KH and GH to PH
Bugbear
that I use for my fish. Here are the specs. directly out of the tap
Ph: 7.6
Kh: 3.75
Gh: around 18 degrees
Would running my tap water through peat lower the hardness to an
acceptable level for most plants or should I look into a RO unit?
thanks
Arrhae
newsreader...
> Would running my tap water through peat lower the hardness to an
> acceptable level for most plants or should I look into a RO unit?
I'm assuming you're not currently running CO2? If so, that'll take care
of your pH and hardness for you. My tap water has a gh of over 60, I
couldn't test any higher as the test tube would overflow in that case.
--
"All I know is that he likes pop tarts. POP TARTS. Find me a restaurant
that serves Pop tarts and we'll talk."
-Sara, 10/18/01
Chuck Gadd
wrote:
>I'm assuming you're not currently running CO2? If so, that'll take care
>of your pH and hardness for you.
CO2 will not do anything to the hardness. CO2 will lower the pH.
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Iain Miller
"Bugbear" <mont...@isu.edu> wrote in message
news:962dab75.02090...@posting.google.com...
I am doing some stuff with peat filtering at the moment (see alt.aquaria for
threads on the subject)
The short answer is that I have found that filtering through peat will lower
both the GH and KH - that latter will go faster and further. However, you
need to be careful from where you are starting because if you go too far
(i.e. KH goes to zero) then you get a PH crash and your water will turn
highly acidic (i..e PH 4 or 5) in a matter of hours.
What's confusing me at the moment is that although I can reduce the PH of my
water from 8.6 to less than 7, if I then circulate that water (or put an
airstone in it for example) the pH goes shooting back up to 8+. Only
explanation I can think of is that the CO2 is being driven out.....
The KH & GH seem to stay stable at whatever level I bring it down to.
One last thing, you must use pure moss peat & not any sort of peat
substitute/garden compost etc etc
I.
Paulio629
have thought that the peat breaking down in fact adds co2 and this gives an
unreliable pH reading. So you are probably right that it off gasses the co2
made by the peat decomposing.
tcb...@earthlink.net
> Kh: 3.75
> Gh: around 18 degrees
>
> Would running my tap water through peat lower the hardness to an
> acceptable level for most plants or should I look into a RO unit?
Most folks have found for keeping nice plants, peat filtering is
A) unecessary
B) Messy
C) inconsistent results
D) Yellow water
That being said, I do add a little amount of the very bottom layer of
my substrate when I set a tank up.
But you have great tap water for plants. All you'd need to do is add
CO2 which is
A) cheaper than ROwater production
B) Less maintenace than either or RO/Peat
C) what the plants really want, not "soft water"
D) Will help algae and many other issues in dealing with plants in the
aquarium
To add CO2, I'd recommend a gas tank system, once set up you might
fiddle with a knob once a month at most for a few seconds, refill the
gas tank locally for about 7-15$ once every 6 months to several years
depending on the size and usage of the tank. I touched my CO2 system 3
times last year for a grand total of 45seconds.
Does peat water help plants grow better ? Not much. Does CO2?
Certainly. Does RO? No.
Plants still want CO2 to grow fast. You cannot get around that issue
with removing hardness.
Many LFS's will suggest RO and soft water for plants. This is a myth
that they have been told. I'd wish they stop since it causes lots of
problems for folks trying to have a nice plant tank.
You can do a nice non CO2 tank also but that's approached from a
different angle and takes more patience, virtually no water changes
etc. Plant growth is slow, choice of plants is lower, you cannot go in
and rearrange things etc. There are other limitations but also some
gains.
Most folks go with the CO2 though, admittedly, it is addictive to
watch a plant grow and pearl. Amano and most other tanks on the web
/books use CO2.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Scott Nichting
"tcb...@NOSPAMearthlink.net" <tcb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:310c6fc9.0209...@posting.google.com...
> > Ph: 7.6
> > Kh: 3.75
> > Gh: around 18 degrees
> >
> > Would running my tap water through peat lower the hardness to an
> > acceptable level for most plants or should I look into a RO unit?
>
> Most folks have found for keeping nice plants, peat filtering is
> A) unecessary
> B) Messy
> C) inconsistent results
> D) Yellow water
>
> That being said, I do add a little amount of the very bottom layer of
> my substrate when I set a tank up.
