Who's the most complex cartoon character-poll

60 views
Skip to first unread message

Michael Lo

unread,
Sep 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/26/96
to

Whenever I occassionally flip through the anime group (not
no more, too much arrogance at times in that group) they make polls
on whose the most beautiful, the strongest, the nicest etc.

So I want to make the following poll: which character is
the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
you have encountered.

My nomination would be Julie Winters of The Maxx. With her
character it seems that in the cartoon, almost everything she says
is a revelation of the characteristics she tries to hide. She has
vulnerability as mentioned when she says "But I have my fortress safe
and dry", her actions show tough exterior to hide it though like the
scene where she drips her hair on that policeman's notepad. She also
a strong streak of amorality which she tries to sugarcoat with her
"I am a social worker who everyone can turn too" facade. Much of
what she says relates to the troubled incident about the rabbit though
it takes some nitpicking like when she mentions to the Maxx or was it
Mr. Gone, about "You blame me, feminism, you sound like a broken doll
can't you take responsibility for yourself" or something like that.
I also love those dreamland sequences which reveal a little more about
her. She is a hypocrite, manipulative, occassionally amoral, and trapped
in a vicious cycle but she can also be affecionate, kind and despite the
vulnerability she tries to hide, she is capable of finally saving herself
and therefore the Maxx.
:x


Zachary Zulkowskio

unread,
Sep 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/26/96
to

Would you believe... Gadget?

Attractive and intelligent, and most of the times stoic, she does have
strong feelings of attachment her friends and duty to her communit. She is
also not without her pride, (althought at times her self-esteem does take
a little beating), and in one episode: "Strange case of the Cola Cult",
she was absolutly gloating!

She is pretty pretty well developed for a disney character.
________________________________________________________________________

Commander Zax

Trekie, Babyloonie, Furrie

"Logic is a little bird tweeting in a meadow; logic is a wreath of pretty
flowers that smell...bad!"

"Look at that disgusting display!"
"Yes Sir!
...From the ancient days of CGA

Obligatory Web Page plug: http://village.ios.com/~zzul518
_________________________________________________________________________


David G. Homerick

unread,
Sep 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/26/96
to

On 26 Sep 1996, Michael Lo (m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca) announced to the world:
: Whenever I occassionally flip through the anime group (not

: no more, too much arrogance at times in that group) they make polls
: on whose the most beautiful, the strongest, the nicest etc.
:
: So I want to make the following poll: which character is
: the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
: European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
: you have encountered.

: My nomination would be Julie Winters of The Maxx.

I pick the Chuck Jones/Michael Maltese version of Daffy Duck, who "rushes
in and fears to tread at the same time."

Daffy is overbearing yet fawning, paranoid yet overconfident, and
cowardly yet brash, but these massive personal contradictions make
perfect, simple sense when played out on screen. Beautiful, beautiful
writing and drawing.

"I'm not like other people. I can't stand pain."

"Come now, eager young space cadet."

"Go on! Shoot me again, I love it! I love the smell of burnt feathers
and gunpowder and cordite! I'm and elk! Shoot me, it's elk season!
I'm a fiddler crab! Why don't you shoot me, it's fiddler crab season!"

"Tick... tick... tick... tick... well, it's a living."

-- David Homerick


LaurlING

unread,
Sep 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/27/96
to

My vote is for Duckman. He is riddled with foibles, but they aren't just
imposed upon him. Rather they seem to logically arise from the events of
his life, such as accidentally causing the deaths of his father and his
wife, having an inattentive "party girl" for a mom, AND (paging Dr. Freud)
being forced to live with his late wife's shrewish twin. He can be
extremely cruel and/or selfish, but also very tender and heartfelt and
generous sometimes one right after another. Also he is really really
really funny, and what's more complex than that? <GG>


dma...@forest.drew.edu

unread,
Sep 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/27/96
to

In article <52fl5j$7...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) writes:
> m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
> [snipped]
> :So I want to make the following poll: which character is

> :the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> :European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> :you have encountered.
> [snipped]

Hmm...I always thought that Guld Bowman from Macross Plus was a
pretty complex character. He's involved in this great internal struggle
throught the entire OVA. Control being the most important thing to him
when he, himself, is totally out of control. Classic case of denial I
guess. He hates what he is.

---Dmambu

Thomas E. Reed

unread,
Sep 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/27/96
to

In article <52eb09$j...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca

(Michael Lo) wrote:
> So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> you have encountered.
>
This will probably cause multiple question marks, but has anyone considered...

Darkwing Duck!

No, wait a minute. This is real. Consider the limitations put upon him.
He's done by Disney, so the cute meter is pegging. Worse, he's operating
in one of the most overdone genres around, the Humorous Superhero.
Practically every hero type done humorously in cartoons has been a jerk.
Think about Captain Zammo and Private Hammo, Tom Slick, George of the
Jungle, Super Chicken, and others too numerous to name. All of them are
incompetent, and triumph over evil mostly by accident.

