is important, you should
consider what's at stake as well.
> The general concensus, Mr. Chelian, seems to be that the Memorial book
>is considered a dubious material from which to base your arguments.
By whom? Hunter Kid, Aaron Peori, and Blade? They have a vested
interest in ignoring the evidence.
You
>may debate that, but it really doesn't get you any closer to proving the
>case for Ranma (or even against Blade, to be frank). It may be possible
>for you to make your point - but to do so to the satisfaction of anyone
>here, it is probably going to have to be done with the original material
>(i.e. the manga).
I want acknowledgement that Rumiko Takahashi's opinion is the single most
important opinion out there. Where she says something, it goes.
Otherwise, we are not talking about the manga Takahashi drew, we are
talking about the manga Blade drew. If Takahashi's opinion is not relevant
to the discussion, then I want a statement made by Blade on the newsgroup
to that effect.
> Bob Macfie
Anand Chelian
>>You mean the manga is a serious, consistent piece of literature, and that
>>the Memorial Book is not. Why is it not consistent with the manga, why is
>>it a nonsensical add-on? You do have the work you are claiming is a non-
>>sensical add-on, or you have looked at it before dismissing haven't you?
>>Because it doesn't agree with your views or Blade's?
>I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
>post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
>manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
No, you claim that it is inaccurate because it disagrees with you and is
put out by a more authoritative source than you are.
>In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
>problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
I'll have to wait until your post comes to my newsspool. BTW, it is
100% from the manga, partially evidenced from the fact that it is put
out under Shonen Sunday, not Fuji Television or Pony Canyon.
>>>Same applies in this case, although I don't think Takahashi actually
>>>wrote the memorial book.
>>Tell you what... why don't you look it up and see who it is copyrighted
>>by? Tell me who the staff is who worked on it.
>I'm aware that it has Takahashi's name on it. But if the details are
>as pathetically researched as the ones that you posted in your post, I
>cannot believe that Takahashi actually wrote it.
She wrote it. From the back of the book:
Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book
Series: Shonen Sunday Graphic
Chosha (Author): Takahashi Rumiko
Copyright: Takahashi Rumiko, June 6th, 1996
Hakkousha (Publisher): Kawai Tsunekichi
Company: Shogakkan
ISBN: 4-09-101174-8
>Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
>manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
>the manga, it is wrong. Period.
Tell me exactly where it conflicts with the manga. Volume, page, and
panel. I think you will find that it is only your opinion it conflicts
with.
>George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
Hunter Kid
>> The general concensus, Mr. Chelian, seems to be that the Memorial book
>>is considered a dubious material from which to base your arguments.
>
>By whom? Hunter Kid, Aaron Peori, and Blade? They have a vested
>interest in ignoring the evidence.
The only valid evidence is the manga.
_Not_ the memorial book.
This is shown clearly when the memorial book repeatedly contradicts
the manga. How can you possibly consider the memorial book a more
valid source than the manga it attempts to memorialize? The memorial
book claims that Ranma won the final fight in volume 20, while in the
manga, Ryouga _clearly_ won. Are you claiming that the memorial book
takes precedence? Why? 'Because Takahashi wrote it?' Who do you
think wrote the manga?
And what kind of 'vested interest' would Aaron, Blade, or myself have
in ignoring evidence from the manga? The whole point of these debates
is to get to understand the manga better to be able to write more
accurate fanfiction.
At least, that's the point for me, and I think them. You've stated
that you just argue because you like arguing, so I won't speak for
you.
Hunter Kid
>>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
>
>You mean in your opinion. I think with what I just presented about the
>author and other information, you should be able to tell who wrote it.
As Bob and I have already pointed out, this is not necessarily the
case. And looking at the quality of the material therein, in my
opinion, it most certainly was _not_ authored by Takahashi.
>>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>>manga counts.
>
>It is a manga supplement. Based entirely on what happened in the manga,
>written by the author of the manga. It is certainly more reliable than
>you or I in its evaluations of the fighters.
No matter who wrote it, it's _not_ more reliable than the actual
material presented in the manga. The memorial book says Ranma won the
fight with Pantyhose Tarou in volume 23. Now pick up the actual manga
and look at volume 23, page 63. It cannot be disputed that Tarou won
the fight.
Bottom line is that the memorial book is inaccurate, not to just my
opinions, but to actual material in the source manga. And where it
conflicts, the memorial book is _wrong_.
Do you disagree with this?
>>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>>the reasons above.
>
>It was written by Takahashi. I have my evidence above.
Your evidence fails to prove your case, I'm afraid.
>You may feel
>free to dispute it, but I want the same quality of reference. You
>should have enough information to buy the book if you need.
>
>I note that you are ignoring primary evidence that you don't like.
The memorial book is not primary evidence. You are the only one here
who thinks it is. The manga is primary evidence. Where they
conflict, the manga takes precedence.
Hunter Kid
>>I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
>>post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
>>manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
>
>No, you claim that it is inaccurate because it disagrees with you and is
Oh, you know my motives better than I do, hm?
It disagrees with me. That is obvious.
But far more importantly, it disagrees with the _source manga_. (I
detailed some of this in another post, which you stated hasn't arrived
on your news spool yet.) Where it disagrees with the manga, the manga
takes precedence.
Do you disagree with this?
>put out by a more authoritative source than you are.
Oh, is it, now? I take all my examples, proofs, evidences, etc.
straight from the source manga. Seems to me that's a bit more
authoritative source than the memorial book.
>>In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
>>problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
>
>I'll have to wait until your post comes to my newsspool. BTW, it is
>100% from the manga, partially evidenced from the fact that it is put
>out under Shonen Sunday, not Fuji Television or Pony Canyon.
100% from the manga my ass. Explain the 'ring out' comment for the
Ryouga-Ranma ice match. There was no ring out in the manga, just the
anime.
>>I'm aware that it has Takahashi's name on it. But if the details are
>>as pathetically researched as the ones that you posted in your post, I
>>cannot believe that Takahashi actually wrote it.
>
>She wrote it. From the back of the book:
>Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book
>Series: Shonen Sunday Graphic
>Chosha (Author): Takahashi Rumiko
>Copyright: Takahashi Rumiko, June 6th, 1996
>Hakkousha (Publisher): Kawai Tsunekichi
>Company: Shogakkan
>ISBN: 4-09-101174-8
9_9
I know. It has Takahashi's name on it. I've said this before. I
doubt that she's the actual writer just because the details are so
pathetic.
>>Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
>>manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
>>the manga, it is wrong. Period.
>
>Tell me exactly where it conflicts with the manga. Volume, page, and
>panel. I think you will find that it is only your opinion it conflicts
>with.
I already have. Here, I'll repost my other post that never arrived on
your server:
--
>Ranma vs. Ryouga:
>Hibiki Ryouga:
> Style: Self styled
I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
tiger-style kung fu as well.
> Most powerful move: Shishihoukoudan and Bakusaitenketsu
?
Fair enough.
Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Ch'uan) kung fu.
Also, his arrogance.
>Round 1, indecisive.
--
Gregory Smith
>vig...@holly.ColoState.EDU (Gregory Smith) wrote:
>
>>>I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
>>>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>>>tiger-style kung fu as well.
>>
>>Just a small note; Choy Li Fut is Five a A (pardon, damn computer
>>has no backspace) is Five Animal Shao-lin in essence. Ryouga does nothing
>>(IMO) that resembles an animal style... and I've seen more than a little.
>
>have some training in tiger-style kung fu Look at Ryouga's hands in
>his first fight with Ranma - pretty clearly tiger claws. His emphasis
>on his strength, as well as his constant offensive,
>take-a-few-hits-then-pound-the-opposition-into-paste style of fighting
>are also very tiger-like.
