Did "Aladdin" rip off "The Thief and the Cobbler"?
Greywizard
A week ago, I bought a copy of "The Thief and The Cobbler". Until
Miramax releases the workprint of Richard Williams' masterpiece, we can
only see this mangled version. And since Miramax is an affiliate of
Disney, and Disney likes to kill animation from other sources, I bet
that Miramax will never release it. Look at their web site
(http://www.miramax.com) - they don't even list the movie in their movie
list!
Anyway, watching it I remembered hearing rumors that Disney animators
stole elements of this and put them in "Aladdin". There are some
striking similarities - the design of the villain, both villains having
a bird sidekick, among other things. I have also heard that some
animators who worked for Richard Williams went to Disney and took his
ideas into "Aladdin"
Does anyone have any information about any of this?
Stephen W. Worth
In article <331dc...@news.pinc.com>, greyw...@coastnet.com
(Greywizard) wrote:
> Anyway, watching it I remembered hearing rumors that Disney animators
> stole elements of this and put them in "Aladdin". There are some
> striking similarities - the design of the villain, both villains having
> a bird sidekick, among other things. I have also heard that some
> animators who worked for Richard Williams went to Disney and took his
> ideas into "Aladdin"
>
> Does anyone have any information about any of this?
The story I heard was that when Richard Williams did Roger
Rabbit, he hoped it would lead to Disney financing the
completion of Theif and the Cobbler. After Roger Rabbit
was completed, Williams screened the uncompleted work
print for the Disney brass. They quietly passed on the
project. Soon after they announced Aladdin was in
production.
See ya!
Steve Worth
big...@spumco.com
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Jo Jurgens
In article <bigshot-0503...@news.ktb.net>, big...@spumco.com
(Stephen W. Worth) wrote:
> In article <331dc...@news.pinc.com>, greyw...@coastnet.com
> (Greywizard) wrote:
>
> > Anyway, watching it I remembered hearing rumors that Disney animators
> > stole elements of this and put them in "Aladdin". There are some
> > striking similarities - the design of the villain, both villains having
> > a bird sidekick, among other things. I have also heard that some
> > animators who worked for Richard Williams went to Disney and took his
> > ideas into "Aladdin"
> >
> > Does anyone have any information about any of this?
The supervising animator on Jafar, Andreas Deja, worked for a year at
Williams´ London Studio as supervising animator on Roger Rabbit. The
supervising animator of the Genie, Eric Goldberg, was a longtime Williams
employee and animated on The Thief and the Cobbler. John Musker,
co-director of Aladdin, has quoted attending a Williams seminar in the
seventies as the thing that led him into animation, and has commented in an
interview in Animato on thedifference in look between The Thief and
Aladdin; The Thief being more stylised, 2D and based on Arabian miniatures.
--
Jo Jurgens
jjur...@online.no
Adam J Davis
Hey guys, that movie was originally released to theatres called "Arabian
Nights" and it was killed by Disney on purpose, with no real ad campaign
and it was released two years after it was supposed to, in order to
allow Aladdin to get out first. Now they are trying to prevent it from
making money again by calling it another name. Now I really want to see
this movie, which is now called The Thief and the Cobbler. This reminds
me of the discussion that Disney stole the idea for The Lion King from
another cartoon or comic in Japan.
Hmmm...
Adam
Eddie Bowers
A little of both I think.
A lot of the core work for "The Thief and the Cobbler" was done way before
Aladdin, and even some (at least one:Eric Goldberg) of the animators that
worked on both. This probably caused some of the ideas to get (lets say)
borrowed.
BUT, when Fred Calvert took over the project he apparently was trying to
turn it into an Aladdin clone. So at this point the bastardized
non-William's version was ripping off Aladdin.
I personally don't think Disney is trying to kill this film. The damage was
done before they got it. I do think that they don't have much interest in
it, so releasing the work print may never happen.
