Additives for RO water...
Jelly
My RO make-up water has an alkalinity of 3 dKH. As seawater is around 8dKH,
how much of Kents SuperBuffer would you people recommend to bring a 50 gal
storage bucket up to 8dkh? Thanks much...
Ross Bagley
Make up water should (in the simplest case) only make up for water
lost to evaporation. It shouldn't resemble your tank water. If you
have a decent calcium demand in your system, you can add lime to your
make-up water to make kalkwasser, and if you add some vinegar to the
kalkwasser, it will be easier for the tank to keep carbonate and
bicarbonate (your buffering salts) at the right proportions, but...
These additions are for manipulating the tank water, and the resulting
make-up water bears absolutely no resemblance to actual seawater. If
your make-up water resembles your tank water, you're doing it wrong.
Ultimately, if your tank has such a calcium or carbon demand that
you're having to add a product called "SuperBuffer" to keep the tank
stable, you'll be better off setting up a calcium reactor and making
that work well before trying to dose some chemical soup into your
tank. At least, in my opinion.
If, on the other hand, your tank water is fairly stable, and you don't
need to increase the dkh value in your tank, certainly don't be adding
something called "superbuffer" to the make-up water.
Again: Your make-up water is ideally just plain water, no salt, no
calcium, no carbon, just water. Many people do find it convenient to
dose calcium in their make-up water and this is a widely accepted
practice to replace calcium consumed within the system. Much more
than that, and product marketing is having too much of an effect on
your tank.
Regards,
Ross
-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
Jelly
it is already "rural" water the dkh is at 3. The problem is that I have an
open-hood with twin MH burning off approx 5-7 gallons a week (10% of my tank
volume). So I will address my original question:
My make-up water is of course plain RO water but simple math tells you that
adding one product of different values to another, over time will cause an
equilibrium of the two parts ............ie lower overall dkh
If Im replacing this much water the dkh of the tank is going to drop over
the weeks to align with the RO water. How do I bring the RO to similar
levels?
I think that the problem with these boards is if someone does not know a
specific answer they tend to go off on a long-winded answer that has very
little to do with the original question. Thanks anyway...
"Ross Bagley" <ro...@rossbagley.com> wrote in message
news:l5c660k...@panix1.panix.com...
JR
is happening when water evaporates. You need to buy
some good books and educate yourself. "Ross" gave you
a complete answer. You don't add anything to replace-
ment water.
There is no problem with the board only your ability
to understand the answer.
Jimmy Chen
that
> adding one product of different values to another, over time will cause an
> equilibrium of the two parts ............ie lower overall dkh
But here simple math isnt the issue. The real issue is complex chemistry.
You add buffer to your tank, so you raise dkh, but what about Ca, Mg, and
all the other stuff that your tank is using up and you arent replenishing?
What happens to your dkh then?
If you want to add chemicals, at least be looking at those balanced two part
ones.
jc
BigBru
"Jelly" <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:31MO8.75$bL3.3...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> I understand all of that but the make-up water I use goes thru RO/DI and
as
>
> specific answer they tend to go off on a long-winded answer that has very
> little to do with the original question. Thanks anyway...
I think the problem with these boards is that if someone doesn't understand
basic chemistry they tend to go off on long-winded insults of those that
do.
You are first class rube.
Bruce
JR
part ones.
I agree.
The simple issue of replacement water will not mater
in a sinlge day or a month, the overall dkh, but the
bio loads will IMO.<<<<<Disclaimer added here>
I evaporate 5 gallons a day when its hot and the three
fans are running. Overbuffering will have a detrimental
effect IME.
I would think it better to test the water and add whats
needed than to go by I evaporated x amount of water
so I need to add x amount of buffer and such.IMO
Jimmy Chen
> needed than to go by I evaporated x amount of water
> so I need to add x amount of buffer and such.IMO
But even that can lead to problems, as there arent enough test kits
available to test for all the chemicals that does exist in NSW. This is why
I personally perfer using a Ca reactor over adding chemicals.
jc
JR
What we need now is a addative that cost fifty cents
a dose that you use once a month and it returns the
water to NSW LOL
noway
RO/DI water. It seems to be enough to keep my alkalinity somewhat
stable. The 6 gallon container lasts about 1 week. I also drip about
1 gallon of Kalk each day (evening/early AM).
