natural seawater vs. marine salts
mdp...@my-deja.com
medium for use in a closed recirculating system (home marine aquarium).
There is signifintatly less bio-mass (live stock) per volume of ocean
water than what is found in the home salt water aquarium.
Natural seawater, besides containing parasites, has no way to replenish
itself in the home aquaria.
A good marine salt will out perform natural seawater.
Check; www.marineaquariums.net for a comparison of marine salts to
nataural seawater. Also, check the assay of Instant Ocean and BIO-
SEA. These are two indepth assays performed by a US Govt. testing
lab. A real eye opener. We all thought Instant Ocean was at least,
1/2 good. Not according to this independent report. Now we know why
brown algae, droping pH and fish mortality are caused by.
Check this at: www.marineaquariums.net.
Thanks
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Eric Chace Olivares
that "marine environment" salt. I'm not affiliated w/ anyone. Except
myself.
-=Eric
mdp...@my-deja.com wrote:
: Natural seawater, at its very best, unpolluted form is not the best
--
Eric C. Olivares
Department of Genetics
Stanford University School of Medicine
olivares at stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~olivares/
Michael Raffa
conflicting. Natural Seawater varies from ocean to ocean and from location
to location. The levels are completely different for a reef in the Red Sea
Vs. the Marshall Islands. And the same goes for locals in the Atlantic.
Instant Ocean probably tries to achieve an average composition for all
locals. I'm not employed or support Instant Ocean in any such way, the point
that one always needs to keep in mind, USE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOUR SYSTEM.
No two systems are ever identical, it's impossible. The bioloads, needs of
the inhabitants, vary from system to system. Just my opinion.
Thanks,
Mike
jerse...@home.com
mdp...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7qmtge$840$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Craig Bingman
>Natural seawater, at its very best, unpolluted form is not the best
>medium for use in a closed recirculating system (home marine aquarium).
>There is signifintatly less bio-mass (live stock) per volume of ocean
>water than what is found in the home salt water aquarium.
So?
>Natural seawater, besides containing parasites, has no way to replenish
>itself in the home aquaria.
And any type of synthetic seawater has a way to "replenish" itself, by
itself? I don't think so.
>A good marine salt will out perform natural seawater.
An if you want to know what a good marine salt is.... <drum roll>
>Check; www.marineaquariums.net for a comparison of marine salts to
>nataural seawater. Also, check the assay of Instant Ocean and BIO-
>SEA. These are two indepth assays performed by a US Govt. testing
>lab. A real eye opener. We all thought Instant Ocean was at least,
>1/2 good. Not according to this independent report. Now we know why
>brown algae, droping pH and fish mortality are caused by.
There is a report that must be ten years old at this point. There is a
lame-assed score that was constructed to favor the salt being
advertized.
You know, you just wasted the two domain names that you have. There
isn't any point in spamming the newsgroup with both names on the same
day.
Craig
--
Craig Bingman
Eric Chace Olivares <oliv...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Sheesh! If these results are to be believed, I'm in the market for some of
>that "marine environment" salt. I'm not affiliated w/ anyone. Except
>myself.
You are being sarcastic now, aren't you?
This S-15 report is old news. There is really no reason to believe that
it applies to contemporary versions of these brands of salts, except in
some generalities (e.g. many salts omit bromide and have only traces of
Br- that comes in as impurities in other ingredients.)
Ben Chase
: Natural seawater, at its very best, unpolluted form is not the best
: medium for use in a closed recirculating system (home marine aquarium).
But, why, duh, if you had access to natural seawater, would you run a
tank as a "closed recirculating system"? Buy a pickup truck, and
lotsa rubbermaid trashcans, or something more clever than that (I'm
thinking of one of those big plastic tanks that municipalities use to
water/clean/poison things living near pavement), and start doing big
water changes for very little $$.
: There is signifintatly less bio-mass (live stock) per volume of ocean
: water than what is found in the home salt water aquarium.
And your point is?
: Natural seawater, besides containing parasites, has no way to replenish
: itself in the home aquaria.
Um, I was thinking you could just get more from the ocean. If you're
really worried about parasites, maybe you could heat the NSW just a
little to kill all of them. (Warning: I've never tried heating it.)
Whether you heat it or not, next let it settle covered in the cool and
dark for several weeks. Then use all but the dregs.
: A good marine salt will out perform natural seawater.