I also think that even in it's intended state (I haven't seen the work
print so this is speculation) it would not have been financially
successful, because unlike most Disney features it looks real dated.
everyone interested in the subject should check out the awn articles this
month.
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue1.12/articles/williams1.12.html
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue1.12/articles/edito1.12.html
-Eddie
Michele Chubirka
It's on video and I really enjoyed it. Incredible character designs
and backgrounds. Moments of incredible greatness ruined by Kroyer's
added scenes, terrible songs, and stupid narration/voice overs.
Jim Zubkavich
Adam J Davis wrote:
>
> Hey guys, that movie was originally released to theatres called "Arabian
> Nights" and it was killed by Disney on purpose, with no real ad campaign
> and it was released two years after it was supposed to, in order to
> allow Aladdin to get out first. Now they are trying to prevent it from
> making money again by calling it another name. Now I really want to see
> this movie, which is now called The Thief and the Cobbler. This reminds
> me of the discussion that Disney stole the idea for The Lion King from
> another cartoon or comic in Japan.
Definately! As far as I can tell from a variety of sources, Disney has
"borrowed" ideas from Japanese animation several times. Jafar's design
seems influenced by not only the Thief and the Cobbler, but by a Japanese
animation based on the story of Aladdin. The villain in the Japanese one
has a buzzard sidekick as well.
The Lion King tears huge liberties from Kimba the White Lion, a show
created by Osamu Tezuka (the guy who created Astro Boy). The story
elements are all there, along with various chracter types and villain. Of
course, Disney denied claims and no one can stop the Mouse Giant anyhow.
Don't get me wrong, I love Alladin and the Lion King, but I'm just
calling a Spade a Spade here.
John Cawley
Jim Zubkavich <zubk...@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca> writes:
>Definately! As far as I can tell from a variety of sources, Disney has
>"borrowed" ideas from Japanese animation several times.
The first major "borrow" of anime by Disney comes in THE GREAT MOUSE
DETECTIVE. They were trying to figure out how to stage the final
battle between Basil and Ratigan. One of the story folks asked if
anyone had ever seen CASTLE OF CAGLIOSTRA (a LUPIN III feature). They
said no. He got his copy and showed the ending of the film which
features the hero and villain in a climatic battle inside (and outside)
a giant clock tower. They all said "that's it" and the rest is
history. (No, this is not a guess... one of the story folks bragged
about it once to me while working on a feature I was involved with.)
/\__/\
topfox
Rick May
In article <01bc2a5a$816da100$84523a9d@steely_dan>, "Eddie Bowers" <edd...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>A little of both I think.
>
>turn it into an Aladdin clone. So at this point the bastardized
>non-William's version was ripping off Aladdin.
>
>
I dont believe this is true. With my talks with Fred, when he was still
working on the project. He was quite upset that he was "forced" to do to it,
what he did. He didnt want it that way, and was just as disgusted by the
finished project as anyone else.. Still to this day, he is quite bothered
about it.
From the way I understood it (at the time I didnt really know the background
and became interested long afterwards), the people paying the bills wanted a
more "Disney"ish film..
Rick May
Rick May
Freelance Animator
CG-CHAR List Guy
http://www.cinenet.net/~rickmay
Stephen W. Worth
> >BUT, when Fred Calvert took over the project he apparently was trying to
> >turn it into an Aladdin clone. So at this point the bastardized
> >non-William's version was ripping off Aladdin.
In article <5fppnc$h0m$1...@marina.cinenet.net>, ric...@cinenet.net (Rick
May) wrote:
> I dont believe this is true. With my talks with Fred, when he was still
> working on the project. He was quite upset that he was "forced" to do to it,
> what he did. He didnt want it that way, and was just as disgusted by the
> finished project as anyone else.. Still to this day, he is quite bothered
> about it.
