Blood-Parrot Cichlids
Kra...@cadvision.com
Hey everybody...I just got a pair of blood parrot cichlids, they'r
really quite unique. They look half fish half parrot. Quite shy as
well.
Question is, is anyone familiar with these fish and if so any pointers
on raising them and/or breeding them.
Thanx
Sean
They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all times.
Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
Sean
On Sat, 07 Dec 1996 10:19:15 GMT, Kra...@cadvision.com spake unto
rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids:
==>Hey everybody...I just got a pair of blood parrot cichlids, they'r
==>really quite unique. They look half fish half parrot. Quite shy as
==>well.
==>
==>Question is, is anyone familiar with these fish and if so any pointers
==>on raising them and/or breeding them.
==>
==>Thanx
==>
**********************************************
* MBUNA aka Sean O'Brien
* Madison WI, USA
*
* The BEST web site around: JAWS: http://www.badgerstate.com/JAWS/index.html
*
* Remember to buy captive bred fish whenever possible.
*
*********************************************
Mike Evans
First of all these fish are a hybrid. Hopefully these will not spawn.
--
SLTG
Kra...@cadvision.com
First off Sean...I'm new to the fish scene, so had no idea they were
man created. I was told they came from S. America. I am glad to find
out the truth about them, yes its wrong to play with nature. However
it is not their doing and do not deserve to be called "repulsive".
They only thing I find "repulsive" is your comments and attitude!!
Sean
Well your entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion they are repulsive. There
are literally thousands of wonderful "natural" species of fish to choose from,
so I don't know why we humans have the need to make new "species". I know it's
not your fault that you were misinformed about them. But I think as responsible
fish keepers it's our duty to learn about the fish we want BEFORE we buy them.
This will prevent much needless suffering for the fish. We are in total control
over their lives and therefore it's our responsibility to do everything we can
to ensure their happiness.
Ok, I guess repulsive is a strong word. It's not really the fish that are
repulsive but the people who decided to breed them. BTW I think they are a
crossbreed between a pink severum and a firemouth (but I could be wrong.). I
don't think they are a viable "species", meaning that they may not be able to
produce offspring.
Sean
On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:53:40 GMT, Kra...@cadvision.com spake unto
rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids:
==>First off Sean...I'm new to the fish scene, so had no idea they were
==>man created. I was told they came from S. America. I am glad to find
==>out the truth about them, yes its wrong to play with nature. However
==>it is not their doing and do not deserve to be called "repulsive".
==>
==>They only thing I find "repulsive" is your comments and attitude!!
Anthony B. Percival
Kra...@cadvision.com wrote: : Hey everybody...I just got a pair of blood
parrot cichlids, they'r : really quite unique. They look half fish half
parrot. Quite shy as : well.
: Question is, is anyone familiar with these fish and if so any pointers
: on raising them and/or breeding them.
: Thanx
The fish are not capable or producing viable offspring, they are "man
made" and unfortunately are riddled with swimming,bloating, and breathing
problems. It's fustrating to know that the pet store told you that they
were from south america. The reason why so many hobbyist are against this
sort of thing is because when the hobby starts playing with nature like
this the originals seem sto dissapear from the hobby, If you've seen a
wild ram compared to the sickly crap sold today you would know what I
mean.
Good luck with your purchase,
Anthony
Cynthia Teague
In article <58fk83$9...@newstand.syr.edu>, abpe...@newstand.syr.edu says...
>
>The fish are not capable or producing viable offspring, they are "man
>made" and unfortunately are riddled with swimming,bloating, and breathing
>problems.
I have heard (have not seen) that these fish can actually produce viable fry.
The serious physical problems that you mention ought to ensure that few fry
live to adulthood, I hope.
Cynthia Teague
tea...@pilot.msu.edu
M. Figueiredo
mb...@itis.com (Sean ) wrote:
>They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all times.
>Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
Really? Well, hybrids are quite normal in nature. They enlarger the
species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
Aren't you being a little racist? What do you think of crossing
Causasian Humans with African Humans?
My dog is, as you called, "man made". He is a cross breed between wolf
and dog. He doesn't bard at all. Siperian Huskywolves are used for
centuries to pull sleighs. They are very very tough dogs. They face
the artic climate better than dogs, even better than wolfes. I would
call that race a success.
Ted Stalcup
> Well your entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion they are repulsive.
