Help with stand, substrate, water, lighting, and filter for a new 200 gallon plant tank...
Matt (The Original)
can't find straight answers in the FAQs and the web sites. So if some kind
souls are willing, perhaps they could help shed some light for me?
My experience with fishkeeping is about 10 years of keeping fish, and fish
only, until just recently, when I decided to delve into the world of live
plants. I have two 55 gallon tanks running right now, with several hardy
plant types doing rather well, although rather sparsely planted, due to the
lack of CO2 injection. With the 200 gallon tank, I will be diving in full
speed ahead into serious aquatic gardening. So, without further preamble,
let me get to the stream of bewildered questions. :)
The first thing I am going to be doing is constructing a stand for this
tank. Given that the tank will weigh maybe 200lbs empty, and that fresh
water weighs ~8lbs per gallon (1600lbs), and with the substrate (200lbs?), I
am looking at about a ton... That's a lot of weight. I have rather limited
carpentry knowledge, and I have been looking at the commercially built
stands, and trying to pick up designs that I can actually DO... And I'm
coming to the conclusion that it's going to be TOUGH for me to make a stand
that will take a ton of weight continuously, and actually look decent. I
don't know where to start. Which wood will be affordable, easy to work
with, available, support 2000lbs, and look good doing it? And once I have
the wood, what would be a good design? If anyone could provide blueprints,
I would be extremely grateful. :)
Second order of business... Substrate. I have seen such a CONFUSING jumble
of words and mineral names, and layers, and vermiculite this, laterite that,
and no website will give me a good substrate plan that will be easy to get,
and will work well. It seems that everyone that is getting any results in
the growing of aquatic plants is using layered substrate. Doesn't layered
substrate start to look terrible once you change your mind on the location
of a plant, uproot it, and pull the lower layers up to the top? How would
you separate your substrate to re-do your tank when the time comes? With
those questions asked, I'll assume that someone has put my mind to rest
somehow, and go on with the rest of the question. Will someone give me a
good substrate system (that is readily available) without going overboard
with complex chemistry words? My experience in the realm of aquatic
substrate chemistry is limited, and the higher level knowledge of chemical
compounds will come to me slowly. I realize that my tap water will
determine some of the substrate needs, but since all I know of my tap water
is that it's hard as hell, about 8.2 pH from the tap, and heavy in chlorine,
I am looking for a middle of the road substrate system that won't push any
elements to toxic levels if my tap water provides a bit.
Thirdly, water preparation and testing... I need a good test kit that will
test for all the important water specifications, quickly, and with a minimum
of hassle. I have a simple test kit that measures pH, chlorine, ammonia,
and hardness. This test kit is fine, except that it won't allow me to test
any of the other parameters. Also, the hardness test is irritating, in that
it uses three different solutions in different amounts to test it. You fill
the test tube, add three drops of solution one, four drops of solution two,
and (this is the irritating part) add one drop at a time of the third
solution mixing in between) until the water changes color, from pink to
blue. The range is as follows: 0-8 drops is soft, 8-15 drops is moderately
hard, 15-30 is hard, and over 30 is very hard. you use three drops of one,
four of two, and ~30 of three?!?! Needless to say, testing hardness is a
bitch, and it drains that last solution bottle FAST. And it doesn't tell
you specifics of the hardness, just whether its "hard", "soft", or some
such. Compare that to the pH test... Fill the tube, add three drops, and
check the color. I can deal with that. :) I have always added the water to
my tanks with a bit of water conditioner, and let nature take it's course,
but seeing as now I will be required to strictly monitor my water chemistry,
and match it on water changes, I will need a system of pretreating tap
water. I was thinking of a 55 gallon drum with a peat filter to lower
hardness, and drop the pH of the water... Any ideas on this?
Fourth up is lighting... Since metal halide bulbs and such are so
expensive, I was going to go with fluorescent bulbs, mounted in a box
suspended over the aquarium. The problem is that I need LOTS of light to
penetrate to the bottom of this tank, as I intend to support many plants,
some of which, without a doubt, will have high light requirements. With 48
inch bulbs, and a 6 foot tank, there are going to be some positioning
issues, I would think. How many bulbs should I stuff into the hanging box
(hanging 12 inches above the tank), and how would I offset the bulbs to
properly light the whole tank evenly and brightly? Would I go for 4 bulbs,
or 6 bulbs? Where would I mount them in the box? Is there a single ballast
that would light all the bulbs, or will I need two or three? What kinds of
wires should I use, and what kinds of endcaps are good? What kind of
reflective surface or paint should I use inside?
Lastly, the filter... The tank will be a bit heavy on the fish load, as I
fancy too many fish to populate it too sparsely. I am thinking about a full
compliment of algae eaters, a huge shoal of cardinal tetras, and some large,
peaceful show fish, of undetermined (as of yet) species. I need filtration
that will be able to keep up. Should I go with a couple canister filters, a
canister/other combination, or one gigantic wet/dry filter? Is it possible
to use a wet/dry filter without getting the tank drilled and taking up tank
space with the... The... The "thingies"? What options do I have?
Thank you for actually reading this to the end!!! And thank you in advance
for any answers I get! :)
Matt
JAM
dont have 10 years of experience with fish, but these idea worked for
me.
