missing/inhibited nutrient game. Water wisteria won't grow.
Kank
Hello, all. I'll start by listing relevant setup and fertilization
details and follow that with a description of my problem(s). I have
looked through some of the deficiency charts and descriptions that are
posted online, but so many of the symptoms seem the same to me
(without seeing them for myself) that I have been unable nail down the
culprit(s). I would guess Magnesium from some symptoms, but my water
is quite hard (see below) and my local water report claims that about
60% of the hardness is due to calcium, leaving the rest to be
magnesium hardness, right? Iron could be the suspect in my compacta
amazon (dwarf), but my laterite substrate base should give up some
iron, right? I have no iron test kit. I tire of buying test kits
when plants will tell you these things, but I am not experienced
enough to know the difference between one deficiency or another and my
Nitrogen deficiency was so severe that I couldn't see any symptoms. I
simply had no growth (except for crypts, they must tolerate low N
quite well). I was previously of the understanding that most plants
would continue to put out new growth when deficient in a few
nutrients, especially micro/trace elements. My experience thus far is
that many plants will simply not grow at all without certain
nutrients. Water wisteria must be one such plant.
[Fertilization]: I began adding KNO3 approx 1 month ago. 5ppm is my
target. I can tell NO3 is low because my Tropica Hygro will lie over
horizontally if NO3 drops below 2ppm or so. At 5ppm or so, Tropica
Hygro grows nicely and stands towards the light. At the same time, I
also began adding 1mL Seachem Flourish once per week (I now intend to
add more frequently). I also add 3mL of Seachem Flourish Potassium
(about 1ppm of K in my tank) a couple times per week, just to ensure
Potassium is readily available. When I run out of Flourish Potassium,
I'll be using KCl that I already have on hand. At the same time that
I began adding KNO3, I inserted a couple of Jobes spikes around the
compacta amazon, but observed no response and have added none since.
[Tank parameters]: GH=15, KH=6.5, pH=7.1, CO2= ~15ppm, temp= 75F,
NO3=5ppm, PO4=0 (today PO4 was 0, but its sometimes as high as 0.5ppm,
though usually less than 0.05ppm). Typically change 10% water weekly,
sometimes 20%, but I skip a week or two now and again.
[Tap parameters]: PO4 = 0, NO3 = 0, GH = 16, KH = 6.5, pH = 7.8
[Tank Hardware]: 38-gallon (36"w x 20"h x 12"d). 1-inch laterite
enriched base with 3-4" inches of plain 2-3mm gravel on top of that.
I would call the light level in the tank to be medium-high and Chuck
Gadd and others have agreed that it should be sufficient for my
plants, though not in the high-very high range. Lighting is a
1x96watt bright kit from AH Supply (PC fluorescent), which is
retrofitted into the original strip light of the standard All-Glass
aquarium hood. Light duration is currently 10 hours per day.
Filtration is a Marineland Emperor 280 with the biowheel disabled
(spray bar plugged up). It is mostly for mechanical filtration as I
have glued some foam to an old emperor cartridge and it requires
cleaning every other day or two (grrrr). CO2 is injected with a yeast
generator fed into the impeller of my filter. CO2 could be higher,
but it gets difficult to prevent levels possibly toxic to the fish if
I make the generator more powerful. I have a low fish load and feed
minimally to reduce PO4.
[Plant Problems] My water wisteria won't grow at all. It has never
grown much in my tank, the only exception being a bunch of healthy new
shoots it sprouted during a 6-day "dark period" that I performed to
slow down an algae bloom (lack of light not binding iron during this
time???). That was 2-3 months ago and since returning the tank to a
normal lighting schedule, the wisteria has done nothing but serve as a
place for hair/thread algae to grow. The leaf tips at the top of the
plant are pale, yellowish, and small. The stems are slowly rotting
away at the substrate, as well (plants keep getting shorter as I
replant them). I completely lost about 3 stems of Giant Hygro from
similar symptoms and now have only water wisteria, valisneria
"contortionist", and tropica hygro in the mid-to-high growth rate
category.
My Compacta Amazon now grows only narrow, pale leaves that show darker
green only around the leaf nerves. Much of each leaf is somewhat
translucent Some leaves twist and crinkle a bit, but not drastically.
These symptoms are only recent developments. The compacta amazon grew
quite nicely for months while the wisteria has not changed. Amazon
showed no response to jobes spikes inserted a month ago, but it does
look to be iron-deficient and it pumps a lot of O2 into the substrate
trying to get nutrients (bubbles up often). I will add more jobes
spikes around plant, not putting them so deep. Doesn't a laterite
base help such plants? I was hoping it would supply iron to root
feeders like the amazon. My crypts grow great and I assume they
prefer substrate nutrients as well.
Crypt Willisi grows very nicely (only thing in the tank that grew
right from the start). However, some of the older, shorter leaves
sometimes show brown holes. The whole leaf tends to be covered by
hair/thread algae eventually (as with all my plants). The older small
leaves eventually turn yellowish and die. I am adding quite a bit of
potassium, so that seems an unlikely suspect. I have to really hunt
to find those holes that I mentioned as my crypts are leagues
healthier than anything else in the tank. They require more pruning
than anything else in the tank ( except the hair algae).
Water wisteria has not responded to increased NO3 levels at all, while
Tropica Hygro showed immediate and impressive response. Tropica Hygro
was lying on the substrate dying much like the Giant Hygro and Water
wisteria, but is now grows nicely, with healthy, large leaves and no
signs of other nutrient deficiency. I can tell when NO3 gets low by
watching tropica hygro for this "drooping".
I hope that everyone had a great holiday season and thank you for
taking the time to read my post. If you'd like more information, just
ask and I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can.
-Kank
Please delete "REMOVECAPS" from reply address to contact me.
Chuck Gadd
>
>Hello, all. I'll start by listing relevant setup and fertilization
>details and follow that with a description of my problem(s). I have
>looked through some of the deficiency charts and descriptions that are
I just updated by chart yesterday. Might not help you in this exact
case, but you might want to take a look for future reference.
>60% of the hardness is due to calcium, leaving the rest to be
>magnesium hardness, right?
yes, so probably not magnesium.
>Iron could be the suspect in my compacta
>amazon (dwarf), but my laterite substrate base should give up some
>iron, right?
Some. You might try making a small ball of laterite (if you have any
left over), and placing it right at the roots of the sword. What
are you using for your substrate? Some will pack too tightly, and
will hurt the roots ability to get to the nutrients.
>would continue to put out new growth when deficient in a few
>nutrients, especially micro/trace elements.
I would agree with that statement.
>nutrients. Water wisteria must be one such plant.
Not in my experience.
>[Fertilization]: I began adding KNO3 approx 1 month ago. 5ppm is my
>target. I can tell NO3 is low because my Tropica Hygro will lie over
>horizontally if NO3 drops below 2ppm or so. At 5ppm or so, Tropica
Are you sure the nitrate is responsible there? I've never seen that
type of effect.
