Help! Reef Gods Help!

[scsig...@my-deja.com]

My current Reef tank is unfortunately just not working. I am
posting this in hopes that the experts on this board can some how help
me get this tank to the level I wish it to be. I started my first reef
in 1988 in fact a large portion of the rock in this tank is from that
original tank. During that time I have had successful tanks and not so
successful tanks. I moved to my current house about 4 years ago with my
then 240gal reef which was only about half full of rock but very nice.
About 3 years ago I decided to go with a smaller tank and had a glass
tank measuring 48”L X 22” W X 19” H constructed. I half to say that I
got so busy with work and life that the system was not much more than a
glass box full of rock for quite some time but I kept it lit and
clean. About 6 months ago I decided to set this tank up properly and
dive back into the hobby. I will list the details of my setup below but
first let me continue to give you an overview. At first everything went
well although coralline was hardly growing just surviving. I added a
sand bed flew in a sand starter kit from Hawaii along with a large
batch of snails. I took it slow only adding a few corals and everything
was going well no algae on the rocks to speak of only moderate brown
growth on the front of the sand bed. Well then the summer months came
and I live in a very warm area 110 is not unusual during the summer
months. Algae appeared all my snail suffered a mass die off (I have
never been able to keep snails) and now what I have is short but solid
growth of hair algae on my rock and nasty brown algae on the front of
my sand bed. There are two corals in the tank a colt coral and a open
brain both have continued to do well but have shown little signs of
growth. I will give you the specks below and maybe you can make some
recommendations. This was started from scratch with my old rock
approximately 6 month ago.

Tank: 48”X22”X19”H Glass

Lighting: 2-175 MH 5500K, 3 48” 40 watt 03s, 1 48” 40 watt 5000k,
housed in a canopy MH bulbs are 13” from the water surface. Lighting is
staggered from 10am – 10pm MH being on 12-5. All bulbs were changed
this month.

Sand Bed 1”-1.5” of fine grade Oolitic Aragonite reef sand

Skimmer: Turbo Floater fed directly from the corner overflow in the
tank.

Sump: 10 gal acrylic.

Pump: Iwaki 40RXLT

Carbon & phosgurad are run in a canister teed from the main pump.

Water: Natural seawater filtered and collected from a feed to Stephen
Birch Aquarium.

Make Up Water: 5-stage RO system

Temp: 81-84 82.5 average (summer) 76-78 (winter) (I think this is where
the problem lies?)

PH 8.15 in the am to 8.4 in the pm

Kalk is dripped 24/7

Seachem reef complete 2.0 ml per week

Seachem reef iodide 1.0 ml per week

Tank is not fed at this time only a few chromis reside

Nitrate: 0 tested with Aquarium Systems new reagents

Phosphate: 0 tested with Salifert new kit

Calcium & Alk within parameters specified by Sprung

Water change 10% per month
All I can figure to do is scrub the rock but I will be back in the same
mess in 10 days I am sure.

Help! Thanks!!!

Steven

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[nosmatt]

well you cant grow algae with light alone. there has to be some no3
and/or po4 to feed it. you say tank is not fed, however it houses green
cromis. now im not a fan of damsels, but being cruel and starving them
to death is not very nice!

i would have an independant source test your water with different test
kits and check there results. this should be a full spectrum of tests,
you didnt say what kind of test kits u have and if they are as old as
your lr. if they are old, replace them. all the acid reagent test kits
will go bad eventually. i learned this the hard way.
the fact that you cant keep snails alive suggests amonia or nitrite.
these orgs do not do well with those present.
i would add some hermits to help with the algae, and astareas do great
on brown algae, i prefer mexican turbos for green or hair algae.
keep us posted!

--
mmmmmm hippo......
-homer simpson

visit my web page
http://home.socal.rr.com/griffinsreef/home.socal.rr.com/reefpage.html

[Todd Scott]

What is this natural seawater source you are talking about? Do you know it
is free of pollution? Have you tried using a high quality synthetic salt to
make your own seawater? I would cut back on the lights. 2x 175w MH lamps and
1 actinic is all you need. Adding more is doing more harm than good. Not to
mention the adding heat to the already high water temp in the summer.

T. Scott

<scsig...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mcjv2$bgi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> staggered from 10am - 10pm MH being on 12-5. All bulbs were changed

[JBortz6469]

Wow, It sounds like you have all the right peices to the puzzle. The natural
saltwater is fabulous. I assume if the aquarium is using it is is great.
If nitrates are zero then you more than likely aren't having a lot of ammonia
that your tank isn't handling. I think an additional water tester like the
AQUARIUM might be a great Idea just to cover the basics. The only thing that
catches my eye is the fact that it seems like I understood this problem started
with the new lights. What type of algea are you growing. Is it the diatoms or
is it hair algea or what. Check the make up water for phospahates as well as
other unwanted elements. Perhaps it is not filtering as it should, how old is
the unit. The summer months seem to proliferate this type of problem my sea
grapes(algea) just up and crashed for no apparent reason. Are testing Calcium
because I didn't see that and you said your coraline wasn't doing well. If you
have algea it definitely needs nutrients to survive perhaps there is just
enough to be used up dailly by the algeas. any more info that might help?
Other wise it all sounds good.
Jamin

[JBortz6469]

me again, How old is your sand bed, also how long have you had the snails.
Have you tested for copper. Depending on were you got the rock it might have
absorbed lots of copper from a previous tank or the lfs might have dosed with
copper for there fish.
jamin

[JBortz6469]

I guess I just didn't read well enough Your rock is old well did you ever dose
with copper before when it was up and running before this tanks setup. That
could be why you cannot keep snails
Jamin

[JBortz6469]

once again, sorry to much to remember. I see about the calcium. Howver I
don't think your problem is the heat if those are your water temp perameters..
My tank is set at a break point of 79 degrees for night time. this keeps the
tan from going below that. During the day the tank hits 84-85. I have a
hammer, frogspawn, yellow poyps, 2 types xenia, chili coral, snails several
species , shrimp etc... actually way to much.
jamin

[scsig...@my-deja.com]

Jamin:

Wow thanks for all your time that was very nice of you! No copper
has ever been near my rock. I even worked at a very high-end reef store
when I was in college (long ago so old :-() and I kept up 10 reef
tanks. I am no novice and I just can’t figure this out. A buddy of mine
is the senior aquarist at a large aquarium here and he verifies my
water tests. I just don’t know what to do I guess I will pull the rock
and scrub it :-(.