> tank. Given that the tank will weigh maybe 200lbs empty, and that fresh
I made my stand out of 2x4s. I got the plans off the net. Sorry I dont
remember where, most likely the Krib. Anyway, with enough uprights and
with the boards running long side up and down you should not have any
problem. Use 4x4s if you want, but they are going to be a lot harder to
work with. I covered the frame and built the hood with rough cut
cedar. It looks great. Even my wife thinks so. You dont have to be a
great carpenter to work with rough cut ceder. You should take extra
care when building the frame. Make every measurement twice, be sure it
is level and square.
>
> Second order of business... Substrate. It seems that everyone that is getting any results in
> the growing of aquatic plants is using layered substrate. Doesn't layered
> substrate start to look terrible once you change your mind on the location
> of a plant, uproot it, and pull the lower layers up to the top?
I use a layers of kitty litter, topsoil and sand. Use something more
expensive if you want, but it has worked fine for me. I think the
different colored layers look good. Ever see those bottles filled with
colored sand. Thats what it looks like. If you are worried about
messing it up, just dont push any plants in near the edge. I think it
just makes for a more interesting pattern.
How would
> you separate your substrate to re-do your tank when the time comes?
If you are going to completely redo the tank, just throw the substrate
away and start again. After all its just cheap dirt and sand. If you
are just changing plants, pull gently, use a net to catch some of the
dripings and dont worry about it. If you are careful, you shouldnt stir
things up worth worrying about.
With
> those questions asked, I'll assume that someone has put my mind to rest
> somehow, and go on with the rest of the question. Will someone give me a
> good substrate system (that is readily available) without going overboard
> with complex chemistry words? My experience in the realm of aquatic
> substrate chemistry is limited, and the higher level knowledge of chemical
> compounds will come to me slowly.
Heres something that might interest you from a posting futher up that I
just read.
post follows.
""I don't use it personally, but here is some interesting research that
was posted on the "Aquatic Plants Mailing List" a few days ago:
> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:30:41 -0400
> From: "Jamie Johnson"
> Subject: Substrate research
> Hi All,
> It's been kinda slow this afternoon at work, so I started a little
> project I've been curious about for some time now. My tanks use a
> kitty litter/sand substrate and I've never had any complaints. First
> off, I don't move the big plants around to disturb anything serious.
> And, second, I don't have my 'mining cichlids' in those tanks,
> either. My cichlid tank is about to undergo big changes, I'm
> replacing the gravel bed with Fluorite. Being born with a very
> stubborn, analytical brain, I had to research. I was very curious to
> find what my substrates were made of, elementally. Since I work at
> a lab and do trace metal analysis, I knew it was only a matter of
> time before I got the best of myself.
>
> I did analysis on 3 samples: Fluorite, Wal-Mart Special Kitty litter,
> and soil from my garden. 1g of dry sample was pulverized by a
> mortal/pestal and digested according to Method 3050B EPA Soil
> method. *Disclaimer of method - This is not a total digestion. It is a
> very strong acid digestion that will dissolve almost all elements that
> could become "environmentally available". By design, elements
> bound in silicate structures are not normally dissolved by this
> procedure as they are not usually mobile in the environment.* This
> is still a VERY good representation of what is in the sample, as we
> use it daily for all kinds of solid samples. A Hydrofluoric acid
> digestion in more complicated, but more geologically correct, as it
> gets EVERY element in solution. I will do the HF digestion later to
> compare results. Should be quite interesting. Here's what I got:
>
> Element Soil (mg/kg) Litter (mg/kg) Fluorite (mg/kg)
>
> Al 5700 6000 6800
> As < 8.1 11.3
> Ba 156 11.6 133
> Be 0.2 0.5 0.3
> Ca 5800 14300 530
> Cd 0.6 2.4 <
> Co 2.6 2.7 3.4
> Cr 10 30 6.2
> Cu 73 12.6 13.8
> Fe 11500 14500 9610
> K 433 2200 1700
> Mg 1000 3760 1490
> Mn 136 47.5 85.5
> Na 570 395 444
> Ni 4.1 21.1 8.0
> Pb 218 ? 9.3 5.4
> V 24.5 12.3 8.8
> Zn 248 70.5 33.5
>
>
> Jamie
I realize that my tap water will
> determine some of the substrate needs, but since all I know of my tap water
> is that it's hard as hell, about 8.2 pH from the tap,
> and match it on water changes, I will need a system of pretreating tap
> water. I was thinking of a 55 gallon drum with a peat filter to lower
> hardness, and drop the pH of the water... Any ideas on this?
Just an idea, but why not try to choose plants and fish that like hard
water and forget about all the work of having to adjust the chemistry.
>
> Fourth up is lighting...
> issues, I would think. How many bulbs should I stuff into the hanging box
> (hanging 12 inches above the tank), and how would I offset the bulbs to
> properly light the whole tank evenly and brightly? Would I go for 4 bulbs,
> or 6 bulbs? Where would I mount them in the box?
I mananged to cram 4 two bulb shop lights into the hood over my tank.
It hands about a foot over the tank. I like an open top and I plan to
add terrestrial plants around the back and sides. I did this by giving
the top a bit of a slope and angling the shop lights inside. OK, so my
cheap shop lights shut themselves off every once in a while because them
are to close together and overheating. One day Ill add a fan to cool
them down. Until them it simulates a passing cloud. You could use
better ballasts if you want.
