Spielburg and Bluth
Eric J. Henwood-Greer
I have a few questions concerning Bluth's partnership with Spielburg...
I knwo he was executive producer for AMERICAN TAIL and LAND BEFORE TIME
(with Lucas)... But what exactly does that mean? Bluth still seemed to
have as much control on these films by his credits, as producer (with
Goldstone and Pomeroy), director and designer of characters among other
things, so what exactly did Spielburg do with the project? How was he,
or Lucas, involved? It seems to me for especially TAIL he got quite a
bit of unfair credit that Bluth didn't... Also why did him and Bluth
seperate?
Also I was quite disapointed with TAIL's sequel... The best thing about
it was the score adn songs 9that were great, and by TAIL's composer), but
otherwise... I don't usually like sequels anyways, especially for this
film as once they're in New york it makes no since for them to move
again... And I didn't like how so many characters were missing and
especially how the whole thing that I (and many others) liked most about
TAIL was how it was dramatic and often (sometimes a bit too much) very
sentimental... A real good story, but for the sequel they took away all
of tis' feel and made it a raucous comedy! Also could bluth have legally
not allowed Spielburg to make it? I mean he *did* desing the original
characters, etc...
Anyways, for those qho say that the reason those bluth films were good
was due to Spielburg I'd like to show them TAIL 2 and especially WE'RE
BACK... (they have good animation and good scores, but the plots mainly
for the later is SOO muddled)... That's another thing... Spielburg
usually has a good feel for plot, so why did WERE BACK have such a bad
onewith Spielburg dproducing?
Eric
Nefaria
minute-long
beautiful but violent sequence in which Littlefoot's mother was killed by
another dinosaur. Don decided the reins were too tight and left on his
own to
make some pretty bad stuff afterwards. Wonder what it would have been
like
if he'd stayed. Dreamworks SKG could probably use him.
TTHUNDERR
when your the boss. Speilburg was responsible for leica reel approvals and
Don was always having to fly to London to meet with Steven and George
Lucus. Speilburg was the mood man ,George was the plot adviser and Don was
the slave artist. An explanation of the whole situation would take a while
and I am too pooped at 2.13 am to do it. By the way , the third producer
was Gary Goldman not Gladstone.
Glenn Saunders
: Don was under Stevens control and as any employee knows , its much nicer
You come off seemingly as an expert, but you have a big spelling problem,
dude.
TTHUNDERR
>dude.
Come see me at 3 am when I write my threads, I don't dance well at that
time either.......dude.
TTHUNDERR
This is a revised version with the correct spelling for Glenn Saunders.
: Don was under Steven's control and as any employee knows , its much
nicer
: when your the boss. Spielberg was responsible for leica reel approvals
and
: Don was always having to fly to London to meet with Steven and George
: Lucus. Spielberg was the mood man ,George was the plot adviser and Don
was
: the slave artist. An explanation of the whole situation would take a
while
: and I am too pooped at 2.13 am to do it. By the way , the third producer
: was Gary Goldman not Gladstone.
I made one spelling mistake and that puts my comments in doubt? Spielberg
is also spelled wrong on the thread title. I only got to chat with him
and I never asked how he spells his name. Silly me! I guess that makes me
........................... imperfect! Gee , I wish I was more like
Glenn.
Chance
: The mortal TTHUNDERR wrote:
: : Don was under Stevens control and as any employee knows , its much nicer
: : when your the boss. Speilburg was responsible for leica reel approvals and
: : Don was always having to fly to London to meet with Steven and George
: : the slave artist. An explanation of the whole situation would take a while
: : and I am too pooped at 2.13 am to do it. By the way , the third producer
: : was Gary Goldman not Gladstone.
: You come off seemingly as an expert, but you have a big spelling problem,
: dude.
Wow. Someone takes the time to write in answer to a poster's question at
2:13 in the morning, likely barely on speaking terms with the keyboard,
and gets a Net detention as a reward? Why is is that someone with
information that didn't make it to "Entertainment Tonite" always manages
to earn comments like "come off seemingly as an expert", rather than a
simple "thanks, I didn't know that"?
--
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"Of course it has boogers in it. It's got kid-type humour" - John K. in TVG
--
"Naaaah...just make them cat aliens." - Executive 'creative input' at H-B
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Glenn Saunders
: I made one spelling mistake and that puts my comments in doubt? Spielberg
: is also spelled wrong on the thread title. I only got to chat with him
: and I never asked how he spells his name. Silly me! I guess that makes me
: ........................... imperfect! Gee , I wish I was more like
Stevie seemingly gets off on the placement of his name on every title he
is involved with even when it is only to fund it, and yet you seem to
have gone through life not realizing he doesn't spell his name -burg. If
you are going to speak authoritatively, don't make stupid spelling
mistakes related to the subject matter. A typo is one thing..