There
> are literally thousands of wonderful "natural" species of fish to choose from,
> so I don't know why we humans have the need to make new "species". I
know it's
> not your fault that you were misinformed about them. But I think as
responsible
> fish keepers it's our duty to learn about the fish we want BEFORE we buy them.
> This will prevent much needless suffering for the fish. We are in total
control
> over their lives and therefore it's our responsibility to do everything we can
> to ensure their happiness.
>
> Ok, I guess repulsive is a strong word. It's not really the fish that are
> repulsive but the people who decided to breed them. BTW I think they are a
> crossbreed between a pink severum and a firemouth (but I could be wrong.). I
> don't think they are a viable "species", meaning that they may not be able to
> produce offspring.
I think repulsive is quite an appropriate word for these fish, their spines
are kinked like the most extreme of ornamental goldfish, their eyes often
bulge and their gill plates often jut from their bodies at an unnatural
angle. I can't beleive that anyone considers them attractive and I can't
believe that the fish themselves are as comfortable in their daily lives as
are aquarium fish of unaltered stock. Repulsive is a word probably also
applicable to the breeders who produce such twisted caricatures and the
shops that sell them-TS
--
Revenant Technical Consulting: Hardware, software, multimedia and Networks:
working on Macs since January 84
Michael John Pauers
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, M. Figueiredo wrote:
>
> Really? Well, hybrids are quite normal in nature. They enlarger the
> species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
Hybridization does occue in nature, but it is rather rare, often
caused by dramatic circumstances (habitat destruction, loss of members of
the same species with which to breed, etc.). Also, the genome isn't
"expanded", as you say; it is CHANGED! Hybridization can actually result
in the loss of species, as exemplified by what is going on with the
species flock of Coregonines (whitefish) in Lake Michigan: there used to
be 13 distinct species of whitefish present, but, due to competition from
introduced exotics (alewives), whitefish numbers declined drastically to
the point where the drive to spawn overtook the interspecific barriers
that had helped to prevent hybridization, and it seems that the one
remaining species, the bloater chub, may actually be a genetic mosaic of
all the other species.
> Aren't you being a little racist?
What do you think of crossing > Causasian Humans with African Humans?
Humans are humans; whether you're black, white, yellow, red, or
whatever particular labels you prefer, we are all _Homo sapiens_. The
major differences between human races are cultural; there are indeed some
slight morphological differences, but we are all the same species. The
blood parrot is a cross of two distinct species that would most likely
NEVER happen in nature; interspecific differences in courtship behaviors
and timing of reproduction have evolved to prevent this sort of thing.
Hybridization as a mechanism of speciation is apparently rare, especially
among cichlids.
> My dog is, as you called, "man made". He is a cross breed between wolf
> and dog. He doesn't bard at all. Siperian Huskywolves are used for
> centuries to pull sleighs. They are very very tough dogs. They face
> the artic climate better than dogs, even better than wolfes. I would
> call that race a success.
ALL dogs are man made. They are all derived from wolves. Like
fancy goldfish, discus, and Siamese fighting fish, the varieties we see
are the result of artificial selection. These species displayed small
variations in color and body form that humans liked the looks of and
selected individuals that possessed those traits and tried to amplify
them through selective breeding. Again, these are all the same species,
and are not "hybrids" in the true sense of the word.
--Mike
M. Figueiredo
Michael John Pauers <mjpa...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> Hybridization does occue in nature, but it is rather rare, often
>caused by dramatic circumstances (habitat destruction, loss of members of
>the same species with which to breed, etc.).
"Rare" is a subjective word. It is occurring around the word all the
time without human interference and without unusual circumstances.
Normally it occurs at the border's territory of two closed related
species. It can be seen in birds, fish, mammals and even insects
(European bees versus killer bees). Sometimes it does improve the
survival changes.
> Also, the genome isn't "expanded", as you say; it is CHANGED!
I disagree. Imagine species A and B... Species A is most adapted to
mountains and Species B to plains. Some times they mix in medium high
lands. (This is true for a lot of bird species). species B, through
some mutation, now includes one new gene (let’s call it ‘E’) allowing
the eggs to have better isolation. If species are crossing, hybrids
without mountain features wouldn’t live in mountains, but second or
third generation birds including gene E and most of the other mountain
genes would live BETTER in mountains. In time most of the birds of
species A will also carry gene E. That's why so many species have the
capability of inter-crossing: to share useful genes. The opposite is
also true: Hybridism can be a problem when you are systematically
inserting unpleasant features. (A long beak in a species that now
prefers seeds). Then the nature herself creates barriers! It can be
different mating seasons, different ways of singing, different colors,
etc.