If I wasnt so set on the regular house plants around the top of the
tank, I would not set the lights so far above the tank. Too much light
spills out from the hood into the room. Eight bulbs, or even six or
four are bright. I think it is a better look if all the hood light
comes out through the front of the tank. Your bulbs will also be more
effective the closer they are to the water. Belive it or not, from the
studies I have read, you lose more light in air than you do in your tank
water.
>
> Lastly, the filter... What options do I have?
>
Might I suggest a fluidized bed filter for the bio part. You cannot get
more bang for your buck, especially size wize. Check out this site for
some ideas.
I built a simple DIY fluidized bed. Contrary to popular belief, after
the 3.5 hour power outage, my filter did not jam up and all my fish did
not die from toxic shock due to lack of oxygen in the filter to feed the
bacteria.
John A.
Peter Aitken
(e.g., laterite) covered by intert material (e.g. gravel) so the nutrients
leach into the water as little as possible, staying put in the root zone
where they belong. You can avoid this problem with fluorite which has
nutrients but does not leach, hence does not have to be layered. I recently
set up a 55 gal planted tank and the substrate is 45 lbs fluorite mixed with
30 lbs small (2-3mm) gravel. Too early to tell how well the plants will do,
but from my reading this should work fine.
Peter G. Aitken
Matt (The Original) <mar...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:7piv4i$1ubm$1...@news.gate.net...
Brett
I can't help you with the substrate, though I have tons of web sites
bookmarked if you want them or with the stand. But I do know a lot about
filtration, lighting and large tanks and I'd be happy to share all I
know with you.
Lighting-
First, as I'm sure you understand, you're going to need LOTS of good
lighting, anywhere from 200 to 800 watts of it. Regular fluorescent
lights offer a lot of flexibility at a relatively low initial cost, but
they will take up a lot of space, put out a lot of heat,
They're not the most efficient and they will need to be replace as often
as every six months. So I will make two suggestions, the first and my
runaway favorite, Compact Fluorescent. They are much more efficient then
anything else out there, i.e. more light (lumens) per watt, they're,
well... compact and they'll last you much longer, about a year and a
half between bulb changes. The down side is they are more expensive
initially, 4 96 watt lights in a commercially available fixture will
start at $550, though you can build it yourself for less. Check out the
below links for basic info. www.ahsupply.com/36,40,or.htm or
www.reefs.org/ops/tb/55w-pc.html
Next would be VHO (Very High Output) fluorescent lighting. Use a
IceCap 660 ballast and 2 to 4 bulbs, and you can get around 400 watts of
lighting for less then $350. You'll have to replace the bulbs every 6
months though.
Both of these choices are better then hanging 8 or more regular
fluorescent bulbs over a tank and will cost you less in maintenance
Filtration-
For a Very high capacity, Very quiet, Very low maintenance, state of
the art in aquarium filtration and bulletproof in it's construction,
this is what I just setup for myself.
Mechanical-
A Flowtron 2000 $190. it is a mechanical filter that uses very fine
mesh bags, 150 and 1 micron, to clean and polish the water. It's very
well built and the bags are reusable and only $4.50 ech to replace.
Chemical-
A Torpedo Chemical Tower $84. I use it to hold carbon, up to 2.2
liters worth, though you can use it to hold just about any media you
want.
Biological-
A Lifegard fb 900 Fluidized Bed filter $90. This is a Very efficient
biological filter with a Huge capacity. No need to worry about fish
loading here. It's the second one I have in use. They're a little touchy
in their operation, but flawless in their performance.
A Iwaki MD-55RLT 1080 gph water pump $260.
Simply the best water pump I've ever owned. Though you can use any pump
you want and they'll start from about $100.
And I use two two Tidepool overflow skimmer ($65 each) as prefilters,
though their use is not at all needed.
This filter setup has the ability to handle up to 1600 gph depending
on the water pump capacity you choose and it can be used on any tank
size up to 300 gallons. It will take a little creative plumbing on your
part to put it all together, I spent maybe another $50 on plumbing and
used 1" pvc necked down to 3/4" for each appliance. No other filter(s)
offered the level of or capacity of or coolness of filtration that this
setup does. It really isn't that expensive compared to say 2 or 3 large
canister filters. They cost more to maintain and they still wouldn't
have the Bio capacity or water polishing capability that this does. This
is a no regret system with the ability to be flexible for any future use
or modifications.
For an inexpensive and easy test kit that will do all the you want get
the Aquarium Pharmaceutical's freshwater maser test kit.
Everything here I got and you can get from the Pet Warehouse
www.petwhse.com
Feel free to Email me with any questions or comments.
Brett Stone
Goodyear, Arizona
Discu...@webtv.net
"I love Discus.... They taste just like chicken."
"There is no problem in life to big that throwing more money at it
won't solve."
Patrick Timlin
comfortable offering advice there. Don't know much about substrate and
such. And I will also add a quick comment on the filtering. Read on...
"Matt (The Original)" <mar...@gate.net> wrote:
> I am going to be purchasing a new 200 gallon bare tank soon,[snip]
> [L]ighting... Since metal halide bulbs and such are so expensive,
> I was going to go with fluorescent bulbs, mounted in a box
> suspended over the aquarium. The problem is that I need LOTS of
> light to penetrate to the bottom of this tank, as I intend to
> support many plants, some of which, without a doubt, will have
> high light requirements.