Thanks

Steven

In article <20000803182547...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,

[nosmatt]

WHATS A GLOBE?

[scsig...@my-deja.com]

Symon:

Wow thank you so much for the long note very nice of you! Well the
MH are American made 5500K bulbs made for aquariums I have always used
5500k and supplemented with actinic to get the quality of light I
enjoy. I have had tanks that were quite spectacular this one just seems
to be trouble. You did mention something that caught my attention. This
is the first tank I have had that sits near a large French door (double
glass doors) this room is flooded all day with natural sunlight.
However for several months I had no algae growth and the tank has
always been where it is. In regard to lighting my corals have not
really been a problem in fact I had some stony coral frags that were
given to me that were doing great but when the algae bloom hit I
quickly gave them away. So you would not recommend a scrub? Think I
should try and reduce the temp and wait it out?

Steve

In article <3989...@pink.one.net.au>,
"Symon" <si...@bookhouse.com.auNOSPAM> wrote:
> Steven,
>
> Excellent description of your situation. I hope my limited knowledge
can
> help.

>
> > I took it slow only adding a few corals and everything
> > was going well no algae on the rocks to speak of only moderate brown
> > growth on the front of the sand bed.

> > All I can figure to do is scrub the rock but I will be back in the
same
> > mess in 10 days I am sure.
>

> The brown algae are diatoms. Nothing to be concerned about. Lowest
form of
> algae which can indicate a high level of silicate in the water.
Cleaning the
> rocks and sand won't help; after a day they will have returned. The
silicate
> is stored by the diatoms but the byproducts are smelly and will need
to be
> removed by your protein skimmer. Using activated carbon as you do is
also
> good---at this stage. The diatoms will usually disappear within a few
weeks,
> followed by the filamentous green algae which is the stuff that is
more
> difficult to get rid of. Getting to this stage, though, will indicate
the
> tank has matured a little. (Although it is probably well known, avoid
direct
> sunlight on your tank.) Many would say check your source water but is
not
> likely using RO, or natural sea water. On the other hand, I have heard
> disaster stories about using natural sea water, depending on where it
is
> from.

>
> > Well then the summer months came
> > and I live in a very warm area 110 is not unusual during the summer
> > months. Algae appeared all my snail suffered a mass die off (I have
> > never been able to keep snails) and now what I have is short but
solid
> > growth of hair algae on my rock and nasty brown algae on the front
of
> > my sand bed.
> > There are two corals in the tank a colt coral and a open
> > brain both have continued to do well but have shown little signs of
> > growth.
>

> > Temp: 81-84 82.5 average (summer) 76-78 (winter) (I think this is
where
> > the problem lies?)
>

> Temperature. I believe you are right: this is going to be a major
source of
> problems. With all the equipment you have, it is worth getting
yourself a
> chiller to keep the temperature at around 25C year round. Above 30C
corals
> will suffer. (Sorry about the celcius.) With heating and chilling,
you can
> add a seasonal temperature timer which will adjust the temperature of
your
> water over a year, a cycle which is believed to be one of the
triggers for
> coral spawning (there are others, such as lighting, see below). On
many
> natural reefs, the water temperature often doesn't change very much
over the
> whole year, but the range is significant enough for aquatic organisms
to
> notice.

>
> > Lighting: 2-175 MH 5500K, 3 48" 40 watt 03s, 1 48" 40 watt 5000k,
> > housed in a canopy MH bulbs are 13" from the water surface.
Lighting is
> > staggered from 10am - 10pm MH being on 12-5. All bulbs were changed
> > this month.
>

> I'm certainly no expert on lighting, but it would be interesting to
know the
> spectrum of output. MH lights include a level of UV radiation.
Depending on
> the globes you are using, there could be a level of UV which is bad
for
> corals in the long run. I often see it recommended to use at least two
> 10,000K daylight bulbs and a 6,500K to create good a light range
silimar to
> that in the shallows of a reef, but then it still depends on the
globes you
> are using. With all that lighting, it would be wise to be careful and
check
> the spectrum of output. Too much light below 400nm is not healthy for
corals
> in the long run. It appears you have some awesome lighting there; a
change
> of globes might do some good for your corals. A solar cycle timer
would be
> excellent; automatically adjusting the lighting period to simulate the
> seasons. You can program them to turn your flourescents on first,
then one
> MH at a time, and in reverse at sunset. More important is the type and
> output of the globes you are running.

>
> > Sand Bed 1"-1.5" of fine grade Oolitic Aragonite reef sand
> > Skimmer: Turbo Floater fed directly from the corner overflow in the
> > tank.
> > Sump: 10 gal acrylic.
> > Pump: Iwaki 40RXLT
>
> > Carbon & phosgurad are run in a canister teed from the main pump.
>

> Do you have powerheads to circulate the water within the tank? This
is very
> important. Some say 10 times the volume of your tank should pass
through the
> combination of filters and powerheads (or pumps used in wavemakers).
When
> you consider this, it is a lot of water to be moving around. I would
say a
> lack of water movement would contribute to a poor usage of the
bacteria
> which colonise the surface of the live rock, as well as leaving
pockets of
> water where anaerobic biological activity will take place, possibly
leading
> to a build-up, or even sudden rise, in the level of toxins,
especially those
> containing NO3. These are nutrients for algae.
>
> Don't run carbon filtration full time. Often this will cause the
corals to
> bleach if it used continuously over a long period of time. Use it for
the
> first few weeks of setup, but after that only 2-4 days per month, or
when
> the water becomes slightly coloured. Using carbon filtration has been
found
> to increase the transmittance of light through the water, after about
96
> hours of filtration. This will kind of polish the water without
taking too
> much out, or running the risk of the carbon leeching toxins into the
water.
> Additional use of carbon filtration may be removing too many desirable
> elements.