The Completion Bond company shopped the project around
to several directors before they gave the project to
Fred Calvert... It was clear that the company wanted
to "Disney-fy" the film, and change it from the way
Williams intended it. That's why all the directors
before Calvert passed on it. With all of the publicity
going around when the film was taken away from Williams,
and the clear intention of the Completion Bond Company,
it's strange that he would say that he was "forced" to
finish the film the way he did. I would guess that he
would have looked at it as a quick and dirty way to
pick up some work... nothing more than that. If he feels
bothered about mucking around with William's film, why
did he take the job in the first place?
Craig Good
In article <331E8A...@students.wisc.edu>, Adam J Davis
<ajd...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
: Hey guys, that movie was originally released to theatres called "Arabian
: Nights" and it was killed by Disney on purpose
Nope. It was originally called "The Thief and the Cobbler", but was never
finished. It was taken away from Richard Williams after roughly twenty
years of production. It was then bowdlerized and re-edited and released
under the title "Arabian Nights". Disney had nothing to do with killing
it. It was an abortion from the word go. Disney, with all their might,
couldn't have made it *live* if they had wanted to. But since it wasn't
their movie, why would they?
"Arabian Nights" is a horrible mess and an abomination. Don't see it. If
you're lucky enough to find someone with one of the unauthorized VHS tapes
of Cobbler, see that. But unless you can see the original, you're better
off imagining it than seeing how they ruined it while turning it into
"Arabian Nights".
--
--Craig
go...@pixar.com
C. Wolffe
Are we going to rehash all this again? Next thing you know, people
will be adding how The Lion King ripped of Kimba, which if anyone who
ever saw that series knows isn't true. There may be some influences,
but not a rip off. Just too many differences in the plots and the
executions. But this seems to be a perinneal thread, so I guess people
will keep bringing it up. :)
Cath
Thomas E. Reed
The cause for this being a perennial thread is one of the great delusions
of animation fans. It's not exclusive to animation, but it's especially
strong delusions for this group.
The delusion: A True Ar-TEEST must never have the purity of his vision
defiled by Evil Businessmen and their Filthy Lucre. (Never mind that one
of the most important reasons animators do art is that they hope to make
some of that self-same filthy lucre on it. Never mind that a True Ar-TEEST
is decided only by prejudiced critics with hidden agendas. Never mind that
animation is a group effort, with such material and time demands that
commerce and business are a necessary element for its existence.)
For gaming fun, visit the SunQuest Web page
with game reviews, contests, news and more...
[http://www.sundial.net/~sunquest]
Heckboy
Boy, you sure caught them on this one. Who would have ever thought to
stage a climax on the top of a building for a movie. Good thing those
clever Japansese invented this convention.
In article <5fnnvu$8...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, top...@ix.netcom.com(John
Cawley) wrote:
> The first major "borrow" of anime by Disney comes in THE GREAT MOUSE
> DETECTIVE. They were trying to figure out how to stage the final
> battle between Basil and Ratigan. One of the story folks asked if
> anyone had ever seen CASTLE OF CAGLIOSTRA (a LUPIN III feature). They
> said no. He got his copy and showed the ending of the film which
> features the hero and villain in a climatic battle inside (and outside)
> a giant clock tower. They all said "that's it" and the rest is
> history. (No, this is not a guess... one of the story folks bragged
> about it once to me while working on a feature I was involved with.)
>
> /\__/\
> topfox
Heckboy
"Shop smart, shop 'S' Mart."
Heckboy
> In article <01bc2a5a$816da100$84523a9d@steely_dan>, "Eddie Bowers"
<edd...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >A little of both I think.
> >
> >BUT, when Fred Calvert took over the project he apparently was trying to
> >turn it into an Aladdin clone. So at this point the bastardized
> >non-William's version was ripping off Aladdin.
> >
> >-Eddie
> >
>
>
> I dont believe this is true. With my talks with Fred, when he was still
> working on the project. He was quite upset that he was "forced" to do to it,
> what he did. He didnt want it that way, and was just as disgusted by the
> finished project as anyone else.. Still to this day, he is quite bothered
> about it.