Ok first off, as you mentioned, you are going to want lots of light
especially if you plan on a heavy planting. Therefore 200W of high
effeciency lighting (e.g. fluorescent or metal halide) would be a bare
minimum, with something closer to 400W or even higher being best. At
400W, this puts you at about 2W per gallon, which might be fine on a
large 200 gallon tank, but then again, you might find a little more is
better.
With that said, if you were thinking of fluorescent lamps, standard
straight tube four-foot lamps are only 40W each. To get to 400W total
lighting, you are talking about 10 lamps over your tank. That is a lot
of lamps. Even if you only pay $6 per lamp, you are still talking about
$60 for lamping the system, so metal halide lamp costs might not be all
that more expensive. $60 would probably buy you a 5500K 175W MH lamp
and a 400W MH lamp could probably be had for $100 or so.
You could go with VHO lighting, but what you gain in light output per
lamp you loose in effeciency. Meaning, while a 4 foot VHO lamp uses
110W (2.75 times as much wattage), you will not get 2.75 times as much
light output. Maybe twice as much light for nearly three times the
power.
Compact fluorescent lighting is a nice choice, however, the lamps are
still rather pricey and for the number of lamps you might need to put
it, you might be better off putting a MH system over the tank instead,
at least until CF lamp prices improve. CF are great for smaller tanks
where a lamp or two will give you great light output in a small
footprint, but on a large tank, the lamp expense is going to be up
there with MH lamps.
> With 48 inch bulbs, and a 6 foot tank, there are going to be some
> positioning issues, I would think. How many bulbs should I stuff
> into the hanging box (hanging 12 inches above the tank), and how
> would I offset the bulbs to properly light the whole tank evenly
> and brightly? Would I go for 4 bulbs, or 6 bulbs?
As mentioned above, if you are talking normal output fluorescents,
neither four nor six lamps is probably going to cut it. Maybe you could
do it with eight, but you probably want MORE. If you went with VHO
lighting, assuming roughly twice the light output per lamp over a
normal output fluorescent, then yes, four VHO lamps might be ok and six
would be better. However, as also mentioned above, four VHO lamps will
be using 440W, while only providing the equiv light output maybe of a
320W normal output fluorescent setup. None of these number take into
account ballast losses (the amount of wattage used by the ballasts)
BTW.
> Is there a single ballast that would light all the bulbs, or will I
> need two or three?
Probably the latter as most ballasts tend to run no more than 4 tubes.
You might find a 6 lamp ballast, but a four lamp ballast is much more
common. Assume at least two ballasts are needed for your setup if you
went with straight tube fluorescents.
If it was me, for a 6 foot long tank, I think I would opt for hanging
pendant metal halide fixtures. These are nice because they are easy to
mount. Basically put a hook in the ceiling, hang the light, plug in the
ballast box and throw the switch. You can also mount them so you evenly
space them over the tank.
Standard MH sizes are 175W, 250W, and 400W lamps, although other sizes
exist, these are generally the easiest and cheapest to find. If you
used 250W fixtures, you would hang two of them over the tank two feet
from either sie (and thus two feet apart from each other) and you would
get a nice 500W of light output. It would only be two fixtures which
would be easy to hang above the tank. The extra money this type of
system costs over a fluorescent system would be worth it to me, simply
for the ease of installing this system over the tank. Wiring up 6, 8,
or 10 fluorescents and mounting them all in a large box and then
suspending that over the tank, seems like a fairly big project.
The MH pendants would also offer a nice minimal look giving the tank
bright light, but without a Yankee stadium lighting tower hovering over
the tank. Also with the smaller pendants, I think you will find it
easier to get in there and do maintance on your tank. If needed, a
single MH pendant is much easier to quickly move out of the way or hook
it up higher and out of the way if needed.
I think the bottom line is this. 4 foot tube fluorescent lighting is
going to be the bulkiest, heaviest and possible hardest to impliment.
However it will be the cheapest. It also is cheapest to maintain on a
"per light basis" as changing a tube or two would be cheap. MH is going
to be the pricest, but light, and very easy to put in place. However
change one or two lamps will be pricey each time. Compact fluorescent
will fall somewhere in between in all cases (size, weight, costs, and
building difficulty).
> Lastly, the filter... Should I go with a couple canister filters,
> or one gigantic wet/dry filter?
If it was me, I would go with one or two large canisters. I would skip
the wet/dry for sure in a planted tank. While excellent bio filters,
these are notriously bad for plant tanks mainly because the heavy
aeration of the water tends to drive of CO2 which the plants need. Keep
in mind the plants themselves will offer excellent biofiltering
themselves and canisters are excellent filters as well. Also with
canisters it is easy to add more filtering by simply adding more
canister i needed. Just simply hoses go to the tank. Other filters you
often have to replace with something bigger or make more room on the
back edge of the tank to hang them on. Just some thoughts.
--
Patrick Timlin --- pti...@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4742/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Matt (The Original)
JAM wrote in message <37BD3F...@ro.com>...
>I have a 75 gal set up very similiart to what you are talking about. I
>dont have 10 years of experience with fish, but these idea worked for
>me.
Like I said, I have 10 years of experience with FISH. Not necessarily as a
SERIOUS hobby, just keeping various fish. :) I have rather limited plant
knowledge.