>
> > Water: Natural seawater filtered and collected from a feed to
Stephen
> > Birch Aquarium.
> > Make Up Water: 5-stage RO system

> > PH 8.15 in the am to 8.4 in the pm
> > Kalk is dripped 24/7
> > Seachem reef complete 2.0 ml per week
> > Seachem reef iodide 1.0 ml per week
> > Tank is not fed at this time only a few chromis reside
> > Nitrate: 0 tested with Aquarium Systems new reagents
> > Phosphate: 0 tested with Salifert new kit
> > Calcium & Alk within parameters specified by Sprung
> > Water change 10% per month
>

> It all seems fine but others may have had experience with the specific
> additives you are using.
>
> I couldn't work out what overall stocking of live rock you had, but
the more
> of that you can get in your tank will often mean more stable
conditions. You
> can put some in your sump, too (a simple fluorescent over the sump
would be
> good if you did this). Since you have a sand bed, keep a good level
of sand
> sifters and detritus eaters.
>
> Recommendations:
> 1. get a chiller (definitely!)
> 2. ensure your protein skimmer is working efficiently (is this
correctly
> sized?)
> 3. do some reading on lighting for the corals you are keeping and
check
> whether a change of globes might help (don't always believe what your
LFS
> tells you)
> 4. check your level of live rock and consider more if it will fit
> 5. double check that your calcium levels are correct for the kind of
tank
> you have, i.e. live rock/protein skimmer filtration
> 6. importantly, make sure you have a good deal of circulation going
in your
> tank. I've read recommendations of 10 times the volume of your tank
per
> hour. After you have subtracted the amount of times your protein
skimmer
> turns the tank per hour, get enough powerheads to make up the rest and
> position them to make currents and counter-currents.
>
> Good luck, Steven. Hope this helps.

[Deb Hadford]

I would for sure be feeding the tank to provide nutrients. I feed all
snails and crabs.

--
Deb
www.members.home.net/dhadford

"Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out."

- James B. Conant

<scsig...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mcjv2$bgi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> My current Reef tank is unfortunately just not working. I am
> posting this in hopes that the experts on this board can some how help
> me get this tank to the level I wish it to be. I started my first reef
> in 1988 in fact a large portion of the rock in this tank is from that
> original tank. During that time I have had successful tanks and not so
> successful tanks. I moved to my current house about 4 years ago with my
> then 240gal reef which was only about half full of rock but very nice.
> About 3 years ago I decided to go with a smaller tank and had a glass
> tank measuring 48”L X 22” W X 19” H constructed. I half to say that I
> got so busy with work and life that the system was not much more than a
> glass box full of rock for quite some time but I kept it lit and
> clean. About 6 months ago I decided to set this tank up properly and
> dive back into the hobby. I will list the details of my setup below but
> first let me continue to give you an overview. At first everything went
> well although coralline was hardly growing just surviving. I added a
> sand bed flew in a sand starter kit from Hawaii along with a large

> batch of snails. I took it slow only adding a few corals and everything

> was going well no algae on the rocks to speak of only moderate brown

> growth on the front of the sand bed. Well then the summer months came

> and I live in a very warm area 110 is not unusual during the summer
> months. Algae appeared all my snail suffered a mass die off (I have
> never been able to keep snails) and now what I have is short but solid
> growth of hair algae on my rock and nasty brown algae on the front of
> my sand bed. There are two corals in the tank a colt coral and a open
> brain both have continued to do well but have shown little signs of

> growth. I will give you the specks below and maybe you can make some
> recommendations. This was started from scratch with my old rock
> approximately 6 month ago.
>
> Tank: 48”X22”X19”H Glass
>

> Lighting: 2-175 MH 5500K, 3 48” 40 watt 03s, 1 48” 40 watt 5000k,
> housed in a canopy MH bulbs are 13” from the water surface. Lighting is

> staggered from 10am – 10pm MH being on 12-5. All bulbs were changed
> this month.
>

> Sand Bed 1”-1.5” of fine grade Oolitic Aragonite reef sand
>
> Skimmer: Turbo Floater fed directly from the corner overflow in the
> tank.
>
> Sump: 10 gal acrylic.
>
> Pump: Iwaki 40RXLT
>
> Carbon & phosgurad are run in a canister teed from the main pump.
>

> Water: Natural seawater filtered and collected from a feed to Stephen
> Birch Aquarium.
>
> Make Up Water: 5-stage RO system
>

> Temp: 81-84 82.5 average (summer) 76-78 (winter) (I think this is where
> the problem lies?)
>

> PH 8.15 in the am to 8.4 in the pm
>
> Kalk is dripped 24/7
>
> Seachem reef complete 2.0 ml per week
>
> Seachem reef iodide 1.0 ml per week
>
> Tank is not fed at this time only a few chromis reside
>
> Nitrate: 0 tested with Aquarium Systems new reagents
>
> Phosphate: 0 tested with Salifert new kit
>
> Calcium & Alk within parameters specified by Sprung
>
> Water change 10% per month

> All I can figure to do is scrub the rock but I will be back in the same
> mess in 10 days I am sure.
>

> Help! Thanks!!!
>
> Steven

[Symon]

Steven,

Excellent description of your situation. I hope my limited knowledge can
help.