If you really have access to natural seawater, then this is bullshit.
Use a spell checker, hire someone with more smarts than you, and take
the result to an appropriate newsgroup. (I cannot guarantee that
blurbs as stupid as yours would even be welcome in *.marketplace,
though.)
- Ben
Adam Granatella
> tank as a "closed recirculating system"? Buy a pickup truck, and
> lotsa rubbermaid trashcans, or something more clever than that (I'm
> thinking of one of those big plastic tanks that municipalities use to
> water/clean/poison things living near pavement), and start doing big
> water changes for very little $$.
So let's see...with your method I'd need to buy a pickup truck, some big
plastic tank, some way to get the water from the ocean into the tank then
into the pickup truck...water is pretty heavy you know...
Or I can spend $50 per 200g (shipping included) for instant ocean, $3 a
piece for 5 or so 5-6g buckets, and use my tap water (which fortunately for
me is free of most problematic chemicals), or worst case spend money on a
good RO/DI unit... I still come out spending several tens of thousands of
dollars less...
> Use a spell checker, hire someone with more smarts than you, and take
> the result to an appropriate newsgroup. (I cannot guarantee that
> blurbs as stupid as yours would even be welcome in *.marketplace,
> though.)
Was this really necessary?
deflizard
they what are all these people talking about (the S-15 Report) You mean
there's another standard! Maybe there comparing the seawater in your
toilet. What are you talking about? The STANDARD IS SEAWATER, WHERE, BY
THE WAY IS WHERE ALL MARINE LIFE COMES FROM!!! of course, the
comparative standard sample comes from 10,000 fathoms under the Mindanao
Trench, and brought up to the surface after careful decompression! Where
does the report show the occurance of parasites as a significant item of
comparison. For all you aquarists, and everyone else, your brown algae,
droping pH and fish mortalities can now be rightfuly traced, and the
REAL BLAME LAID AT THE PROPER DOOR STEP: because your fish come from
ocean sea water. Lets start a campaign to replace Natural Sea Water
Brand(tm) with the best thing around, better than sea water! ITS
BIO-SEA, which has more naturally occuring elements than the REAL THING!
BTW, there is a way to replenish the sea water in your aquarium, just
leave the tank submerged in the ocean, in the summer and fall, the water
will evaporate, but during the winter and spring, the rain will refill
your aquarium!
Group: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 10:25pm (PDT+7)
From: mdp...@my-deja.com natural seawater vs. marine salts Natural
seawater, at its very best, unpolluted form is not the best medium for
use in a closed recirculating system (home marine aquarium). There is
signifintatly less bio-mass (live stock) per volume of ocean water than
what is found in the home salt water aquarium. Natural seawater,
besides containing parasites, has no way to replenish itself in the home
aquaria. A good marine salt will out perform natural seawater.
Check; www.marineaquariums.net for a comparison of marine salts to
nataural seawater. Also, check the assay of Instant Ocean and BIO- SEA.
These are two indepth assays performed by a US Govt. testing lab. A real
eye opener. We all thought Instant Ocean was at least, 1/2 good. Not
according to this independent report. Now we know why brown algae,
droping pH and fish mortality are caused by. Check this at:
deflizard
must be the smell of all that sea-water! I do know that there's no full
moon out there!
Steve Wolfe
> medium for use in a closed recirculating system (home marine aquarium).
>
> There is signifintatly less bio-mass (live stock) per volume of ocean
> water than what is found in the home salt water aquarium.
Uh.... WHAT? If you're talking stricly about life in the water, then
water from the reefs has a couple orders of magnitude more plankton than
water from our tanks...
> Natural seawater, besides containing parasites,
I don't think there are any reef tanks that don't have at least some
parasites, anyway.
> has no way to replenish
> itself in the home aquaria.
Yeah, and synthetic water does?
> A good marine salt will out perform natural seawater.
A good marine salt very closely matches natural sea-water, with the
possible exception of a higher alkalinity.
> Check; www.marineaquariums.net for a comparison of marine salts to
> nataural seawater. Also, check the assay of Instant Ocean and BIO-
> SEA. These are two indepth assays performed by a US Govt. testing
> lab. A real eye opener. We all thought Instant Ocean was at least,
> 1/2 good. Not according to this independent report.