AAAAHHHH!!!! That was mean of you! I was reading along, and actually
getting into it, and BAM!!! There were the fancy chemistry words, mocking
me with their complexity!!! :) *Shakes head vigorously*
>I realize that my tap water will
>> determine some of the substrate needs, but since all I know of my tap
water
>> is that it's hard as hell, about 8.2 pH from the tap,
>> and match it on water changes, I will need a system of pretreating tap
>> water. I was thinking of a 55 gallon drum with a peat filter to lower
>> hardness, and drop the pH of the water... Any ideas on this?
>
>
>Just an idea, but why not try to choose plants and fish that like hard
>water and forget about all the work of having to adjust the chemistry.
God, no!!! If I did that, I'd basically be stuck with various cichlids, and
they tend to be miners, smashing scenery, harassing plants, arranging the
tank to their liking... Cichlids + plants tanks = disaster. :) Besides, I
like tetras and other similar fish too much to go with anything else.
>>
>> Fourth up is lighting...
>> issues, I would think. How many bulbs should I stuff into the hanging
box
>> (hanging 12 inches above the tank), and how would I offset the bulbs to
>> properly light the whole tank evenly and brightly? Would I go for 4
bulbs,
>> or 6 bulbs? Where would I mount them in the box?
>
>
>I mananged to cram 4 two bulb shop lights into the hood over my tank.
>It hands about a foot over the tank. I like an open top and I plan to
>add terrestrial plants around the back and sides. I did this by giving
>the top a bit of a slope and angling the shop lights inside. OK, so my
>cheap shop lights shut themselves off every once in a while because them
>are to close together and overheating. One day Ill add a fan to cool
>them down. Until them it simulates a passing cloud.
LOL!!!
>If I wasnt so set on the regular house plants around the top of the
>tank, I would not set the lights so far above the tank. Too much light
>spills out from the hood into the room. Eight bulbs, or even six or
>four are bright. I think it is a better look if all the hood light
>comes out through the front of the tank.
True enough. I might have to hang them a couple inches above, instead of a
foot. From other replies to this message, I am beginning to think I might
have to go with metal halide bulbs, or LOADS of florescents, in order to
properly light a 200 gallon tank properly... :(
Your bulbs will also be more
>effective the closer they are to the water. Belive it or not, from the
>studies I have read, you lose more light in air than you do in your tank
>water.
That's surprising. One would guess the water would be the main enemy of
light... In fact, if you look at the ocean, the light coming from the sun,
how ever many billions of miles away it is (I do realize that space offers
no resistance), decays to a tolerable amount in all that distance, and
various elevations don't seem to change it much, but as soon as it hits the
ocean, 10 feet seems to decrease it quite a bit. At about 100 feet, it gets
pretty tough to see. I think those studies are screwed up, somehow. I'm
not sure how this relates to fresh water, but I think it would be similar.
>>
>> Lastly, the filter... What options do I have?
>>
>
>Might I suggest a fluidized bed filter for the bio part. You cannot get
>more bang for your buck, especially size wize. Check out this site for
>some ideas.
>
>http://www.bioconlabs.com/
>
>
>I built a simple DIY fluidized bed. Contrary to popular belief, after
>the 3.5 hour power outage, my filter did not jam up and all my fish did
>not die from toxic shock due to lack of oxygen in the filter to feed the
>bacteria.
>
>John A.
Hmm, thats something to think about... But dont you need a pump to run a
fluidized bed? And a good prefilter? I'll look into this...
Thanks for the reply!!! :)
Matt
Matt (The Original)
Peter Aitken wrote in message <7pjl8l$e3s$1...@news.duke.edu>...
>The main reason for layering substrate is to have the nutrient rich
material
>(e.g., laterite) covered by intert material (e.g. gravel) so the nutrients
>leach into the water as little as possible, staying put in the root zone
>where they belong. You can avoid this problem with fluorite which has
>nutrients but does not leach, hence does not have to be layered. I recently
>set up a 55 gal planted tank and the substrate is 45 lbs fluorite mixed
with
>30 lbs small (2-3mm) gravel. Too early to tell how well the plants will do,
>but from my reading this should work fine.
Thanks for the reply!!! Good and simple, the way I like it. :)
Matt
Matt (The Original)
Patrick Timlin wrote in message <7pjua1$vbg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I will just mainly tackle the lighting question as I am most
>comfortable offering advice there. Don't know much about substrate and
>such. And I will also add a quick comment on the filtering. Read on...
>
>"Matt (The Original)" <mar...@gate.net> wrote:
>> I am going to be purchasing a new 200 gallon bare tank soon,[snip]
>
>> [L]ighting... Since metal halide bulbs and such are so expensive,
>> I was going to go with fluorescent bulbs, mounted in a box
>> suspended over the aquarium. The problem is that I need LOTS of
>> light to penetrate to the bottom of this tank, as I intend to
>> support many plants, some of which, without a doubt, will have
>> high light requirements.
>
>Ok first off, as you mentioned, you are going to want lots of light
>especially if you plan on a heavy planting. Therefore 200W of high
>effeciency lighting (e.g. fluorescent or metal halide) would be a bare
>minimum, with something closer to 400W or even higher being best. At
>400W, this puts you at about 2W per gallon, which might be fine on a
>large 200 gallon tank, but then again, you might find a little more is
>better.
>
>With that said, if you were thinking of fluorescent lamps, standard
>straight tube four-foot lamps are only 40W each. To get to 400W total
>lighting, you are talking about 10 lamps over your tank. That is a lot
>of lamps.