Darkwing was a different beast. He was egomaniacal and occasionally
oblivious, but he was able to realize his mistakes and compensate for
them. He was also as competent at catching bad guys as "straight"
superheroes.

What is more, as best demonstrated in the pilot episodes, Darkwing was a
guy who actually had a family life and actually loved his adopted daughter
Gosalyn. Possibly because "straight" heroes are intended to be only for
boys, they never have any kind of emotional life (outside of self-pity or
Wolverine-like angst). Darkwing, on the other hand, kept up his suburban
life as Drake Mallard simply to swing the adoption of Gosalyn. That's a
lot different than the 1960's Superman playing mind games on Lois Lane
with his secret identity.

Finally, various episodes have Darkwing facing the handicap of blindness -
and dealing with it successfully, facing death (in an "imaginary" episode,
seeing his loved ones mourn him), and even facing the ego-busting power of
a girlfriend with mystic powers that surpass his more-or-less normal
abilities.

Ball's in your court, next person.

For gaming fun, visit the SunQuest Web page
with game reviews, contests, news and more...
[http://www.sundial.net/~sunquest]

SEVGREEN

unread,
Sep 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/27/96
to

Most complex cartoon character? That's easy! Tex Avery's Screwy Squirrel.
No further explanation needed. Either ya know him, or ya think ya know
him.


Mark LoPresti, Buffalo NY

Susan C. Mitchell

unread,
Sep 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/28/96
to

Michael Lo (m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: Whenever I occassionally flip through the anime group (not
: no more, too much arrogance at times in that group) they make polls
: on whose the most beautiful, the strongest, the nicest etc.
:
: So I want to make the following poll: which character is

: the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
: European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
: you have encountered.

Kit Cloudkicker.

No, honest.

A twelve-year-old street kid, an orphan, probably a bastard. He never
mentions his family. In the first episodes, when he's asked his name, he
gives it as "Kit ... Cloudkicker," with an odd hesitation and a slightly
dubious expression: clearly this isn't the name he was born to. But
it's the only name he gives -- perhaps the only name he has.

A kid with a *known* criminal past, a history with Don Karnage's band of
air pirates. "I took up with Karnage's gang about a year ago, but I got
-- sick of them." It's already known that Karnage has a habit of
whacking his subordinates around on little or no provocation. Just what
*was* it that Kit "got sick of"? Being abused? Being the youngest and
smallest member of a violent gang? And in "Plunder and Lightning," one
of the pirates says to Karnage -- speaking of their latest victims --
"Why'd you let them live, Boss?" Clear implication: "let them live" is
*not* standard procedure. How many deaths has Kit seen? In one of his
very earliest scenes, we see him escaping from the _Iron Vulture_. As he
runs through a corridor, he grabs a grappling-hook gun. His expression
right then -- a strange, dark, too-mature scowl -- says a lot: he means
to use the gun and his airfoil to "hitch a ride" on a passing airplane --
but if he has to put a grappling-hook right through a pirate, he will.

A free agent: a homeless, parentless child during the Depression. (And
if you don't think the TaleSpin universe is going through a Depression,
check out those soup lines in "From Here To Machinery.") He's lived (so
Jymn Magon has said) on his own, traveling from port to port, sleeping in
hangars, in doorways, under docks. But he's not a charity case at Higher
for Hire: he *earns* his living, and deals with adults on an adult
basis. Yet when he's with Molly, he can act like a child his own age, or
even younger: "There is often a great deal of the child left in people
who have had to grow up too soon," Willa Cather said, and the statement
applies perfectly to Kit.

Very tough, and very vulnerable. After his life with the pirates, what
reason had he to trust Baloo? Or to ever trust *any* adult again? But
he did. And then pretended to sell him and Rebecca out, to save them:
knowing they would think he'd betrayed them. Sacrificing friendships for
friends. He didn't quite believe it when Baloo finally returned for
him; didn't believe he'd been rescued, didn't believe Baloo would want
him back as a partner. Even in later episodes, we see that it's
sometimes hard for him to trust ... but he does.

Think globally, act locally.
Susan

--
=========== Susan C. Mitchell =========== sus...@xroads.com ===========
"Gadfly is what they call you when you are no longer | Seditious libel
dangerous. I much prefer troublemaker, malcontent, | for fun and
desperado." -- Harlan Ellison | profit

Michelle Klein-Hass

unread,
Sep 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/28/96
to

> On 26 Sep 1996, Michael Lo (m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca) announced to the world:

> : Whenever I occassionally flip through the anime group (not
> : no more, too much arrogance at times in that group) they make polls
> : on whose the most beautiful, the strongest, the nicest etc.
> :
> : So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> : the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> : European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> : you have encountered.