>
>What style did you have in mind for Ryouga?
>
Tiger is also very sinewous and gainly, it springs and leaps and rolls and bats
It has a very animalistic feel to it. I'm not certain what style he is intended
to do, but Ryouga's style has always felt less than animal derived to me.
Five animal contains five animal styles, which feels pretty different from
what I see of Ryouga. My own experiences are from Tiger/Crane duet and Shantung
Black Tiger... both of which have very different feels as animal arts.
>>>Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
>>
>>Just a qualification here that might put a lot of argument in better
>>context... Mein Ch'uan is the old name for Tai (back key is very screwed)
>>Tai Chi Ch'uan. I learned the fact very recently from my Martial Artes master.
>
>You're _sure_ about that? I've never heard that before. The two
>styles don't even come from the same temple; Mien Ch'uan comes from
>the He Nan Si, Tai Chi Ch'uan comes from the Wu Dang Si.
Honan and Wudang communicated, there was very frequently cross-contamination of the arts that both taught... if this were not so, a grand master from Fukien would never have gotten hold of information from both in order to form the school
that I study in. My art also includes stuff from Hua shan, Omei Shan, Shantung and Kwangtung. Truth is, Tai Chi originated outside the temples altogether. I do not know the entire story yet, but I know that one name for the Tai chi that I study is Cotton fist... or Mein Ch'uan if you perfer. The name comes from the stateme
...scuse me... statement "soft as cotton, hard as Iron" which is a description
in as much of Tai Chi.
One thing I would like to point out in passing is that Chinese tend to quote
history from a variable point of view; one person will claim one truth and
someone else will claim something totally different. Really, the only point
that I've ever seen books agree upon about Chinese martial heretage is that the
temples existed and practiced martial arts. Otherwise, there's no consistant
source for what came from where because everybody tends to claim something different. The main reason I believe my master is because of the variety of art and the level of art that my school teaches. Hey, it's gotta come from somewhere;-)
>
>>In other words, consider very carefully before tying this technique to
>>someone like Tarou who is so obviously out of touch with anything vaguely
>>resembling centeredness (Tarou's motivation is his name, from my understanding,
>>which would not be an acceptible mopt (arg) motivator within Tai Chi logic for
>>fighting).
>
>From what I know of the two, however, the philosophies of Mien Ch'uan
>and Tai Chi Ch'uan are hugely different. I'm not seeing how they
>could possibly be one and the same. No disrespect intended to your
>martial arts master...but could you elaborate here? I'm curious.
>
Anand Chelian
Hunter Kid <gui...@mail.serve.com> wrote:
>ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Anand Chelian) wrote:
>
>>>I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
>>>post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
>>>manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
>>
>>No, you claim that it is inaccurate because it disagrees with you and is
>Oh, you know my motives better than I do, hm?
Sure. I'll show why below.
>But far more importantly, it disagrees with the _source manga_. (I
>detailed some of this in another post, which you stated hasn't arrived
>on your news spool yet.) Where it disagrees with the manga, the manga
>takes precedence.
Actually, I don't see where it disagrees with the manga, please look
at my refutations of your refutations below. It is mostly a matter
of opinion on where the fight ended, and I'll take Takahashi's opinion
over yours every time.
>Do you disagree with this?
If you can point out an inconsistency, then I'll have to go back, take
a look, and see if they can be reconciled. If they can, then the
reconciled position should be the right one because it takes into
account all primary source information. If they cannot be reconciled
to be internally consistent, then yes, the manga should take
precedence, it being what we are talking about. Now you have to show
me exactly why you think they are not consistent.
>>put out by a more authoritative source than you are.
>Oh, is it, now? I take all my examples, proofs, evidences, etc.
>straight from the source manga. Seems to me that's a bit more
>authoritative source than the memorial book.
You gave no cites, two examples, no proof, and your examples were
your evidence. Your examples didn't give me a volume, story, or
page. Your two examples seem to be a difference of opinion on
where the fight ended.
>>>In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
>>>problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
>>I'll have to wait until your post comes to my newsspool. BTW, it is
>>100% from the manga, partially evidenced from the fact that it is put
>>out under Shonen Sunday, not Fuji Television or Pony Canyon.
>100% from the manga my ass. Explain the 'ring out' comment for the
>Ryouga-Ranma ice match. There was no ring out in the manga, just the
>anime.
Ring out means that they leave the ring without finishing the match.
I just translated what it said. It did not say that they left the
stadium. And they did "ring out" because they both dove in after
Akane and stopped fighting. The next you see them is in the locker
room.
>>>I'm aware that it has Takahashi's name on it. But if the details are
>>>as pathetically researched as the ones that you posted in your post, I
>>>cannot believe that Takahashi actually wrote it.
>>She wrote it. From the back of the book:
>>Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book
>>Series: Shonen Sunday Graphic
>>Chosha (Author): Takahashi Rumiko
>>Copyright: Takahashi Rumiko, June 6th, 1996
>>Hakkousha (Publisher): Kawai Tsunekichi
>>Company: Shogakkan
>>ISBN: 4-09-101174-8
>9_9
>I know. It has Takahashi's name on it. I've said this before. I
>doubt that she's the actual writer just because the details are so
>pathetic.
Prove it please. It says specifically that she is the author. She
has the copyright, and it is from the company that published the manga,
not TV companies.
>>>Bottom line is that the memorial book is unnecessary, because the
>>>manga is self-consistent, and where the memorial book conflicts with
>>>the manga, it is wrong. Period.
>>Tell me exactly where it conflicts with the manga. Volume, page, and
>>panel. I think you will find that it is only your opinion it conflicts
>>with.
>I already have. Here, I'll repost my other post that never arrived on
>your server:
[Re: First post]
First things first, this is a translation, not an interpretation except
where my Japanese was not good enough, and it should still be 90+%
accurate. If you don't like the translation, you should find someone
to translate for you.
>>Ranma vs. Ryouga:
>>Hibiki Ryouga:
>> Style: Self styled
>I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>tiger-style kung fu as well.
Ummm... if you don't have any knowledge of the style, and that is not
what Takahashi states, what is your source for this claim?
>> Most powerful move: Shishihoukoudan and Bakusaitenketsu
>?
>The bakusai tenketsu isn't a powerful move (unless his opponent was,
>say, made of stone).
It has its uses. It can serve as a smoke screen, and if you have had
Bakusaitenketsu training, it will hurt your opponent more than you. It
can do an awful lot of damage if the other guy can't block or dodge.
>> Weakness: Extremely poor sense of direction
>That is not a weakness in a fight. In a fight, his weakness is his
>gullibility and his (comparative) lack of speed.
Could you point out where Ryouga is slow compared to Ranma when Ranma is
not explicitly using the Kachuutenshinamaguriken. Gullible I can understand.
Could you tell me how running away from his first fight with Ranma by
accident was not a weakness. Note that it does not say, "only weakness",
or "weakness in a fight".
>>1st announced fight, school grounds KO fight, no winner,
>> fight called on account of Akane.
>Fair enough.
>>2nd announced fight, ice match, no winner, double ring out.
>'Double ring out'? I confess you confuse me. Seems to me Ryouga won
>two or three times, since the stakes, after all, were 'whoever falls
>into the water first loses.'
They stopped fighting and left the ring without a clear victor being
determined. This was because they both went to rescue Akane. BTW, if
you think that "taoreru" means first touch of the floor loses, then
you need to go look up it's use. It usually deals with passing out or
collapsing. If you are going by the Viz translation, I would suggest
you stop.
>But I don't recall anyone ever leaving the ring, unless you're talking
>about the anime, in which case this discussion is pointless because
>the anime's total lack of consistancy.
This is entirely from the manga.
>>3rd announced fight, bakusaitenketsu, Ranma wins by KO.