TTHUNDERR
>is involved with even when it is only to fund it, and yet you seem to
>have gone through life not realizing he doesn't spell his name -burg. If
>you are going to speak authoritatively, don't make stupid spelling
>mistakes related to the subject matter. A typo is one thing..
Look you pathetic little creep. My misspelling of one word doesn't
constitute ''huge spelling mistakes''. Your anal analysis of my thread
only means you have nothing of value to add and that you are taunting me
for fun. You obviously have no idea that it is not your job to be the
''spelling princess'' in this newsgroup . You don't validate or
invalidate anyone's posts. Yes, I have gone through life without realizing
that it was spelled ''berg''. While you were sitting in a corner drooling,
reading titles and credits over and over , I spent 16 years working on
features as a senior animator. I now am animating on ''Hunchback'' at
Disney . Now really, who is the stupid one. Listen more, open your mouth
less.
Chance
: The mortal TTHUNDERR wrote:
: Stevie seemingly gets off on the placement of his name on every title he
: is involved with even when it is only to fund it, and yet you seem to
: have gone through life not realizing he doesn't spell his name -burg. If
: you are going to speak authoritatively, don't make stupid spelling
: mistakes related to the subject matter. A typo is one thing..
Okay. This is perhaps between these two guys, but here's a little tidbit
of general information. Did you know that Ralph Bakshi can't spell
properly? S'right. Under Mr. Saunders' rules we are to immediately
consider the man ignorant in everything he does, immediately dismiss his
entire body of work to date as irrelevant because his comments on it
jammed in the spell-checker, and has evidently gone through life not only
failing to realize the proper spelling of the word "Tytla", but repeating
the spelling mistakes of others in what can only be considered the
spelling equiavalent of the Nuremberg Trials.
"A typo is one thing...."
Yes. It is. A small thing. An insignificant thing. And one that, if
given its proper place in the grand scheme of things, wouldn't have
prompted such an off-topic waste of bandwidth on a group where people are
generally respected for what they say, and not how they type it.
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Listen son...I don't give a cahoots whether Rock'n'Roll _is_ changing the
world. It means nothin' to me but dollars and cents..."
--Elvis manager Col. Tom Parker, waving a wad of 100's at the idealistic.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Glenn Saunders
: prompted such an off-topic waste of bandwidth on a group where people are
On the net, ASCII rules. Don't be surprised if people judge
character based on how you writeAnd it doesn't surprise me that Bakshi
can't spell. I've never been impressed with his intelligence-level; he
seems to be the product of braincell-popping drug experiements gone wrong.
Chance
: The mortal Chance wrote:
: : prompted such an off-topic waste of bandwidth on a group where people are
: : generally respected for what they say, and not how they type it.
: On the net, ASCII rules. Don't be surprised if people judge
: character based on how you writeAnd it doesn't surprise me that Bakshi
!!^^^^^^^^^^^!!
: can't spell. I've never been impressed with his intelligence-level; he
: seems to be the product of braincell-popping drug experiements gone wrong.
Judge Saunders, the Defence rests.
TTHUNDERR
>character based on how you writeAnd it doesn't surprise me that Bakshi
>seems to be the product of braincell-popping drug experiements gone
>wrong.
Ok, now you have slandered Mr. Bakshi. No one cares who you are impressed
by. You have done nothing and he has created art. You say that ''animators
do not need to be intellegent, just talented''. Yet you seem to not to
have either quality. As for judging intellect by spelling, you are a prime
example why this theory does not hold true. I have no idea what you have
against artists ,but, excuse me, were you unaware that this group is just
filled with artists? And please tell us all what great accomplishment you
have made that allows you to sit in judgment of anyone?
Bill Newkirk
>Ok, now you have slandered Mr. Bakshi. No one cares who you are impressed
>by. You have done nothing and he has created art.
Bakshi certainly has created commerical product..but i don't know if i
might be moved enough to call it "art". His stuff has always struck me
as pretentious and lacking finesse. More novel than truly unique...that sort
of thing.
Bill Newkirk WB9IVR The Space Coast Amateur Technical Group
Melbourne, FL duty now for the future of amateur radio
Lombardi's 1st Law of Business:
Companies succeed in spite of their best effort. If they succeed at all.
TTHUNDERR
Though I think it just repeats what Steve said I am posting it anyway.