>
> But you have great tap water for plants. All you'd need to do is add
> CO2 which is
> A) cheaper than ROwater production
> B) Less maintenace than either or RO/Peat
> C) what the plants really want, not "soft water"
> D) Will help algae and many other issues in dealing with plants in the
> aquarium
> (snip)
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
FWIW, my tap has identical GH (KH is a little lower, but I raise that to
about 5 anyway), and it has not caused me any problems. I was concerned at
first as well, but after a couple years I've quit worrying. RO is expensive
and a pain. I wouldn't recommend it in your case. I think your water is
fine. CO2 was very beneficial though, and helps me get my PH where I want
it.
--
Scott Nichting
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>Most folks have found for keeping nice plants, peat filtering is
>A) unecessary
>B) Messy
>C) inconsistent results
>D) Yellow water
Then those folks don't have:
A) Water with a pH of 9.0 and a KH/GH off the scale.
B) The ability to pour water into one bucket and out of another without
making a horrible mess (?)
C) Sensible expectations of what peat filtering can achieve (it's not
going to reduce my water to a steady pH of 6.0, crystal clear water).
D) The desire for water to be the colour certain species of fish live in
naturally.
As a relative newbie, I've found pre-filtering my liquid rock water
through peat is easy, very cheap, relatively safe and extremely
effective (no more limestone staining of the glass of my tank and all
the tank furniture, much healthier plant growth and fantastic fish
colour).
>That being said, I do add a little amount of the very bottom layer of
>my substrate when I set a tank up.
I wish I'd done that, but it's too late now.
>But you have great tap water for plants. All you'd need to do is add
>CO2 which is
>A) cheaper than ROwater production
>B) Less maintenace than either or RO/Peat
>C) what the plants really want, not "soft water"
My water would buffer CO2 - it buffers everything! It's the original
Immovable Object.
>D) Will help algae and many other issues in dealing with plants in the
>aquarium
I haven't had any problems with plant growth, except an elderly Java
fern that died off and left a patch of hair algae. I'd like to consider
CO2 at a later date - for the moment, everything's growing great.
>Does peat water help plants grow better ? Not much.
It depends on the circumstances. In my case, it helped - a lot.
>Many LFS's will suggest RO and soft water for plants. This is a myth
>that they have been told. I'd wish they stop since it causes lots of
>problems for folks trying to have a nice plant tank.
If you have hard water, the lime cakes on the roots of your plants and
can block pours on the leaves. So in that sense, soft water is better
for plants.
>Most folks go with the CO2 though, admittedly, it is addictive to
>watch a plant grow and pearl. Amano and most other tanks on the web
>/books use CO2.
I'd like to give it a go sometime, but at the moment it's just another
expense and I have a problem with my plants growing too fast as it is.
OTOH, I have a pretty heavily stocked tank and fish do expire CO2, of
course.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
--------------------------------------------
"I want a licence for my pet halibut Eric"
from Monty Python (the fish license sketch).
--------------------------------------------
tcb...@earthlink.net
> >Most folks have found for keeping nice plants, peat filtering is
> >A) unecessary
> >B) Messy
> >C) inconsistent results
> >D) Yellow water
>
> Then those folks don't have:
> A) Water with a pH of 9.0 and a KH/GH off the scale.
Oh, you think you have hard water?
Try a CaCO3 hardness of over 700ppm and averages of delivered tap of
450ppm. I did just fine. See my horrid results here:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=plantbrain
Look at the plants in nature also. That is truely wickedly hard water.
> B) The ability to pour water into one bucket and out of another without
> making a horrible mess (?)
I use a python. Buckets laying around with peat tends to make the
spouse a tad upset:-)
> C) Sensible expectations of what peat filtering can achieve (it's not
> going to reduce my water to a steady pH of 6.0, crystal clear water).
Very true here.
> D) The desire for water to be the colour certain species of fish live in
> naturally.
You like tea coloured water? I don't. My so called soft water fish do
fine, even breeding. Breeding= happy fish.
Some Killi fish/Apisto's this is good for. A few others, namely wild
fish this might help. I don't care for tea colored water personally,
I've never found a need for it.
I've used peat for years also.