>I view this as two fights, actually; Ranma forfeited the initial
>battle by running away. He won the second battle in the forest.
It is quite possible to view it as one fight. I view it as one fight,
most of the people I know view it as one fight, and apparently Takahashi
views it as one fight.
>>Ranma vs. P-chan, legendary happy face (don't feel like
>> translating, but the invincibility drawing), P-chan wins.
>I don't think this really counts. ;p
I translated, and that meant giving all of it so that you could get a
clear impression of what she said. I did not pick or choose.
>>4th announced fight, shishihoukoudan, Ranma wins.
>If you mean just the match at the end, no, Ryouga won that. Ranma was
>knocked out, remember? Akane distracting everyone kept this from
>being noticed, but Ranma _was_ knocked out. If you mean any of the
>others in this story, well, Ryouga won all those, too.
Apparently, one way to view the fight is that it is not over until
Ryouga is down for the count (count of 10 perhaps). And Ranma gets up,
hurt, and still takes Ryouga down. Since Takahashi says that Ranma won,
I would suggest that it is all one fight. Ranma is speaking, after
Cologne gets her comment in, Ryouga gets two sentences out, and Akane
gets her one sentence out. In fact, his line is: What is she talking
about...? Which means that he heard her previous line. He wasn't out
all that long, if he was ever completely unconscious.
As for the previous fights in the story arc, I agree that Ryouga won.
>>Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou:
>>PantsutoTarou:
>> Style: Straight power
>Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
Where do you come up with that? Do you have any experience with Mien
Chuan? Or are you just taking Blade's word for it? I am citing
Takahashi, you are citing...? Do you have any specific references?
>> Most powerful move: Octopus leg attack
>> Weakness: If he doesn't transform, he's weak
>Weak_er_ that his monster form, anyway. He's still powerful enough to
>beat either Ranma or Ryouga in a one-on-one match in his human form.
Where is this explicitly stated? Do you have a specific reference, or
are you going to take Blade at his word?
>>Ranma, Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse vs. PantstoTarou, won by
>> Ranma's Pantyhose falling star kick.
>This is true; however, I don't think this can be called a 'Ranma v.
>Tarou' fight, since Ranma had _lots_ of help.
It's not written down as a Ranma vs. Tarou fight. Please read, "Ranma,
Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse". Ranma was on the winning side.
>>Second match, Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou, octopus legs story,
>> Ranma wins by KO.
>No, Tarou won. Fairly clearly, actually; he bashed him with the smoke
>stack, had time to laugh at him, then knocked himself out.
Apparently, Takahashi views the fight as finishing when Tarou is down for
the count in 23.4.67.1, rather when both Tarou and Ranma have spiral eyes
two pages before. In fact, that's the view I take of it.
>>Nekohanten match, Ranma loses by Ryuuseihishou.
>>Onsen match, no winner, Herb withdraws.
>>Houraisan death match, Ranma wins.
>Again, this cannot properly be called a 'Ranma v. Herb' match, because
>Ranma had help. Lots of it. As in, he would clearly have died
>without help.
Here is your lots of help. It comes to two ki blasts deflected,
24.11.179.3-4 and 25.1.6.3, and fetching the Kaisuifuu so that Ranma
could return to male. The rest of it Ranma did by himself. Ryouga
and Mousse also benefited from Ranma's first Hiryuushotenha.
>>Ranma vs. Kumon Ryuu:
>>Kumon Ryuu:
>> Style: Saotome Ryuu Yamasenken (Kumon Ryuu)
>> Most powerful moves: Kijinraishuudan, Moukokaimonha
>> Weakness: Bad at lying
>This is not a combat weakness. His lack of speed and versatility is.
He's damn fast. His moves work almost all the time. How he is not fast
or versatile?
>>Round 1, indecisive.
>Round 1 is not indecisive. As Genma notes, Ranma was about to have
>his heart ripped out when he saved him.
That is not what Takahashi says. Ranma got distracted, and Ryuu gets one
hit in. That was the move that would have ripped his heart out. It
didn't. Ranma withdrew or was withdrawn. Either way, if Ranma hadn't
been distracted, he was landing all the blows, and was winning before
Ryuu got his one shot in.
>>Ranma vs. Konatsu Kenzan, double KO.
>Just a note here - I don't think 'Kenzan' is actually part of
>Konatsu's name. It's a title or something.
As far as I know it is a name. If it is a title, could you tell us what
it means, I would be genuinely interested in knowing. Or are you just
trying to nitpick?
>>This is a separate piece of my extended refutation of Blade's
>>position. It is just something that I would like considered before
>>people fall over themselves praising Blade when he claims someone
>>wins by being more skilled. I shall expand upon it if Blade ever
>>responds to these posts.
>Well, it's admirable that you've taken the time to type up something
>like this. However, a _lot_ of your details are incorrect; this not
>being my debate, I haven't taken the time to refute everything that's
>wrong with your post.
Could you tell me exactly what is wrong with them? I need it down to
the specific storyline and preferably page and panel. If it is a matter
of when the fights end, then that is one matter, if is a matter of you
disagreeing with the final outcome, then that is more important.
>Blade's been doing this for...what, five years?
He's been wrong for five years.
>Bottom line is that you need to look harder at and give a more honest,
>in-depth analysis of the manga before anyone's going to take this
>stuff seriously. (Correct the blatant errors first, such as saying
>that Tarou is 'weak,' or that Ranma the fights in volumes 20 and 32.
>Even a cursory glance reveals that these are incorrect.)
I never said Tarou was weak in monster form. I do say that he is weak
in human form (comparatively), and I am supported by Takahashi.
Could you please explain your statement about "that Ranma the fights in
volumes 20 and 32"? I cannot refute what you do not say.
>Also, BTW, you might want to drop the anime-only examples. They only
>serve to discredit you.
If you think there is anything in my examples that is not in the manga, or
is anime only, could you point it out? I can give you a volume and story
number reference for each of them.
Otherwise, I would suggest that you, in Blade's words, and I quote, "go
re-read the goddamn manga."
>George P. Masologites
Anand Chelian
>>>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>>>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
>>
>>You mean in your opinion. I think with what I just presented about the
>>author and other information, you should be able to tell who wrote it.
>As Bob and I have already pointed out, this is not necessarily the
>case. And looking at the quality of the material therein, in my
>opinion, it most certainly was _not_ authored by Takahashi.
Go buy the book, take a close look at it. Find where it references the
anime, and then tell me why it is not about the manga and not by
Takahashi.
>>>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>>>manga counts.
>>It is a manga supplement. Based entirely on what happened in the manga,
>>written by the author of the manga. It is certainly more reliable than
>>you or I in its evaluations of the fighters.
>No matter who wrote it, it's _not_ more reliable than the actual
>material presented in the manga. The memorial book says Ranma won the
>fight with Pantyhose Tarou in volume 23. Now pick up the actual manga
>and look at volume 23, page 63. It cannot be disputed that Tarou won
>the fight.
I say the fight ended a couple of pages later when Tarou is KO'd.
Or, if you want, it was mostly finished when Ranma lured Tarou into
disabling his tentacles by going into the chimney. What you are
disputing is when the fight ends. I do not deny that Tarou had an
advantage on 23..63 for enough time to get a laugh out. But if
Takahashi says the fight ends about two pages later, and I agree
with her, then Ranma won.
>Bottom line is that the memorial book is inaccurate, not to just my
>opinions, but to actual material in the source manga. And where it
>conflicts, the memorial book is _wrong_.
How is what I said above inconsistent with the source manga?
If you are going to claim that your opinion of when the fight ended
is the rock-solid, hard truth, then you really are confusing fact
with opinion.
>Do you disagree with this?
Yes, I state exactly my opinion on this in my other reply.