>Hybridization can actually result
>in the loss of species, as exemplified by what is going on with the
>species flock of Coregonines (whitefish) in Lake Michigan: there used to
>be 13 distinct species of whitefish present, but, due to competition from
>introduced exotics (alewives), whitefish numbers declined drastically to
>the point where the drive to spawn overtook the interspecific barriers
>that had helped to prevent hybridization, and it seems that the one
>remaining species, the bloater chub, may actually be a genetic mosaic of
>all the other species.
I consider that story very interesting. Normally when you introduce a
more adapted species in habitats already occupied by other species
then new species just extinguish the original :( but whitefish played
a last and desperate card: "To join forces". Now the "bloater chub" is
successfully surviving. Hybridism helped surviving! They may be now a
"genetic mosaic" but not any genetic mosaic: They include the genes,
of different species, that can be more effective competing against the
intruders. You can be sure that nature and selection will preserve the
genes that turn Bloater Chub good enough to survive in this now
changed environment.
> > Aren't you being a little racist?
>What do you think of crossing > Caucasian Humans with African Humans?
> Humans are humans; whether you're black, white, yellow, red, or
>whatever particular labels you prefer, we are all _Homo sapiens_. The
>major differences between human races are cultural;
I was referring to biological differences. Races. Whites and blacks.
If you say species shouldn't mix, even if they can, then what do you
think about races?
A race is still a group of individuals sharing the same group of
genes. Perhaps they shouldn't mix of all. It is against "nature".
There's a lot of people defending that.
Are you saying perhaps "I'm not racist but I'm *specist*"? It is just
a matter of degree?
>The blood parrot is a cross of two distinct species that would most likely
>NEVER happen in nature;
It did happen in nature. A human is part of nature, as a storm, a
butterfly or a castor.
Perhaps the blood parrot has a better change to survive. You know why?
Because it is pretty. Humans like it. (How many Siamese fighting fish
are there now? You can find bettas all around the world).
>Hybridization as a mechanism of speciation is apparently rare, especially
>among cichlids.
Let's turn it less rare! Let's start crossing cichilds! :) It would be
a REAL challenge. Some of them not even between themselves breed. :)
> ALL dogs are man made. They are all derived from wolves. Like
>fancy goldfish, discus, and Siamese fighting fish, the varieties we see
>are the result of artificial selection.
I wouldn't call dog (canis familiaris) man made. Most of the dog races
yes, but not the dog as species. Homo sapiens and canis familiaris
share a very successful symbioses. We evolved together.
When you say that dog derived from wolf you are so wrong as saying man
derived from gorilla. They share the same ancestors and that's all.
They are two truly different species: Canis familiaris and Canis
lopus.
Miguel
mala...@aol.com
They may seem interesting to some people and there will lots of "purists"
who will scream bloody murder about cross breeding and such. Since this is
a fairly new genetic cross most people will not have much to say as fact
only opinion.
My personal feeling is that I would never purchase one of those.
They bring to mind "Frankenstein" and though Frankenstein might be
considered a "man" by some he was a monster to most.
To me the Blood-Parrot cichlid is a monster.
If you want the real Parrot cichlid look for it. Its called Hoplarchus
psitticus. They come from Brazil and Columbia. They are an iridescent
green and get as large as 18". But they are not a beginner fish and are
very hard to breed. If you like that color of the blood-parrot cichlid
enjoy them but do not expect to get them to spawn.
Barbara Randall
Well Mike you took many of the words right out of my mouth.
fish of I'll say fish doesn't appeal to me either, primarly because
those I have seen can barely swim. Not my idea of what a fish is.
But each his own.