While I agree with your estimation of Julie Winters (although I think
Sarah is even better in this score, my nominee is:

John Kricfalusi's version of Ren Hoek.

Think about these great scenes:

* Ren praying to god for Stimpy's safe recovery in "Son of Stimpy";
* Ren's Ice Cream Bar speech;
* Ren waxing Lady Macbeth-like in "Stimpy's Fan Club";
* Ren turning the tables on Stimpy at the end of "Nurse Stimpy";
* and Ren fighting the effects of the Happy Helmet in "Stimpy's Invention."

There is some *great* acting in those sequences, both from the voice angle
and the drawing angle.

Ren is not just a bully, he's not just a small Chihuahua who needs the
protection of his big fat cat Significant Other, he's not just a greedy
Daffy Duck clone...he is fully fleshed out and third-dimensional.

When Games tried to portray Ren in later episodes without John K.'s
guidance and voice acting, they took the meanness and amplified it,
turning this multifaceted character into a brat who enjoys picking on
weaker creatures. The splitting of Ren Hoek into "Evil Ren" and "Apathetic
Ren" in "Ren's Bitter Half" was very telling. That telegraphed what the
Games version of Ren had turned into.

I welcome your comments.
--.\\<-H--

--
Michelle Klein-Hass...Animation Nerd and Webnurd Goddess!
Surfin' on a hot-rod Performa 460 36/1Gb...Eat my dust, Intel heads!
For a good time, surf to http://www.2cowherd.net/catseye/anp/ !
--begin Geek Code block--
version 3.1.2v2 (accelerated for Mac 68K)
d- s-:+ !A C++ !U M+>+(got mail from Guy Kawasaki) P+ W++.5$ N++ !K w--- PS+++ PE b++ DI+ G e+ r+++ x+++ Supplemental: GHTML$/GAn /Otaku 23+ SubG++ (schismatic) SP5 KoX WG++
--end Geek Code block--

Mark Pfingstler

unread,
Sep 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/28/96
to

Michael Lo wrote:
>
> Whenever I occassionally flip through the anime group (not
> no more, too much arrogance at times in that group) they make polls
> on whose the most beautiful, the strongest, the nicest etc.
>
> So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> you have encountered.
>

My vote would have to be for Usagi Tsukino from "Sailor Moon". In Usagi,
we encounter a character who is constantly torn between what she wants
and what she has to do. In the beginning, Usagi is an highly emotional,
irresponsible young girl, who really wants nothing more than to enjoy
life. School is, to say the least, not her strong point, she is
chronically late... not what we expect from a super heroine.

Usagi progresses, almost maddeningly slowly, from the above character to
a poised, mature leader. She learns along the way that she is capable of
many things that she never believed possible, such as defeating a
monster alone (without even Tuxedo Mask to bail her out). And she begins
to finally take things seriously; she realizes that even though she
doesn't want to be Sailor Moon, she is Sailor Moon, and must do her duty
to fight off whatever is threatening the Earth.

Usagi can alternately be caring (towards Chibi-Usa, for example), mean
(again, towards Chibi-Usa), manipulative (she pulls Ami's strings on a
few occasions to get her to go along with whatever she has in mind),
jealous (of Rei, and others...), and understanding. She could be
exuberant, usually concerning food, or selfish and whiny, within 10
seconds of each other. She could be content (in Mamoru's arms), or
completely demolished (the scene of Usagi in the phone booth, on the
ground, crying after Mamoru dumps her is absoslutely heartbreaking;
ditto when the other four Sailor Scouts are killed at the end of the
first season).

To sum up, Usagi progresses from being an irresponsible teenaged girl to
a mature, poised young lady in the face of danger, and she shows a range
of emotions the likes of which I have never before seen in a cartoon
character. Therefore, my vote for most complex character goes to Usagi
Tsukino, aka Sailor Moon.


Mark Pfingstler
pfi...@execpc.com

Dan Helmick

unread,
Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
to

I'm most intrigued by Yosho (from TENCHI MUYO: The OAV). He really deserves
his own series...I bet he wasn't just writing haiku for the past 700 years!

Dan

--

Gordon Waters

unread,
Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
to

In article <52fl5j$7...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) writes:
>m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
>[snipped]
>:So I want to make the following poll: which character is

>:the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
>:European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
>:you have encountered.
>[snipped]

Tochiro from Space Pirate Captain Harlock- he's got GENERATIONS of
memores and experience behind him... he's probably the anime character I
would most likely classify as a libertarian in anime (along with Harlock
himself, of course...) but he's got passion and a heart of gold...