>>>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>>>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>>>the reasons above.
>>
>>It was written by Takahashi. I have my evidence above.
>Your evidence fails to prove your case, I'm afraid.
Then what would you consider proof that Takahashi wrote it? A signed
note from her? I cannot obtain that. You'd better tell me your
standard of proof. I have a feeling that it is something completely
ridiculous.
>>You may feel
>>free to dispute it, but I want the same quality of reference. You
>>should have enough information to buy the book if you need.
>>I note that you are ignoring primary evidence that you don't like.
>The memorial book is not primary evidence. You are the only one here
>who thinks it is. The manga is primary evidence. Where they
>conflict, the manga takes precedence.
It is a primary source. Not primary evidence, that was me being unclear.
Primary source means that it comes from the same source as was
responsible for the primary evidence.
>George P. Masologites | gui...@mail.serve.com
Aaron Peori
>
> I note that you are ignoring primary evidence that you don't like.
The Memorial Book is not primary evidence. It is secondary
evidence by the standards of evidence. It is a -guide- to
the Manga. Sure it was written by Takahashi (dubious but
I'll accept it) but that does not make it a Primary Source.
Let's say I write a series of manga, for about ten years.
Ten years later I have -forgotten- lots of little details
about the manga, and the reasons I drew that panel, and why
this was like that and so on. It happens. We, and Takahashi,
are only human afterall, we have limits. So I am asked to
got back and write a guide to it. I do so, I do so by
rereading the manga and -re-interpreting- the scenes. Sure I
was the one who wrote those scenes, but that makes my
interpretation of them no more valid than anybody elses. In
other words, the WORK (Ranma 1/2 the manga volumes 1-38) is
the Primary Source and the ONLY Primary Source. Everything
else, inlcuding what I have to say about it, is a secondary
source.
Once you put something down on paper and releaes it to the
public, it is beyond your control. ANY interpretation of the
events therein, as long as it does not contradict the facts,
is as valid as any others. Whether it be Takahashi's or my
own. No, I'm not saying I know more about the series than
her. I am saying that the fact that she wrote it makes her
no more qualified than me however. Why? Because she has
baises and I have biases and they are both just as profound.
-------------
Epsilon
Blade
>In article <7r3l5p$11...@drn.newsguy.com>, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>The Memorial Book ignores a large portion of the fights in the manga, and most
>>of what it says about the fights and fighters is utter bullshit.
>
>arguments matter in that case by default. They would only matter if you
>from the authors wishes.
Prove that Takahashi said it. I can prove it completely contradicts the manga
on a factual level, which indicates to me she did not.
>I also specifically state that it has all the important fights. Or what
>are considered important fights. If you want to go down to every time
By whom? The people who wrote it, who have about as much knowledge, apparently,
as the anime writers?
>that Akane mallets Ranma and count it as a fight, then I suppose I can
>oblige you, it'll just take a lot more time.
<roll eyes> And according to the memorial book, Kunou doesn't love Akane.
>>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>>manga counts.
>
>It is written by the same author, on the same subject as the manga. And it
Prove it.
>is not admissable because the author's opinion doesn't count? Or the author
That, BTW, is correct. The author's opinion -doesn't- count. If Takahashi said
that Ryouga is likely to murder Kasumi with an ice pick, she'd be wrong.
Only what she wrote and drew for the series counts, and the Memorial Book isn't
part of the series.
>is not in full consideration of the issues? In other words, you know better
>than something written with at least the permission of the author (and by
>people from the same culture even if it isn't by the author herself). Tell
>me Blade, where did you learn about evidence?
I've debated this point with better people than you, Chelian. Look it up.
>>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>>the reasons above.
>
>Are you sure you don't ignore evidence Blade? It says Rumiko Takahashi on
>the cover. I can look up the copyright further if you want. You can look
>it up yourself if you want.
<yawn> The interview was her. The "memories of illustrations" was her; both
sections say so. I sincerely doubt, as I said, that any of the rest was her,
not only because of its blatent inaccuracy, but because of the style in which it
was written, the large gaps in certain sections, and simply because it doesn't
seem to make sense, given the format of the book.
I could be wrong. But if I am, my point above stands. If it contradicts the
manga-and it does-the manga takes precedence.
If you don't like it, I really don't care.
Blade
Blade
>In article <37d6c3b1....@news.mindspring.com> gui...@mail.serve.com
>writes:
>>vig...@holly.ColoState.EDU (Gregory Smith) wrote:
>>>>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>>>>tiger-style kung fu as well.
>>>
>>>has no backspace) is Five Animal Shao-lin in essence. Ryouga does nothing
>>>(IMO) that resembles an animal style... and I've seen more than a little.
>>
>>I do not have first-hand experience with Choy Li Fut, however, I _do_
>>have some training in tiger-style kung fu Look at Ryouga's hands in
>>his first fight with Ranma - pretty clearly tiger claws. His emphasis
>>on his strength, as well as his constant offensive,
>>take-a-few-hits-then-pound-the-opposition-into-paste style of fighting
>>are also very tiger-like.
>>
>>What style did you have in mind for Ryouga?
>>
>
>Tiger is also very sinewous and gainly, it springs and leaps and rolls and bats
>It has a very animalistic feel to it. I'm not certain what style he is intended
>to do, but Ryouga's style has always felt less than animal derived to me.
>Five animal contains five animal styles, which feels pretty different from
>what I see of Ryouga. My own experiences are from Tiger/Crane duet and Shantung
>Black Tiger... both of which have very different feels as animal arts.
I'll defer that one to Aaron Peori, who knows much more about the style than
I do.
>>>>Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
>>>
>>>Just a qualification here that might put a lot of argument in better
>>>context... Mein Ch'uan is the old name for Tai (back key is very screwed)
>>>Tai Chi Ch'uan. I learned the fact very recently from my Martial Artes master.
>>
>>You're _sure_ about that? I've never heard that before. The two
>>styles don't even come from the same temple; Mien Ch'uan comes from
>>the He Nan Si, Tai Chi Ch'uan comes from the Wu Dang Si.
>
>Honan and Wudang communicated, there was very frequently cross-contamination of
>the arts that both taught... if this were not so, a grand master from Fukien
>would never have gotten hold of information from both in order to form the
>school
>that I study in. My art also includes stuff from Hua shan, Omei Shan, Shantung
>and Kwangtung. Truth is, Tai Chi originated outside the temples altogether. I do
>not know the entire story yet, but I know that one name for the Tai chi that I
>study is Cotton fist... or Mein Ch'uan if you perfer. The name comes from the
>stateme
>...scuse me... statement "soft as cotton, hard as Iron" which is a description
>in as much of Tai Chi.
Mien Ch'uan is NOT Tai Chi. Mien Ch'uan is its own art. I should know; I've
studied the damn style for years and practise it myself.
Trust me, it's what Tarou does. He has the stance, uses the moves and
philosophy, and the way his training has developed him screams out the style.
Blade
Anand Chelian
There is another possible interpretation: the Kakutou Cheerleading fight
is not important. In fact, if it isn't listed under a person, it's not
an important fight. The other categories I added are from the same
pages (except for the the kakutou cheerleading), along the bottom, and
they say, Ranma's miracles (I think). I added it because there was a
page on it later in the book, and it fit in with one of the categories.
I certainly do not consider it a very important fight. Contrary to
popular belief, Konjou Mariko is not a threat to Ranma's standing as
a great fighter. In fact, the reason she gave him such a challenge
was because the heart of kakutou cheerleading is not really fighting,
but supporting someone else.
Consider that a complete list of important fights need not exclude
interesting matches, that are not important. If you want a complete
listing of all fights, why don't you, Blade, Epsilon, and Hunter Kid
present one? Sure, it is a matter of semantics, I suppose, but I did
not claim that all fights listed were important ones.