-noway
noway
GeorgeS069
George
"JR" <jrcl...@rap.midco.net> wrote in message
news:ugn9i1j...@corp.supernews.com...
Jelly
all the "knee jerk" reactions. This was exactly what I was looking for, you
are both an asset to the board and the hobby.....
"noway" <no...@noway.com> wrote in message
news:hsfngusbs98pd38u0...@4ax.com...
jupiter
tried/tested that)?
If you aren't seeing any trouble you probably don't need to add buffer. The
RO that I add has a weird chemistry but with regular top-off I don't see any
problems. My alkalinity is between 3.0 and 3.5 meq/L. I have a low pH (8.1)
and a high calcium (605-610 ppm) but I'm not having trouble. When I add
buffer I get a pH of 8.0 and an alkalinity of 4.0. Ca goes to just under 600
ppm. I think it is also killing my anemone.
Anyway, my point is the regular buffering capacity of the tank water can
compensate for your "odd" RO top-offs so you might mess up your chemistry by
adding buffer when you might not need it. Especially if you are doing
regular water changes (once a month or whatever). It's just something to
consider.
My first thought would be like your's and I would want to add something to
the top-off water to make it "match" the tank's water. But as Mr. Jimmy
mentioned, the chemistry is a little more complicated. The tank doesn't have
JUST borate, carbonate, and whatever other ions are in the superbuffer. So
in actuality, you aren't really adding the same water back in your top-offs.
Again, that's just something to consider. Good luck!
jupiter
--
http://members.rogers.com/jupiter.from.space
"Jelly" <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:wNQO8.117$Vt1.8...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Ross Bagley
> Thank you very much "noway" . So nice to have an intelligent answer after
> all the "knee jerk" reactions. This was exactly what I was looking for, you
> are both an asset to the board and the hobby.....
If you're serious and not a troll, you should go back and reread my
answer because it's the right one and you should throw out the
"superbuffer" product as yet another unnecessary expensive additive.
Your make up water should not have the same alkalinity as your tank
water. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.
Ross Bagley
> I understand all of that but the make-up water I use goes thru RO/DI
> and as it is already "rural" water the dkh is at 3. The problem is
> that I have an open-hood with twin MH burning off approx 5-7 gallons
> a week (10% of my tank volume). So I will address my original
> question:
My answer stands. Your make up water should be water. Simple water,
as pure as you can make it.
> My make-up water is of course plain RO water but simple math tells
> you that adding one product of different values to another, over
> time will cause an equilibrium of the two parts ............ie lower
> overall dkh
So what does simple math tell you will happen if you let water
evaporate from a chemical soup? Will the dkh go up? What should you
then add to tank water to return the dkh to a normal level?
> If Im replacing this much water the dkh of the tank is going to drop
> over the weeks to align with the RO water. How do I bring the RO to
> similar levels?
You're replacing water lost to evaporation. Only water is
evaporating, only water needs to be replaced.
> I think that the problem with these boards is if someone does not
> know a specific answer they tend to go off on a long-winded answer
> that has very little to do with the original question. Thanks
> anyway...
Read it again. I'm right and you still haven't understood that. You
may not injure your tank with this "superbuffer" product, but you're
certainly not doing it any good.
noway
around 8-10dKH.Within a few months is slowly decreased to 6..5ish.
About a 18 months ago I started to add a small amount of SuperBuffer
to my RO/DI makeup water... now my alkalinity is in the range of
8.6-12dKH. pH is much steadier nowadays at 8.2. Calicium tests in
the area of 400-500, which is higher than 2 years ago, probably due to
increase in Kalk dosage.
All tests are done with Salifert kits.
My tank is 94 gallon, 30 gallon sump and 30 gallon refugium, 125LBS
live rock and 1 inch agronite base in tank, 1-2 inches in sump. I
dose 25-30 ml B-Ionic daily and do either 8 or 12 gallon water change
every week (except this week!). I use Reef Crystals salt. (Maybe it
does not have enough buffer?)
As far as superbuffer being expensive... 1000g for $10. I'm not sure
how long it will last but I'm guessing several years. Clearly one of
the least expensive additives I have - for that matter, the least
expensive thing for the entire tank.
