Livingstonii/Venustus curse
The Leopard Woman
healthy in my african tank, and it's difficult for me to understand
why...
I had a pair of Livingstonii when I first started a new tank as a total
newbie. They taught me the hard way about what cycling was and succumbed
to ammonia/nitrite poisoning.
About six months and a lot of reading later, I was lucky enough to find
a new pair of Stonii, large and healthy. I had, however, a ph crash and
lost them (only ones lost in the tank) to ph shock. Hard lesson on GH
and buffering.
Bought a pair of venustus about a month or so ago, and they were doing
great. The tank had been very stable at 80 degrees, 7.6ph, 0ppm ammonia,
nitrites (nitrates unknown, but I do 35% weekly water changes), and
54ppm gh, 250ppm kh for about six months, all tank residents growing
well and quickly.
One of the venustus died yesterday with no visible symptoms other than
classic stress signals - fast breathing, top of tank, lethargic. He just
plummented to the bottom and died in about 15 minutes. A post mortem
revealed no internal problems that I could tell. The other venustus
looked stressed also, and I have raised the ph from 7.6 to 8.0 over
about 24 hours. The surviving venustus seems better, but still breathes
fast. All other tankmates seem normal.
Is it really that difficult to keep these guys below 8.0ph, or is there
something else going on here? I also lost a small Moori a day or so ago,
which I thought might have been aggression problem, but now I'm not so
sure.
Any other thoughts? The tank is a bit warmer than I normally keep it due
to the summer weather, but I'm trying to keep the daily variance with 2
degrees F or so. I have a lot of circulation in tank, so I don't think
oxygen is a problem.
TIA for your feedback...
--
Meg
* * * * * * * * *
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
* * * * * * * * *
Pat Draves
Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I remember before. I really don't
think PH is the primary culprit. My livingsoni has doubled his size
in 10 months I've had him, at a PH of 7.2. I do weekly water changes of
around 15% with gravel vacumming. He's in a 30 gallon filtered by
an aquaclear 200. His tankmates are a blue johanni, socolofi, kenyi,
bumblebee, red zebra, pleco, school of big (2-3") tetras, and a
school of giant danios. I'm wondering, what kind of diet have you
typically kept them on? Also, what tankmates?
The Leopard Woman <nug...@vt.edu> writes: > For the third time, I've failed at keeping these species alive and
The Leopard Woman
>
> Meg,
> Sorry to hear about your bad luck. I remember before. I really don't
> think PH is the primary culprit. My livingsoni has doubled his size
> in 10 months I've had him, at a PH of 7.2. I do weekly water changes of
> around 15% with gravel vacumming. He's in a 30 gallon filtered by
> an aquaclear 200. His tankmates are a blue johanni, socolofi, kenyi,
> bumblebee, red zebra, pleco, school of big (2-3") tetras, and a
> school of giant danios. I'm wondering, what kind of diet have you
> typically kept them on? Also, what tankmates?
Mine is in a 55gal with a UGF powered by two hagen powerheads, plus a
whisper3 filter. The second seems to be doing better, swimming more
often at lower levels of the tank and eating. His 'roomies' in order of
dominance are:
4" OB Zebra -currently on a territorial rampage, but seems to ignore the
venustus.
4" Kennyi male -squares off with the zebra, usually a draw
3" OB peacock -bothers no one, gets chased by the OB zebra
4" crabro -poor thing could kick butt based on size, but gets chased
back and forth
between the kennyi side and the ob zebra side
3" Elongatus - low profile these days, doesn't seem to bother anybody
3" Albino Zebra -low on the territory ladder chases the jewels at times
4 1/2" Steveni - mellow, gets chased by the zebra and the kenyi
2-3" assorted jewels - get chased by the zebras but not the kennyi ?
2" C. moori - chased by the smaller fish (frustration?), but not
stressed at all
2" Hap "Blue neon" female - the smallest fish, but largely ignored
No aggression problems really until recently selling some fry off, and
now the kennyi and zebra have really claimed a half tank each. Both
allow certain fish in their "turf", but not others. I've never seen
anyone chase the venustus, though.