>> It is a complete listing of what is in the section. Not a complete
>> listing of all fights. It should be what the author considers
>> important, otherwise, why would she include it in an incomplete list > of the fights.
> Because she enjoyed creating those ones the most? Or because those were
>the ones that appealed most to the eye of a committee, the ones they'd
>agreed to use in the space they'd allotted for such materials. Or one of
>so many other reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not they
>are the most important fights in the book, when it pertains to questions
>of fighting skill.
Go on. You only dig yourself deeper here. At this point, I think you
need to prove that it is not written by Rumiko Takahashi. I eagerly
await your proof.
>> I did not say that it was a list of all the fights.
> Exuse me. You suggested that it should be a list of all the important
>fights. And it missed one.
No, none of the ones that do not come under a name category are important
fights. Please go look at the book before you declare victory. The ones
at the bottom are interesting matches, the ones with the names of opponents
as the category header are the important ones.
>> > You count the Ranma vs. Picolet rematch as an important match, but
>> >you don't mention the match that necessitated the rematch. If Ranma
>> >hadn't been beaten, he wouldn't have felt the need to go through the
>> >nonsense that occured in that storyline, correct. Since he did, it's
>> >obvious that his initial loss was VERY important.
>> Was the initial fight any contest?
> No. Does it matter just because Ranma didn't have a chance?
>> It was obvious any of the other martial artists in the manga would
>> have lost to Picolet.
> True. What of it?
>> Why would it be important that Ranma lost the fight if he won the
>> fight where he would not have to marry Picolet?
> So all that matters is the final fight, is that it? Even if Ranma still
>owes the Chardin family payment for losing the initial match (that was
>his first-born daughter in the English version, by the way).
No, it wasn't. There is no payment discussed. They want payment for the
match. Ranma has not agreed to it. Soun is telling them not to swear
any of their children to the cause. This is from the Japanese manga, you
should be able to find it. No place does it state that the price of the
dinner is Ranma's first daughter.
If you wish to argue it... and you dismiss my sources. Please tell me
exactly where you find it in the Japanese version. Volume, story, page,
and panel. You can, for most practical purposes, ignore the Viz
translation. If you cannot understand the Japanese, I would suggest
finding someone who does.
If you are familiar with story telling, the first fight was an
introduction to the character. In fact, the fight falls under the
Martial Arts Sports section, and is not an important fight, neither
the first one nor the last one.
> In effect, that means that P-chan's victory (with the abdominal mark)
>over Ranma doesn't count either, because all that matters is that Ranma
>eventually got rid of it. You can't have it both ways.
It is listed as a win for P-chan. Theoretically, Ranma did not defeat
Ryouga, because Ryouga defeated himself. I'm not claiming it as a
victory for Ranma, now am I?
>> When considering whether a fight is important, you should consider
>> what's at stake as well.
> Ah! Then you are arguing Blade's case, "Ranma always wins when it
>counts the most." But let's ignore that for the moment.
No. When it counts is what makes it an important fight. If you want
to argue all fights, the please present a list of all fights with a
description of the fight and who you think won it.
> What you have said that avenging classmates and defending personal his
>personal honour were not important enough to qualify the initial match
>as an important fight. All that matters is what that Ranma would have to
>marry Picolet if he lost, according to you. But that was the stake, NOT
>the reason for the challenge. And the reason is no less important, the
>reason is why Ranma fought, NOT the stake.
Ranma wasn't defending his personal honor. He had nothing at stake other
than his pride, and that was after he accepted the challenge. After that,
he had his pride and his personal honor at stake. It looked more like he
was defending the Tendou daughter's than anything else really. After he
found out the stakes, then it becomes important.
Ranma accepts all sorts of stupid contests because he's challenged, or
because he feels Akane has been insulted, or any of a half a dozen other
challenges. That does not make each time he accepts a challenge an
important fight. If you claim it does, then you'd better do your
footwork and list *ALL* the fights and challenges.
>> > The general concensus, Mr. Chelian, seems to be that the Memorial
>> >book is considered a dubious material from which to base your > >arguments.
>> By whom? Hunter Kid, Aaron Peori, and Blade? They have a vested
>> interest in ignoring the evidence.
> What vested interest, may I ask?
It shows that the author disagrees with them. They have face to preserve.
To preserve face and credibility they need to discredit the author of the
work (Ranma 1/2 Memorial Book), who, I think I have shown, is the same as
the author of the manga.
That it "proves" them wrong? And where
>is my vested interest, Mr. Chelian? Because I too insist that this is a
>dubious source, yet you have used it in favour of one that is accepted
>by all other parties involved in this dispute. It's A source that can't
>be disputed - the manga.
> You have access to it, so use it.
I do use it, and in Hunter Kid's case, I have shown that it is a difference
of opinion about when the fight ends. I will definitely always take the
author's word over that of a secondary (at best) source (those using the
VIZ translation are tertiary sources at most).
If you want to show it dubious in it's description of the outcomes, you
have to go through and show how there is *NO* *POSSIBLE* interpretation
where the outcome listed by the author makes sense. If you cannot do
that, then the author's interpretation is correct one, and you are wrong
in your interpretation.
Please, go ahead, use your primary source to do just that. If you
cannot, please concede defeat and let Blade speak for himself.
>> I want acknowledgement that Rumiko Takahashi's opinion is the single
>> most important opinion out there. Where she says something, it goes.
> It may be the most important opinion, but it too can be challenged. I
>would be a fool to believe otherwise. Authors have been known to have
>faulty or biased knowledge of their own works - but that doesn't mean
>that their opinions aren't important.
It could, of course, mean that your opinions are faulty and biased. But
I suppose that is impossible. Quite frankly, the major problem is that
you lot like to end your fights early.
>> Otherwise, we are not talking about the manga Takahashi drew, we are
>> talking about the manga Blade drew. If Takahashi's opinion is not
>> relevant to the discussion, then I want a statement made by Blade on
>> the newsgroup to that effect.
> I don't think Blade has argued any such thing. After all, he insists
>that THE primary source be used for this debate, which means that he is
>deferring to her most accurate presentation of the facts. Anything that
>follows it is a matter of interest, but it is not THE source material.
> You've demonstrated that you have said material, so please stick to it.
It does not contradict the source material, as I have shown where Hunter
Kid said it does, and it is by the author. Therefore, it is the author's
opinion, and you are ignoring it. If you say that her opinion is wrong,
I want an explicit statement by you to that effect.
> Bob Macfie
Hunter Kid
>>>>I don't own it, but I have looked at it. And judging from your own
>>>>post, it's hugely inaccurate. Where it conflicts with the manga, the
>>>>manga wins out. Know why? Because we're _discussing the manga_.
>>>
>>>No, you claim that it is inaccurate because it disagrees with you and is
>
>>Oh, you know my motives better than I do, hm?
>
>Sure. I'll show why below.
Nothing you said below shows why you know my motives better than I do.
>>But far more importantly, it disagrees with the _source manga_. (I
>>detailed some of this in another post, which you stated hasn't arrived
>>on your news spool yet.) Where it disagrees with the manga, the manga
>>takes precedence.
>
>Actually, I don't see where it disagrees with the manga, please look
>at my refutations of your refutations below.
Did so. Responded.
>It is mostly a matter
>of opinion on where the fight ended, and I'll take Takahashi's opinion
>over yours every time.
Not in the ice rink match it isn't. The qualifications for winning
were 'you fall in the water, you lose.' Ranma fell in the water.
More than once. He lost.
In the fight in volume 23, the fight ended when Ranma got knocked out.
Tarou was still going. Ranma lost. There should be no point of
contention here.
>>Do you disagree with this?