Like some people say, yrmv.
-noway
On 16 Jun 2002 02:09:30 -0400, ro...@rossbagley.com (Ross Bagley)
wrote:
Michael
> When the tank was originally setup (2.5 years ago), the alklinity was
> around 8-10dKH.Within a few months is slowly decreased to 6..5ish.
>
> About a 18 months ago I started to add a small amount of SuperBuffer
> to my RO/DI makeup water... now my alkalinity is in the range of
> 8.6-12dKH. pH is much steadier nowadays at 8.2. Calicium tests in
> the area of 400-500, which is higher than 2 years ago, probably due to
> increase in Kalk dosage.
>
> All tests are done with Salifert kits.
>
> My tank is 94 gallon, 30 gallon sump and 30 gallon refugium, 125LBS
> live rock and 1 inch agronite base in tank, 1-2 inches in sump. I
> dose 25-30 ml B-Ionic daily and do either 8 or 12 gallon water change
> every week (except this week!). I use Reef Crystals salt. (Maybe it
> does not have enough buffer?)
>
> As far as superbuffer being expensive... 1000g for $10. I'm not sure
> how long it will last but I'm guessing several years. Clearly one of
> the least expensive additives I have - for that matter, the least
> expensive thing for the entire tank.
>
> Like some people say, yrmv.
>
> -noway
>
>
Here's some info on salt mixes that I found useful:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp
Table II has info on buffer system components before and after equilibration
with atmospheric CO2
I use IO salt and no buffer or Ca additives, but my Ca usage is almost nil
(no LPS or SPS corals at this time and very few softies) Though my Alk does
drop over time, ~4 gallon water change (in 30 long tank) seems to bring me
back in line with NSW...
JME, YMMV and ; )
HTH,
--
Michael
Huntsville, Al
remove "yourpants" to reply ;)
John&Jana
like you just want to pick and choose the one that suits you. If you
will read noway's later post, he's also adding a two part supplement
DAILY. He kinda forgot to mention that part. But you are going to do
whatever you want anyway, so I'm not even clear why you bothered to ask.
Ross gave you the correct answer. There is no problem with this "board".
The problem is with people who won't listen.
John
http://www.freewebz.com/jjdhome/Index.htm
Andrea Reed
wrote:
>"Jelly" <Je...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Thank you very much "noway" . So nice to have an intelligent answer after
>> all the "knee jerk" reactions. This was exactly what I was looking for, you
>> are both an asset to the board and the hobby.....
>
>If you're serious and not a troll, you should go back and reread my
>answer because it's the right one and you should throw out the
>"superbuffer" product as yet another unnecessary expensive additive.
>
>Your make up water should not have the same alkalinity as your tank
>water. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.
>
>Regards,
>Ross
Ross, here's a somewhat related question. I am considering getting a
RO/DI water for gradually replacing the water in my tank (NOT
top-offs. I understand what you have said about top-off water).
My question is, if I want to create salt water for the tank with an
RO/DI, what do I need to do to it to bring it up to spec to add to the
tank? Will just mixing it with my salt mix (Instant Ocean) work? I
know the water is extremely acid when it comes from the RO/DI unit. I
am just curious as to how people handle this issue, if they do. I do
not have access to RO water to experiment with, so my investment in a
unit will be my first exposure to the stuff.
Thanks for your comments,
-Andrea
L. G.
wrote:
>My question is, if I want to create salt water for the tank with an
>RO/DI, what do I need to do to it to bring it up to spec to add to the
>tank? Will just mixing it with my salt mix (Instant Ocean) work? I
>know the water is extremely acid when it comes from the RO/DI unit. I
>am just curious as to how people handle this issue, if they do. I do
>not have access to RO water to experiment with, so my investment in a
>unit will be my first exposure to the stuff.
>
>Thanks for your comments,
>
>-Andrea
AFAIK, RO/DI water has a neutral pH (7.0), not acidic, not alkaline.
--
Larry Gamache
Ross Bagley
> Ross, here's a somewhat related question. I am considering getting a
> RO/DI water for gradually replacing the water in my tank (NOT
> top-offs. I understand what you have said about top-off water).