Emereldas from Harlock and Galaxy Express 999. Her motivations are never
quite explained, but she obviously has a well-formed personal code of
conduct forged over a vast number of varying experiences.

Lupin III- even Mamo couldn't figure out what was going on in HIS brain
^_^... Seriously, for someone who's as brazen of a thief as he is, he's
got *some kind* of moral code he lives on... it's pretty convoluted and
complicated, but it definitely exists...

The General from The Wings of Honneamise- I guess historians
automatically count (^_^) but he's got such a perspective on what's going
on around him, and is able to make other people THINK about what's
important to them, what's the right thing to do, and the like...

That's all I have time for now...

Regards,
Gordon.

--
===== //|| || /\ || ||\\ Anime Weekend Atlanta -The Southeast US' Premier
=== //__|| || //\\ || ||__\\ Japanese Animation Festival- Nov.1-3 1996 ====
= //----|| ||// \\|| ||----\\ Holiday Inn Airport South, Atlanta GA. =====
// || | / \ | || \\ (404)-364-9773 gwa...@crl.com ========

Bruce James Robert Linley

unread,
Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
to

In ye olden post gwa...@crl.com (Gordon Waters) spake...

>In article <52fl5j$7...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) writes:
>>m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
>>[snipped]
>>:So I want to make the following poll: which character is
>>:the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
>>:European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
>>:you have encountered.

Miyu. Gotta be Miyu. To this day, I'm still not sure what to make of her;
wheather her intentions are altruistic or self-serving or if she is simply
carrying out her destiny. I think all of the above are true.

--
Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | Kyuuketsuki Miyu, Armitage III
lin...@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | Lovely Angels, Ah My Goddess!
Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ |-------------------------------
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | My opinions, not my employers.

Derek Janssen

unread,
Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
to

Michael Lo wrote:
>
> So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> you have encountered.

As if you even had to ask:
Oyuki, from "Urusei Yatsura"

We may _never_ know exactly what she's thinking, at any time...

Derek Janssen
djan...@ultranet.com

Trevor Barrie

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

tom...@sundial.net (Thomas E. Reed) wrote:

>What is more, as best demonstrated in the pilot episodes, Darkwing was a
>guy who actually had a family life and actually loved his adopted daughter
>Gosalyn. Possibly because "straight" heroes are intended to be only for
>boys, they never have any kind of emotional life (outside of self-pity or
>Wolverine-like angst).

Stuff and nonsense. Amend it to "'Straight' heroes _often_ lack an emotional
life", and you may have a point.


Michael Lo

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Good and often surprising replies from the posters. Thank you
:x


James Lynn

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Derek Janssen (djan...@ultranet.com) wrote:

Hmm. Oyuki and Kasumi--separated at birth? Both perfect ladies,
soft-spoken, never less than impeccable manners and speech...and you
don't want to piss either of them off. (Well, Oyuki you *don't* want mad
at you, and who could ever be so cruel as to anger Kasumi? And what
would happen if you *did*?).

Now *there's* a fanfic idea. And Ran = Nabiki and Akane = Lum?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theresa Wymer posting from jam...@efn.org


Nora Jemison

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

*sigh* I've been waiting for someone to mention him, but they
haven't. So I guess the job falls to me. *looks around---"Katchan?
This seems like a priestess-ly duty to me . . ."* ^_-

Vejiita, from Dragonball. The Prince of the Saiyajin, he was
unabashedly evil when he first appeared, engaging in such pleasant
pastimes as eating his enemies and committing wholesale genocide. Yet
even then he had his own personal code of behavior---bizarre and often
unfathomable to those around him, and decidedly amoral by many
standards. Yet after one event---his defeat in battle, against a
warrior of pathetically low birth---that code began to change. With a
purpose to channel his energies toward, he reordered his priorities
and began to explore options that no Saiyajin before him would ever
have touched. Settling down with a Human woman and having a
half-breed brat? Pshaw. Hanging around with a bunch of low-class
weaklings, and *gasp* occasionally even helping them (albeit for his
own reasons). Don't make him laugh. But in spite of every
expectation to the contrary, he did these things.

Still, this was not some cliched
"bad-guy-sees-the-error-of-his-ways-and-turns-good" change; he always
kept his goal of defeating Gokuu. For self-centered good and often
for ill, his pride was always his most defining characteristic. So
one wonders, ultimately, what made him unbend enough to hug his son .
. . before committing suicide in an attempt to save the planet that,
only a few years before, he tried to destroy. If nothing else,
Vejiita always kept the reader wondering.

Over the many years that passed chronologically during the series,
Vejiita took us all on a roller-coaster ride that only ended when the
series ended. Forget the flattop-wearing changeling in DBGT; I, for
one, will miss the *true* Prince. =)

Nora
--
Nora Jemison (formerly NKJem)
http://wam.umd.edu/~njemison/

"You'll never prove a thing copper, I'm just a part time electrician.
I... I... I... BAD IS GOOD, BABY! DOWN WITH GOVERNMENT!"
--The Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight

Mike Breen

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

Michael Lo wrote:
>
> So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
> European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> you have encountered.