Depends wether you judge film making by just animation alone. I dont see
what the sound has to do with it, since it was on a par with most sound
from that day. If you think that film should be judged on how much money
you spend then you can count out 97% of all animated film because only
Mega studio's have the kind of budgets you admire. You can call Bakshi
cheap if you want but his early films were effective for the budget. Now I
want you to name all the adult oriented animated films that you can. What
? Can't think of any. Now you know why they were milestones.
Stephen W. Worth
>Bakshi certainly has created commerical product..but i don't know if i
>might be moved enough to call it "art". His stuff has always struck me
>as pretentious and lacking finesse. More novel than truly unique...that sort
>of thing.
Hello Bill,
FRITZ THE CAT, HEAVY TRAFFIC, COONSKIN and WIZARDS were all inducted into
the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art in New York.
Regardless of your definition of the term, I think you'd have to admit
that Bakshi's early personal films certainly qualify as "art".
I personally believe that Bakshi made more of an impact on the current
state of animation than any other living animator. It is hard to
underestimate the importance of his first few features on the business. He
was the first to break out of the "kiddie genre" and explore more adult
and controversial themes. His influence can be seen on many of the current
adult oriented animated features and TV shows. It's also important to
remember that Bakshi made his greatest films during the lowest ebb of the
animation industry, the 1970's. There weren't many studios producing
animated features of any type at that time, and Bakshi was able to put out
fantastic independent films for very little money.
I've heard a lot of people complain about Bakshi's story structure, but in
my opinion, the construction of his stories is very carefully analized,
utilizing contrasting episodic sequences building in a non-linear fashion.
This sort of approach might be common in live action films like RAGING
BULL and MEAN STREETS, but I can't think of another animation director
(with the possible exception of Richard Williams) who would be brave
enough to attempt to tell a story in this way.
Your evaluation is certainly correct for the later commercial rotoscope
pictures, but Bakshi's legacy in animation goes much further than what you
see in LORD OF THE RINGS or FIRE AND ICE. In addition to his fiercely
personal early animated features, Bakshi also redefined Saturday Morning
television with his landmark show, MIGHTY MOUSE: THE NEW ADVENTURES.
Without MIGHTY MOUSE paving the way for a wilder, more adult type of
animated series, there might not have been REN & STIMPY, TINY TOONS or THE
SIMPSONS.
As for lacking finesse... Bakshi employed some of the finest artists who
ever worked in the business on his films and television shows, not the
least of which being Irv Spence (MGM), Virgil Ross (WB), Ambi Paliwoda
(Disney), Mike Maltese (WB), John Sparey (FILM ROMAN), John Kricfalusi
(SPUMCO), etc... etc... etc... Although many people who have worked for
Ralph comment about how hard it is to work with the man, most of them will
also admit that under Bakshi, they produced some of their finest work.
Just look at the films themselves. They are not crass or cheap. They are
challenging and real, with much more in common with Martin Scorcese than
Steven Spielberg or Don Bluth.
See ya
Steve
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Stephen W. Worth Animation Art
Vintage Ink & Paint Restoration, Authentication
swo...@vintageip.com Appraisal and Sales
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On the WWW at: <URL: http://www.earthlink.net/~sworth/>
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Bill Newkirk
>Regardless of your definition of the term, I think you'd have to admit
>that Bakshi's early personal films certainly qualify as "art".
well, in an L. Ron Hubbard sort of way, yes i'd agree. but i have no craving
to see the "art" again. I don't think that's the sort of emotional response
Ralph really really wants. He's got some technical expertise and he can get
some emotional reaction, but for a lot of people it's not even something
they would bother to try.
it's like Michael Jackson might have a big splashy career, but Pink Floyd's
Dark Side of the Moon will be selling long after MJJ is dead and gone. It may
well be the first "Rock Classical" work. There's something about Bakshi's
work that screams "Transistory!" and just sucks all the entropy into the
film. Meanwhile, a certainly quick and dirty film like "Bambi Vs. Godzilla"
may well be with us into the 22nd century...
>remember that Bakshi made his greatest films during the lowest ebb of the
>animation industry, the 1970's. There weren't many studios producing
>animated features of any type at that time, and Bakshi was able to put out
>fantastic independent films for very little money.
and he was also free of serious competition...
>Without MIGHTY MOUSE paving the way for a wilder, more adult type of
>animated series, there might not have been REN & STIMPY, TINY TOONS or THE
>SIMPSONS.
i dunno about the connection of MM to R&S, TT or Simpsons other than there
were a bunch of guys doing similar stuff, some even worked for/with each
other. Certainly the new Mighty Mouse's attracted a lot of loonies. if not for
Ralph B. someone would have done something like he did....lotsa people
worked on making a "telephone" - but Bell got done first...but outside of the
"makes x-rated cartoon" label, i can't say i see Ralph Bakshi being remembered
for much else.