> I took it slow only adding a few corals and everything

> was going well no algae on the rocks to speak of only moderate brown
> growth on the front of the sand bed.

> All I can figure to do is scrub the rock but I will be back in the same
> mess in 10 days I am sure.

The brown algae are diatoms. Nothing to be concerned about. Lowest form of

algae which can indicate a high level of silicate in the water. Cleaning the
rocks and sand won't help; after a day they will have returned. The silicate
is stored by the diatoms but the byproducts are smelly and will need to be
removed by your protein skimmer. Using activated carbon as you do is also
good---at this stage. The diatoms will usually disappear within a few weeks,
followed by the filamentous green algae which is the stuff that is more
difficult to get rid of. Getting to this stage, though, will indicate the
tank has matured a little. (Although it is probably well known, avoid direct
sunlight on your tank.) Many would say check your source water but is not
likely using RO, or natural sea water. On the other hand, I have heard
disaster stories about using natural sea water, depending on where it is
from.

> Well then the summer months came

> and I live in a very warm area 110 is not unusual during the summer
> months. Algae appeared all my snail suffered a mass die off (I have
> never been able to keep snails) and now what I have is short but solid
> growth of hair algae on my rock and nasty brown algae on the front of
> my sand bed.
> There are two corals in the tank a colt coral and a open
> brain both have continued to do well but have shown little signs of
> growth.

> Temp: 81-84 82.5 average (summer) 76-78 (winter) (I think this is where
> the problem lies?)

Temperature. I believe you are right: this is going to be a major source of

problems. With all the equipment you have, it is worth getting yourself a
chiller to keep the temperature at around 25C year round. Above 30C corals
will suffer. (Sorry about the celcius.) With heating and chilling, you can
add a seasonal temperature timer which will adjust the temperature of your
water over a year, a cycle which is believed to be one of the triggers for
coral spawning (there are others, such as lighting, see below). On many
natural reefs, the water temperature often doesn't change very much over the
whole year, but the range is significant enough for aquatic organisms to
notice.

> Lighting: 2-175 MH 5500K, 3 48" 40 watt 03s, 1 48" 40 watt 5000k,

> housed in a canopy MH bulbs are 13" from the water surface. Lighting is

> staggered from 10am - 10pm MH being on 12-5. All bulbs were changed
> this month.

I'm certainly no expert on lighting, but it would be interesting to know the

spectrum of output. MH lights include a level of UV radiation. Depending on
the globes you are using, there could be a level of UV which is bad for
corals in the long run. I often see it recommended to use at least two
10,000K daylight bulbs and a 6,500K to create good a light range silimar to
that in the shallows of a reef, but then it still depends on the globes you
are using. With all that lighting, it would be wise to be careful and check
the spectrum of output. Too much light below 400nm is not healthy for corals
in the long run. It appears you have some awesome lighting there; a change
of globes might do some good for your corals. A solar cycle timer would be
excellent; automatically adjusting the lighting period to simulate the
seasons. You can program them to turn your flourescents on first, then one
MH at a time, and in reverse at sunset. More important is the type and
output of the globes you are running.

> Sand Bed 1"-1.5" of fine grade Oolitic Aragonite reef sand

> Skimmer: Turbo Floater fed directly from the corner overflow in the
> tank.
> Sump: 10 gal acrylic.
> Pump: Iwaki 40RXLT

> Carbon & phosgurad are run in a canister teed from the main pump.

Do you have powerheads to circulate the water within the tank? This is very

important. Some say 10 times the volume of your tank should pass through the
combination of filters and powerheads (or pumps used in wavemakers). When
you consider this, it is a lot of water to be moving around. I would say a
lack of water movement would contribute to a poor usage of the bacteria
which colonise the surface of the live rock, as well as leaving pockets of
water where anaerobic biological activity will take place, possibly leading
to a build-up, or even sudden rise, in the level of toxins, especially those
containing NO3. These are nutrients for algae.

Don't run carbon filtration full time. Often this will cause the corals to
bleach if it used continuously over a long period of time. Use it for the
first few weeks of setup, but after that only 2-4 days per month, or when
the water becomes slightly coloured. Using carbon filtration has been found
to increase the transmittance of light through the water, after about 96
hours of filtration. This will kind of polish the water without taking too
much out, or running the risk of the carbon leeching toxins into the water.
Additional use of carbon filtration may be removing too many desirable
elements.

> Water: Natural seawater filtered and collected from a feed to Stephen

> Birch Aquarium.
> Make Up Water: 5-stage RO system

> PH 8.15 in the am to 8.4 in the pm
> Kalk is dripped 24/7
> Seachem reef complete 2.0 ml per week
> Seachem reef iodide 1.0 ml per week
> Tank is not fed at this time only a few chromis reside
> Nitrate: 0 tested with Aquarium Systems new reagents
> Phosphate: 0 tested with Salifert new kit
> Calcium & Alk within parameters specified by Sprung
> Water change 10% per month

It all seems fine but others may have had experience with the specific

[Symon]

Bulb. Sorry. Unintentional use of a synonym.

nosmatt <spama...@forn.cate.uk.or.net.com> wrote in message
news:3989FE9B...@forn.cate.uk.or.net.com...
>
> WHATS A GLOBE?
>
>
>

[dian...@my-deja.com]

In article <8md0cm$l5r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

I'd Increase the water movement and see if it helps before scrubbing
the rock. (add more power heads).
Diane.

[Symon]

Steve,

> Wow thank you so much for the long note very nice of you!

You're welcome, Steve. If you've had lots of experience with using the bulbs
you've got, then that doesn't seem like the problem. Did you consider the
issue of circulation in the tank?