As Gordon Waters said, Harlock, Tochiro, and Emereldas are all very complex
and well-defined characters. I'd also like to add:

Desslok. Goes from being the super-bad-guy to the super-ally, gradually.
In fact, the entire Yamato/Star Blazers story could be broken down like
this:
Quest for Iscandar=Desslok's war
Comet Empire up through the confrontation with Wildstar=Desslok's revenge
the confrontation episodes and Yamato:The New Journey=Desslok's turning
The Bolar Wars=Desslok's redemption

Likewise, Derek Wildstar/Susumu Kodai is complex. His development from a
young, brash, hothead to a wise commander is facinating to watch.

Someone posted Guld Bowman, and I have to agree.

And finally, Agito Makashima, aka Guyver III, you _never_ know _really_
what he's up to.

---Mike
Loud Family, Robyn Hitchcock, Big Star
Yamato, Macross, Highlander

Check out the Other Days home page at
http://www.channel1.com/users/mikeb/odays.html

Paolo Valladolid

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

Patlabor's Goto deserves mention.


Paolo Valladolid - Fugawari Orange Street Fanfiction Project Member
http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/ICR/users/pvallado/fos/fos.html
--

dma...@forest.drew.edu

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

In article <52ue01$s...@news1.ucsd.edu>, pval...@waynesworld.ucsd.edu (Paolo Valladolid) writes:
>
> Patlabor's Goto deserves mention.


ReallY? I mean, he's cool, he's manipulative....but does that
mean he's complex? He's a pretty straight-laced "by any means necessary
to preserve the law" kinda character (NOT to be confused with the "I'm
gonna kick some butt to uphold the law" character ala Dirty Harry) and
he's subtle as all hell - But there really isn't a lot of depth to him.
No, let me take that back, there is depth but it's really self assured
depth. There's never really any struggle inside of Goto. He seems to
know everything and what course of action to take at any moment.

Shinohara, I feel, is deeper than Goto. Hell, even Noa is. They
all have something to prove. Goto is just THE MAN. Period. He's
definately up there for "Coolest Anime Character" but I don't think he'd
fit in the category of "Deepest Anime Character, IMHO.

---Dmambu

Christopher V. Berdoz

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

I don't like to mention anime characters, but I think Shiro Lhadatt
from "wings of honneamise" and Captain Goto from "Patlabor" movies.
I'd go into it, but i'm in a hurry. I think many american cartoon
characters are complex, too many to mention, really.

CB

jbu...@gemini.kent.edu

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

|> >m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
|> >[snipped]

|> >:So I want to make the following poll: which character is


|> >:the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
|> >:European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
|> >:you have encountered.

|> >[snipped]
|>

Masamune Shirow's Motokono Kusanangi (Ghost in the Shell) and Deunan Knute (esp.
in Appleseed book 2) would have to be up there.


--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."

Scott Andrew Ellerman

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

dma...@forest.drew.edu wrote:
: In article <52ue01$s...@news1.ucsd.edu>, pval...@waynesworld.ucsd.edu (
: ReallY? I mean, he's cool, he's manipulative....but does that
: mean he's complex?
[the kshhh of a lightsaber blade: still the handiest text editor]
: There's never really any struggle inside of Goto.

Well, if struggle is required for complexity, then how come nobody's mentioned
Kusanagi Motoko from _Ghost In The Shell_? There's a hell of a struggle if
I ever saw one... (to paraphrase: "What makes me think I'm me? Where is the
dividing line between machine and man...or is there one?")

Agree that Goto is interesting, if not extraordinarily complex, though.
--
[---]======================[---]======================[---]
III Scott A. Ellerman III selle...@ohiou.edu III
[___]======================[___]======================[___]

M Kang

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

In article <52rkbu$o...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>,

m...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
> Good and often surprising replies from the posters. Thank you
>:x
>

I can't believe no one has mentioned Nausicaa, and her
oft-in-the-background mentor Yupa Miralda. She has depth of character as well
as emotion, but her emotions are rarely out of control, although they can
reach the extremes. And she has such a vivid passion for Life. Perhaps this
didn't show through too well in the anime, but it's evident in the manga.

Although she is cast as the principal character, she doesn't strike me
as a typical hero. There's a sense of realism to her in that she doesn't go
around crusading to further the cause of 'Good' or to champion the name of
some God (although in the manga she keeps referencing the God of the Wind as
her inspiration), she's out in the world to understand it (a world which is
full of suffering, not unlike our own), and to live and share it to the
fullest extent. She's a person, and she's human, at the sametime there's a
more than human aspect to her. At the start of the movie she's a young girl
(of sixteen years?) and already she possesses a wisdom of the ages, while
retaining the innocence of youth. She's an adventrous spirit with a strong
empathy for all living things.