>As for lacking finesse... Bakshi employed some of the finest artists who
>ever worked in the business on his films and television shows, not the
..and too many cooks spoil the broth?
>also admit that under Bakshi, they produced some of their finest work.
that's sad.
>Just look at the films themselves. They are not crass or cheap. They are
the only one i haven't seen out of the pile was Coonskin and i have seen
excerpts of that one. ehhh.
>challenging and real, with much more in common with Martin Scorcese than
>Steven Spielberg or Don Bluth.
i think Spielburg and Bluth hit and get on base more than a sultan of swat
like a Scorcese or Bakshi does...
TTHUNDERR
while they admired him they would never let it be Ralphs type of film.
They just wanted his name.
Wildcard
I've just seen "Heavy Traffic." Bakshi definitely tried to shock, but I
don't think he meant it to be regarded as an "art" movie.
I think he wasn't very good at plotting, and people mistook this for
"art." I agree that I don't think Bakshi is going to be remembered,
except by other animators, unless he does something amazing soon. He
hasn't improved since "Heavy Traffic," in fact, in almost every way,
he's got worse. "Cool World" has the same problems with plotting, the
technical problems with the sound that "Heavy Traffic" did, and then it
has a half dozen other problems, too.
What is amazing about Bakshi is how promising he was, and how little he
has delivered. How many people have written and directed a full length
movie by the age of 25? And when this exclusive club meets, will people
like Steven Spielberg and Orson Wells let Bakshi use the front door?
No, I don't think Bakshi succeeded in his early days through lack of
competition. He went to producers and sold his work to them, at a
time when they weren't inclined to bankroll animation-- that's a feat in
itself. He succeeded on his merits, and now I think he's failed on
his flaws. He never got better at plotting. His sound work has always
been incompetent (his characters hardly sound like they're really
conversing, and the tones sound muffled). Other things have gotten
worse. The animation in "Cool World" looks crude by comparison.
As much as I hated "Cool World," I really loved "Heavy Traffic." I
can't think of another movie that shows racial, sexual, and family
problems just that way, the way a 22-year-old trapped in the middle of
them would see them. And the movie is charged with a lot of pent up
violence and lusts. He tried to affect all this in "Cool World," but he
doesn't have it anymore. Furthermore, if anybody wanted me to explain
the '70s, (big if there, huh?) I would tell them to watch "Heavy
Traffic."
Stephen W. Worth
(Wildcard) wrote:
Hi Wildcard,
>I've just seen "Heavy Traffic." Bakshi definitely tried to shock, but I
>don't think he meant it to be regarded as an "art" movie.
>I think he wasn't very good at plotting, and people mistook this for
>"art."
At that point, Bakshi was making small personal films that reflected
the world he knew from growing up in the Brownsville district of
Brooklyn. As an effective personal statement, I would consider it art
myself, but that's probably more of a semantic difference based on our
differing definitions of the word "art"... Bakshi is definitely one of the
finest artists I've ever met. He is a serious painter and sculptor as
well as an accomplished character designer and animator.
(I would suggest that you look at the Malcom the Cockroach sequence in
Coonskin and see if you don't think that it might qualify as art...)
>"Cool World" has the same problems with plotting, the
>technical problems with the sound that "Heavy Traffic" did, and then it
>has a half dozen other problems, too.
I worked on "Cool World" and I can tell you that there were a million
problems with the film from the start, not all of them within Ralph's
control. But that's a very long story and not a particularly pretty one.
>What is amazing about Bakshi is how promising he was, and how little he
>has delivered. How many people have written and directed a full length
>movie by the age of 25?
How many animation directors have produced nine animated features?
(seven of which were produced in a single decade) Commercial success
has eluded him, but I would much rather see a new Bakshi film as bad
as it might be than a new Bluth film... But that's just my tastes I guess...
Also remember Ralph's accomplishments in television... the Mighty Heroes,
Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures, etc. He has had some of the biggest
failures in the animation business, but he always comes back with
something completely different and fresh. I've got to hand it to him for
that.
>And when this exclusive club meets, will people
>like Steven Spielberg and Orson Wells let Bakshi use the front door?
Bakshi has received numerous honors from his fellow animators for his
work, not the least of which being a lifetime acheivement award from
ASIFA-Hollywood's Annie Awards. He uses the front door where ever he
goes.