> As a relative newbie, I've found pre-filtering my liquid rock water
> through peat is easy, very cheap, relatively safe and extremely
> effective (no more limestone staining of the glass of my tank and all
> the tank furniture, much healthier plant growth and fantastic fish
> colour).
Great.
>
> >That being said, I do add a little amount of the very bottom layer of
> >my substrate when I set a tank up.
>
> I wish I'd done that, but it's too late now.
Yea, it's tough when it's all set up but you don't need it after a
year or so of the tank being set up.
> My water would buffer CO2 - it buffers everything! It's the original
> Immovable Object.
Great, you don't have to add any baking soda.
> >D) Will help algae and many other issues in dealing with plants in the
> >aquarium
> I haven't had any problems with plant growth, except an elderly Java
> fern that died off and left a patch of hair algae. I'd like to consider
> CO2 at a later date - for the moment, everything's growing great.
For a non CO2 approach, peat is a good option for some folks. But CO2
is much easier. I still mess with things far less than you do with the
buckets and peat. And I'd say I have far more plant choices and are
healthier and no tea color in my water.
> >Does peat water help plants grow better ? Not much.
> It depends on the circumstances. In my case, it helped - a lot.
Non CO2 is does some what. I tried it way back when without CO2.
It did so so. Comparing it to CO2 is night and day though.
> >Many LFS's will suggest RO and soft water for plants. This is a myth
> >that they have been told. I'd wish they stop since it causes lots of
> >problems for folks trying to have a nice plant tank.
> If you have hard water, the lime cakes on the roots of your plants and
> can block pours on the leaves. So in that sense, soft water is better
> for plants.
Lime is deposited why? Because a lack of CO2! The plant has no choice
but to go after the HCO2 leaving the ion split into CO2 and OH. The
plant take the CO2 and kicks out the OH which sends the pH high enough
on the surface of the leaf to deposit and precipitate out CaCO3 of
solution at pH's of around 10.1 or so at STP.
They do the same thing to soften tap water called lime softening. They
raise the tap water pH up to 10.1 and the CaCO3 falls out of solution.
If you add CO2 to hard water this whole process never happens.
Removing CO2 raises the pH, adding OH's raises the pH, NO3 usages also
adds OH's for each NO3 used by a plant.
Adding CO2 takes care of these 3 things.
RO does not.
If you proscribe to the non CO2 method, using a plant like Egeria or
hornwort, Vals etc can soften your water if you do not do water
changes often. This issue is addressed well in Diana Walstad's book on
non CO2 tanks. If you like non CO2 plant tanks, it is a very very good
book to look over and adhere to. You will get great results following
that and not using soft water or peat. IME, that was much better than
the peat softening things I did in the past.
> >Most folks go with the CO2 though, admittedly, it is addictive to
> >watch a plant grow and pearl. Amano and most other tanks on the web
> >/books use CO2.
>
> I'd like to give it a go sometime, but at the moment it's just another
> expense and I have a problem with my plants growing too fast as it is.
There's no rush:-) Hehe, it'll be here when ever you want to try it
out. If you are ahppy with the peat method, I'd suggest getting that
book. It will be a good reference and help you reduce your labor even
more and help address any future issues. It is shocking to folks that
use CO2 to see a nicely done non CO2 tank. It can be done but the
tenents are quite different.
A good book about peat: "The Waters of Humic Acids".
It goes into a good detail of what happens and what is known about
humic acid interactions. Less is known than most folks think.
> OTOH, I have a pretty heavily stocked tank and fish do expire CO2, of
> course.
Not much/enough to do much in any system natural or otherwise to help
plant growth if the plants are dense and submergent. Bacterial
respiration in the substrate, surfaces, filter and equilibratization
with the air during the night contribute the loin's share.
Glad you are a non CO2 person. Try not doing the water changes and
topping off the tank instead if your fish loads are low/moderate etc.
Get that book also. You'll do great doing that.
You can have the plants do the work, use RO or you can do those peat
water changes or you can use CO2.
But I'd pick let the plants do the work or CO2. I've done the other
methods.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>> Then those folks don't have:
>> A) Water with a pH of 9.0 and a KH/GH off the scale.
>
>Oh, you think you have hard water?
>Try a CaCO3 hardness of over 700ppm and averages of delivered tap of
>450ppm.
Is this some sort of competition? "Who has the hardest water in the
world"? ;oP
>Look at the plants in nature also. That is truely wickedly hard water.