As for her mentor, Yupa, there could be no better teacher. A learned
man that has travelled the extent of the surrounding lands learning much
wisdom. He remains calm and controlled, and appears to have considerable
foresight. He's a man of action with extreme levels of patience. He chooses
his actions carefully, but he doesn't seem to suffer from indecision at any
time.

All of this of course is in my most humble opinion. A further
comment, if these two people were villians, the world would tremble. As
'reluctant heroes' they've brought a real sense of hope to their world.

Mike.

P.S. apologies for the long discourse.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M Kang

Isaac Kuo

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

The most complex anime character I've seen so far is Amuro Rei.
He's one of the few characters who we see mature and change in
a plausible way (as opposed to Char).
--
_____ Isaac Kuo (k...@bit.csc.lsu.edu,isaa...@tyrell.net)
__|_>o<_|__
/___________\ "Just as Jesus was a Jew, the opening
\=\>-----</=/ theme to Macross was not J-pop."

Don Redmond

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

I was originally going to mention someone like Batman (on the new
animated series), but today I realized that that was way off base.
The most complex character has got to be Wonder Dog from the early
Superfriends. Why is he the most complex? If he isn't, then why in
hell does he deserve a moment's time on the show? A close runner-up
is Gleek, his replacement.
Don

Matsuura-kun

unread,
Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96
to

m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
> So I want to make the following poll: which character is
>the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
>European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
>you have encountered.


1) The Puppet Master from GitS
2) Akizuki Meiko from Marmalade Boy
3) Suzuki Arimi from Marmalade Boy
4) Ayukawa Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road
5) Muto Rikako from Umi Ga Kikoeru


--

=========================================================================
Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime Coordinator
PO Box 3054 | !!Marmalade Boy Forever!!
Brown University | ***Arimi***
Providence, RI 02912| If interested in starting a collection or
tel. (401) 863-4146 | want anime tapes, ask about my fanservice
=========================================================================

Atmavictu

unread,
Oct 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/6/96
to

Matsuura-kun wrote:
>
> m...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Lo) wrote:
> > So I want to make the following poll: which character is
> >the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North
> >American,
> >European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
> >you have encountered.
>
> 1) The Puppet Master from GitS

#2501 was it? I haven't seen that movie in a long time.

> 2) Akizuki Meiko from Marmalade Boy

Hey, my sister uses her name for her handle! I like the way Meiko falls
in love with her teacher, but it isn't one of those typical one-way "Oh,
I'm so pathetic" crushes.

> 4) Ayukawa Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road

Complex? I guess so, but her portrayal as "all-purpose, wonderful
girlfriend that Kyosuke doesn't have the heart to chose over Hikaru" is
somewhat blatant. (the portrayal of my own nomination is, too, but
never mind that :)

> Providence, RI 02912| If interested in starting a collection or
> tel. (401) 863-4146 | want anime tapes, ask about my fanservice

You know what the colloquial meaning of "fan service" is, don't you?
Just wondering.

Now for my nomination:
I can't remember his name, but he was the villain for the old Canadian
cartoon show, "The Raccoons." I watched this show on the Disney Channel
a lot as a kid, but it's been a long time. He may have been the
money-grubbing, cigar smoking villain, but I do recall his depth.

He had a son of his own, (the name of whom I also forget) whose mother
died when he was at a young age. He loved his son, much more so than
his desire to bulldoze Evergreen Forest and the money that action would
bring in.

One thing I can't remember about the show's premise is why he still
desired to destroy the forest (and build condos or whatever) even though
his son was blatently against it. Either it's a plothole or there's
just an important I forgot.

Although I usually hate shows with blatent morals, there was one episode
of The Raccoons that I think handled the smoking issue well. It has a
young raccon that wished to smoke to look sophisicated, but the guy
convinced her by saying something along the lines of, "In my youth, I
had a similar deire to smoke cigars. I've wanted to quit, but could
never manage." I've heard similar accounts from real people, so it's
better than "Smoking is bad for you. It was make Satan eat your flesh"
or something.

Now that I think about it, he reminds me alot of Shogeki no ("Impact" or
"Shocking") Alberto from the anime, Giant Robo. Both are middle aged
villains, smoke cigars, are loving fathers and are more than the evil
people than they appear to be.

Sorry for writing longer than I intended-- I still have that childhood
nostalgia for the show.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---John "Atmavictu" Chambers
Villain of the week: Laocorn, the Canadian Warlord, from Fatal Fury
Good guy of the week: Ryuquir from the Villgust "meow^4, MEOW!"