>[Tank parameters]: GH=15, KH=6.5, pH=7.1, CO2= ~15ppm, temp= 75F,
>[Tap parameters]: PO4 = 0, NO3 = 0, GH = 16, KH = 6.5, pH = 7.8
Any water softener or other water alterations being done?
Sounds like good CO2.
>[Tank Hardware]: 38-gallon (36"w x 20"h x 12"d). 1-inch laterite
>enriched base with 3-4" inches of plain 2-3mm gravel on top of that.
>plants, though not in the high-very high range. Lighting is a
>1x96watt bright kit from AH Supply (PC fluorescent), which is
Light shouldn't be the limiting factor here...
>(spray bar plugged up). It is mostly for mechanical filtration as I
>have glued some foam to an old emperor cartridge and it requires
>cleaning every other day or two (grrrr).
Well, it's a pain, but it does mean you get lots of debris removed
from the tank before it breaks down and pollutes the tank. This
might actually be an issue in your problem...
>generator fed into the impeller of my filter. CO2 could be higher,
>but it gets difficult to prevent levels possibly toxic to the fish if
No need. 15ppm is just fine. Even factoring in pH measurement
errors, you should be in the desired range.
>[Plant Problems] My water wisteria won't grow at all. It has never
>grown much in my tank, the only exception being a bunch of healthy new
>shoots it sprouted during a 6-day "dark period" that I performed to
More likely other plants growth stopped/slowed, and left nutrients
which the wisteria desperately needed.
>place for hair/thread algae to grow. The leaf tips at the top of the
>plant are pale, yellowish, and small.
New growth, pale yellowish : iron. But just the tips are pale? Or
the entire new leaf?
>The stems are slowly rotting
>away at the substrate, as well (plants keep getting shorter as I
wisteria definitely has a tendency to do this (rotting stems). In my
experience, it's a reproduction mechanism, since it will then float up
a leaf or stem, which will produce baby plants.
>My Compacta Amazon now grows only narrow, pale leaves that show darker
>green only around the leaf nerves. Much of each leaf is somewhat
>translucent
What happens to the older leaves? Sounds more and more like iron...
> Some leaves twist and crinkle a bit, but not drastically.
Calcium is the main one indicated by twisted/crinkled leaves, but with
15d GH, not likely a problem. Boron can sometimes show up like
calcium...
>trying to get nutrients (bubbles up often). I will add more jobes
>spikes around plant, not putting them so deep.
Jobes contain no iron. Maybe get ahold of some commercial "root
tabs" that do contain iron. Flourish tabs are a good choice.
> Doesn't a laterite
>base help such plants? I was hoping it would supply iron to root
Supposed to...
>feeders like the amazon. My crypts grow great and I assume they
>prefer substrate nutrients as well.
Crypts are not nutrient-demanding. Their slow growth allows them to
make due with whatever little nutrient they can get.
>healthier than anything else in the tank. They require more pruning
>than anything else in the tank ( except the hair algae).
Clarify: hair algae, or beard algae? Long green flowing stuff, or
short dark green/red/black stubble? Hair algae is long green flowing
stuff. It is common in high iron situations...
Overall, I'm suspecting iron deficiency. Laterite should provide it,
but maybe you've got poor circulation in the substrate. Is your tank
in a cool room? Is the bottom of the tank exposed to air? I'm
thinking maybe if the substrate is cooler than the water temp, it will
have very poor circulation, and the roots will not grow well, and
won't pick up nutrients well. This is occasionally referred to as
the plants having "cold feet".
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
drteele
I read your post and Chuck's response and would like to offer my 2-bits
worth of advice.
1. Chuck is probably right in that in your high light and CO2 environment,
you probably have some sort of nutrient limiting deficiency that is not
phosphate. You might consider trying PMDD (unless you are in the UK, then
TMG). That should alleviate any micro/macro nutrient deficiencies.
2. I think this is a key phrase in your post:
Kank wrote:
"The compacta amazon grew quite nicely for months while the wisteria has
not changed. Amazon showed no response to jobes spikes inserted a month
ago, but it does look to be iron-deficient and it pumps a lot of O2 into
the substrate
trying to get nutrients (bubbles up often)."
If you see bubbles coming up out of your substrate, that is a sign of an
anaerobic condition. To my knowledge, bubbling from the rootzone is not a
common occurrence for amazons. Answer me a couple of questions.
How long has your tank been established? More than 6 months?
Are all the plants that are doing poorly located in the same general
region of the tank, like the back where the substrate is deeper?
Do you have difficulty getting your gravel cleaner back in there when
doing water changes?
I think you have an anaerobic region in your substrate that is hurting
your plants. My recommendation would be to uproot the plants which are
doing poorly, gravel vac the area during your next water change, probe
your fingers deep into the substrate in that area to loosen it up and
release any trapped gases, then re-plant. Not much of a downside to this
other than the time spent. If it doesn't work, then at least half your
tank is squeaky clean :-)
Dan
Kank
wrote:
>If you see bubbles coming up out of your substrate, that is a sign of an
>anaerobic condition. To my knowledge, bubbling from the rootzone is not a
>common occurrence for amazons. Answer me a couple of questions.
>
>How long has your tank been established? More than 6 months?
>Are all the plants that are doing poorly located in the same general
>region of the tank, like the back where the substrate is deeper?
>Do you have difficulty getting your gravel cleaner back in there when
>doing water changes?
I have partly responded to this in my response to Chuck's post, but I
also wanted to tell you that the tank has been set up for about 5
months, though I originally upgraded it to a fully planted tank 6
months ago. I tore down the tank a month later due to no growth in
any plants except the crypts and anubias. I had already purchased
some laterite and eventually decided that it might help enrich the
substrate.
The wisteria is spread over the tank (3 stems, spread around so that
each is in a blank area so that it gets plenty of light). The dwarf
amazon is in the center of the tank. None of these areas show obvious
signs of anaerobic conditions, nor are they missed when vacuuming. I
discuss the bubbling of the sword plant in greater detail in my
response to Chuck, so I won't repeat that here.
>
>I think you have an anaerobic region in your substrate that is hurting
>your plants. My recommendation would be to uproot the plants which are
>doing poorly, gravel vac the area during your next water change, probe
>your fingers deep into the substrate in that area to loosen it up and
>release any trapped gases, then re-plant. Not much of a downside to this
>other than the time spent. If it doesn't work, then at least half your
>tank is squeaky clean :-)
>
I may do this, even if it is only to stir up the substrate a bit. I
do not doubt that substrate is providing no nutrient support to the
plants, but I do not believe that it is only due to anaerobic areas or
even severely anaerobic conditions in the whole substrate. I already
need to replant the wisteria every few weeks because the stems rot at
the substrate, leaving the upper plant to float away. I dig down
pretty deep and replant it, hoping I can solve its riddle and get it
to grow before losing all of the wisteria like I lost the giant hygro.