Many hybrids have proven usefull to man, such as in livestock
production. Of course we must continue to go back to the pure strains
and it has proven that a three way cross is about the limit. It is my
thoughts that many of the hybrids occuring in the wild are caused by
man induced habit pressure, changes or reduction. As for the
whitefish in the lakes, based on research it is currently believed the
population of even the hybrid is at critical levels and ther are
questions if any of the species will survive. Also, if they do they
will never be a numbers needed to restablish the fishing industry on
the Great Lakes. Also of note is the small mouth bass population is
suffering in Lake Erie due to the introduction of gobies into the
lake. Hopefully the research being done where I work will find a way
to reverse the trend before it's to late,
As for the dogs, I would not call most breeds hybrids, but rather
a process of selective breeding for specfic traits. Many breeds would
not survive except for the humam intervention such as C-sections and
tube feedings, A.I, etc. The wolf x dog is a hybrid that has become
popular in some areas. Unfortunately they often have hidden
tempermant problems. Physical appearence is not an indicator of how
much of the wolf type temperment was aquired. Most often these
bahavior problems do not show up until 2 to 3 years of age when wolves
normally become mature. There is a very high incident rate of severe
bites and even killing of children by this hybrid. Many communities
have banned them. Almost all of these animals have caused any
problems until the time of the first bite. NEVER, NEVER allow your
child to be with one!!! Any questions, contact me.
DSK
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:27:01 -0800, rev...@NLTC.COM (Ted Stalcup)
wrote:
There is nothing alive on this earth that is "repulsive". Everything
living is here for a reason..whatever that may be. No one is able to
create life, nor should one be able to decide what constitutes a
beautiful life or a "repulsive" life. Accidents happen in nature
whether man-aided or not, but YOU do not treat that misfortunate as a
monster!!! Would you go up to a downs syndrome child and call him or
her an accident and "repulsive". That child had no choice as to how
he or she was born and deserves to live and be treated with respect
like anyone else....including ALL animal life (yes blood-cichlids
included). People like you are very disturbing in this world, not
only to have this attitude, but to attempt to justify it is
REPULSIVE!!!!!!!
Peter Burtch
In article <58mfuf$e...@duke.telepac.pt>,
m...@mail.telepac.pt (M. Figueiredo) wrote:
>mb...@itis.com (Sean ) wrote:
>
>>They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all
times.
>>Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
>
>species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
>
>
>and dog. He doesn't bard at all. Siperian Huskywolves are used for
>centuries to pull sleighs. They are very very tough dogs. They face
>the artic climate better than dogs, even better than wolfes. I would
>call that race a success.
Sure, but your dog isn't a 'mutant' [per se] like the infamous "Blood-Parrot"
cichlid. The obvious deformities should give you a clue here. Anthony's post
may help rethink this a bit.
-Pedro
Peter Burtch
In article <32b08a77...@news.cadvision.com>,
Describing a cichlid species as "repulsive looking" is *obviously* quite
different than some idiot passing judgement on an innocent child who is faced
with something as serious as downs syndrome.
It's unfortunate that someone in a pet store actually sold you these fish-
looks can be deceiving. In the future it may be more useful to drop the
"anti-abortion" zealot attitude, judging by your tone regarding Sean's post.
You will probably tend to get much better help!
BTW, these fish are sterile so I wouldn't worry too much about breeding them.
-Pedro
esa...@wsunix.wsu.edu
Hello all,
This thread has degenerated into an argument of name calling
(atleast implied) and symantics. We can debate the benefits and detriments
of cross-breeding for all eternity. Any of you out there that know much
about cichlids are quite aware of the serious taxonomic problems of the
family. I really do not believe that it is Joe "I have a 20 gallon tank"
or a fish farmer in Singapores "right" to start muddling up something that
we have yet to totally comprehend.
Those of you out there involved in the scientific study of animals
know that there are serious ethical dilemmas, not to mention laws in many
countries, governing man made hybrids.
I will not comment on the aesthetics, or make any other subjective
judgements, about the Blood-Parrot cichlid. The Blood-Parrot does not
worry me half as much as all the crossing of Rift Lake cichlids that is
going on. We all know what the Blood-Parrot is, but how many people are
out there trying to sell Rift Lake crosses that no one will ever figure
out? This worries me! We can debate cross breeding all anyone wants, but
lets keep it in the theoretical.
-Shane
Courage is the complement of fear.
A man who is fearless cannot be courageous.
(He is also a fool)
Sean
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:44:00 GMT, Kra...@cadvision.com (DSK) spake unto
rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids:
==>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:27:01 -0800, rev...@NLTC.COM (Ted Stalcup)
==>wrote:
==>
==>There is nothing alive on this earth that is "repulsive". Everything
==>living is here for a reason..whatever that may be. No one is able to
==>create life, nor should one be able to decide what constitutes a
==>beautiful life or a "repulsive" life. Accidents happen in nature
==>whether man-aided or not, but YOU do not treat that misfortunate as a
==>monster!!! Would you go up to a downs syndrome child and call him or
==>her an accident and "repulsive". That child had no choice as to how
==>he or she was born and deserves to live and be treated with respect
==>like anyone else....including ALL animal life (yes blood-cichlids
==>included). People like you are very disturbing in this world, not
==>only to have this attitude, but to attempt to justify it is
==>REPULSIVE!!!!!!!