>
>If you can point out an inconsistency, then I'll have to go back, take
>a look, and see if they can be reconciled. If they can, then the
>reconciled position should be the right one because it takes into
>account all primary source information. If they cannot be reconciled
>to be internally consistent, then yes, the manga should take
>precedence, it being what we are talking about. Now you have to show
>me exactly why you think they are not consistent.
I'm glad we can at least agree on the boundaries of argument here. ;p
>>>put out by a more authoritative source than you are.
>
>>Oh, is it, now? I take all my examples, proofs, evidences, etc.
>>straight from the source manga. Seems to me that's a bit more
>>authoritative source than the memorial book.
>
>You gave no cites, two examples, no proof, and your examples were
>your evidence. Your examples didn't give me a volume, story, or
>page. Your two examples seem to be a difference of opinion on
>where the fight ended.
Getting awfully nitpicky, aren't you? I was referring to how I
generally debate Ranma 1/2, not this specific post.
>>>>In short, if you can't respond to the post I made addressing the
>>>>problems in the MB, it's _wrong_.
>
>>>I'll have to wait until your post comes to my newsspool. BTW, it is
>>>100% from the manga, partially evidenced from the fact that it is put
>>>out under Shonen Sunday, not Fuji Television or Pony Canyon.
>
>>100% from the manga my ass. Explain the 'ring out' comment for the
>>Ryouga-Ranma ice match. There was no ring out in the manga, just the
>>anime.
>
>Ring out means that they leave the ring without finishing the match.
Exactly. And that _didn't happen_. Ryouga beat Ranma several times.
>I just translated what it said. It did not say that they left the
>stadium. And they did "ring out" because they both dove in after
>Akane and stopped fighting. The next you see them is in the locker
>room.
The fight technically ended long before that.
>>9_9
>
>>I know. It has Takahashi's name on it. I've said this before. I
>>doubt that she's the actual writer just because the details are so
>>pathetic.
>
>Prove it please. It says specifically that she is the author. She
>has the copyright, and it is from the company that published the manga,
>not TV companies.
Which does not mean that she was the author, only that she could have
been. The burden of proof rests on you.
>>I already have. Here, I'll repost my other post that never arrived on
>>your server:
>
>[Re: First post]
>
>First things first, this is a translation, not an interpretation except
>where my Japanese was not good enough, and it should still be 90+%
>accurate. If you don't like the translation, you should find someone
>to translate for you.
Ok.
>>>Ranma vs. Ryouga:
>>>Hibiki Ryouga:
>>> Style: Self styled
>
>>I understand it's Choy Li Fut, actually. I don't have any knowledge
>>of the style myself, although it seems to me he uses a bit of
>>tiger-style kung fu as well.
>
>Ummm... if you don't have any knowledge of the style, and that is not
>what Takahashi states, what is your source for this claim?
Misprint. Meant to say that I don't have any first-hand knowledge of
the style (never trained in it myself); I have read a couple books on
it (one-and-a-half, rather, never finished the second), seen some
websites, pictures, even watched a short video once. I say that's
what Ryouga does because it seems and looks like what Ryouga does.
I brought up tiger-style kung fu because I do have some first-hand
knowledge of it. Not much - I've practiced three tiger forms - but
enough to recognize it when someone's using it, and it seems like
Ryouga is, at least to some extent.
Also, because he's too skilled to be self-taught, IMO. If not Choy Li
Fut or tiger kung fu, what did _you_ have in mind?
>>> Most powerful move: Shishihoukoudan and Bakusaitenketsu
>
>>?
>
>>The bakusai tenketsu isn't a powerful move (unless his opponent was,
>>say, made of stone).
>
>It has its uses. It can serve as a smoke screen, and if you have had
>Bakusaitenketsu training, it will hurt your opponent more than you. It
>can do an awful lot of damage if the other guy can't block or dodge.
It has its uses, but it's not a powerful move. It's not even
especially useful as a fighting technique. The _training_ is useful,
but the technique itself is much less so.
>>> Weakness: Extremely poor sense of direction
>
>>That is not a weakness in a fight. In a fight, his weakness is his
>>gullibility and his (comparative) lack of speed.
>
>Could you point out where Ryouga is slow compared to Ranma when Ranma is
>not explicitly using the Kachuutenshinamaguriken.
Viz GN #1, p. 234-235. Ryouga is attacking Ranma and it doesn't look
like he has a chance in hell of hitting him. p. 237, Ranma easily
dodges his palm strike. Again on p. 238 (same exact attack it looks
like), 240, & 243. On p. 243-244, Ranma moves so fast that Ryouga
doesn't even have time to react before Ranma's flipped _through his
legs_, grabbed him, and slammed him face-first into the ground. p.
246-247, Ranma easily dodges Ryouga's kick then knocks him pretty far
into the air with his own. p. 249, Ranma dodges Ryouga's umbrella
thrust in midair and kicks him in the face. p.250, Ranma moves too
fast for Ryouga to react, again, and kicks him, sending them both
soaring over the fence.
And so on. Of course, none of these attacks _hurt_ Ryouga...but they
do demonstrate that Ranma is considerably faster than Ryouga is. In
fact, Ryouga never landed a single direct hit that entire fight.
>Gullible I can understand.
>Could you tell me how running away from his first fight with Ranma by
>accident was not a weakness.
But he doesn't get lost _during_ the fight, he gets lost in _between_
the fights. That makes it not a combat weakness.
>Note that it does not say, "only weakness",
>or "weakness in a fight".
But this is a fighting chart! It's pointless to list non-combat
weaknesses.
>>>2nd announced fight, ice match, no winner, double ring out.
>
>>'Double ring out'? I confess you confuse me. Seems to me Ryouga won
>>two or three times, since the stakes, after all, were 'whoever falls
>>into the water first loses.'
>
>They stopped fighting and left the ring without a clear victor being
>determined. This was because they both went to rescue Akane. BTW, if
>you think that "taoreru" means first touch of the floor loses, then
>you need to go look up it's use.
Ryouga meant that whoever fell into the water first loses. This is
obvious. Look at Viz GN # 3 p. 35 - Ryouga's image of his defeat is
not him knocked out - it's him falling into the water, turning into a
pig.
>It usually deals with passing out or
>collapsing. If you are going by the Viz translation, I would suggest
>you stop.
Oh? How come? It seems to be, by and large, fairly accurate.
>>But I don't recall anyone ever leaving the ring, unless you're talking
>>about the anime, in which case this discussion is pointless because
>>the anime's total lack of consistancy.
>
>This is entirely from the manga.
I beg to differ.
>>>3rd announced fight, bakusaitenketsu, Ranma wins by KO.
>
>>I view this as two fights, actually; Ranma forfeited the initial
>>battle by running away. He won the second battle in the forest.
>
>It is quite possible to view it as one fight.
It's definitely possible.
>I view it as one fight,
That's your right.
>most of the people I know view it as one fight,
Most of the people I know don't.
>and apparently Takahashi views it as one fight.
Apparently whoever wrote the memorial book views it as one fight. You
haven't proven that Takahashi wrote it.
>>>Ranma vs. P-chan, legendary happy face (don't feel like
>>> translating, but the invincibility drawing), P-chan wins.
>
>>I don't think this really counts. ;p
>
>I translated, and that meant giving all of it so that you could get a
>clear impression of what she said. I did not pick or choose.
Then how come you added a fight on to the list? Because the list was
incomplete? Why would Takahashi leave an important fight from her own
series off from a list like this, hm?
>>>4th announced fight, shishihoukoudan, Ranma wins.
>
>>If you mean just the match at the end, no, Ryouga won that. Ranma was
>>knocked out, remember? Akane distracting everyone kept this from
>>being noticed, but Ranma _was_ knocked out. If you mean any of the
>>others in this story, well, Ryouga won all those, too.