As for diet, they were getting hilkari gold pellets, now wardley
pellets. Some shrimp pellets as treat food. Also fresh lettuce for the
Mbuna, and small earthworms for the venustus, which they loved. Also fed
blackworms a couple of weeks ago, which they also seemed to like. No
signs of bloat or anything like that, but the other one was hiding quite
a bit near the end...maybe it was stressed by the larger fish chasing
each other even though it was only a bystander? I thought these guys
were pretty tough...
Pat Draves
and if it was an aggression problem I'm sure you'd be able to tell
by the venustus getting chased. Diet doesn't sound that much different
than what I feed my livingstoni (he gets wardley's and hikari pellets,
shrimp pellets, spirulina flakes, feeder fish, tubifex worms, bloodworms,
and an ocassional earthworm). I thought something would just stand out,
but it doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong (maybe because I
know so little compared to others). Your filtration is better than
mine. Anyone help Meg out?
CichlidFan
Long time no talk! Just a thought on your losses and maintenance . . . are
you still using the Python to ADD H20? If so I assume that the H20 being added
comes directly from your tapinto the tank with no "bucket" in between, no?
Have no idea if it has any bearing on this, as your other fish seem fine, but .
. . its possible that the if the H20 is coming directly from the tap without
your de-chlor, buffer, salt, whatever it is that you use, being added TO the
fresh H20, maybe some of the fish you're trying to keep may be a bit more
sensitive to the "flood" coming into the tank. What are you using for a
buffer? How did you raise your pH? Try to be careful with the raising -
recommended is no MORE than .2 in 24 hours. Not saying that .4 will hurt
anything, but I'm sure that you know if there's anything these critters DON'T
like is fluctuations - they can live nicely at a lower than optimal pH but
consistency is what they like best.
We're still at the "5 gallon bucket" stage ourselves, but once we can figure
out the physical logistics we plan to keep a garbage can (30 - 50 gallon size)
with H20 for adding. Not filled all the time, but to fill and let sit for 24
hours, then add our goodies, let sit again, test, adjust and add to the tanks.
You can only imagine the length of time these H20 changes take with a 90,
2-55's, a 30, two 20's, a 10 (empty thiank goodness), a 5 (empty too!) and the
90 gallon kiddie pool outside on the deck! Who needs to work out and lift
weights with all that bucket lifting <chuckle>!
Anyway - neither Mark nor I can think of anything that may be causing the probs
with the venustus and livingstonii - the only thought we had was the Python.
Hope that you don't continue with this "bad luck" - it is so disappointing when
that happens.
Melissa
Appalachian African Cichlid Club
Visit our site at http://members.aol.com/Cichlidfan/aacc.html
Candi n OK
I'm baffled as well. I keep two venustus in an overcrowded 55 and they are
really thriving. Try again Meg, maybe just bum luck?
Candi -- "Sometimes you just have to look reality in the eye.....and deny it."
The Leopard Woman
is a coincidence with this genus/species and I.
My remaining venustus seems ok today. He is at the top of the tank (all
of the livingstonii/Venustus I have done this), but is eating well. Fins
are not clamped, but he is still breathing faster than I think he
should.
I had also thought about my use of the python for changing water in
these tanks, but I have been doing so since February with no problems
(so far?) The other 1" additions had done ok for several months with
this routine. Maybe the venustus are more sensitive than my other
cichlids?
I am not changing the ph of my tap water prior to adding as it is close
to about 7.7, and I am maintaining the tank at around 7.8 using crushed
coral as a buffer. My gh is about 50-60ppm (probably a bit low, but I
have had no ph swings at all since the coral was added) and my kh is
around 250ppm.
I have been spreading the dechlorinator on the inside of the delivery
tube when adding water back in, also with low flow and positioning the
tube so that the water has to travel up and over the lip of the tube at
the end. I had read that if the water had good air contact as it was
being added (sprayed, etc) that much of the chlorine would dissapate
into the air before entering the tank. I do not have chloramine(sp?) in
my local water, thank goodness. Happily, my tap water doesn't need much
adjustment if my fish can be happy at the 7.8 ph level.