> You did mention something that caught my attention. This
> is the first tank I have had that sits near a large French door (double
> glass doors) this room is flooded all day with natural sunlight.
> However for several months I had no algae growth and the tank has
> always been where it is.

Direct sunlight isn't great. Maybe the reason that things have been okay for
a few months is because a change of season might mean more direct/extended
duration of the sunlight hitting the tank? Just an idea. Maybe you could try
lighting the tank at night, and covering it during the day, to see if that
helps the tank stabilise.

> In regard to lighting my corals have not
> really been a problem in fact I had some stony coral frags that were
> given to me that were doing great but when the algae bloom hit I
> quickly gave them away. So you would not recommend a scrub? Think I
> should try and reduce the temp and wait it out?

I wouldn't bother with the scrub. If it's brown diatoms then they'll just
re-bloom within a day. I would definitely (absolutely!) get a chiller
working and stabilise the temperature of the tank. The diatoms die off very
quickly. Excess temperature (around 30C and above) inhibits higher organisms
from using the light in the tank for photosynthesis, so basic algae
prevails. Then maybe look at the sunlight hitting the tank and circulation.
Good luck. You sound experienced, so as you know patience is the key.

Symon

[scsig...@my-deja.com]

Symon:

Well circulation I think is good…I have a bar with 8 heads pointed
different directions that returns the water via that Iwaki 40RXLT which
is a monster pump 1200GPH@ 4’. Do you still think I need power heads?
I am going to add some heavy drapes to the door in that room and put
another fan in the hood hopefully that will do the trick… $700 for a
chiller is not out of bounds for me but it sure would be hard! By the
way it is brown diatoms on my sand bed and only the front area with the
max light but green hair is on my rocks not to long but looks bad just
the same.

Thanks

Steve

In article <398a...@pink.one.net.au>,
"Symon" <si...@bookhouse.com.auNOSPAM> wrote:
> Steve,

>
> > Wow thank you so much for the long note very nice of you!
>

> You're welcome, Steve. If you've had lots of experience with using
the bulbs
> you've got, then that doesn't seem like the problem. Did you consider
the
> issue of circulation in the tank?
>

> > You did mention something that caught my attention. This
> > is the first tank I have had that sits near a large French door
(double
> > glass doors) this room is flooded all day with natural sunlight.
> > However for several months I had no algae growth and the tank has
> > always been where it is.
>

> Direct sunlight isn't great. Maybe the reason that things have been
okay for
> a few months is because a change of season might mean more
direct/extended
> duration of the sunlight hitting the tank? Just an idea. Maybe you
could try
> lighting the tank at night, and covering it during the day, to see if
that
> helps the tank stabilise.
>

> > In regard to lighting my corals have not
> > really been a problem in fact I had some stony coral frags that were
> > given to me that were doing great but when the algae bloom hit I
> > quickly gave them away. So you would not recommend a scrub? Think I
> > should try and reduce the temp and wait it out?
>

> I wouldn't bother with the scrub. If it's brown diatoms then they'll
just
> re-bloom within a day. I would definitely (absolutely!) get a chiller
> working and stabilise the temperature of the tank. The diatoms die
off very
> quickly. Excess temperature (around 30C and above) inhibits higher
organisms
> from using the light in the tank for photosynthesis, so basic algae
> prevails. Then maybe look at the sunlight hitting the tank and
circulation.
> Good luck. You sound experienced, so as you know patience is the key.
>
> Symon
>
>

[nosmatt]

have you recently added some new lr or ls?
normally, the brown diatom bloom starts when the cycle is ending and the
nitrates are peaking. have you had this bloom for that long ? (6 months)

i stand by my original thought that there has to be food for the algae.
has to be.
there also has to be silicate or the diatoms would not be there, not
saying a very high amount, but some.
i know your pretty confidant of the po4 and no3 readings you have, but a
second opinion couldnt hurt.
does your skimmer produce any skimmate?

[scsig...@my-deja.com]

I have had my readings confirmed by my buddy at a public aquarium & my
reagents are all new. The brown diatoms are only present on the front
10% of my sand bed where light is the most intense. The bloom has been
around for a couple months now. My skimmer does collect a nice dark
liquid about 1 cup per week. In terms of the silicate if it is indeed
present what can be done?

Thanks Steve

In article <398A260A...@socal.rr.com>,

[Tim Houghton]

Symon,

Before you go spend $1000+ on a chiller you should read this:

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/reef_temperature.html

HTH,

Tim

--
Tim Houghton's Marine Critter Page - http://www.typhoon8.net/reef/

[Tim Houghton]

Oops that should have been to Steve, not Symon.

[Symon]

I read this anyway, Tim. Thanks for the reference. This is a really
interesting discussion.

After reading it I still believe I would err on the side of caution in the
aquarium, since the conditions in there are never as stable as the ocean
itself, in other ways than temperature. Maybe keeping a stable temperature,
with less seasonal variation, is one way we can help stability? What do you
think? I couldn't work out if Steve's tank was reaching above 30C in summer,
but this would be bad in any situation. In this instance something should be
done about the temperature.

Chillers are so expensive! Scary. Maybe an air-conditioner for the room
would be cheaper?

Symon

Tim Houghton <houg...@pacific.net.hk> wrote in message
news:398A3C56...@pacific.net.hk...

[Symon]

Steve,

Sounds like a big enough pump. Should be fine as long as they are
circulating the water through the whole tank. Chillers are so expensive! Try
other chilling methods, like fans pointed across the water's surface. You'll
need a method of cooling the tank if it's going above 30C (what is that in
F?) in the direct sunlight, especially for extended periods during summer.
Good luck with the drapes, that seems like a good idea. I'd be interested in
knowing how the tank is going after you've blocked out the direct sunlight.
Maybe covering the tank itself would be cheaper? That way you could enjoy
your sun-drenched room. Just a thought. You could move the light cycle of
the tank until after dusk. Good luck.