>
>Apparently, one way to view the fight is that it is not over until
>Ryouga is down for the count (count of 10 perhaps).
Yes, one way to view that fight is that it doesn't end until Ryouga is
down for the count. From an objective point of view, it makes more
sense to say the fight ended when _either_ of them was down for the
count...and in this case, that was Ranma. He was out for more than 10
seconds.
>And Ranma gets up, hurt, and still takes Ryouga down.
He didn't look particularly hurt. A little bruised, but nothing
major.
>Since Takahashi says that Ranma won,
>I would suggest that it is all one fight. Ranma is speaking, after
>Cologne gets her comment in, Ryouga gets two sentences out, and Akane
>gets her one sentence out.
But there is a _lot_ of thoughts. (Cologne's, Akane's, then
Ryouga's.) I'm not saying he was out for an hour or anything...but it
was over ten seconds. This is pretty obvious.
>In fact, his line is: What is she talking
>about...? Which means that he heard her previous line.
Yep. Still pretty clearly over 10 seconds, though.
Even if it wasn't, 10 seconds doesn't really matter. The point is
that he _was_ unconscious, and that means he lost.
>He wasn't out
>all that long, if he was ever completely unconscious.
He was. If he wasn't, why the hell would he have just been lying
there?
>As for the previous fights in the story arc, I agree that Ryouga won.
Glad to hear it. ;p
>>>Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou:
>>>PantsutoTarou:
>>> Style: Straight power
>
>>Pantyhose Tarou practices Cotton Fist (Mien Chuan) kung fu.
>
>Where do you come up with that? Do you have any experience with Mien
>Chuan?
Not first-hand. Read a book (forget the title; can look it up for you
if you want), looked at web sites, participated in a few discussions
about it. It seems to be a perfect description of Tarou's style.
Do _you_ have any experience with the style? If not, what style would
you assign to Tarou? It's definitely _something_, not just 'straight
power.'
>Or are you just taking Blade's word for it?
If you've been hanging around RAAF for very long, you'll find that I
don't take Blade's - or anyone else's - word for very much.
>I am citing
>Takahashi, you are citing...? Do you have any specific references?
Just my own limited, second-hand experience. But it _does_ fit very
well.
>>> Most powerful move: Octopus leg attack
>>> Weakness: If he doesn't transform, he's weak
>
>>Weak_er_ that his monster form, anyway. He's still powerful enough to
>>beat either Ranma or Ryouga in a one-on-one match in his human form.
>
>Where is this explicitly stated?
It's not 'stated,' it's obvious from the fact that he _does_ beat
Ranma in his human form. More than that, he completely humiliates him
in female form. In male-male matches, he's easily able to block
Ranma's much-vaunted amaguriken (vol. 18, p. 87), and flit to the side
fast enough so that Ranma completely misses (also p. 87). On p. 89,
he's able to kick Ranma out of midair with a roundhouse kick - female
Ranma is extremely fast, so this is a testament to his speed as well
as his strength (a roundhouse kick is not suited for kicking people
out of midair). He's also a lot tougher than Ranma (vol. 32, p. 29);
Rouge-ashura blasts them both with a huge lightning blast, and Ranma
is out cold while Tarou is still up and shouting. It's obvious he can
hit extremely hard when he kicks Ranma then tosses a barbell at him in
vol. 32, p. 32-33, knocking him out. It took two perfect shshi
houkoudans to do that.
He's never fought Ryouga human-human, but I can't possibly see how
Ryouga could beat him, since Tarou's even faster than Ranma, who
Ryouga has a _lot_ of difficulty hitting. And Tarou's tougher, so if
he did hit him, it would do less. And Tarou hits harder than Ranma,
so less attacks would be able to KO Ryouga. And Ryouga's gullible.
Tarou would have a field day with that.
Ryouga's shishi houkoudan would probably inflict some damage on Tarou
the first couple times he used it, but not enough to take him out.
>Do you have a specific reference, or
>are you going to take Blade at his word?
Just out of curiosity, why do you say this? Does anyone _ever_ take
Blade at his word? Seems like everyone carefully scrutinizes
everything he says and kicks him really hard if he ever makes the
slightest error, due to his reputation.
>>>Ranma, Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse vs. PantstoTarou, won by
>>> Ranma's Pantyhose falling star kick.
>
>>This is true; however, I don't think this can be called a 'Ranma v.
>>Tarou' fight, since Ranma had _lots_ of help.
>
>It's not written down as a Ranma vs. Tarou fight. Please read, "Ranma,
>Ryouga, Shampoo and Mousse". Ranma was on the winning side.
I know. I'm saying that this is crappy data for your percentage
chart.
>>>Second match, Ranma vs. PantsutoTarou, octopus legs story,
>>> Ranma wins by KO.
>
>>No, Tarou won. Fairly clearly, actually; he bashed him with the smoke
>>stack, had time to laugh at him, then knocked himself out.
>
>Apparently, Takahashi views the fight as finishing when Tarou is down for
>the count in 23.4.67.1, rather when both Tarou and Ranma have spiral eyes
>two pages before. In fact, that's the view I take of it.
Oh, you mean when Genma, Ranma, and Soun are all pounding on Tarou?
Doesn't it make just a _little_ more sense to end it when they were
fighting one-on-one and Ranma got knocked out? If not, why the hell
not? If you count it when it was three v. one, again, this is not
good data for your percentages chart.
>>>Nekohanten match, Ranma loses by Ryuuseihishou.
>>>Onsen match, no winner, Herb withdraws.
>>>Houraisan death match, Ranma wins.
>
>>Again, this cannot properly be called a 'Ranma v. Herb' match, because
>>Ranma had help. Lots of it. As in, he would clearly have died
>>without help.
>
>Here is your lots of help. It comes to two ki blasts deflected,
>24.11.179.3-4
A ki blast that would have killed him. That's lots of help. If my
opponent is swinging a sword at my throat while I'm helpless and
someone parries it for me, that's a shitload of help.
>and 25.1.6.3,
Without which Ranma would have been unable to return to male form.
Again, a _lot_ of help.
>and fetching the Kaisuifuu so that Ranma
>could return to male.
Again, a _lot_ of help. Ryouga brought Ranma the kaisuifuu twice,
BTW.
>The rest of it Ranma did by himself.
That is to say, he would be either dead or permanently stuck as a
woman (_Thy Outward Part_, anyone?) if Ryouga and Mousse hadn't
helped. That's a lot of help.
>Ryouga
>and Mousse also benefited from Ranma's first Hiryuushotenha.
No argument there.
>>>Ranma vs. Kumon Ryuu:
>>>Kumon Ryuu:
>>> Style: Saotome Ryuu Yamasenken (Kumon Ryuu)
>>> Most powerful moves: Kijinraishuudan, Moukokaimonha
>>> Weakness: Bad at lying
>
>>This is not a combat weakness. His lack of speed and versatility is.
>
>He's damn fast.
Damn fast, but comparatively slow. He has a lot of trouble blocking
the amaguriken. (Vol. 28, p. 25.) Ranma is able to dodge his punch,
slide under him, and kick him in the stomach (p. 45). He's _very_
quick with the gold rope binding soar...but comparatively slow
otherwise. Ranma is able to bind his head and start dragging him
before Ryuu can even react (p. 119-120).
>His moves work almost all the time.
Fairly often, not almost all the time. And that's not what I meant by
'versatile.' What I meant was that his entire selection of moves is
just a few attacks.
>How he is not fast
>or versatile?
As noted above...
>>>Round 1, indecisive.
>
>>Round 1 is not indecisive. As Genma notes, Ranma was about to have
>>his heart ripped out when he saved him.