>His sound work has always
>been incompetent (his characters hardly sound like they're really
>conversing, and the tones sound muffled).
On the early films, Bakshi would go out into the bars and streetcorners
in Harlem with a potable cassette deck looking for interesting
personalities. He would give them a thumbnail idea of what the action
was in the scene, then he would just let them improvise, using their own
dialects and experiences to give life to the characters. Many of these people
were not actors, and they were not recorded in a recording studio. That's
why the delivery varies and the sound quality is often muffled. But this
technique brought a lot of the realism and bite to his characters. I doubt if
you would have gotten the same effect if you would write a script and give
it to an actor to read in a sound proof booth.
Bakshi constructed his early pictures on a theme rather than with a script
this is what gives his films that disjointed episodic feeling to the plot, but
it also gives them their spontaneous life and gritty insightfulness...
>I really loved "Heavy Traffic." I
>can't think of another movie that shows racial, sexual, and family
>problems just that way, the way a 22-year-old trapped in the middle of
>them would see them. And the movie is charged with a lot of pent up
>violence and lusts.
I agree... I'm a big fan of Coonskin (aka Street Fight) too...
MICHELLE HASS
In <sworth-3108...@sworth.earthlink.net>,
swo...@vintageip.com (Steven W. Worth) writes:
SWW>>Regardless of your definition of the term, I think you'd have to
SWW>admit that Bakshi's early personal films certainly qualify as "art".
SWW>>Without MIGHTY MOUSE paving the way for a wilder, more adult type
SWW>>of animated series, there might not have been REN & STIMPY, TINY
SWW>>TOONS or THE SIMPSONS.
BN>From: wnew...@iu.net (Bill Newkirk)
BN>i dunno about the connection of MM to R&S, TT or Simpsons other than there
BN>were a bunch of guys doing similar stuff, some even worked for/with each
BN>other. Certainly the new Mighty Mouse's attracted a lot of loonies.
Listen. Ralph Bakshi gave people like John Kricfalusi and Jim Smith the
first chance to be themselves in the animation industry that they ever
got. Before then, both John K. and Jim Smith were going from SatAM gig
to SatAM gig, bemoaning the fact that the animation industry was geared
towards pushing the crap out cheap and not into making funny,
high-quality animated shows that appealed not only to kids but to adults
as well. MM:TNA was the first time these talented gentlemen who went on
to turn TV animation on its ear with Ren & Stimpy got a chance to be
the talented, irreverent and funny cartoonists they were and are.
Bakshi might not be the most pleasant person in the world. But he's done
a lot to advance adult-oriented animation during his career.
He deserves a great deal of respect.
--.\\<-H-- MHas...@aol.com/michel...@ledge.com
* SLMR 2.1a * Go away, we're like, closed or something. -- Butt-Head
Chance
: film. Meanwhile, a certainly quick and dirty film like "Bambi Vs. Godzilla"
: may well be with us into the 22nd century...
Be afraid. Be very afraid....
: >Without MIGHTY MOUSE paving the way for a wilder, more adult type of
: >animated series, there might not have been REN & STIMPY, TINY TOONS or THE
: >SIMPSONS.
: i dunno about the connection of MM to R&S, TT or Simpsons other than there
: were a bunch of guys doing similar stuff, some even worked for/with each
: other. Certainly the new Mighty Mouse's attracted a lot of loonies. if not for
The "connection" is explained by examining the ranks of the "loonies".
"The New Adventures of Mighty Mouse" had John Kricfalusi (R&S, Jimmy,
George), Tom Minton (TTA, ANIMX, FRKZD), and represented the first job
for Jim Reardon (based largely on the strength of a certain CalArts reel)
who undoubtedly took as much of what he practised in "Mighty" to "The
Simpsons" as the others did to their more recent work.
: >As for lacking finesse... Bakshi employed some of the finest artists who
: >ever worked in the business on his films and television shows, not the
: ..and too many cooks spoil the broth?
Yes, but many of the cooks tend to hold calculators as opposed to pencils.
: >also admit that under Bakshi, they produced some of their finest work.
: that's sad.
I think the artists would differ with you. One of the "Mighty" crowd
counts among the highlights of his career those occasions where he's had
the chance to revive a classic character. John used a lot of what he
learned on "Mighty" for R&S - consciously or otherwise. Reardon's
already keen sense of timing at the CalArts stage was further refined by
"Mighty" for "The Simpsons". I don't find any of this "sad" at all.
--
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"Using my amazing powers of intellect, I've concluded that life was more fun
when I was stupid...at least there were more TV shows to watch..."
"Monty" from the daily strip "Robotman"
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