Symon

<scsig...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8md6nr$peb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Symon:
>
> Well circulation I think is good.I have a bar with 8 heads pointed

> different directions that returns the water via that Iwaki 40RXLT which
> is a monster pump 1200GPH@ 4'. Do you still think I need power heads?
> I am going to add some heavy drapes to the door in that room and put

> another fan in the hood hopefully that will do the trick. $700 for a

> chiller is not out of bounds for me but it sure would be hard! By the
> way it is brown diatoms on my sand bed and only the front area with the
> max light but green hair is on my rocks not to long but looks bad just
> the same.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> In article <398a...@pink.one.net.au>,
> "Symon" <si...@bookhouse.com.auNOSPAM> wrote:
> > Steve,
> >

> > > Wow thank you so much for the long note very nice of you!
> >

> > You're welcome, Steve. If you've had lots of experience with using
> the bulbs
> > you've got, then that doesn't seem like the problem. Did you consider
> the
> > issue of circulation in the tank?
> >

> > > You did mention something that caught my attention. This
> > > is the first tank I have had that sits near a large French door
> (double
> > > glass doors) this room is flooded all day with natural sunlight.
> > > However for several months I had no algae growth and the tank has
> > > always been where it is.
> >

> > Direct sunlight isn't great. Maybe the reason that things have been
> okay for
> > a few months is because a change of season might mean more
> direct/extended
> > duration of the sunlight hitting the tank? Just an idea. Maybe you
> could try
> > lighting the tank at night, and covering it during the day, to see if
> that
> > helps the tank stabilise.
> >

> > > In regard to lighting my corals have not
> > > really been a problem in fact I had some stony coral frags that were
> > > given to me that were doing great but when the algae bloom hit I
> > > quickly gave them away. So you would not recommend a scrub? Think I
> > > should try and reduce the temp and wait it out?
> >

> > I wouldn't bother with the scrub. If it's brown diatoms then they'll
> just
> > re-bloom within a day. I would definitely (absolutely!) get a chiller
> > working and stabilise the temperature of the tank. The diatoms die
> off very
> > quickly. Excess temperature (around 30C and above) inhibits higher
> organisms
> > from using the light in the tank for photosynthesis, so basic algae
> > prevails. Then maybe look at the sunlight hitting the tank and
> circulation.
> > Good luck. You sound experienced, so as you know patience is the key.
> >
> > Symon
> >
> >
>
>

[Tim Houghton]

Hi Symon,

Erring on the side of caution is all well and good, but Steve's max temp
is only 84 and his average is 82.5. I was only saying that $1000 is a
lot to spend especially if he is not sure he really needs to. I think
Dr. Shimek is also recommending stability rather than one set
temperature. It seems to me that creatures who normally live in 82F
water could withstand a spike to, say, 90F better than creatures who
normally live in 76F water although this could be wishful thinking ;)

FWIW I have one small tank with no heater that _never_ goes below 80F
(27C) (even in what passes for the dead of winter over here) and hits
90F (34C) every day in the summer. No difficult corals or fish in it
though - mushrooms, polyps, shrimp and two small hardy fish. I wouldn't
try this with anything delicate.

Oh BTW the air-con idea is cheaper (and more comfortable) in the short
run but _much_ more expensive in the long run. If you have a fishroom it
may be worth air-conditioning it - for just one tank in a living room or
something it is probably not.

Cheers,

Tim

[DefLizard]

After reading all the answers in this thread, which are all in
themselves good, did not really answer the posters original problems,
keeping snails alive and brown algae growth (diatoms? maybe?) I don't
have a reef :( but have all sorts of algae, diatoms and cyano's growing.
It all depends on the depth of where they are. My lamps are
predominantly 6500°K, however, temp designations do not always tell
the full story. Some lamps also have peaks in the 3kK, 4kK and 5kK
areas, which really stimulates diatom growth (the lower, closer to
sunlight K temps) In fact sunlight is NOT beneficial unless your tank is
more then one meter deep and the light is vertical, so the natural
filtration of spectrums occurs. I suggest having a minimum of 6500°K
lamps or even going to 10,000°K which is what natural sunlight really
corresponds to when simulating conditions in the ocean. I would also
shield the tank from direct sunlight! This idea mainly comes from
people keeping FW and Plants! The formula for diatom or algae growth is:
spectrum and intensity of light (both lower) and nutrients (silicates
and phosphates, primarily). Light spectrum correction is clearly
indicated. The biggest problem is the water! Most all problems keeping
any life form is water quality. Just because you get seawater from a
"reliable" source does not insure high quality. Our (read eastern
Pacific coast) seawater contains constituents, that, when used in very
large and recirculating quantities, (as a public aquarium, with all
their facilities) may be more forgiving then in an individual small
aquarium. I know for a fact that Catalina® Brand natural seawater's pH
is 8 or even lower, and requires buffering. There might also be a very
small but significant amount of copper in the water, that is
unmeasurable under most conditions. (try a polyfilter and do the color
change test, if it changes color, you have copper in the water). IMVHO I
would re-examine the light situations and change your water sources.
Increasing circulation is a very good idea, in any case. IME's hobbyist
type test kits are notoriously innacurate, especially when confronted
with contradictory results. When things are happening that should
indicate some chemical or constituents being present, and none are shown
after testing, I would suspect the test methods or equipment involved.
There is a method to this madness, we only have to discard our
paradigms! LOL

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 4:38pm (PDT+16)
From: houg...@pacific.net.hk (Tim Houghton) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[RodBuehler]

I am coming in way late on this thread.. I probably shouldnt even post, but
brown algae and snails dying?? sounds like a dinoflagellates problem to me
Rod Buehler
http://www.rodsreef.com

[JBortz6469]

Hey def good to see hear from you. I will disagree with all of you with the
natural sunlight issue. I have no degrees in biology or scientific papers to
present only my own personal experience.
First, why does the group feel sunlight is bad. is it not beneficial or
because of potential algea blooms.