Many of the claims you make about a "good" salt mix are highly
questionable. Not only that, but you ignore the fact that unless you're
using ultra-high grade chemicals (read: Your salt costs $300 per
bucket), you're getting a decent level of impurities in it anyway.
Oh - and as for all of those trace elements that you say are so
important, of course you realize that many of them will be depleted
pretty quickly, don't you? You seem to ignore that fact... unless, of
course, we're using your super-dooper salt to do 100% water changes
every week, then it's not going to do us any more benefit than other
salts, now is it?
> Now we know why
> brown algae,
Heh.... anyone who thinks that brown algae is caused by which salt you
use either has something wrong with their thinking, or their tank is
teetering on the edge of algal overrun anyway. : )
> droping pH
Actually, of all of the salts tested by Craig Bingman, Instant Ocean's
buffering system most closely resembled that of NSW. Dropping pH is
almost universally caused by the hobbyist's failure to keep the
alkalinity up or use a buffer with the proper ratios of buffering
species, not which salt you use...
> and fish mortality are caused by.
Yeah, ammonia, starvation, tuberculosis, brooklynella, things like
that. Last time I checked, there weren't any well-known brands of
marine salt horrid enough to kill a fish.
Since your basis is strictly to sell your own salt, of course you're
going to try and make it look good. For a view that isn't strictly
controlled by money, perhaps you should read Craig Bingman's assay of
various marine salts. Of course, I highly doubt that you will, since
your only intention was probably to spam the newsgroup and advertise
your products.
steve
--
---------------------------------------
Domain name for replies is "inconnect".
---------------------------------------
Ben Chase
:> But, why, duh, if you had access to natural seawater, would you run a
:> tank as a "closed recirculating system"? Buy a pickup truck, and
:> lotsa rubbermaid trashcans, or something more clever than that (I'm
:> thinking of one of those big plastic tanks that municipalities use to
:> water/clean/poison things living near pavement), and start doing big
:> water changes for very little $$.
: So let's see...with your method I'd need to buy a pickup truck, some big
: plastic tank, some way to get the water from the ocean into the tank then
: into the pickup truck...water is pretty heavy you know...
: Or I can spend $50 per 200g (shipping included) for instant ocean, $3 a
: piece for 5 or so 5-6g buckets, and use my tap water (which fortunately for
: me is free of most problematic chemicals), or worst case spend money on a
: good RO/DI unit... I still come out spending several tens of thousands of
: dollars less...
Several tens of thousands??? You're going to live near the ocean
with, and put salt water into, one of those new, tarted-up trucks?
No, spend $5k or $6k for a _used_ truck. Plus, it is unfair to charge
that entire expense to your water changing budget, because most of the
time, you have a fun p/u truck to use as you wish. (What can I say, I
like p/u trucks.) And maybe you're doing 100g water changes per
month. Once a month, you take your truck, with its 100g tank, to the
beach, unroll the hose, turn on the pump. Spend a fun day at the
beach. Drive home, run the hose to the tank in the garage, pump the
water into that other tank. Wait two weeks, turn on other pumps to do
your water change.
In your way of doing things, I need the salt, I need the RO/DI water,
I need to pay the water bill, I need to buy new membranes or
replace/recharge the resin. I need to worry that my RO or DI system
needs maintenance, and must do tests to find out if they do. And then
I need to worry about my test results.
Plus, because each additional gallon costs the same amount of money,
there is a tendency (I argue) to skimp on water changes. In my way of
doing things, you buy into the plan up front, and each additional
gallon of water you exchange is relatively cheap and simple. And if
you bother to take the tank out of your truck each month, you have a
fun pickup truck the rest of the time.
And if you really are into fun ideas, you might consider just doing
the water change with newly gotten sea water, rather than letting it
age, to see what will settle and grow in your tank.
Finally, I will say that just looking at the bottom line $$ is not
typical in the aquarium hobby. I note that sailfin mollies are
cheaper than almost any creature you will find in your tank, or any
marine tank of most readers of this newsgroup, yet they will live in
salt water. There is a lot of head-scratching in this hobby, trying
to figure out how to avoid water changes without harming the tank.
Consider this a proposal for the opposite approach - how to make
massive water changes as cheap, painless, and worry-free as possible.
Perhaps a better tank would result?
:> Use a spell checker, hire someone with more smarts than you, and take
:> the result to an appropriate newsgroup. (I cannot guarantee that
:> blurbs as stupid as yours would even be welcome in *.marketplace,
:> though.)