There is a big difference between someone with down's syndrome and a
blood/parrot cichlid. The difference is that one was created on purpose for
human pleasure. This is wrong no matter how you look at it.
Sean
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:52:52 GMT, m...@mail.telepac.pt (M. Figueiredo) spake unto
rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids:
==>mb...@itis.com (Sean ) wrote:
==>
==>>They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all times.
==>>Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
==>
==>Really? Well, hybrids are quite normal in nature. They enlarger the
==>species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
Actually hybrids are not quite normal in nature. It's pretty unusual for fish
to crossbreed in wild. And when they do most often the fry don't survive for a
variety of reasons.
==>Aren't you being a little racist? What do you think of crossing
==>Causasian Humans with African Humans?
You're analogy is way off base. CauCasions and African's are the SAME SPECIES.
To make your analogy correct the question should be what do I think of crossing
caucasions and giraffes.
==>My dog is, as you called, "man made". He is a cross breed between wolf
==>and dog. He doesn't bard at all. Siperian Huskywolves are used for
==>centuries to pull sleighs. They are very very tough dogs. They face
==>the artic climate better than dogs, even better than wolfes. I would
==>call that race a success.
And your dog may turn around a tear your throat out one day because it still has
it's wild tendencies. I don't think it will, and I hope it doesn't. But the
bottom line is that we humans have no place playing "god" with animals.
There is a huge difference between breeding qualities in a species (such as
longer fins or more vibrant color) and creating something that CANNOT survive in
the wild. And before you ask I feel the same way about things like fancy
goldfish, balloon mollies, redtail/shovelnose catfish, etc...
There are so many beautiful natural fish, why do you feel the need to get
something other?
Sean
Susan Murray
Kra...@cadvision.com (DSK) wrote:
>There is nothing alive on this earth that is "repulsive". Everything
>living is here for a reason..whatever that may be. No one is able to
>create life, nor should one be able to decide what constitutes a
>beautiful life or a "repulsive" life. Accidents happen in nature
>whether man-aided or not, but YOU do not treat that misfortunate as a
>monster!!! Would you go up to a downs syndrome child and call him or
>her an accident and "repulsive". That child had no choice as to how
>he or she was born and deserves to live and be treated with respect
>like anyone else....including ALL animal life (yes blood-cichlids
>included). People like you are very disturbing in this world, not
>only to have this attitude, but to attempt to justify it is
>REPULSIVE!!!!!!!
As the Father of two children with handicaps, I find your conclusions misguided.
If someone were to intentionally create children with downs syndrome or other
genetic defects because they liked the way it looked, I hardly think society
would be very tolerant. Yet this is what these fish breeders have done. There is
NO COMPARISON to humans with naturally occuring birth defects; your analogy is
WRONG!
Tom Murray
---
Susan Murray | email: cyt...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~cyteen/small.html
Dead Conductor's Page: http://www.netcom.com/~cyteen/conduct.html
Susan Murray
pet...@nwu.edu (Peter Burtch) wrote:
>In article <58mfuf$e...@duke.telepac.pt>,
> m...@mail.telepac.pt (M. Figueiredo) wrote:
>>mb...@itis.com (Sean ) wrote:
>>
>>>They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all
>times.
>>>Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
>>
>>Really? Well, hybrids are quite normal in nature. They enlarger the
>>species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
>>
>>Aren't you being a little racist? What do you think of crossing
>>Causasian Humans with African Humans?
>>
>>My dog is, as you called, "man made". He is a cross breed between wolf
>>and dog. He doesn't bard at all. Siperian Huskywolves are used for
>>centuries to pull sleighs. They are very very tough dogs. They face
>>the artic climate better than dogs, even better than wolfes. I would
>>call that race a success.
>Sure, but your dog isn't a 'mutant' [per se] like the infamous "Blood-Parrot"
>cichlid. The obvious deformities should give you a clue here. Anthony's post
>may help rethink this a bit.
>-Pedro
Right on. Does anyone really think this fish could survive in nature? Of course
not! Does the original poster think a severum and a red devil could ever
reproduce in nature? To compare "test tube" hybridization to racial mixing in
humans is so stupid as to be insulting to everyone.