These are not expensive plants, but it is not easy to purchase them,
either, since businesses either have high minimum orders or high
shipping costs to cover the lack of profit made from most bunch
plants. If I lose the wisteria, I may end up asking someone on the
group for extras, offering to pay for the plants and shipping. I
cannot yet trade for plants, because few people are going to want
Crypt willisi or valisneria contortionist that are covered in hair
algae ;-). Only the youngest plantlets are algae free and I would
hate to send people such immature plants.
I was hoping to avoid the daily PMDD approach, but I don't consider it
a bad thing. I did not want to perform daily fertilization, so that
they tank would not suffer if left unattended for a week or two (I am
often backpacking/rock climbing and away from home). I originally
hoped to achieve moderate growth (allow sculpting but not maximum
growth) in the hopes that a balanced tank with moderate growth (not
super-bright light) would require less maintenance. Now, I am adding
KNO3 and potassium every other day, with Flourish once or twice per
week. The tank is requiring a lot more maintenance than I envisioned
when converting it to fully planted (it supported only java fern and
java moss from 1997 until mid-2000), but this has not been an undue
burden to me. I don't mind this maintenance thus far, especially if I
can soon enjoy an attractive, growing tank without unsightly hair
algae. Full PMDD is not much different than what I already perform.
I have been using Flourish as my micronutrient supplement, but it
contains no boron (element not listed on label, anyway) and is
generally not as beneficial as Tropica Master Grow seems to be for
most people. I am already dosing KNO3 and Potassium, so my
macronutrients should be covered.
Thanks for your response! As I said in my response to Chuck, I
appreciate every idea offered and the time that you so kindly spent to
consider my situation. I am not ruling anything out.
Kank
>>Iron could be the suspect in my compacta
>>amazon (dwarf), but my laterite substrate base should give up some
>>iron, right?
>
>Some. You might try making a small ball of laterite (if you have any
>left over), and placing it right at the roots of the sword. What
>are you using for your substrate? Some will pack too tightly, and
>will hurt the roots ability to get to the nutrients.
>
Substrate is 2-3mm plain washed gravel. I do not believe that it is
packed too tightly since it is pretty "typical" substrate size. It
contains no sand or tiny gravel. I have some laterite left, but I
used First Layer Pure Laterite, which is quite hard and I'm not sure
if you can ball it up easily. The sword is probably suffering from
typical sword iron deficiency. I have now added a couple of spikes
(micro/trace fertilizer spikes for aquariums) that should improve the
plant. I will keep an eye on it and use laterite if necessary.
>>[Fertilization]: I began adding KNO3 approx 1 month ago. 5ppm is my
>>target. I can tell NO3 is low because my Tropica Hygro will lie over
>>horizontally if NO3 drops below 2ppm or so. At 5ppm or so, Tropica
>
>Are you sure the nitrate is responsible there? I've never seen that
>type of effect.
>
>>would continue to put out new growth when deficient in a few
>>nutrients, especially micro/trace elements.
>
>I would agree with that statement.
>
>>nutrients. Water wisteria must be one such plant.
>
>Not in my experience.
>
That troubles me a bit, since my tank has always suffered from one
nutrient deficiency or another. Nitrogen depletion completely stops
growth in my tropica hygro, as if it simply cannot compete for the
limited nutrient in the presence of my other plants and algae. When I
got my NO3 test kit and found the water completely devoid of NO3, I
was very relieved to have found "the" or "a" problem. The very day
after adding KNO3 (I raised NO3 by 2ppm the first day to get a jump
start) the tropica hygro grew new leaves and began rising off the
substrate, where it had been lying since being covered with hair
algae. I honestly believe that in my tank, this plant serves as a N
detector. I can lapse on the KNO3 for a couple of days (continue
adding potassium) and the plant will grow slowly, produce small new
leaves, and begin to lie over horizontally, as if it cannot support
itself (plant should be buoyant, but this is what happens).
>
>>[Tank parameters]: GH=15, KH=6.5, pH=7.1, CO2= ~15ppm, temp= 75F,
>>[Tap parameters]: PO4 = 0, NO3 = 0, GH = 16, KH = 6.5, pH = 7.8
>
>Any water softener or other water alterations being done?
No. However, the tank is only now adjusting to its "new" water
supply. I'll explain that statement in a minute. This tank has been
set up for about 5 months. The plants, CO2, and lighting were added 6
months ago. After a month of dying plants (mainly giant hygro, which
I did eventually lose, but all hygro species had dying stems and no
growth), I tore down the tank and rebuilt it with the laterite base
thinking that this would help enrich the substrate by both providing
iron and CEC capability. No change in the plants. Nothing melted,
but nothing positive happened, either. Crypts were already growing
before the tear down and they continued to do so after the tear down.
Now back to the water supply. This tank had a variable mix of rain
water and municipal water. My house was only recently hooked to
municipal water supply (2-3 months ago). Before that time, I hauled
municipal water from a pump station a few miles away (insert quarters,
get water), but caught whatever rain water that I could. This
actually averaged out fairly nicely, giving my tank a GH=10 and a
KH=3-4. After hooking to the municipal line, it has taken some time
for my tank to equal the water supply considering the 10% water
changes and the dilution of incoming water. I believe that the tank
hardness is just now equalizing, since a KH=6.5 and GH=15 are the
highest I've ever measured in the tank.
>>(spray bar plugged up). It is mostly for mechanical filtration as I
>>have glued some foam to an old emperor cartridge and it requires
>>cleaning every other day or two (grrrr).
>
>Well, it's a pain, but it does mean you get lots of debris removed
>from the tank before it breaks down and pollutes the tank. This
>might actually be an issue in your problem...
>
Indeed, this does allow me to remove a lot of dead algae that will
quickly release PO4 into the water if left in the filter or on the
substrate. I have tried going a month or more without vacuuming the
tank since I have had such problems with very limited nutrients other
than CO2 and light, but this never had an obvious affect, positive or
negative, upon either the plant or algae growth. I now vacuum the
substrate to keep down PO4 and have resigned myself to adding NO3 and
whatever other nutrients that I hope to find lacking.
>>[Plant Problems] My water wisteria won't grow at all. It has never
>>grown much in my tank, the only exception being a bunch of healthy new
>>shoots it sprouted during a 6-day "dark period" that I performed to
>
>More likely other plants growth stopped/slowed, and left nutrients
>which the wisteria desperately needed.
I agree with this, but I cannot determine which nutrient is so
severely lacking that wisteria cannot get any of it. I have been very
surprised by the difference in each plant's ability to compete for
particular nutrients. Slow-growers, like my crypts and anubias, are
able to completely starve the high-growth hygro varieties in low
nutrient environments. The slow growers get their share, the hair
algae gets whatever is left, and the hygros get none. At least that
has been my experience thus far. I am sure that some nutrient will
eventually topple the algae's dominance and allow wisteria to grow
normally.
>
>>place for hair/thread algae to grow. The leaf tips at the top of the
>>plant are pale, yellowish, and small.