: Was this really necessary?
Will anything kinder than this cause him to go away?
- Ben Chase
Adam Granatella
> with, and put salt water into, one of those new, tarted-up trucks?
> No, spend $5k or $6k for a _used_ truck. Plus, it is unfair to charge
> that entire expense to your water changing budget, because most of the
> time, you have a fun p/u truck to use as you wish. (What can I say, I
> like p/u trucks.) And maybe you're doing 100g water changes per
> month. Once a month, you take your truck, with its 100g tank, to the
> beach, unroll the hose, turn on the pump. Spend a fun day at the
> beach. Drive home, run the hose to the tank in the garage, pump the
> water into that other tank. Wait two weeks, turn on other pumps to do
> your water change.
Ok...so $5k for a truck...you still didn't mention how you're getting all of
that water into the tanks in the truck then into the house in the tank.
Then again, you didn't mention where you're getting the water from.
Hopefully not from the shore, where people are swimming and leaving who
knows what in the water :)
> In your way of doing things, I need the salt, I need the RO/DI water,
> I need to pay the water bill, I need to buy new membranes or
> replace/recharge the resin. I need to worry that my RO or DI system
> needs maintenance, and must do tests to find out if they do. And then
> I need to worry about my test results.
Salt, $50 for 200g delivered to my door...RO/DI water IMO isn't all that
necessary, since my tap water tests out fine...I'll admit that many people
don't have tap water that is usable in a marine system, so this is one where
you got me...
> Plus, because each additional gallon costs the same amount of money,
> there is a tendency (I argue) to skimp on water changes. In my way of
> doing things, you buy into the plan up front, and each additional
> gallon of water you exchange is relatively cheap and simple. And if
> you bother to take the tank out of your truck each month, you have a
> fun pickup truck the rest of the time.
If you're into pickup trucks I guess. So what happens when someone dumps
something into your water area without you knowing about it...say a car
accident near the beach, or a house fire, which will put all sorts of weird
things into the air, which eventually settle into the water. Skimping on
water changes is simply a lack of responsibility on the fishkeeper's part.
> And if you really are into fun ideas, you might consider just doing
> the water change with newly gotten sea water, rather than letting it
> age, to see what will settle and grow in your tank.
What do you think will grow in the tank if you add water that a 5 year old
just peed in?
> Finally, I will say that just looking at the bottom line $$ is not
> typical in the aquarium hobby. I note that sailfin mollies are
> cheaper than almost any creature you will find in your tank, or any
> marine tank of most readers of this newsgroup, yet they will live in
> salt water. There is a lot of head-scratching in this hobby, trying
> to figure out how to avoid water changes without harming the tank.
> Consider this a proposal for the opposite approach - how to make
> massive water changes as cheap, painless, and worry-free as possible.
> Perhaps a better tank would result?
There are some pretty wild ideas out there as far as water changes go, but
the bottom line is if you want to keep fish, you must maintain the tank.
Water changes are a part of this, and if you're not ready to do them, you
aren't ready to keep fish. Now sure, there are going to be the exceptions
(which always spring up in a discussion like this), such as "my friend's
cousin's mom's brother's friend who knows this guy who used to know a girl
who dated a guy who had a fish store said in the 10 years of keeping fish he
NEVER did a water change", but the percentages go with water changes being
necessary.
Earlier this year I started up my freshwater tank after being out of the
hobby for about 5 years. Since then I've added 2 55g marine tanks. I was
terrified the first time I did my water change because I was worried I'd
kill something, or something weird would be in the water. This was after I
had my tap water tested for metals, nitrates and such, and after testing the
water for nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, ph, etc. after mixing the salt in
before I put it in the tank. I can't even imagine what sort of stress I'd
put myself through using natural seawater with who knows what living in
it...not to mention the fact that when a fish is taken out of the ocean it
goes through 2-3 tanks with "unnatural" water, then having to go back to sea
water...that's too many changes for me to be comfortable with.
> : Was this really necessary?
> Will anything kinder than this cause him to go away?
Ignoring them usually does. People like that are looking for something to
feed on, some sort of attack, so they can come back with more. I know how
frustrating it is, but for every person that flames someone like him, his
"cause" so to speak has grown that much more... what's that they say about
annoying bugs? If you ignore it, it will go away...same holds here.
Adam
James Perkins
It is massive and overwhelmingly sad.