Well, it appears I have grossly underestimated my lighting needs. :) I
don't subscribe to the watts per gallon rule, as it is too much a blanket
statement. It takes more watts to light a taller tank, as opposed to a
shallow one, despite the gallon capacity. I can see I definitely have a
lighting challenge ahead of me, as a 200 gallon tank is near 30 inches tall,
I believe... I'm going to need serious firepower to go down that far. :)
>Even if you only pay $6 per lamp, you are still talking about
>$60 for lamping the system, so metal halide lamp costs might not be all
>that more expensive. $60 would probably buy you a 5500K 175W MH lamp
>and a 400W MH lamp could probably be had for $100 or so.
<snip>
>If it was me, for a 6 foot long tank, I think I would opt for hanging
>pendant metal halide fixtures. These are nice because they are easy to
>mount. Basically put a hook in the ceiling, hang the light, plug in the
>ballast box and throw the switch. You can also mount them so you evenly
>space them over the tank.
>
>Standard MH sizes are 175W, 250W, and 400W lamps, although other sizes
>exist, these are generally the easiest and cheapest to find. If you
>used 250W fixtures, you would hang two of them over the tank two feet
>from either sie (and thus two feet apart from each other) and you would
>get a nice 500W of light output. It would only be two fixtures which
>would be easy to hang above the tank. The extra money this type of
>system costs over a fluorescent system would be worth it to me, simply
>for the ease of installing this system over the tank. Wiring up 6, 8,
>or 10 fluorescents and mounting them all in a large box and then
>suspending that over the tank, seems like a fairly big project.
One reason I was thinking about going with florescents was that they light
evenly, with no dull spots or dark corners, and there are soooo many
different colored bulbs, I would be guaranteed to find a set of lights that
have a pleasing lighting effect on the tank. With metal halide bulbs, I
don't have any room to play with. It's a one shot deal. If I don't like
the color of the light, if it's too harsh, too yellow, or what have you, I'm
stuck with it. My wallet cringes at the thought of MH lights as it is,
without worrying about esthetics... :( Do metal halides give a good full
spectrum light? Are they a "tinny" light? Would my plants get everything
they need from them? So many questions!!!
>The MH pendants would also offer a nice minimal look giving the tank
>bright light, but without a Yankee stadium lighting tower hovering over
>the tank. Also with the smaller pendants, I think you will find it
>easier to get in there and do maintance on your tank. If needed, a
>single MH pendant is much easier to quickly move out of the way or hook
>it up higher and out of the way if needed.
This is true, and is something to think about, but without resolving the
above problems, the convenience isn't worth it to me. :)
>I think the bottom line is this. 4 foot tube fluorescent lighting is
>going to be the bulkiest, heaviest and possible hardest to impliment.
>However it will be the cheapest. It also is cheapest to maintain on a
>"per light basis" as changing a tube or two would be cheap. MH is going
>to be the pricest, but light, and very easy to put in place. However
>change one or two lamps will be pricey each time. Compact fluorescent
>will fall somewhere in between in all cases (size, weight, costs, and
>building difficulty).
>
>
>> Lastly, the filter... Should I go with a couple canister filters,
>> or one gigantic wet/dry filter?
>
>If it was me, I would go with one or two large canisters. I would skip
>the wet/dry for sure in a planted tank. While excellent bio filters,
>these are notriously bad for plant tanks mainly because the heavy
>aeration of the water tends to drive of CO2 which the plants need. Keep
>in mind the plants themselves will offer excellent biofiltering
>themselves and canisters are excellent filters as well. Also with
>canisters it is easy to add more filtering by simply adding more
>canister i needed. Just simply hoses go to the tank. Other filters you
>often have to replace with something bigger or make more room on the
>back edge of the tank to hang them on. Just some thoughts.
Good idea... The only thing is that canister filters are a bitch to clean,
and they are noisy for a while after you clean them, judging from my Magnum
350. I hate that you have to rip it apart to clean it... You disturb all
the bacteria in the filter that way. I remember back when I was a
dishwasher at a restaurant, they had these screens that the drains went
through, that were ingenious. They were soo simple. They caught all the
big stuff, like a rough mechanical filter. To clean it, you pulled out the
screen, dumped it in the trash, and put it back in. WHY can't aquarium
filters take a hint and implement something like this?!?! I hate cleaning
time with my Magnum. Well, enough bitching. :)
Thank you for your input and thoughts, and if you have any more, I'd love to
hear them! :)
Matt
Matt (The Original)
Brett wrote in message <13770-37...@newsd-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> Hi Matt,
>
> I can't help you with the substrate, though I have tons of web sites
>bookmarked if you want them or with the stand. But I do know a lot about
>filtration, lighting and large tanks and I'd be happy to share all I
>know with you.
Throw those sites at me! :) Stand designs and substrate recommendations are
always welcome.