>
>That is not what Takahashi says. Ranma got distracted, and Ryuu gets one
>hit in. That was the move that would have ripped his heart out. It
>didn't.
Because Genma interfered. As he, the creator of the technique, says,
Ranma _would_ have lost his heart.
>Ranma withdrew or was withdrawn. Either way, if Ranma hadn't
>been distracted, he was landing all the blows, and was winning before
>Ryuu got his one shot in.
'All the blows?' By the look of it, he'd hit Ryuu _once_. Ryuu was
forced backwards and struggling, but it doesn't look like any of the
amaguriken punches hit him anywhere except his arms.
>>>Ranma vs. Konatsu Kenzan, double KO.
>
>>Just a note here - I don't think 'Kenzan' is actually part of
>>Konatsu's name. It's a title or something.
>
>As far as I know it is a name. If it is a title, could you tell us what
>it means, I would be genuinely interested in knowing.
Frustratingly, I don't remember. It's some ninja-related thing, but I
don't think it's his surname. Anyone can lend me a hand here?
>Or are you just trying to nitpick?
Just making a note. Sorry I don't remember the details. ;p
>>>This is a separate piece of my extended refutation of Blade's
>>>position. It is just something that I would like considered before
>>>people fall over themselves praising Blade when he claims someone
>>>wins by being more skilled. I shall expand upon it if Blade ever
>>>responds to these posts.
>
>>Well, it's admirable that you've taken the time to type up something
>>like this. However, a _lot_ of your details are incorrect; this not
>>being my debate, I haven't taken the time to refute everything that's
>>wrong with your post.
>
>Could you tell me exactly what is wrong with them? I need it down to
>the specific storyline and preferably page and panel.
Perhaps I'll go back and make a more complete correction after this
debate is resolved. I think I'd crack if I had to respond to more
than one of these messages at a time. ;p
>If it is a matter
>of when the fights end, then that is one matter, if is a matter of you
>disagreeing with the final outcome, then that is more important.
The two seem to be hopelessly interrelated (vol. 23 Tarou fight, final
vol. 20 battle, ice rink battle).
>>Blade's been doing this for...what, five years?
>
>He's been wrong for five years.
How did I know you'd say that?
>>Bottom line is that you need to look harder at and give a more honest,
>>in-depth analysis of the manga before anyone's going to take this
>>stuff seriously. (Correct the blatant errors first, such as saying
>>that Tarou is 'weak,' or that Ranma the fights in volumes 20 and 32.
>>Even a cursory glance reveals that these are incorrect.)
>
>I never said Tarou was weak in monster form. I do say that he is weak
>in human form (comparatively), and I am supported by Takahashi.
You are supported by the _memorial book_. I've posted fairly
extensive cites from the manga above refuting it.
>Could you please explain your statement about "that Ranma the fights in
>volumes 20 and 32"? I cannot refute what you do not say.
Uh, I seem to have left out the word 'win' in between 'the' and
'fights.' And '32' should be '23.' Remind me to proofread. ;p
>>Also, BTW, you might want to drop the anime-only examples. They only
>>serve to discredit you.
>
>If you think there is anything in my examples that is not in the manga, or
>is anime only, could you point it out?
Two that I saw - the ice rink 'ring out' comment, which is currently
being debated, as well as the remark that Ryouga got lost during a
fight. He doesn't do this in the manga, but it _does_ happen in the
anime.
>I can give you a volume and story
>number reference for each of them.
Please do so, I'd be curious to see them.
>Otherwise, I would suggest that you, in Blade's words, and I quote, "go
>re-read the goddamn manga."
What, did you think I pulled all those cites from _memory_? ;p
Hunter Kid
>>>You mean in your opinion. I think with what I just presented about the
>>>author and other information, you should be able to tell who wrote it.
>
>>As Bob and I have already pointed out, this is not necessarily the
>>case. And looking at the quality of the material therein, in my
>>opinion, it most certainly was _not_ authored by Takahashi.
>
>Go buy the book, take a close look at it. Find where it references the
>anime, and then tell me why it is not about the manga and not by
>Takahashi.
Regretfully, I'm a broke student and can't afford to go out and buy a
book I know I don't like just for debating purposes. I addressed this
in my other post, though.
>>>>In any case, it is not admissible evidence. Only what actually happened in the
>>>>manga counts.
>
>>>It is a manga supplement. Based entirely on what happened in the manga,
>>>written by the author of the manga. It is certainly more reliable than
>>>you or I in its evaluations of the fighters.
>
>>No matter who wrote it, it's _not_ more reliable than the actual
>>material presented in the manga. The memorial book says Ranma won the
>>fight with Pantyhose Tarou in volume 23. Now pick up the actual manga
>>and look at volume 23, page 63. It cannot be disputed that Tarou won
>>the fight.
>
>I say the fight ended a couple of pages later when Tarou is KO'd.
But it had ceased to be Ranma v. Tarou by that time; it makes
absolutely no sense to say the fight didn't end until there.
>Or, if you want, it was mostly finished when Ranma lured Tarou into
>disabling his tentacles by going into the chimney. What you are
>disputing is when the fight ends.
How could it have ended there? The fight ended when the first of them
was knocked out, like any other fight without special qualifications
for victory. Why would you believe it ended elsewhere?
>I do not deny that Tarou had an
>advantage on 23..63 for enough time to get a laugh out. But if
>Takahashi says the fight ends about two pages later, and I agree
>with her, then Ranma won.
Sorry, but I find it utterly ridiculous to say the fight didn't end
until there. It ended when the first of them was knocked out - Ranma.
On p. 66-67, that was no longer even Ranma v. Tarou, it was Genma,
Soun, & Ranma v. Tarou, _and_ Tarou was jumped by the three of them,
_and_ Tarou was injured whereas Ranma, Soun, & Genma were not. What's
your basis (other that 'the memorial book says so') for saying the
fight didn't end until there?
>>Bottom line is that the memorial book is inaccurate, not to just my
>>opinions, but to actual material in the source manga. And where it
>>conflicts, the memorial book is _wrong_.
>
>How is what I said above inconsistent with the source manga?
Disputing when the vol. 23 fight ends is more disputing common sense
than the source manga. Yes, it's possible to claim that their battle
didn't end until p. 66-67. It's also possible to claim that their
battle doesn't end until vol. 32 when Tarou knocks Ranma out with a
barbell. It's also possible to say it never ends at all.
A fight ends when one of the fighters submits or is made unable to
fight. This is pretty standard.
>>>>I don't know if that section, or any of the book, was specifically written by
>>>>Takahashi-I sincerely doubt it-but even if it was, it still doesn't matter, for
>>>>the reasons above.
>>>
>>>It was written by Takahashi. I have my evidence above.
>
>>Your evidence fails to prove your case, I'm afraid.
>
>Then what would you consider proof that Takahashi wrote it? A signed
>note from her? I cannot obtain that. You'd better tell me your
>standard of proof. I have a feeling that it is something completely
>ridiculous.
Basically, you'd need something like a signed note from her to
convince me that something with examples so poorly researched was
actually written by Takahashi. I simply refuse to believe it
otherwise because it doesn't make sense.
>>>You may feel
>>>free to dispute it, but I want the same quality of reference. You
>>>should have enough information to buy the book if you need.
>
>>>I note that you are ignoring primary evidence that you don't like.
>
>>The memorial book is not primary evidence. You are the only one here
>>who thinks it is. The manga is primary evidence. Where they
>>conflict, the manga takes precedence.
>
>It is a primary source. Not primary evidence, that was me being unclear.
>Primary source means that it comes from the same source as was
>responsible for the primary evidence.
But, as I have pointed out, it conflicts in various places with the
primary evidence. That throws the whole book into question,
_including_ whether or not it is even a primary source.