DSK
I'On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:27:01 GMT, cyt...@ix.netcom.com (Susan
Murray) wrote:
>Kra...@cadvision.com (DSK) wrote:
>
>
>>There is nothing alive on this earth that is "repulsive". Everything
>>living is here for a reason..whatever that may be. No one is able to
>>create life, nor should one be able to decide what constitutes a
>>beautiful life or a "repulsive" life. Accidents happen in nature
>>whether man-aided or not, but YOU do not treat that misfortunate as a
>>monster!!! Would you go up to a downs syndrome child and call him or
>>her an accident and "repulsive". That child had no choice as to how
>>he or she was born and deserves to live and be treated with respect
>>like anyone else....including ALL animal life (yes blood-cichlids
>>included). People like you are very disturbing in this world, not
>>only to have this attitude, but to attempt to justify it is
>>REPULSIVE!!!!!!!
>
>As the Father of two children with handicaps, I find your conclusions misguided.
>If someone were to intentionally create children with downs syndrome or other
>genetic defects because they liked the way it looked, I hardly think society
>would be very tolerant. Yet this is what these fish breeders have done. There is
>NO COMPARISON to humans with naturally occuring birth defects; your analogy is
>WRONG!
>
>Tom Murray
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>Susan Murray | email: cyt...@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.netcom.com/~cyteen/small.html
>Dead Conductor's Page: http://www.netcom.com/~cyteen/conduct.html
>
I'm going to set the record straight once and for all, so all you
judgemental people out there will SHUT UP!!!!
First, as I've already stated, I was misinformed about these fish!!!
OK, I was told they came from South America, and that they'd be a good
fish for a community tank, that they had no special needs and were
"difficult to breed". I made a mistake, I wouldn't have bought them
had I known the truth...I DON'T AGREE WITH PLAYING WITH NATURE.
However, now that I own them, I WILL NOT DESTROY THEM. I believe very
strongly in the sanctity of life, whether human or fish. These fish
had NO CHOICE in their creation they are what they are, but deserve to
live out there life like anyother.
The reason I posted my question was innocent enough, and I thank all
the people who helped educate me on these fish. But to those who judge
me, condemn me, and send me hate mail....please leave me alone!
My cousin had downs syndrome...he's now passed away and that is why I
used that as an example. Many people in this world were cruel to him
and I'm sure found him repulsive. My point is/was he had no choice in
being born as he was and deserved to be treated with respect...along
with any other living thing. whether man created or not. You may just
think its a fish, but that is where it all begins. Attitudes are very
hard to change and very easy to grow.
Thats all...and I promise to never post another arcticle on this group
again!
No hard feelings I hope.
.
PURE BAKING SODA
M. Figueiredo (m...@mail.telepac.pt) wrote:
: > ALL dogs are man made. They are all derived from wolves. Like
: >are the result of artificial selection.
: I wouldn't call dog (canis familiaris) man made. Most of the dog races
: yes, but not the dog as species. Homo sapiens and canis familiaris
: share a very successful symbioses. We evolved together.
: When you say that dog derived from wolf you are so wrong as saying man
: derived from gorilla. They share the same ancestors and that's all.
: They are two truly different species: Canis familiaris and Canis
: lopus.
WAY off the subject of fish...
Actually, If I recall, the scientific comunity just decided that dogs and
wolves were indeed thet same species, just different subspecies.. That, or
there is a movement to. (I mean, for crying out loud, the two can
interbreed without any difficulty. A feat in which mammals are NOT
supposed to be able to do.) As far as I know, most areas of Taxonomy are
being revamped because they are so wrong.. If anyone cares, I will find
out for sure what I heard about dogs and wwolves.. LEt me know.
--
***********************************
Ser...@hawk.phantasy.com
Visualize whirled peas.
***********************************
PURE BAKING SODA
: >They are a repulsive man made cross breed that should be avoided at all times.
: >Please don't encourage this type of manipulation of animals.
: Really? Well, hybrids are quite normal in nature. They enlarger the
: species' genome and they improve the species changes of surviving.
: Aren't you being a little racist? What do you think of crossing
: Causasian Humans with African Humans?
SPECIES is not the same as RACE. As for the made made part.. I think The
point is that Blood parrots are essentially deformed because of us. (look
at their backbones and their mouths.)
Sean
Let's end this thread. The original poster has already said they don't agree
with man-made species and that they were informed that it was a viable South
American cichlid.