>
>New growth, pale yellowish : iron. But just the tips are pale? Or
>the entire new leaf?
Keep in mind that these "new" leaves are probably a month old, but
they are small with yellowish tips. They appear to be more green
toward the stem. Only these "new" leaves are even visible underneath
the carpet of hair algae.
>>The stems are slowly rotting
>>away at the substrate, as well (plants keep getting shorter as I
>
>wisteria definitely has a tendency to do this (rotting stems). In my
>experience, it's a reproduction mechanism, since it will then float up
>a leaf or stem, which will produce baby plants.
I was hoping for this in my giant hygro, but it couldn't grow enough
to reproduce and floating leaves or stems simply died completely and
eventually got sucked down to the filter intake.
>>My Compacta Amazon now grows only narrow, pale leaves that show darker
>>green only around the leaf nerves. Much of each leaf is somewhat
>>translucent
>
>What happens to the older leaves? Sounds more and more like iron...
>
>> Some leaves twist and crinkle a bit, but not drastically.
>
>Calcium is the main one indicated by twisted/crinkled leaves, but with
>15d GH, not likely a problem. Boron can sometimes show up like
>calcium...
>
Boron is something that crossed my mind when looking at the chart.
Flourish has no Boron. I do not know about my water supply's boron
content as it is not listed on my EPA report. It does show 0.3mg/L of
iron, which is neither substantial nor harmful.
>Clarify: hair algae, or beard algae? Long green flowing stuff, or
>short dark green/red/black stubble? Hair algae is long green flowing
>stuff. It is common in high iron situations...
>
This is the kicker for me. Swords are iron-hungry plants. My
substrate is iron-enriched (first layer pure laterite contains tons of
iron according to a substrate survey published in TAG). My algae
problem is hair, BUT... ..it only becomes long and flowing
sometimes. Most of the time is short and green. On plant leaves, it
tends to get long and hairy, especially in the highest light
(completely shrouds a small java fern perched high on a piece of
driftwood).
The algae indicates high iron levels, yet the amazon seems deficient
in iron. Both are not likely, since the laterite is deeply buried
(amazon should be able to reach it directly, though) and is also quite
hard (is semi-fracted an acceptable term?) and has never clouded the
water (even when first filling the tank). I do not disturb the
substrate deeply, only vacuuming the surface. I have dug deeper to
reinsert plants and fertilizer spikes, but this has never seemed to
correlate to an algae bloom. You (Chuck Gadd) were the first to
suspect high iron levels when I first brought my hair algae problem to
the group (probably 4 months ago or more). This has always been high
on my suspect list, but the algae growth and lack of wisteria growth
were the same before adding the laterite. The laterite itself seems
unlikely to cause high iron levels, especially since it seems to be
doing nothing to aide the plant roots, either.
>Overall, I'm suspecting iron deficiency. Laterite should provide it,
>but maybe you've got poor circulation in the substrate. Is your tank
>in a cool room? Is the bottom of the tank exposed to air? I'm
>thinking maybe if the substrate is cooler than the water temp, it will
>have very poor circulation, and the roots will not grow well, and
>won't pick up nutrients well. This is occasionally referred to as
>the plants having "cold feet".
>
Tank is sitting on a drawer chest (not really up to the task and
therefore reinforced by yours truly nearly 4 years ago). It also has
a 3/4" thick piece of plywood under it to make sure the surface is
flat and even. So, it does not get heat from underneath, but it is
somewhat insulated. I would like to provide some sort of heat to the
substrate just to ensure that is not cold and that it circulates, but
not sure how to do that without cables (out of the question, I am
quite poor ;-)). I think the plants would do better and I could
really take advantage of the laterite better with improved
circulation.
I notice that both Chuck and drteele mention possible concerns with
the substrate, so I will keep this in mind. My opinion up to now has
been that substrate is only now becoming "dirty" enough to provide
benefit to the plant roots. There are no darkened areas indicative of
severely anaerobic conditions. However, it has been my understanding
that all substrates are anaerobic to some extent. By keeping oxygen
low in the substrate, this makes/keeps nutrients available to the
plants (allows for reduction of some nutrients). I have been led to
believe (from Walstad's book and other sources) that a few bubbles
here and there indicated a living substrate, not unhealthy conditions.
The main bubbling that I get from the substrate is unlikely from
anaerobic gas production as it comes from the very center of the dwarf
amazon. I have believed this gas to be O2 as the plant pumps O2 into
the substrate to feed. It seemed logical that this heavy root feeder
would produce enough O2 to actually bubble up this way, but this may
be a mistaken conclusion. The plant is allowed lots of light, giving
it plenty of energy/O2 to perform this activity. Yet, the plant is
obviously deficient in some nutrient, so I assumed that the bubbling
was evidence of it attempting to extract nutrients from the substrate
(in vain, obviously).
I thank everyone that read my post and especially both Chuck and
drteele for responding (and so quickly to boot). I appreciate each
and every idea that is offered. Since many of the ideas have been
running through my mind now and again, I may often counter your idea
with some of my "reasons" why that idea has seemed unlikely to me in
the past. This is not because I think that the idea is wrong, but
because I hope that you can provide an insight into the analysis that
I have not come up with on my own. I have been desperate for a
solution to my hair algae for months now and so I do not rule anything
out. I am not a chemist, so I only have a minimal grasp of the
complicated chemistry ongoing in a contained aquatic environment. I
suspect that my tropica hygro responds to low NO3 by stopping growth
and laying over (this may change), but I do not rule out the
possibility that NO3 is only indirectly related to this effect by
relation to some other nutrient. Perhaps increased NO3 allows some
other process vital to the plant to occur. Perhaps this process
occurs even in low N situations in other tanks (I have not heard of
anyone besides myself that sees no growth in this and other hygro
plants with a nitrogen shortage). This is a complicated environment
and a truly "cutting-edge" type of hobby simply because the modern
understanding of biological chemical processes cannot yet explain many
of the effects seen in planted aquaria, especially since much of our
plant chemistry has historically been focused upon terrestrial plants.
Heck, for all I know, my vals may be putting out allochemicals that
whisper depressing comments to the water wisteria, causing it to give
up and die :-). Following this theory, Giant Hygro had the least
self-esteem of all my plants and therefore was the easiest to kill
off.
drteele
Kank wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:41:36 -0500, drteele <drt...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> The wisteria is spread over the tank (3 stems, spread around so that
> each is in a blank area so that it gets plenty of light). The dwarf
> amazon is in the center of the tank. None of these areas show obvious
> signs of anaerobic conditions, nor are they missed when vacuuming. I
> discuss the bubbling of the sword plant in greater detail in my
> response to Chuck, so I won't repeat that here.
>
I wonder if wisteria, being a bunch plant, prefers to be grouped together. I
have heard of other plants preferring this planting method to being
individually planted (crypts or sag's, IIRC). Maybe wisteria is this way also.