I can say that nothing effects my tank than when the sun shines throught the
skylights and hits my tank for two hours. I have not had an algea diatom or
hair algea problem at all.
It is only recently that I have had a daitom problem do to the fact that I
changed water supplier. Now I am running 1.0 for phosphates, yes I am working
on fixing that.

However, prior to that I have had no problem. furthermore, when the sun hits
my tank my frogspaw, hammer, xenia, polyps, anenome, even my CHILI believe it
or not swells to unbelievable levels and as soon as the sun is gone they
shrink.
I cannot see how this is a bad thing.

Second the poster asked if silicates are present how can you get rid of them. I
to would like to know.
Jamin

[Charles J DeVito]

Just one quick note....

DefLizard <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29937-39...@storefull-108.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
<<aquarium. I know for a fact that CatalinaŽ Brand natural seawater's pH

is 8 or even lower, and requires buffering. >>

Get a few gallons of water direct from the Catalina Water Co and test things
out. You'll find that test results are generally much superior to tests of
CWC water purchased from LFS. Draw your own conclusions from there.

CWC does have a few faults, but I use it and my tanks pH runs around 8.4-8.6
without prepping the CWC water.

--
Charles J DeVito
Ravenheart Enterprises
rh...@gte.net

[DefLizard]

Charles, do you mean they are 'diluting' the water???? ;)

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 7:53pm (PDT+7)
From: rh...@gte.net (Charles J DeVito) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

Just one quick note....
DefLizard <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29937-39...@storefull-108.iap.bryant.webtv.net... <<aquarium.

I know for a fact that Catalina® Brand natural seawater's pH is 8 or

even lower, and requires buffering. >>
Get a few gallons of water direct from the Catalina Water Co and test
things out. You'll find that test results are generally much superior to
tests of CWC water purchased from LFS. Draw your own conclusions from
there.
CWC does have a few faults, but I use it and my tanks pH runs around
8.4-8.6 without prepping the CWC water.
--
Charles J DeVito
Ravenheart Enterprises
rh...@gte.net

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[DefLizard]

Ah yes, thru the skylights, like I said, a vertical source, the way its
in nature. The problem is horizontal sunlight, which is not quite the
same, plus this posters tank is fueling diatoms, and I suspect his
water, no matter what his tests show. Raise your hands, how many have
skylights right above your tanks? So far just one, you! ;)) Good to
'see' you too! Getting rid of silicates, hmmmm, change water source,
RO/DI processing?? Ocean water??

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 7:16pm (PDT+7)
From: jbort...@aol.com (JBortz6469) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[Charles J DeVito]

DefLizard <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:16050-39...@storefull-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

<Charles, do you mean they are 'diluting' the water???? ;)>

Not so much as 'watering it down', I think. ;>
A couple years back I spot checked a bunch of LFS in the area and after
spotting the low calcium, low pH, high nitrates found in the CWC water at
several stores (but not at others), I really wouldn't be surprised to find
out some places take their waste water from water changes on their tanks and
toss it into the CWC vats. Needless to say, I -highly- recommending testing
the water if you purchase CWC's product from local shops.

[DefLizard]

As Arté Johnson would have said: "Verrrrrry Interrrrrresting!
Hmmmmmm!"

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 10:55pm (PDT+7)
From: rh...@gte.net (Charles J DeVito) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[DefLizard]

There was anther post on a similar vein, where the aquarists test kit
showed zero copper, but his poly filter turned the color indicating
copper was in the water, and his inverts were dying. Was that green or
purple or blue or violet, can anyone remember? I'm too lazy and hot to
do a Deja search! Help help help! ;))

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Sat, Aug 5, 2000, 12:04am (PDT+8)
From: g...@btinternet.com (bodysnatcher) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!
Sorry to butt into a very interesting post, but Deflizard mentioned
"(try a polyfilter and do the colour
change test, if it changes colour, you have copper in the water)." What
colour does it turn? Is it correct to say polyfilter is white (mine is
anyway)
Hang on to your Hopes.
Because one day they may be all U have.

"DefLizard" <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:29937-39...@storefull-108.iap.bryant.webtv.net... After

reading all the answers in this thread, which are all in themselves
good, did not really answer the posters original problems, keeping
snails alive and brown algae growth (diatoms? maybe?) I don't have a
reef :( but have all sorts of algae, diatoms and cyano's growing. It all
depends on the depth of where they are. My lamps are predominantly
6500°K, however, temp designations do not always tell the full story.
Some lamps also have peaks in the 3kK, 4kK and 5kK areas, which really
stimulates diatom growth (the lower, closer to sunlight K temps) In fact
sunlight is NOT beneficial unless your tank is more then one meter deep
and the light is vertical, so the natural filtration of spectrums
occurs. I suggest having a minimum of 6500°K lamps or even going to
10,000°K which is what natural sunlight really corresponds to when
simulating conditions in the ocean. I would also shield the tank from
direct sunlight! This idea mainly comes from people keeping FW and
Plants! The formula for diatom or algae growth is: spectrum and
intensity of light (both lower) and nutrients (silicates and phosphates,
primarily). Light spectrum correction is clearly indicated. The biggest
problem is the water! Most all problems keeping any life form is water
quality. Just because you get seawater from a "reliable" source does not
insure high quality. Our (read eastern Pacific coast) seawater contains
constituents, that, when used in very large and recirculating
quantities, (as a public aquarium, with all their facilities) may be

more forgiving then in an individual small aquarium. I know for a fact

that Catalina® Brand natural seawater's pH is 8 or even lower, and

requires buffering. There might also be a very small but significant
amount of copper in the water, that is unmeasurable under most
conditions. (try a polyfilter and do the color change test, if it
changes color, you have copper in the water). IMVHO I would re-examine
the light situations and change your water sources. Increasing
circulation is a very good idea, in any case. IME's hobbyist type test
kits are notoriously innacurate, especially when confronted with
contradictory results. When things are happening that should indicate
some chemical or constituents being present, and none are shown after
testing, I would suspect the test methods or equipment involved. There
is a method to this madness, we only have to discard our paradigms!  
  LOL
Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 4:38pm (PDT+16)