Dean Hougen
In article <5959hk$s...@news3.alpha.net>,
PURE BAKING SODA <ser...@hawk.phantasy.com> wrote:
>WAY off the subject of fish...
>Actually, If I recall, the scientific comunity just decided that dogs and
>wolves were indeed thet same species, just different subspecies.. That, or
>there is a movement to. (I mean, for crying out loud, the two can
>interbreed without any difficulty. A feat in which mammals are NOT
>supposed to be able to do.)
I believe that you are using an old definition of species that is not
widely accepted any longer.
>... As far as I know, most areas of Taxonomy are
>being revamped because they are so wrong..
Taxonomy, like all of science, changes as new discoveries are made.
>... If anyone cares, I will find
>out for sure what I heard about dogs and wwolves.. LEt me know.
No thanks.
Dean Hougen
--
"No one wants a baby who looks like that." - the Sex Pistols
M. Figueiredo
"Noah M. Summers" <he...@augsburg.edu> wrote:
>Today two of my Convicts paired off, after the female layed eggs both the
>male and female protected the nest for about 3 or 4 hours then they both
>ate the eggs... all of them.
Are they scared? Are there other aggressive fish around?
I believe cichlids take care of the eggs by removing unfertilized eggs
and eggs attacked by fungus... but all?
If they BOTH ate the eggs and they weren't frighten perhaps it means
the eggs had problems.
I think is not a good idea to remove the eggs from cichlids. They tend
to have conjugal fights after, but it seems you have no choice, you
have to try it next time.
If you have other tanks and you do intent to have fry then a better
way would be to remove all the other fish and leave the eggs quiet
(just make water movement near the eggs by using air). Start by
removing the parents.
Noah M. Summers
Today two of my Convicts paired off, after the female layed eggs both the
male and female protected the nest for about 3 or 4 hours then they both
the eggs and the female? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Noah
Joe Kleinert
Noah,
If this is the first time that your convicts have paired up then it can
be normal for them to eat the eggs. Heck, I have heard of breeders who
have seen the eggs eaten after the 3rd or 4 batch. Dont worry. Also,
they dont like people staring into the tank, when fish get upset they can
also be quite likely to eat their eggs. It may take a few more times.
With convicts, I lay a small clay flower pot in one side of the tank, the
female then lays the eggs in there and they develop in the flower pot.
Then when I can see tails wiggling I remove the parents, because I have
seen many parents eat the fry, even though you will hear that they make
good parents. You do though need parents in the tank when the eggs are
first layed to fan the fungus off of the eggs. You should have nothing to
worry about and soon, if everything goes like I am sure it will you will
have more convicts then you know what to do with :-)
Joe
Joe Kleinert
joe_...@grfn.org
klei...@river.it.gvsu.edu
Universal Nature Company
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Beverly Erlebacher
In article <59ab5s$t...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
Assuming the fish have a comfortable place to spawn, i.e. some privacy
and quiet and minimum stress, just let them keep trying until they get
it right. Almost any animal will pack it in if disruption makes them
'believe' that they won't be able to complete a breeding effort. Eating
the eggs or young is a mechanism of recovering something for the next
try.
Cichlid breeding and brood care behaviour are very complex and it can
take a few tries until young fish get all the steps right, especially
with species like convicts that try to breed at a young age and small
physical size. Just as they aren't fully grown physically, they aren't
fully grown as far as their instincts go. If they are still screwing
up after 3 or 4 tries, you may have "behaviourally defective" animals,
but most likely you will soon have more convicts than you know what to
do with.
Beverly Erlebacher
Toronto, Ontario Canada
FaTaL ErRoR
On 19 Dec 1996 03:01:16 GMT, "Noah M. Summers" <he...@augsburg.edu>
wrote:
>Today two of my Convicts paired off, after the female layed eggs both the
>male and female protected the nest for about 3 or 4 hours then they both
>ate the eggs... all of them. Next time should I remove the eggs, remove
>the eggs and the female? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
>Thanks in advance,
>Noah
>
I Reccomend Taking The Parents Out As Soon As You See The Eggs Hatch
Also Keep Snails In The Tank To Eat The Excess Baby Food So Your PH
Level Doesnt Change.
Jordan Newman
Jord...@juno.com
Baron Oilfield Supply Ltd.
against any fish coming near. It took a few tries though. The parents
seemed to learn with each batch and now they are model parents.
Darren