The recent raise in ph to 8.0 was achieved by adding a *small amount* of
the seabuffer additive that I used last winter with dramatic results
because of following the label instructions! I know that .4 was probably
pushing it in terms of adjustment, but everyone seems to have managed
ok.
Just did a 30% change over the weekend, and everyone seems well, but I'd
be happier if the venustus wasn't breathing so fast!
The Leopard Woman
morning - not in a hurry to get any more for now. The other fish are
doing well, so I keep monitoring levels and see what happens...
CichlidFan
Sorry about your venustus :( Always hate to hear about fatalities.
How much crushed coral is in your tank? While the crushed coral will certainly
improve buffering I wonder if the amount you have is enough to keep it where it
needs to be . . . . It really is a puzzlement as to the deaths of the
livingstoni and venustus, only.
Just a thought. Hope all your other critters are in good shape. (Saw some
cute little C. moori at the lfs the other night . . . wish we had another tank
or two - would love to have some!)
The Leopard Woman
>
How much crushed coral is in your tank? While the crushed coral will
certainly
> improve buffering I wonder if the amount you have is enough to keep it where it
> needs to be . . . . It really is a puzzlement as to the deaths of the
> livingstoni and venustus, only.
I've got about 10lbs mixed in with about 50lbs of pre-existing gravel. I
can only wonder if it was just an aggression issue - my big guys are
getting pretty big now, and more aggressive all the time. My albino
zebra has taken to hiding in the corner lately, as niether the ob zebra
or the kennyi think too much of him latel.y
>
> Just a thought. Hope all your other critters are in good shape.
They seem to be, other than the albino I'm keeping an eye on. I have one
lifalili from the auction that has almost died twice, but she's a real
trooper and keeps coming back! I'm finding these riverene africans to be
the hardiest fish in the tank.
(Saw some
> cute little C. moori at the lfs the other night . . . wish we had another tank
> or two - would love to have some!)
I sold all but a pair that I got at auction, and lost the smaller one
about a week before the venustus. I kept the largest of the batch, and
he is doing quite well - would look great with your yellow labs :)
Hope your fish are doing well...
Michael D Nielsen
interested in several species and their availability.
The fish I am interested in are:
Satanoperca jurupari (Geophagus) Earth-Eater or Demon Fish in Baensch
Vol. 1 pg 704
Gymnogeophagus australis (Geophagus australe) pg 708
Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus (Geophagus) Pearl-Striped Geophagus in Baensch
Vol. 2 pg 910
"Geophagus" crassilabris (Satanoperca) Thick-lipped eartheater in Baensch
Vol. 3 pg 766
What is the availability of these, especially the last 3. I have seen the
jurupari frequently but the others I don't remember seeing in stores.
Also how quickly would juveniles about 2" grow to about 6", given good
diet and good water quality. I would be keeping them in a 55 gal for
about 8 months, so I don't want them too crowded. They would then be
moved to a 125 gal. Thus I am not looking for super fast growth, just
good, steady, healthy, "normal" growth.
Thanks for any help.
whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomarey
h o
o Mike Nielsen u
m Department of Geography THE OPTIMIST BELIEVES WE LIVE IN ?
a Harvill Bldg Box #2 THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS; w
r Tucson, AZ 85721 THE PESSIMIST FEARS THIS IS SO h
e mnie...@u.arizona.edu o
y m
ou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whom?
Thai Ton
mnie...@U.Arizona.EDU says...
>
>I have some questions about the geophagus type fish. In particular I am
>interested in several species and their availability.
>
>The fish I am interested in are:
>
>Satanoperca jurupari (Geophagus) Earth-Eater or Demon Fish in Baensch
>Vol. 1 pg 704
>Gymnogeophagus australis (Geophagus australe) pg 708
>
>Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus (Geophagus) Pearl-Striped Geophagus in Baensch
>Vol. 2 pg 910
Brasiliensis? Sorry, no book. If it is the brasiliensis, it can be available
relatively easily though not as common as the others. VERY territorial.
Definitely needs a cave or hiding place or it won't do very well. Able
to compete with similar sized central american cichlids so can be quite
quaralsome. 125 gal will make it happy.