I am sticking to artificial salts. Mother nature is on the rag right now.
--
James
---
Ben Chase wrote in message ...
>Adam Granatella <ad...@fastbytes.com> wrote:
>:> But, why, duh, if you had access to natural seawater, would you run a
>:> tank as a "closed recirculating system"? Buy a pickup truck, and
>:> lotsa rubbermaid trashcans, or something more clever than that (I'm
>:> thinking of one of those big plastic tanks that municipalities use to
>:> water/clean/poison things living near pavement), and start doing big
>:> water changes for very little $$.
>
>: So let's see...with your method I'd need to buy a pickup truck, some big
>: plastic tank, some way to get the water from the ocean into the tank then
>: into the pickup truck...water is pretty heavy you know...
>
>: Or I can spend $50 per 200g (shipping included) for instant ocean, $3 a
>: piece for 5 or so 5-6g buckets, and use my tap water (which fortunately
for
>: me is free of most problematic chemicals), or worst case spend money on a
>: good RO/DI unit... I still come out spending several tens of thousands
of
>: dollars less...
>
>Several tens of thousands??? You're going to live near the ocean
>with, and put salt water into, one of those new, tarted-up trucks?
>No, spend $5k or $6k for a _used_ truck. Plus, it is unfair to charge
>that entire expense to your water changing budget, because most of the
>time, you have a fun p/u truck to use as you wish. (What can I say, I
>like p/u trucks.) And maybe you're doing 100g water changes per
>month. Once a month, you take your truck, with its 100g tank, to the
>beach, unroll the hose, turn on the pump. Spend a fun day at the
>beach. Drive home, run the hose to the tank in the garage, pump the
>water into that other tank. Wait two weeks, turn on other pumps to do
>your water change.
>
>In your way of doing things, I need the salt, I need the RO/DI water,
>I need to pay the water bill, I need to buy new membranes or
>replace/recharge the resin. I need to worry that my RO or DI system
>needs maintenance, and must do tests to find out if they do. And then
>I need to worry about my test results.
>
>Plus, because each additional gallon costs the same amount of money,
>there is a tendency (I argue) to skimp on water changes. In my way of
>doing things, you buy into the plan up front, and each additional
>gallon of water you exchange is relatively cheap and simple. And if
>you bother to take the tank out of your truck each month, you have a
>fun pickup truck the rest of the time.
>
>And if you really are into fun ideas, you might consider just doing
>the water change with newly gotten sea water, rather than letting it
>age, to see what will settle and grow in your tank.
>
>Finally, I will say that just looking at the bottom line $$ is not
>typical in the aquarium hobby. I note that sailfin mollies are
>cheaper than almost any creature you will find in your tank, or any
>marine tank of most readers of this newsgroup, yet they will live in
>salt water. There is a lot of head-scratching in this hobby, trying
>to figure out how to avoid water changes without harming the tank.
>Consider this a proposal for the opposite approach - how to make
>massive water changes as cheap, painless, and worry-free as possible.
>Perhaps a better tank would result?
>
>:> Use a spell checker, hire someone with more smarts than you, and take
>:> the result to an appropriate newsgroup. (I cannot guarantee that
>:> blurbs as stupid as yours would even be welcome in *.marketplace,
>:> though.)
>
>: Was this really necessary?
>
>Will anything kinder than this cause him to go away?
>
> - Ben Chase
Gonzalo Pajon
James Perkins wrote:
> Here in Panama City Fl we are experiencing a fish die off due to red tide.
> It is massive and overwhelmingly sad.
>
> I am sticking to artificial salts. Mother nature is on the rag right now.
I don't know that her being on the rag has anything to do with our red tides.
Perhaps it's something we've done that's causing the problem.
By the way I use natural sea water from Miami in all my tanks and service
customer tanks without any problem.
Gon
Jonh Stout
:) It is massive and overwhelmingly sad.
Is it really "red tide"???
It looked like there was a lot of green stuff in the water
That probably just dropped the oxygen to lethal levels
P.S. Is the PC water safe to swim in?
--
Jonh David Stout >>+_+<< jo...@polter.net
"Havermeyer was a lead bombardier who never missed. Yossarian was a lead
bombardier who had been demoted because he no longer gave a damn whether he
missed or not. He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt, and his
only mission each time he went up was to come down alive."
- Joseph Heller, Catch-22