>
> From the way I understood it (at the time I didnt really know the background
> and became interested long afterwards), the people paying the bills wanted a
> more "Disney"ish film..
>
>
> Rick May
>
You are correct, sir!
Michele Chubirka
I TOTALLY disagree. My suggestion is to see the tape with the sound
off and fast forward through any of the songs. There is still enough
of Richard Williams brilliant work (character designs like the thief,
background designs, etc...) to validate a close look. It is criminal
what was done to this film, because it is obviously an act of love for
the medium.
Michele
Adam J Davis
Ok, but let's just get one thing straight here guys. NOTHING is ever
completely invented. The art of creation is just the synthesis of
several already existing ideas into a new one. Therefore, there are
never any truly "brand-new" concepts. Take, for example, Star Wars. It
is basically a cross between fairy tale, science fiction, and the serial
films of the 50's. IMHO, there are no true "ARR-TEESTS". Anyone who
dosen't think that ideas were lifted back and forth between Cobbler and
Aladdin is crazy, and although I once believed that Disney stole ideas
from Cobbler I now see it probably went both ways. Lion King stole ideas
from Kimba. Kimba stole ideas from Hamlet, Bambi, and Jungle Book. The
list could go on forever, and it would, until we reached the one true
"original" story which probably originated at the dawn of man. For more
in this vein, see the works of Joseph Campbell.
Adam
Heckboy
> Are we going to rehash all this again? Next thing you know, people
> will be adding how The Lion King ripped of Kimba,
Of course Disney did. Nothing clever ever comes out of Disney. They
search the world for other people's ideas to steal. The upcoming hercules
is a rip off of "All in the Family." Don't believe me, just wait till you
see it.
Heckboy
In article <3321FE...@students.wisc.edu>, Adam J Davis
<ajd...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Ok, but let's just get one thing straight here guys. NOTHING is ever
> completely invented.
Eli Whitney (sp) invented the cotten gin. Ford inventend the asembly line.
Rick May
Bigshot wrote:
>
> I would guess that he
>would have looked at it as a quick and dirty way to
>pick up some work... nothing more than that. If he feels
>bothered about mucking around with William's film, why
>did he take the job in the first place?
>
I cant answer that question since I am not Fred. (Perhaps he was told
something you are not aware of.) But can only go by what Fred told me, and
what others told me. The only thing I have countering these comments is what
you have said. I will weigh both sides and make a decision.
hmmm..
Ok, Im done..
Since Fred is a nice guy and he seemed much more sincere talking to him in
person, and I dont know you and it is hard to see your sincerity over the
computer, Ill go with him.. :)
Rick
p.s. I am not saying you arent sincere.. You may have your facts straight, but
I have to go with my guts...
Brian Oreskov
Heckboy <cr...@smartlink.net> skrev i artiklen
<crash-ya02318000...@news.smartlink.net>...
> In article <E6pxq...@iglou.com>, C. Wolffe <fu...@iglou.com> wrote:
>
> > Are we going to rehash all this again? Next thing you know,
people
> > will be adding how The Lion King ripped of Kimba,
>
> Of course Disney did. Nothing clever ever comes out of Disney. They
> search the world for other people's ideas to steal. The upcoming
hercules
> is a rip off of "All in the Family." Don't believe me, just wait till
you
> see it.
>
> Heckboy
> "Shop smart, shop 'S' Mart."
>
> www.smartlink.net/~crash/
>
I have also heard that Star Wars was originally ripped of from a H.C.
Anderson tale,
and that the millinium falcon was actually camel in the tale.
Get real guys, with this mass distribution all over, inspiration is bound
to come
from everywhere.
Brian Oreskov
Adam J Davis
> Get real guys, with this mass distribution all over, inspiration is bound
> to come
> from everywhere.
My point exactly...
Adam
"What is understood need not be discussed."