>
> My question is, if I want to create salt water for the tank with an
> RO/DI, what do I need to do to it to bring it up to spec to add to the
> tank? Will just mixing it with my salt mix (Instant Ocean) work?
Yep. Do this a day or so before you plan to add the water to the
tank, which will allow the salt mix to fully complete any hydration
reactions and also give the natural bacteria a chance to start
amplifying in the artificial saltwater (which prevents your water
change water from diluting the bacteria in the tank water too much).
> I know the water is extremely acid when it comes from the RO/DI
> unit.
This is probably an artifact of your testing kit. Any DI system worth
it's salt (pun intended :) will generate water really close to 7.0pH.
Color match pH kits do a notoriously bad job of measuring an
unbuffered 7.0. The test mixture overwhelms the tiny number of H- and
OH+ ions in the water and leaves you with a bogus measurement.
If you really want to know how good a job your RO/DI system is doing,
you'll need to get a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter which run from
$40 to $200. Some run inline with the effluent port on your RO/DI
system and others are a probe type and you can dip them into the
effluent or into a small clean sample bucket. If you want to verify
the pH of your nearly pure water, use a titrating test kit (where you
mix one reagent with the test sample and then add drops of a second
reagent until a specific color change occurs) for a high quality
measurement.
> I am just curious as to how people handle this issue, if they do. I
> do not have access to RO water to experiment with, so my investment
> in a unit will be my first exposure to the stuff.
DI media with color change media is good for knowing when you need to
change media, but the color change will occur long before actual
exhaustion of the media. Also, DI media is ridiculously expensive, so
if you can get with a group of reefkeepers in your area, it may make
sense to buy bulk media and refillable cannisters. I wrote a post on
where to get supplies for this a while ago...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=l5cznzb746k.fsf%40panix2.panix.com
The second half is where I discussed the economics of refilling
cartridges. I love google groups.
Ross Bagley
> When the tank was originally setup (2.5 years ago), the alklinity was
> around 8-10dKH.Within a few months is slowly decreased to 6..5ish.
I would first suspect that you aren't replacing the protein skimmer
effluent with saltwater. Remember, that's not evaporate that should
be replaced with pure water, but is actual saltwater from the tank
that should be replaced with more artificial saltwater.
Also, if you add limewater instead of pure water, then you need to
make certain there is enough carbon getting into the water. Limewater
only adds calcium and your corals need calcium carbonate. If
diffusion of CO2 into your tank water is insufficient to maintain your
alkalinity (probably true for most SPS keepers), white vinegar will
work quite nicely and is astonishingly cheap for the value.
Craig Bingman's article on the subject (including dosing
recommendations) is here:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp
> About a 18 months ago I started to add a small amount of SuperBuffer
> to my RO/DI makeup water... now my alkalinity is in the range of
> 8.6-12dKH. pH is much steadier nowadays at 8.2. Calicium tests in
> the area of 400-500, which is higher than 2 years ago, probably due to
> increase in Kalk dosage.
I don't dispute that a product that adds carbonate to your system has
probably helped stabilize your alkalinity, but there are many ways to
accomplish that feat, and the objective should never be to have your
make up water resemble your tank water on an alk measurement test (the
original question).
As I said, there are many ways to get carbonate into the system, and
a little white vinegar in your kalkwasser is just about the most
economical way I've heard of yet. $1/gallon in my supermarket, which
should last several aquarists for many years.
Andrea Reed
wrote:
<massive snip of RO/DI question>
>
>DI media with color change media is good for knowing when you need to
>change media, but the color change will occur long before actual
>exhaustion of the media. Also, DI media is ridiculously expensive, so
>if you can get with a group of reefkeepers in your area, it may make
>sense to buy bulk media and refillable cannisters. I wrote a post on
>where to get supplies for this a while ago...
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=l5cznzb746k.fsf%40panix2.panix.com
>
>The second half is where I discussed the economics of refilling
>cartridges. I love google groups.
>
>Regards,
>Ross
>
>-- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba
>"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature...
>Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller
Ross, thanks for the very informative link and the info! Looks like
getting RO/DI is more expensive than I had initially thought, but
what's a few hundred more dollars in the reef hobby ;)
-Andrea