Ann

unread,
Oct 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/7/96
to


My vote goes to Darkwing Duck, have you ever tried to write a fan-fic about
him? You realize how almost immpossible it is to get him just right!
Although, Serena from Sailor Moon comes second.
Lavender Feline

David McDermott

unread,
Oct 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/7/96
to

Atmavictu wrote:
>
> I can't remember his name, but he was the villain for the old Canadian
> cartoon show, "The Raccoons."
>

I believe his name was Cyril Sneer. Can't seem to remember the son's name, oddly enough.

Atmavictu

unread,
Oct 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/7/96
to

David McDermott wrote:
>
> Atmavictu wrote:
> >
> > I can't remember his name, but he was the villain for the old
> > Canadian cartoon show, "The Raccoons."

On a complete and utter tangent, I was one a chat line a few months ago
and I said that I like most Japanese and Canadian (mostly National Film
Board of Canada stuff, tho) animation better than most American
animation. About five morons ganged up on me (called me "Atma jerk" and
other childish comments) and told me how unpatriotic and anti-American I
was. I still laugh at that. :)

> I believe his name was Cyril Sneer. Can't seem to remember the son's
> name, oddly enough.

Yes! I was SURE that the name was something evil sounding. Thanks for
jogging my memory!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---John "Atmavictu" Chambers
self-appointed guru and crusader of Giant Robo

DAK

unread,
Oct 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/8/96
to

In article <325952...@earthlink.net>, David McDermott
<dok...@earthlink.net> writes

>Atmavictu wrote:
>>
>> I can't remember his name, but he was the villain for the old Canadian
>> cartoon show, "The Raccoons."
>>
>
>I believe his name was Cyril Sneer. Can't seem to remember the son's name, oddly
>enough.

Cedric Sneer was the name of Cyril's son
2Xist is 2B. 2B is not 2Xist.
DAK is D...@thiseden.demon.co.uk

Susan C. Mitchell

unread,
Oct 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/9/96
to

Ann (n...@fast.net) wrote:


: My vote goes to Darkwing Duck, have you ever tried to write a fan-fic about


: him? You realize how almost immpossible it is to get him just right!
: Although, Serena from Sailor Moon comes second.

I'll admit that DD is up there, but I still vote for Kit Cloudkicker.

Think globally, act locally.
Susan

--
=========== Susan C. Mitchell =========== sus...@xroads.com ===========
"Gadfly is what they call you when you are no longer | Seditious libel
dangerous. I much prefer troublemaker, malcontent, | for fun and
desperado." -- Harlan Ellison | profit

Christopher V. Berdoz

unread,
Oct 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/11/96
to

jam...@garcia.efn.org (James Lynn) writes:

>Derek Janssen (djan...@ultranet.com) wrote:


>: Michael Lo wrote:
>: >
>: > So I want to make the following poll: which character is
>: > the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,
>: > European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
>: > you have encountered.

Another would probably be Frollo from Hunchback. He's just so
real. And he's a religious man caught in that ever ubiquitous
storyline of controlling his own lust. I honestly don't know if
he wanted to kill esmerelda or get in bed with her. Well, I
guess at the end he wanted to kill her, but for a while I was
confused there.

Matsuura-kun

unread,
Oct 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/12/96
to

>>: Michael Lo wrote:
>>: >
>>: > So I want to make the following poll: which character is
>>: > the most complex in cartoondom


Hey, what about the characters from LoGH and Weathering Continent?
They're pretty sophisticated, too...


=========================================================================
Lawrence Wan |Brown Japanese Culture Association Anime Coordinator
PO Box 3054 | !!Marmalade Boy Forever!!
Brown University | ***Arimi***

Providence, RI 02912| If interested in starting a collection or
tel. (401) 863-4146 | want anime tapes, ask about my fanservice

=========================================================================

James Fabiano

unread,
Oct 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/12/96
to

Darkwing Duck is complex cause he sucks so many ways, you can't guess or find
them all in one lifetime.

Death to the Disney Afternoon!!!!!

J.F.

Juan F. Lara

unread,
Oct 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/13/96
to

In article <53orqo$m...@er5.rutgers.edu>,

James Fabiano <jfab...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>Darkwing Duck is complex cause he sucks so many ways, you can't guess or find
>them all in one lifetime.

And just exactly what the heck are those ways, James Fabiano? Any jerk
can just say a show sucks.

- Juan F. Lara, big "Darkwing Duck" fan
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~jfl/intro.html

Rockwell: I created you!
Darkwing: That's going to surprise the heck out of mom and dad.

Juan F. Lara

unread,
Oct 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/13/96
to

In article <53orqo$m...@er5.rutgers.edu>,
James Fabiano <jfab...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>Death to the Disney Afternoon!!!!!