From: houg...@pacific.net.hk (Tim Houghton) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[Symon]

> I can say that nothing effects my tank than when the sun shines throught
the
> skylights and hits my tank for two hours. I have not had an algea diatom
or
> hair algea problem at all.

This sounds like a great idea. I believe a couple of hours of sunlight is
fine, but would avoid elongated periods. Algae bloom seems to be most
negative effect. See below.

> Second the poster asked if silicates are present how can you get rid of
them. I
> to would like to know.

The only way I know of is to use distilled or RO water changes. The silicate
concentration should be low, even nil if it's a good unit. Diatoms use
silicate when their cells divide, so a bloom in diatoms will also mean
consumption of silicate.

Since there is always a level of silicate in the water, a new bloom will
indicate that the silicate content of the water has increased OR that the
water conditions have been changed suddenly, e.g. high organic pollution of
the aquarium water or a change in light quality. Excess sunlight, as
suggested to Steve, might be the change in light quality that is causing the
problem, since he uses 5-stage RO for water changes. Shorter periods of
light may have been manageable within the tank, as in Jamin's situation, but
a change of season could mean longer hours and more direct light.

Symon

[bodysnatcher]

Sorry to butt into a very interesting post, but Deflizard mentioned "(try a
polyfilter and do the colour

change test, if it changes colour, you have copper in the water)." What
colour does it turn? Is it correct to say polyfilter is white (mine is
anyway)
Hang on to your Hopes.
Because one day they may be all U have.

"DefLizard" <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29937-39...@storefull-108.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

[Deb Hadford]

Way way before my time, Def........

--
Deb
www.members.home.net/dhadford

"Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out."

- James B. Conant

"DefLizard" <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22372-39...@storefull-106.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

As Arté Johnson would have said: "Verrrrrry Interrrrrresting!
Hmmmmmm!"

Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Fri, Aug 4, 2000, 10:55pm (PDT+7)

From: rh...@gte.net (Charles J DeVito) Re: Help! Reef Gods Help!

DefLizard <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message

[DefLizard]

Charles: With what you have found and reported, I certainly owe CWC an
apology for inadvertently casting any dispersions, which certainly, was
not intended.

[Charles J DeVito]

DefLizard <defl...@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:25725-39...@storefull-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

<<Charles: With what you have found and reported, I certainly owe CWC an
apology for inadvertently casting any dispersions, which certainly, was
not intended.>>

I wouldn't neccessarily apologize to them just yet. They've been contacted
about this issue (the potential that their product is being tampered with at
retailers) and, while they express concern, they have yet to take any action
to police or rectify it. They've largely ignored the problem for at least
the last 18 months, and I know I'm not the only one to bring it to their
attention.

[Tim Houghton]

Hi greyhand,

Welcome to the hobby. Interesting post, but you're a bit off base about
lighting - a metal halide lamp, no matter how bright it seems to us,
literally pales into insignifcance when compared to the sun. Check out a
few hobby books for basic info on light in the tropics at noon compared
to a tank (something like 20 or 30 times greater).

The artificial rock thing has been done. http://www.garf.org has some
interesting info and images if you can wade through the site design. On
the other hand some argue that live rock is a renewable resource which
can easily withstand managed harvesting so environmentalists shouldn't
harp on so much about it ;)

All IME, IMO, UFO, MVP blah blah blah

Cheers,

Tim

greyhand wrote:
>
> I was starting to wonder if I was the only one that has dove in waters
> which are basically a constant 88 degrees F.
>
> Those coral heads seemed to be doing ok:)
>
> No sand substrate either, in fact, most everything at the sand level
> was dead coral.
>
> As far as I could tell, most of the ocean was a desert.
> Coral, and any other life forms, were very rare.
>
> It also seemed to me that the sun light was drastically reduced after
> only 10 or 20 feet down. One can tell by the colors. I had to use a
> light in daytime to see colors.
>
> Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to put a metal halide 18 inches
> above coral that lives 30 feet under in nature.
>
> I'm a newbie to this hobby, and while I have spent some time in a
> tropical ocean, I have yet to start my reef tank.
>
> I can say one thing though, I won't be going along with the general
> population on most of these methods.
>
> They just don't make sense to me.
>
> Granted, it depends on the creatures you're trying to keep. but most
> of what I read here, and in half the "scientific" articles, seems to
> be missing the proverbial boat.
>
> The one thing I do congratulate this community on is there efforts on
> "farm raised" critters. Although, watching one dive boats anchor chew
> up yards upon yards of prime live coral reef can make it seem a
> hopeless endeavor at times, the effort must still be made.
>
> Keep up the work on raising critters.
> I'd like to see more farm raised live rock though.
> Everybody wants live rock now.
> The "new" craze.
>
> Artificial live rock would be the current goal.
> Put a cinder block in the ocean for a few months, and you get live
> rock. Well, maybe not with all the desired attributes - but you catch
> my drift.
>
> A cinder block made out of tums?
>
> Keeping the oceans intact won't hurt our hobby.
> It is my feeling that our hobby will eventually help.
> It isn't just the rain forests that are disappearing.
> It is everything.
>
> Then, of course, there is always Mars.