>Lighting-
> First, as I'm sure you understand, you're going to need LOTS of good
>lighting, anywhere from 200 to 800 watts of it. Regular fluorescent
>lights offer a lot of flexibility at a relatively low initial cost, but
>they will take up a lot of space, put out a lot of heat,
>They're not the most efficient and they will need to be replace as often
>as every six months. So I will make two suggestions, the first and my
>runaway favorite, Compact Fluorescent. They are much more efficient then
>anything else out there, i.e. more light (lumens) per watt, they're,
>well... compact and they'll last you much longer, about a year and a
>half between bulb changes. The down side is they are more expensive
>initially, 4 96 watt lights in a commercially available fixture will
>start at $550, though you can build it yourself for less. Check out the
>below links for basic info. www.ahsupply.com/36,40,or.htm or
>www.reefs.org/ops/tb/55w-pc.html
Well, from what I see, I think they are pretty nifty, but there are some
things I don't understand about lighting. I understand how there are all
these spectrums of light, and all of them are needed in some varying amount
by plants. What I DON'T understand is how there are loads of bulbs
commercially available that have their light signature graphed out, and
claim to be for one specific application, such as reef tanks, or freshwater
plant tanks, and then there are "regular aquarium lights". See, without any
previous plant knowledge to speak of, I would tend to trust the specific
application lighting. The compact florescents look like "regular aquarium
lights", since they don't even really mention plant growth at all. Is there
really a difference here, or am I seeing marketing schemes at work?
> Next would be VHO (Very High Output) fluorescent lighting. Use a
>IceCap 660 ballast and 2 to 4 bulbs, and you can get around 400 watts of
>lighting for less then $350. You'll have to replace the bulbs every 6
>months though.
>
> Both of these choices are better then hanging 8 or more regular
>fluorescent bulbs over a tank and will cost you less in maintenance
The VHO lights seem to be a little less "standard issue" than the CF
systems, but I need to know if this is really a factor before I decide how I
should go about my lighting issues.
Do I REALLY need to spend $674 in filters for a plant tank? I think that's
absolutely absurd, seeing as I could probably run it with 2 Magnum 350
canister filters, 200 bucks each, RETAIL, and I already have one of them.
Thats about 700 gallons per hour, about 3 and a half tank-cycles per hour.
I really don't need 1600 gph. :)
>
> For an inexpensive and easy test kit that will do all the you want get
>the Aquarium Pharmaceutical's freshwater maser test kit.
>
> Everything here I got and you can get from the Pet Warehouse
>www.petwhse.com
>
> Feel free to Email me with any questions or comments.
Thanks for replying!!! :)
>Brett Stone
Patrick Timlin
> One reason I was thinking about going with florescents was that they
> light evenly, with no dull spots or dark corners, and there are soooo
> many different colored bulbs, I would be guaranteed to find a set of
> lights that have a pleasing lighting effect on the tank.
This is very true. With many fluorescent you have lots of combinations to
try. With one or two MH lamps, you have limited choice. Also with
Fluorscents, if you had 8 lights on the tank, you could even go with 2-4
cool whites for ultracheap lighting power and then round out the other 4
with nice looking likes to balance out the colors and look.
> My wallet cringes at the thought of MH lights as it is,
> without worrying about esthetics... :( Do metal halides give a good
> full spectrum light? Are they a "tinny" light? Would my plants get
> everything they need from them? So many questions!!!
Many people run large planted tanks with just MH and seem to do just
fine. And they generally look pretty good.
Another thought with your lighting would to simply use a combination of
MH and fluorescent. Maybe use two evenly spaced 175W lamps in your hood
giving you a good 350W of lighting power, then rounding it out with some
fluorescent lights to allow you to add some different (and cheaper) lamp
colors and spectrums. For example, a 4 lamp ballast and four x 40W lamps
giving you a grand total of 510W of lighting with the MH, but still
giving you 4 fluorescent lamps to play with lamp combinations. You would
only need the single fluorescent ballast so that would certainly simplify
things. Plus you can set up the MH and fluorescent on seperate timers so
that the fluorescents are on first and last with the MH only coming on
for the middle 8-10 hours or so of the day. That way you fish won't go
from dark to Yankee Stadium top dark again suddenly.
You might also look into smaller MH lamps. They are getting a little more
easy to find. It was 175 was the lowerst affordable MH size, but now you
see more 70, 100, and 150W systems here and there.
Another thought is to use a combo of standard fluorescents in the middle
four foot section of your tank and then use a few power compacts to light
the two foot ends. A 55W CF is only about 22 inches with socket, so if
your tank was two feet from front to back, you could locate two CF on
each end, with the socket at the back and the lamp stretching towards the
front. Locate each one centered between the end of the tank and the end
of the normal fluorescents, and that would give you a nice 110W total
filling in the ends for you.
www.AHSupply.com sells som very nice kits. You can get a ballast,
reflector, 55W lamp, and all the hardware you would need and line cord
for roughly $70 shipped per 55W setup. So assume about $135 or so to get
two of these to build into your hood on each end. The nice thing about
their kits is they include very nice reflectors. It is often hard to find
a good ready to use reflector for normal fluorescent lamps (4-foot) when
you are making your own hood. Often you have to gut old shop light
fixtures to find them or bend your own out of metal flashing and painting
them white.
Brett
Matt (The Original)
Brett wrote in message
<9828-37B...@newsd-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
I'm glad Patrick has chimed in on this as his knowlage of lighting is
better then mine.
I will go on to say that even though CF (Compact Fluorescent) have
less bulb types avalible, it's not much different then MH. The reasons
for me using CF's is the uniform light coverage, long life and high
output. MH are very good and I'd reccomend them as well, but my biggest
problem with them is that they are a single point heat sorse.