>
>"Geophagus" crassilabris (Satanoperca) Thick-lipped eartheater in Baensch
>Vol. 3 pg 766
>
>What is the availability of these, especially the last 3. I have seen the
>jurupari frequently but the others I don't remember seeing in stores.
>
>Also how quickly would juveniles about 2" grow to about 6", given good
>diet and good water quality. I would be keeping them in a 55 gal for
>about 8 months, so I don't want them too crowded. They would then be
>moved to a 125 gal. Thus I am not looking for super fast growth, just
>good, steady, healthy, "normal" growth.
>
>Thanks for any help.
>
>
>whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomarey
>h o
>o Mike Nielsen u
>m Department of Geography THE OPTIMIST BELIEVES WE LIVE IN ?
>a Harvill Bldg Box #2 THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS; w
>r Tucson, AZ 85721 THE PESSIMIST FEARS THIS IS SO h
>e mnie...@u.arizona.edu o
>y m
>ou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whomareyou?whom?
>
>
--
* Do not send advertising material to this address. I don't have any money. *
Dean Hougen
Michael D Nielsen <mnie...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>I have some questions about the geophagus type fish. In particular I am
>interested in several species and their availability.
>
>The fish I am interested in are:
>
>Satanoperca jurupari (Geophagus) Earth-Eater or Demon Fish in Baensch
>Vol. 1 pg 704
There are several species being sold as "Jurupari" in the hobby, probably
including the true S. jurupari, S. leucosticta, and some undescribed
species. See Pat Chefalo's excellent pages on Satanoperca (his "Jurupari"
Project) at http://members.aol.com/pmchefalo/JURUPROJ.htm.
As you've noticed, these are generally available at local pet stores. They
are almost always wild caught. This is because they are not easily spawned
in captivity and grow too slowly for commercial raising in Florida. They
are often very crowded in their shipping bags and may have fins and gills
badly "burnt" by ammonia when they come in. You may also need to worry
about treating them for parasites. The fact that they are found frequently
in the hobby despite these facts is a tribute to their relative hardiness
(compared to, say, S. daemon).
>Gymnogeophagus australis (Geophagus australe) pg 708
The fish pictured by Baensch under this name in vol. 1, is NOT Gg.
australis nor even a member of the Gg. gymnogenys complex (which includes
Gg. australis, Gg. gymnogenys, Gg. lacustris, and Gg. labiatus).
Unfortunately my books are all packed away due to a recent move and I can't
remember off-hand which species Baensch pictures but I can tell you that it
IS a member of the Gg. rhabdotus complex. The true Gg. australis is an
elongate species, as are all members of the gymnogenys complex.
This confusion has been widespread in the hobby on both sides of the
Atlantic. See, for example, Loiselle's 1981 FAMA article on Gg. rhabdotus
where he wrongly identifies his fish as Gg. australis. (Reprinted at
http://cichlidae.com/articles/a040.html.)
>Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus (Geophagus) Pearl-Striped Geophagus in Baensch
>Vol. 2 pg 910
I don't have Baensch 2, so I'll assume that the fish pictured really is a
member of the Gg. rhabdotus complex, although I'd guess the chance of it
really being that particular species (rather than, say, Gg. meridionalis,
Gg. setequedas, or an undescribed species) is probably no better than
50/50. Another confusion that often exists in the hobby is between members
of the Gg. rhabdotus complex and "brasiliensoids." (Brasiliensoids are
'Geophagus' brasiliensis and its close relatives, whose taxonomy needs
desperately to be reviewed.)
You are very unlikely to find the true Gg. australis in the hobby, although
I know people have recently been able to acquire some other members of the
gymnogenys complex. You are more likely to find members of the rhabdotus
complex around, although there is a very good chance fish sold as Gg.
rhabdotus will really be brasiliensoids. Good places to try to get any of
these Gymnogeophagus would be "Uncle Ned" (of Uncle Ned's Fish Factory,
appropriately enough) and Jim Carmark of Ocean's Unlimited. Both are
located south of Boston in Massachusetts, I believe. Expect to pay good
money for good fish. Another good option would be Yamandu Plonskonka who
is located in Minas, Uruguay. He doesn't want much for each fish but the
shipping won't be cheap. I can provide phone numbers and/or email if you
are interested.