Most of my plants are from the Amazon rain forest which is not at all
hard water. It makes sense to me to grow the plants in the water they
evolved in!
>> B) The ability to pour water into one bucket and out of another without
>> making a horrible mess (?)
>
>I use a python. Buckets laying around with peat tends to make the
>spouse a tad upset:-)
They are only lying around for the 15 minutes or so I'm doing a water-
change. My peat filter is out in the garden and the garden is such a
mess, it hardly makes any difference (what with feral guinea pigs,
children's toys and a pretty appallingly low standard of gardening).
>> D) The desire for water to be the colour certain species of fish live in
>> naturally.
>
>You like tea coloured water?
Actually, I do. It reminds me of the streams I used to play in when I
was a kid in Germany. The rocks had iron ore so the water was reddish
brown, but very clear at the same time. We used to catch newts and play
with them (we didn't hurt them - we used to feed them on fisherman's
maggots).
I also find my cardinal tetras particularly show up fantastically
against the water and the other fish's colour appears brighter. You
should see the colour of my male gourami - he's incredible!
>> >D) Will help algae and many other issues in dealing with plants in the
>> >aquarium
>> I haven't had any problems with plant growth, except an elderly Java
>> fern that died off and left a patch of hair algae. I'd like to consider
>> CO2 at a later date - for the moment, everything's growing great.
>
>For a non CO2 approach, peat is a good option for some folks. But CO2
>is much easier. I still mess with things far less than you do with the
>buckets and peat. And I'd say I have far more plant choices and are
>healthier and no tea color in my water.
I can definitely see the advantages, but I haven't yet researched how to
go about it. I saw someone's set-up the other day. He had a large
canister and various valves and stuff attached to it. I have absolutely
*no idea* where I could buy such stuff, how to connect it all up or how
much it would all cost. It looked expensive to me and enquiries in my
LFS kind of confirmed this suspicion.
Then I have several friends who killed fish when they first installed
CO2 (I'm paranoid about losing fish - I get so upset!).
>> If you have hard water, the lime cakes on the roots of your plants and
>> can block pours on the leaves. So in that sense, soft water is better
>> for plants.
>
>Lime is deposited why? Because a lack of CO2! The plant has no choice
>but to go after the HCO2 leaving the ion split into CO2 and OH. The
>plant take the CO2 and kicks out the OH which sends the pH high enough
>on the surface of the leaf to deposit and precipitate out CaCO3 of
>solution at pH's of around 10.1 or so at STP.
>They do the same thing to soften tap water called lime softening. They
>raise the tap water pH up to 10.1 and the CaCO3 falls out of solution.
Interesting. Makes sense, however. I hear a theory that what pH
filtering actually does is dose water with CO2 (another thread on this
group, I believe). If that's the case, then maybe pre-filtering with
peat, in a non-CO2 tank helps more than you realise! It would only work
if the water was actually filtered through peat, however - peat in the
tank and filter wouldn't do that.
>> I'd like to give it a go sometime, but at the moment it's just another
>> expense and I have a problem with my plants growing too fast as it is.
>
>There's no rush:-) Hehe, it'll be here when ever you want to try it
>out.
To be honest, the whole thing looks scarily technical. I can understand
peat filtering and the chemistry bit doesn't worry me (I studied
biochemistry at university), but mucking about with valves and gaskets
is very intimidating.
> If you are ahppy with the peat method, I'd suggest getting that
>book. It will be a good reference and help you reduce your labor even
>more and help address any future issues. It is shocking to folks that
>use CO2 to see a nicely done non CO2 tank. It can be done but the
>tenents are quite different.
I have an extremely healthy non-CO2 tank and I'm pleased with what I
believe is its naturalistic look. My giant vallis grows too quickly,
however, and I'm thinking of replacing it with something a little
shorter. Any ideas? My tank is 2' deep and needs something to look
rather like the base of reed-beds (another species of vallis, perhaps?).
>Glad you are a non CO2 person. Try not doing the water changes and
>topping off the tank instead if your fish loads are low/moderate etc.
>Get that book also. You'll do great doing that.
>You can have the plants do the work, use RO or you can do those peat
>water changes or you can use CO2.
>But I'd pick let the plants do the work or CO2. I've done the other
>methods.
Thanks.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
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