I have some in my 60 Gal Hex (very tall) which is just barely surviving. Low
light and only recent PMDD supplementation.I wonder if your planting method is
damaging the stems. Have you had any success with any stem plants? I know when
I first started, I was accidently crushing the stems either when I pushed them
into the substrate or when I patted the gravel around them to keep them from
floating up. Possible?
> I was hoping to avoid the daily PMDD approach, but I don't consider it
> a bad thing. I did not want to perform daily fertilization, so that
> they tank would not suffer if left unattended for a week or two (I am
> often backpacking/rock climbing and away from home). I originally
> hoped to achieve moderate growth (allow sculpting but not maximum
> growth) in the hopes that a balanced tank with moderate growth (not
> super-bright light) would require less maintenance. Now, I am adding
> KNO3 and potassium every other day, with Flourish once or twice per
> week. The tank is requiring a lot more maintenance than I envisioned
> when converting it to fully planted (it supported only java fern and
> java moss from 1997 until mid-2000), but this has not been an undue
> burden to me. I don't mind this maintenance thus far, especially if I
> can soon enjoy an attractive, growing tank without unsightly hair
> algae. Full PMDD is not much different than what I already perform.
> I have been using Flourish as my micronutrient supplement, but it
> contains no boron (element not listed on label, anyway) and is
> generally not as beneficial as Tropica Master Grow seems to be for
> most people. I am already dosing KNO3 and Potassium, so my
> macronutrients should be covered.
>
Hmmmm.... it sounds that if you went the PMDD route, you would certainly have
fewer supplement bottles below your tank! :-) If you do the PMDD would replace
all the other supplements you mentioned. I just made up my first batch of
PMDD. Took 20 minutes and made enough for 2 1/2 months. Also, you can always
start with a smaller dose and work your way up to a point where you are
comfortable. Try starting with a 1/2 dose at your daily fish feeding or maybe
a full dose every other day. That's no worse than what you are already doing.
As for your time away from home, it seems that if you don't feed the fish,
fertilization should not be necessary either.
You have hair algae? Isn't that usually an indicator of excessive iron
content? Maybe a reduction in Flourish for a while would help.
> Thanks for your response! As I said in my response to Chuck, I
> appreciate every idea offered and the time that you so kindly spent to
> consider my situation. I am not ruling anything out.
Just trying to brainstorm on your behalf.
Dan
Arwen Sutton and Nicholas Murray
Just responding to one point:
> "The compacta amazon grew quite nicely for months while the wisteria has
> not changed. Amazon showed no response to jobes spikes inserted a month
> ago, but it does look to be iron-deficient and it pumps a lot of O2 into
> the substrate
> trying to get nutrients (bubbles up often)."
>
> "If you see bubbles coming up out of your substrate, that is a sign of an
> anaerobic condition. To my knowledge, bubbling from the rootzone is not a
> common occurrence for amazons."
My E. amazonicus has always grown prolifically, and it sends up large bubbles
from the substrate immediately adjacent its base every minute or so. It only
does this when the lights are on, and stops doing it when I have let my yeast
reactor become exhausted. Consequently, I had always assumed that these
bubbles were O2 rather than CH4 or whatever. My substrate is coarse sand and
clay/shale chips with a small amount of added laterite; I would be really
surprised if it has become anaerobic. I wouldn't take the bubbles alone as
good evidence that Kank's substrate is hypoxic.
Nick
Chuck Gadd
<arwe...@acay.com.au> wrote:
>reactor become exhausted. Consequently, I had always assumed that these
>bubbles were O2 rather than CH4 or whatever. My substrate is coarse sand and
>clay/shale chips with a small amount of added laterite; I would be really
You are correct. Plants will produce O2 from their roots, and that
will give of bubbles. Bubbles alone do not signify anaerobic
conditions. In fact, the plants are helping to prevent anaerobic
conditions by providing O2 into the substrate.
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Wayne Jones
that plants need except for phosphate. If I see deficiency syptoms I just
add more of everything. PMDD works fine and for this and Tropica Mastergrow
plus KNO3 seems to work even better. I do give sword plants some Jobes plant
sticks but that is about it. This method requires regular water changes but
the results seems to be pretty good. These fertilizers cover all the
nutrient bases and you don't have to sit around wondering which nutrients
are missing. You can always tell if you have overdone it just by observing
the levels of green spot algae on the glass. If you have a lot of green spot
algae on the glass then you should back off on the fertilizer.
There is this idea that is pretty widely believed that adding nutrients to
the water column is somehow bad. I don't really buy this at all. If you have
fish there are always nutrients in the water column. However if you don't
add some fertilizer it is quite likely that either iron or potassium will
soon become the limiting nutrient. The plants don't grow and algae which
appears to be better adapted to these conditions takes over. The purpose of
adding fertilizer is to add the nutrients that plants require that fish
waste doesn't provide in sufficient quantity. It makes no difference if they
are added to the substrate or to the water column but the water column is
easier to control. Just do a water change to remove it. Algae just doesn't
seem to do well as long as phosphate levels are low and the plants have all
they need to thrive. You can dose the substrate with Jobe's plant sticks
like you are doing or you can add KNO3 to the water column or you can do
both. Both seems to work best for me.
That said I would bet that low iron is your problem but I wouldn't add it
separately from the other nutrients. I would just make sure that whatever
fertilizer I was using contained an appropriate portion of iron. Iron and
CO2 are two nutrients that aquatic plants really seem to have difficulty
obtaining and are often limiting in nature. Providing them really can lead
to amazing growth rates. Also just because you have a laterite substrate
doesn't mean that all your plants will be able to obtain iron. The iron
probably won't be available to some of your plants. Adding chelated iron the
the water column will solve that problem. I know for sure that an iron rich
substrate is not necessary. Plants can grow very well in plain gravel aged
gravel but I have never seen mine do well without adding iron to the water
column.
Wayne
"Kank" <kankREM...@qx.net> wrote in message
news:7eh55t4do1qu8ocv4...@4ax.com...
AROWANA
>[Tank parameters]: GH=15, KH=6.5, pH=7.1, CO2= ~15ppm, temp= 75F,
>NO3=5ppm, PO4=0 (today PO4 was 0, but its sometimes as high as 0.5ppm,
>though usually less than 0.05ppm).
I really dont get the swing in PO4 reads. Chechk it carefully. It
can't be 0.5ppm and then 0.05ppm. MOre than this, which PO4 are you
measuring? Ortho-phosphates?
>[Plant Problems] My water wisteria won't grow at all. It has never
>grown much in my tank, the only exception being a bunch of healthy new
>shoots it sprouted during a 6-day "dark period" that I performed to
>slow down an algae bloom (lack of light not binding iron during this
>time???).
not binding is okay, but not photosynthesing either means... still
iron in the water!
> That was 2-3 months ago and since returning the tank to a
>normal lighting schedule, the wisteria has done nothing but serve as a
>place for hair/thread algae to grow. The leaf tips at the top of the
>plant are pale, yellowish, and small.
what about Mg? if your water comes from the tap.. despite the GHis
very high I'm not sure there is enough Mg.
Also SO4 and Cl2- must be present. And you haven't checked them. Why
for a while you don't give a try to RO water... reducing the GH ...
let's say down to about 5 german degrees but using RO water with
proper added salts?
AROWANA
Michael Cerda
>grown much in my tank, the only exception being a bunch of healthy new
>shoots it sprouted during a 6-day "dark period" that I performed to
>slow down an algae bloom (lack of light not binding iron during this
>time???).
Mine was doing the same thing. I upped the TMG to 1/2 recommended dosage. I
actually measured nitrates
in my tank for the first time. I don't know what happened but unfortunetly
the nitrates are down to zero again.
But, during that time my wisteria grew like mad. What was it? I keep the
light the same. Saw a peak in
nitrates. I have a CO2 bell but that has been a constant. I think it was
using the TMG. I keep, according
to my test kit:-(, 0.1 ppm Fe.
I think the theory is that if your wisteria is growing then the algae will
not grow as much. Try the TMG.
If you have average hard water then go with the directions on the bottle. I
have very soft water and
dose very carefully when the materials contain metals.
-Michael Cerda
Kank
<ce...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>I think the theory is that if your wisteria is growing then the algae will
>not grow as much. Try the TMG.
>If you have average hard water then go with the directions on the bottle. I
>have very soft water and
>dose very carefully when the materials contain metals.
>
>-Michael Cerda
I do believe that I should have softer water to achieve better plant
growth (harder water tends to inhibit growth in many plants).
However, I have had water that was half of my present hardness in the
past. In other words, 6 months ago my water was GH=8 and KH=3. This
was because I have only recently been hooked to municipal water.
Prior to that, I was hauling municipal water and mixing it with rain
water in a cistern. I have been using only municipal water for about
2 months, so my GH and KH have been rising steadily as I performed
water changes. They have now reached the levels in my tap.
The wisteria never grew in the softer water. Since I know the calcium
hardness of the water, I can almost certainly say that there is enough
Magnesium. If many people can grow wisteria in soft water (less total
hardness than the Magnesium hardness of my water alone), then I can't
really see how I would need Magnesium. However, please feel free to
convince me. I have plenty of MgSO4 that I ordered along with some
KNO3 and KCL, so that I can supplement Mg if I must. I won't do so
experimentally, though, because I do not want to increase my water
hardness even further. I intend to start mixing rain water back into
the tap water, just to keep my hardness down. However, the hardness
levels that I now have do not seem to affect the plants. The wisteria
seems of no use to me in this observation since it has never grown in
either the softer or harder water ranges that my tank has seen.
I have a strong suspicion towards iron toxicity now. During the past
week, I have been forced to go through another dark period in my tank.
By mere coincidence, my posts asking for assistance were prelude to
another tremendous bloom of long green algae (hair algae, from Chuck's
descriptions). So, while my plants continue to show signs of iron
deficiency, the algae shows signs of high levels of iron. This is
very strange, but my theory is now that some nutrient, possibly iron,
is inhibiting the growth of certain plants. My sword plant is now
growing much faster after enriching it's root area, but the leaves are
still narrower than normal and the veins stand out abnormally. The
majority of each leaf is still translucent. Perhaps Boron is to
blame, but the tropica hygro shows no deficiencies whatsoever. It is
healthy and growing rapidly.
I have no iron test kit. I have Seachem's phosphate and nitrate kits,
which I have found to be reliable after a few misreads before getting
the procedure just right. I have to order such test kits as I don't
have a selection of test kits available without driving 35 miles into
a busy area of a neighboring town and paying typical "pet store"
prices, to boot. I can order an iron kit just as I ordered the PO4
and NO3 kits, but I"m tired of purchasing test kits and am so very
financially strapped right now that an iron test kit is down on the
list of priorities quite a bit.
If iron is at 0 or thereabouts, I cannot explain the tremendous
problems that I've been having with hair algae. However, if iron is
abundant, I cannot easily explain why wisteria will not grow (at all)
or why the dwarf amazon is now deficient in some nutrient. Amazons
are root feeders, but my root supplements have only changed its growth
(and increased it), not met all of its needs. I do not wish to add
laterite to the tank unless I am more sure of the iron levels, because
I already feel that iron may be at high levels. Keep in mind,
however, that wisteria did not grow *before* adding the laterite base
to the substrate, either. The plant growth was not altered by moving
from plain washed gravel to plain gravel overlying a laterite-enriched
base. I am only going to be able to better answer the iron question
by testing my water for iron. The closest place that will test my
water for me is the very same place that I can purchase an overpriced
test kit.
Boron is not added to my water and my water report does not tell me
what the boron levels in my tap are. Seachem's Flourish does not
claim to include boron, so I would not be surprised if boron
deficiency showed up in some plants. However, tropica hygro,
valisneria, and crypt willisi grow healthy and with no deficiency
symptoms. Water wisteria does not grow and in fact is still slowly
dying. Boron would surely not cause such extreme differences. I have
gathered from Chuck Gadd, others here, and sources elsewhere, that
plants will continue to grow without micronutrients. They will just
grow deformed in some way. That has not been my experience in this
tank. Without NO3 additions, only crypts, anubias barteri, and
valisneria grow at all. I must add NO3 to keep my tropica hygro
growing.
However, I overdid the NO3, apparently. After NO3 registering 0 a
couple of weeks ago, I tried to push NO3 back up to 5ppm too quickly
by adding 2ppm per day over 3 days. Evidently, I have now experienced
the fabled green water that is so fondly mentioned in this forum.
There were short (0.5cm) hairs of pale algae floating about that was
not efficiently removed by my filter. The 3-day dark period has rid
this problem completely and it also had a big affect on the hair
algae. I am now only giving the tank 5 hours of light per day. It
still gets some light from a south-facing window nearby so that most
of the plants are now unattractively facing this window, but the tank
lights are only on for half the period that they were. This is not
good for the plants and I know that short lighting periods are not the
solution to algae, but I have had no choice this past week. My tank
is now again sparkling clear, so I will probably increase the lighting
period slowly over the next week or so. I will not go overboard on
the NO3 again, because I certainly overestimated the effects that
adding 6ppm of NO3 over a 3-day period would have.
Oh, and this dark period was only 3 days in duration, so the water
wisteria did not grow as it did during the last one (which was 6 or 7
days long). Although the tropica hygro became very unattractive
during this dark period, none of the plants are extremely affected and
they should recover fine. I only hope that I can solve the riddle of
my tank's chemistry before giving up and reinstalling the 20w standard
fluorescent.
Thanks for everybody's input and for reading my post,
Wayne Jones
as you have no way to measure it. It should be added as part of a balanced
fertilizer recipe. How do you know that your calcium and/or your magnesium
levels are adequate or if you have high iron levels where would it come
from? I think you are making things too complicated. Just find out was is in
your city water and add what is missing. Every time you do a water change
add the trace element fertilizer and whatever clacium or magnesium is
required. You can figure out the dosage by looking at the PMDD section of
the Krib. Since you have an NO3 test kit you can dose a combination of
potassium nitrate and potassium chloride or potassium sulphate separately if
you want. Eventually your algae problem should go away. SAEs or some other
appropriate algae eater will greatly speed things up.
I wouldn't bet that you have high iron levels although you might. Just
because high iron levels can cause a certain type of algae to grow doesn't
mean that if you have similar looking algae that you have high iron levels.
I like your idea that high iron levels in the water column might be toxic to
plants and thereby promote algae growth. I just don't see where such an iron
level would come from. I don't think toxic iron levels could possibly come
from the laterite.
Wayne
"Kank" <kankREM...@qx.net> wrote in message >
Chuck Gadd
wrote:
>If you don't have an iron test kit then you shouldn't dose iron separately
>as you have no way to measure it. It should be added as part of a balanced
>fertilizer recipe. How do you know that your calcium and/or your magnesium
But since almost all trace mixes use Iron to determine their correct
dosage, you've got problems.
I dose trace elements without benefit of any test kit. My method is
very simple: I dose just enough so that I don't see any iron
deficiency. Every few weeks, I'll reduce my trace mix dosage until I
start seeing deficiency again. Then I bump it up just enough to
eliminate the deficiency. It's very unscientific, and not at all
precise, but it lets me achieve my desired result : lush fast growing
plants in an algae free tank.
>required. You can figure out the dosage by looking at the PMDD section of
>the Krib. Since you have an NO3 test kit you can dose a combination of
I disagree. The PMDD dosage info is all based on "dose enough so you
have the right amount of iron".
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Kank
wrote:
>How do you know that your calcium and/or your magnesium
>levels are adequate or if you have high iron levels where would it come
>from?
Sorry. I did not repeat all the information in my first post, which
was a week or so ago. I know the total permanent/general hardness and
the calcium hardness, which leaves the rest to be magnesium hardness,
at least according to my limited chemical understanding. The numbers
aren't nearby at the moment, but I recall that the calcium hardness of
my tap water is about 2/3 of the total hardness. With a GH of 14, I
think that Magnesium would be abundant, though it is also added in
tiny amounts in Seachem Flourish.
>I think you are making things too complicated. Just find out was is in
>your city water and add what is missing. Every time you do a water change
>add the trace element fertilizer and whatever clacium or magnesium is
>required. You can figure out the dosage by looking at the PMDD section of
>the Krib. Since you have an NO3 test kit you can dose a combination of
>potassium nitrate and potassium chloride or potassium sulphate separately if
>you want. Eventually your algae problem should go away. SAEs or some other
>appropriate algae eater will greatly speed things up.
>
Unfortunately, I have little choice. I have already tried adding
everything except boron. Adding KNO3 definitely helps the tropica
hygro compete for nitrogen, but nothing helps the wisteria. Keep in
mind that we are not talking about minor deficiency here. My problem
causes a complete stunting of growth. Previously, my Nitrogen
limitations had similar effects in my tropica and giant hygros (of
which, I lost the giant hygro before discovering the N limitation).
The tropica responded immediately to NO3. I had already been adding
Potassium and Flourish, but not consistently. I have tried various
combinations and dosings.
My water report shows no missing nutrient, but it also does not list
many of the nutrients that I am interested in. I have tried two
approaches to this situation, neither of which has reduced the algae.
I have had periods where I added CO2, potassium and flourish, leaving
only macronutrients to be added through fish food. After suffering
from my prior bloom of hair algae, I stopped supplementing altogether.
I only added micronutrients through water changes. This slowed algae
growth, but it also slowed plant growth as well. After getting the
test kits to determine PO4 and NO3 levels, I began to supplement KNO3.
Since the water wisteria did not respond while the tropica hygro
(rosanervis) certainly did, I slowly began adding more of everything.
I ended up adding potassium, flourish, and KNO3 every other day. NO3
levels began to fall so I eventually overdosed KNO3 until having the
algae problems of the past week.
I don't see how to simplify this further. Like yourself, I always
strive to simplify as much as possible. I catch people making things
too complicated all the time and I try to take a step back every once
in awhile and re-evalutate my situation with the simplest approach
possible. Leaving the tank to itself, dosing "everything" except
boron, or various levels in between those two extremes have not helped
my algae problem. While the long hairy stuff will go away every once
in awhile, the short green fuzz is tenacious and loves something about
my water. Water wisteria certainly loves nothing about my water.
>I wouldn't bet that you have high iron levels although you might. Just
>because high iron levels can cause a certain type of algae to grow doesn't
>mean that if you have similar looking algae that you have high iron levels.
>I like your idea that high iron levels in the water column might be toxic to
>plants and thereby promote algae growth. I just don't see where such an iron
>level would come from. I don't think toxic iron levels could possibly come
>from the laterite.
>
You are probably correct. I believe that the hair algae only gets bad
when I dose Flourish too often. Even though the iron level in
Flourish is not very high, it is the only external source of iron. If
I stop adding stuff to the water, the long hair algae tends to subside
to a short carpet. Plant growth eventually suffers, though, since my
tank is apparently not abundant in macronutrients such as nitrogen or
phosphates. I succeeded in bringing phosphates to 0, according to my
Seachem test. This did not reduce the short green algae's tendency to
cover the glass and plant leaves.
Obviously, I now have far too much light for the plant growth that I
am achieving, which is a big problem. However, wisteria is
theoretically my fastest grower. It does nothing but die. Tropica
hygro is not a very fast grower, though I am now pleased with it's
healthy, bushy growth.
The only sure way to prevent algae in my tank is to add carbon to the
filter, which happened probably 4 months ago. I had one last
cartridge for my Emperor 280 filter, so I used it. This stopped all
growth in both plants and algae for a few days. At the time, I hoped
that the plants would somehow take control as the nutrients built back
up, leaving the algae to suffer. This did not happen and my tank soon
resumed its former growth characteristics. Valisneria is my fastest
growing plant, but I think algae is my overall top grower if I were to
get dry weights of the portions of each that are removed from the
tank. Algae simply wins the nutrient contest in my tank, telling me
that I am limited in something. At the same time, I am repeatedly
told (by RAFP posters and in print and web publications) that missing
micronutrients can slow growth and create visible signs in the plants,
but that micronutrients do not tend to stop growth completely. This
is why my nitrogen limitation was so hard to find: my plants did not
grow from the beginning, so there was never any signs of deficiency in
new leaves. There were no new leaves and the old leaves just became
covered in algae.
I do not terribly mind if I cannot grow water wisteria, but I think
that if this "easy" plant will not grow, then something is seriously
wrong in my tank. I may add another variety of fast growing plant,
but my fear is that it will not grow, either. I tend to suspect a lack
of nutrients rather than an overabundance simply because my slow
growers have tended to grow faster than my fast growers (certain
limitations favor slow growers). However, a toxic nutrient would seem
to be the more logical explanation for why water wisteria will not
grow even in the presence of light, CO2, Nitrogen, Phosphorous,
Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, and all of the micro and trace elements
that are in Seachem Flourish (no boron added and do not know boron
content of tap water). Boron would surely show up in my other plants
if it was lacking, so no nutrient limitation seems likely unless my
laterite substrate and Flourish supplementation is not supplying
enough iron. Considering that I know associate my hair algae blooms
with my highest dosings of Flourish, I doubt that iron is the missing
ingredient.
This leaves me little choice but to assume that either extreme
allotropy is occurring between some plant/algae and wisteria or that a
nutrient is at levels that are toxic to water wisteria. Carpets of
algae do cover the wisteria. This carpet becomes very long during my
blooms, but tends to stay shorter at other times. It is usually just
a 0.5-inch mat of green algae covering the leaves of all my plants.
Wayne Jones
have an iron test kit just add such and such an amount of PMDD with water
changes.
Wayne
"Chuck Gadd" <cg...@cfxc.com> wrote in message
news:3a625044...@news.uswest.net...
drteele
If you suspect allelotropy, do you have another tank you can transplant some of
the wisteria into? IIRC, vallisneria is one of the plants which might display
allelotropic behavior. If you can separate the two, maybe your wisteria will
recover??
I also recall wisteria prefers soft/medium hard water. Your GH is 15, maybe a
little to high for this plant.
Dan
Wayne Jones
and nitrate and trace elements in reasonably appropriate amounts then I
would have to agree that it is not a nutrient deficiency. I had trouble
growing that plant at first too. I didn't do anything and one day it just
decided to grow. I can't remember which plant it is but lot's of people have
trouble growing either water sprite or water wisteria even though others
have no problem at all. I think I would switch to water sprite if the
wisteria doesn't grow for you.
Wayne
"Kank" <kankREM...@qx.net> wrote in message
news:tla56to4qbu0m1gse...@4ax.com...
Kank
wrote:
>Kank,
>
>If you suspect allelotropy, do you have another tank you can transplant some of
>the wisteria into? IIRC, vallisneria is one of the plants which might display
>allelotropic behavior. If you can separate the two, maybe your wisteria will
>recover??
>
I want to do this, but would have to get a small tank to do it.
10-gals are cheap at Wal-mart and I could probably light it with a
cheap PC setup using screw-in bulbs in a custom reflector of some type
(Wisteria wouldn't need much light). However, I wouldn't be able to
cover the tank, filter it, or get CO2 into it without some more
inexpensive ingenuity, so I might not be able to provide conditions
close enough to the main tank to provide useful observations if it did
or did not respond differently. Still, if the wisteria grew at all
while providing no insight into my problems with the main tank, at
least I would have a source of fresh wisteria cuttings to replace the
dying specimens in the main tank <grin>.
>I also recall wisteria prefers soft/medium hard water. Your GH is 15, maybe a
>little to high for this plant.
>
>Dan
>
I may have to buy some fast growing plant from someone to remedy this,
but I do feel that there is something wrong with the tank since it is
not usually nutrient-rich (phosphates measured 0 today, NO3 was 2ppm,
and I haven't added other fertilizers in 2 weeks due to algae bloom),
but algae never ceases to outgrow plants. Though I don't have
extremely fast growth, my valisneria and tropica hygro do manage quite
a bit of growth (the vals are fastest), yet algae has never been
defeated as the primary competitor (even with PO4 at 0). I am sure
that a very fast growing plant would help in this regard, but the
abundance of PMDD nutrients (except boron), the limitation of
phosphate, and even the CO2 injection should all favor the plants,
especially after the tank has been set up this long (6 months, 4
months since tearing down to add laterite).
In regards to the hard water, yes a GH of 15 is a little high for
comfort and maximum plant growth, but wisteria is reported by most
references to at least grow slowly in even harder water than my own.
However, this is rather moot in light of the fact that my water had a
GH of 8-10 six months ago. Wisteria certainly grows in a GH of 10
according to all references and accounts that I've seen. While I do
feel that my water is now harder than preferable, I cannot easily
blame hardness alone considering the history that I've had with the
plant. The only new shoots that it has every noticeably grown were
during the 6-7 day dark period 3 months or so ago, while the hardness
did not change during that dark period. Some nutrient or allochemical
was either made available or made unavailable to allow the plant to
suddenly grow.
It grew these new shoots quickly, too, showing that it had been
storing energy reserves of some sort. Wisteria and anubias were the
only plants that grew during this dark period, as the other plants
were not able to continue growing in the absence of light. This
points to nutrient deficiency, since some plant may be out-competing
wisteria for certain nutrients, but I have now certainly endured both
nutrient starvation (no fertilization or water changes for a month or
more, especially limited by N) and nutrient overdose (the recent algae
bloom involving overdose of NO3 and probably Flourish). Flourish has
been associated with both blooms of hair algae, even if only by
coincidence. While the tank needs to further recover right now, I
would bet that I could again get a bloom of long, flowing hair algae
by dosing Flourish heavily. Sodium and Iron are the highest
components of Flourish by weight (besides chlorine), but I still do
not have an iron test kit to prove my water's iron content (I plan to
get one as soon as I am able, but my finances are extremely tight
right now, which keeps aquarium items low on my priority list).
Flourish may not contain the best PMDD ratio of micro and trace
elements, but others have had success with it. I plan to eventually
try TMG, especially since it contains Boron. However, I feel that my
fertilization experiments have made every nutrient available except
for Boron, which remains an unknown. Previous dark period 3 months
ago was unlikely to have suddenly made Boron available (no water
change), which can only lead me to believe that the plant is either
unhappy with its fellow tank mates or it is seeing toxic levels of
some nutrient which inhibits its growth.
The only reasonable course of action is to create a control tank where
I could test various nutrient additions on wisteria growth. That is
unlikely at the moment, so perhaps I should look into getting another
species of fast growing plant (one which is known to grow in hard
water, too, since I won't have the history of various water sources
that I've had with wisteria).
Lastly, I still am aware that my history with the plant has made me
view it in a complex manner. While the variables have changed in the
6 months I've had the plant, perhaps the lack of growth is now due to
a different cause than in the past, making my prior observations moot.
I understand the need to simplify this situation, since wisteria is
merely a well-known variety of plant that does not suffer from
mysterious supernatural phenomenon. There has to be a reasonable
explanation why it doesn't grow in my tank and it is likely a very
simple one. I am trying to bear this in mind, but I do wish to fully
explain the current and past conditions that this plant has
experienced in order to provide the most information possible. I hope
I am not making the situation impossible for all of you to understand.
I appreciate all of the support that everyone has given me during the
past 6 months since I made my tank a fully planted tank with the
higher light necessary for such plant varieties. Light likely remains
my over-abundant nutrient and the source of my incessant algae, but I
cannot change this until wisteria or some other plant grows fast
enough to ensure that nutrients are being consumed as fast as
possible.
Thanks for the response and have a great day!