>"Geophagus" crassilabris (Satanoperca) Thick-lipped eartheater in Baensch
>Vol. 3 pg 766
This fish is very hard to find. Again, confusion abounds on ID, so most
people/places you find claiming to sell these fish are really selling
'Geophagus' steindachneri, a much more commonly found fish (which I believe
is in Baensch 1). Both of these fish are also confused with 'Geophagus'
pellegrini, which is also very rare in the hobby. I'm afraid I don't have
a good source for you on this one.
>
>What is the availability of these, especially the last 3. I have seen the
>jurupari frequently but the others I don't remember seeing in stores.
>
>Also how quickly would juveniles about 2" grow to about 6", given good
>diet and good water quality. I would be keeping them in a 55 gal for
>about 8 months, so I don't want them too crowded. They would then be
>moved to a 125 gal. Thus I am not looking for super fast growth, just
>good, steady, healthy, "normal" growth.
Satanoperca species are normally quite slow growers. It might well take a
"Jurupari" a year to reach 6". The other species grow at a more
accelerated pace, more akin to that of other medium-sized new world
cichlids. However, I would say that a half-dozen 2" fish of any of these
species would be fine in a 55 gallon tank for the next 8 months. For one
thing, the rhabdotus complex Gymnogeophagus don't grow nearly so large and
will probably top out at less than 6". (However, if the "rhabdotus" you
get actually turn out to be brasiliensoids, they may get much larger.)
If you decide to go with more than one species of geophagine, you might
want to know that the Satanoperca will appreciate warmer temperatures
(around 82 degrees Fahrenheit) than the Gymnogeophagus (which would do
better around 76). The 'G.' crassilabris would fall somewhere in between.
Hope it helps and let me know if you have any other questions about these
fish.
Dean Hougen
South American Cichlid Study Group
http://petsforum.com/sacsg
--
"Hope you guess my name,
But what's confusing you is the nature of my game."
- the Rolling Stones
Wayne Mews
about a year ago. The fry are about 3" long after a year of growth. The
secret for keeping these fish at my place are as follows. Temp 84 deg F +
Ph 65. 7.5 and a basic vegetable diet has been successful.
Wayne Mews
Dean Hougen
Wayne Mews <me...@dlcwest.com> wrote:
>The geophagus species are incredibly beautiful fish. I spawned S. leucostica
>about a year ago. The fry are about 3" long after a year of growth. The
>secret for keeping these fish at my place are as follows. Temp 84 deg F +
>Ph 65. 7.5 and a basic vegetable diet has been successful.
>
>Wayne Mews
Wayne,
Very interesting. The warm temperature is fairly standard practice for
breeding most Satanoperca and a neutral pH is not uncommon (although lower
pH values are frequently used as well) but the "basic vegetable diet" is
something I've not seen people use with these fish before. Could you
elaborate on what you were feeding the adults before spawning and the fry
since?
For contrast, when I spawned S. cf. leucosticta* a few years back, I fed
mine a heavily animal-based diet, rather than a plant-based one. Staples
included Doro-Min and Hikari Cichlid Pellets with heavy feedings of frozen
blood-worms and live glass-worms to bring them into spawning condition.
Other foods fed in smaller amounts included Doro-Green (so there was a
little more plant matter there) and frozen brine shrimp. The fry were fed
artemia nauplii, then frozen brine shrimp, standard tropical flakes, shrimp
pellets, and frozen blood worms as they got older.
In fact, when I've put vegetable foods in many of my tanks (e.g. peas,
green beans, spirulina wafers, leaf lettuce, for Uaru, Heros, etc.) most
of my sifters including various Satanoperca species have taken very little
interest in them. Honorary sifters like Guianacara have been moderately
more interested.
*It was as spot-faced Satanoperca but with no locality information I am
hesitant to claim it was the real S. leucosticta.
Dean Hougen
South American Cichlid Study Group
http://petsforum.com/sacsg
--
"If bread is the staff of life, should there be famine, war, or strife?"
- Bunny Wailer