Consetrating so much heat in a single spot(s) in very cramped canopies
without much ventilation is dangerious. If you are going to hang the
light over the tank then the point is mute.
As far as filtration is conserned, you stated two things that are very
importain, 1. The tank is 200 gallons. 2. You are going with a high bio
loading.
As much as I like Magnum 350's and I have 2, they won't cut it at all,
though 3 or 4 might. Suggested water flow rates are a true 5 times the
tanks capacity, hense a 1000gph.
I said that the filtration capacity could reach 1600gph if you wanted,
but it can be as low as 250gph if that's you want, it's just a matter of
water pump size. I also stated that you can set it up for less then $500
though I spent more, and didn't even mention the 40 watt UV sterilizer
or the 1500 watt Fire Plug heater.
Well, I do think there is a system that will run this tank for less than
half the cost of the tank itself. :) I am not independantly wealthy. As it
looks now, I will probably be running on the bare minimum of equipment, few
fish, and a home-brew yeast CO2 system until such time as I get my wallet
fattened up. I will continue to research in the mean time before I buy the
tank. Perhaps I might get lucky and find someone selling something like
what I need in the marketplace NG. I notice that as a whole, the aquarium
business isn't too overpriced, until you mention live plants, CO2, or an
aquarium over 100 gallons. Then the price gets stupid. :( Pardon my rant,
I'm just a little upset.
You also said you hate cleaning your 350's, well the filter system I
suggested can be back flushed for even lower maintanane The Fluidized
Bed Filter (FBF) offers biological filtering beyond anything canisters
could even dream of. Also, 350's without BioWheels offer almost no
biological filtration.
No matter how you slice it, setting up a 200 gallon tank is not going
to be cheap. And there is nothing worse then buyers regret. You don't
have to spend a fortune, but you do get what you pay for, just do it
right the first time.
You DO have to spend a fortune. Look: 200 gallon tank, bare: $700
WHOLESALE... Filter system: $500 and up... Lighting: Anywhere from a
nightmare of semicheap 10-bulb wiring madness to $700 for a good premade
setup. CO2: $300 - $500. Plants: Lets call it about $100 (to be on the
cheap side). Fish: We can be tight and scrape by on &100 - $150 Add it all
up. lets just say it comes to around $2500. That IS a fortune. And I
didn't mention the substrate, the stand, or any other bells and whistles.
I'm getting discouraged. As soon as there is any demand whatsoever for
anything, as soon as it becomes a "hobby", the price goes nuts. It's like
stereo equipment. ARGH!!! :(
I guess I'll have to accumulate the equipment slowly, over a long period
of time.
Thank you for responding, I'm just upset cause I'm not hearing what I'd
like to. :(
Matt
wayne jones
>The first thing I am going to be doing is constructing a stand for this
>tank. Given that the tank will weigh maybe 200lbs empty, and that fresh
>water weighs ~8lbs per gallon (1600lbs), and with the substrate (200lbs?),
I
>am looking at about a ton...
I will take a stab at answering the stand question. I think most people
actually overbuild tank stands because they do not really appreciate the
strength of wood. I would not use 2x4s though as even the best seasoned
lumber will move with changes in moisture content. I would use plywood in
the manner outlined in my website which is to make a box (very strong) and
decorate it as you see fit. Making a stand this way is very easy if you do
not require doors but most people would rather have an actual cabinet with
doors. Since your tank is a long one make sure the front edge of the stand
is well supported in the area of the doors.
Wayne Jones
Wayne's DIY Aquarium Setup at
http://www.mnsi.net/~waj
Brett
rude bwoy
all the material for that project should run u less than $100
Alison
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, rude bwoy wrote:
> oh - remember - most 2x4's u get at the hardware are actually 1.5x3.5
>
Why is that?
JAM
> Your bulbs will also be more
> >effective the closer they are to the water. Belive it or not, from the
> >studies I have read, you lose more light in air than you do in your tank
> >water.
>
> That's surprising. . I think those studies are screwed up, somehow.
Actually it has to do with the fact that all the light that enters the
tank stays in the tank. That is, it reflects off the sides of the tank
back into the tank. So the closer the light source is to the tank, the
more light from that sorce is captured by the tank instead of escaping
out into the room.
> >>
> >> Lastly, the filter...
But dont you need a pump to run a
> fluidized bed? And a good prefilter? I'll look into this...
I run my FB with a 160 GPH powerhead, my prefilter is a small sponge
over the intake. I stick the sponge just a little out of the water so
it acts as a sort of skimmer. It is made of 3" PVC about 3 or 4 feet
tall. This is sized similiar to commercial versions rated for a 250 gal
tank. I didnt oversize it on purpose, it was just the easiest size to
build. I also run a Magnum 350 for mechanical filtration.
John A
Mickie
Alison wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, rude bwoy wrote:
>
>> oh - remember - most 2x4's u get at the hardware are actually 1.5x3.5
>>
>
>Why is that?
2 X 4 is the pre finished size. One of those wacky, zaney lumber things.
jeremy sunshine
yea, you can only get real 2x4's if you steal them from a demolition
project, or get some 50 year old lumber. or, cut them yourself... i have.
=) oh, and as for light, put it in a glass room(solarium, i just like that
word), or by a window, at least, it could very well save you some lighting
cost, as you'll have some natural light. if it's to expensive for a 200 gal
tank, all told, you could always build a Koi pond... =)