Death to you first, James Fabiano.

- Juan F. Lara
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~jfl/intro.html


Ann

unread,
Oct 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/15/96
to

> James Fabiano <jfab...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> >Darkwing Duck is complex cause he sucks so many ways, you can't guess or
find
> >them all in one lifetime.
>

Heh, heh, heh. Soooooooooo, you got your brain at WHICH K-mart? |:P
BOY! YOU ARE STUUUUUUUUUPID! YOU FOOL! Posting a letter dissing Darkwing
Duck in the Disney Afternoon newsgroup?!
Now, you want to mess with the masked mallard, you're messin' with ME
"funny" boy! Do you WANT flames, or are you SO COMPLETELY DUMB, that you
didn't realise that you were practically BEGGING for them?! LISTEN UP! ALL
THOSE WHO DON'T LIKE DW WRITE ME! ALL THOSE WHO DO WRITE ME! I'D LIKE TO
KNOW HOW WE DWD LOVERS STAND! Sorry bout the capitals, just kinda, how you
say?, PISS-ED! Any-who! Diss Darkwing Duck, and you diss ME! I am the
LAVENDER FELINE! AND NOBODY! I said, NOBODY! DISSES THE MIGHTY MASKED
MALLARD WHILE I'M STILL ALIVE! (and after I'm not, I shall come to HAUNT
you! ;) Well, my anger is cooling now, and yes, you are all free to your
own opinions, but you DON'T , I repeat, DO NOT, have to make everyone want
to KILL YOU, just because of it! I had better go, please, I may sound like
I want flames, I don't, even those who DON'T like DWD have to agree, this
guy is a JERK! Thank you,
From,
^ ^
. .
-> j <-
u u
Lavender Feline

Negaduck9

unread,
Oct 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/15/96
to

Lavender Feline wrote:

"My vote goes to Darkwing Duck, have you ever tried to write a fan-fic
about
him? You realize how almost immpossible it is to get him just right!"

That's just why I enjoy writing "Darkwing Duck" fan fiction. If a
character has some depth he is a lot more of a challenge to write for, and
the results are a lot more worthwhile. I've been writing DWD stories for
years now, and I never get tired of taking the characters in new
directions based on hints dropped within the series.

--- NEGADUCK

"Ahh, A beautiful dove. The symbol of peace. Maybe I should feed it...
To a CAT!"

The Negapage: http://members.aol.com/negaduck9/negapage.htm

Daniel Lopez

unread,
Oct 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/15/96
to

I'd have to say TEKNOMAN since thos Japan people enjoy adding every
little detail.

Christopher V. Berdoz (cde...@atlas.vcu.edu) wrote:
: jam...@garcia.efn.org (James Lynn) writes:

: >Derek Janssen (djan...@ultranet.com) wrote:


: >: Michael Lo wrote:
: >: >
: >: > So I want to make the following poll: which character is

: >: > the most complex in cartoondom, doesn't matter if it's North American,


: >: > European, Asian or whatever. What I mean is the most depth character
: >: > you have encountered.

: Another would probably be Frollo from Hunchback. He's just so
: real. And he's a religious man caught in that ever ubiquitous
: storyline of controlling his own lust. I honestly don't know if
: he wanted to kill esmerelda or get in bed with her. Well, I
: guess at the end he wanted to kill her, but for a while I was
: confused there.

--
"Sailor Moon Is Everyone's Mother." ------- Chibiusa, Sailor
Chibi-Moon



Sailor Quasar
d030...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us


Ed Murphy

unread,
Oct 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/18/96
to

Ahem. I *am* Darkwing Duck (in one particular realm), and I say you're yelling
over nothing. Of *course* Darkwing is a damnfool - that's half the point of the
show. Now calm down and figure out a way to break Liquidator of his every-line-
must-sound-like-a-commercial habit, but still be funny.

--
Ed Murphy <zvy...@ix.netcom.com> A person who is "of sound mind"
http://www.bayside.net/users/ford/ is one who keeps the inner madman
#include <std/disclaimer.h> under lock and key. -Paul Valery


Negaduck9

unread,
Oct 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/19/96
to

zvy...@ix.netcom.com (Ed Murphy) writes:

>Of *course* Darkwing is a damnfool - that's half the point of
>the
>show.

Perfect heroes are so dull. It's nice to see one you can laugh at, but
who you can still root for.

Darkwing: (grumbling) "Great. That's JUST how I want to be remembered!"

>Now calm down and figure out a way to break Liquidator of his
>every-line-
>must-sound-like-a-commercial habit, but still be funny.

You know what a pain it is to write dialogue for him and not repeat lines
he has already used? That's the main reason I haven't written much for
him.

BTW, in a few "Disney Adventues" stories Licky was speaking in *show
tunes*. Huh??

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages