Negotiating Prices
GJ9343
(SEllis8859) writes:
>I'm new to antique collecting and would appreciate hearing from anyone
>regarding the etiquette of negotiating prices. How accepted is
>negotiating? Does it depend on whether I'm buying from an "upscale"
shop,
>a mall or a modest collectibles store? Do sellers expect me to
negotiate;
>will they think that they've got a "live one" if I don't, or will I be
>regarded as "not serious"? Does the etiquette differ in the U.S. and the
>U.K. (I travel to London quite a bit and have been browsing the shops as
>often as possible)? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I would say that dealers expect you to negotiate on prices of items in
shops - regardless of whether it's upscale or not. It's been my
experience that this is true in the UK as well. Most of us price items
expecting to come down a bit. My exception to this is when I call a
customer to offer them a piece that I know they want - I'll quote the
price I expect them to pay to save us both time.
How you go about negotiating the final price is a matter of personal style
adn that's where the etiquette comes in. My particular pet peeve is
people who ask for a *dealer's* or *trade* discount who aren't dealers. I
most likely would have given them the same price anyway but the
misrepresentation always makes me want to add a bit back on.
A couple of (probably obvious) tips:
You're likely to get a better discount as a repeat customer or when
negotiating for several pieces at once.
The more time the seller invests in making the sale (telling you about the
item, looking up information, conversation, etc) the more likely you'll
get a discount to close the sale (or just to get rid of you) - that's the
same when buying a car or anything else.
One final thought. I don't negotiate on price when I'm buying small
items. If I'm at a flea market and see an item that I can sell for $50 or
$100 marked $5 I'll take it without additional conversation.
greg
Nancy M. Hale
selli...@aol.com (SEllis8859) wrote:
>I'm new to antique collecting and would appreciate hearing from anyone
>regarding the etiquette of negotiating prices. How accepted is
>negotiating? Does it depend on whether I'm buying from an "upscale" shop,
>a mall or a modest collectibles store? Do sellers expect me to negotiate;
>will they think that they've got a "live one" if I don't, or will I be
>regarded as "not serious"? Does the etiquette differ in the U.S. and the
>U.K. (I travel to London quite a bit and have been browsing the shops as
>often as possible)? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Hi, Sellis.
I deal in upstate (I.e. Northern - way North of Westchester County -) NY.
Shops here generally expect price asked on the item unless you're a dealer.
There is a sort of unwritten understanding that dealers get a 10% discount.
Ususally however it doesn't hurt to ask. If you are talking with the owner
of the item(s), it is easier to negotiate - depending on the owner. If you
are in a "group shop" (where several dealers rent booths from the shop owner),
it is more difficult to negotiate because the shop keeper has no idea of what
was paid for the item and therefore if there is any "room" in the price.
It's always best to try the side door (or back door) with a query such as "Do
you know if there is any room on this price." Some people can be downright
rude. An "I'll give you so much for this item." is an invitation out the
door.
I'm always open to negotiation. But there are some people who want the last
penny out of any sale. Just like in any other field of endeavor.
Nancy in Constable
Nancy M. Hale
Constable, NY
n8rw...@slic.com
Rob Hoffman
stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
is to raise the price!
SEllis8859
THE ANTQR
mark the price we expect to get on our items. . . and we can decide if we
want to discount to dealers or not--10%. This is supposedly an innovative
approach. It has only been in effect for a couple years. Sure are less
hassles though -- for both the dealer -- and the shop owner.
Virginia Lyons
specialize in or have to offer, and 2) to actually purchase something
that I have specifically decided that I want to buy within a certain
range of dollars.
In the latter case, if I find something that meets the criteria of
what I am looking for, I always ask, "What's Your Best Price" on the
article? I ** ALWAYS ** hear the dealer come down 10%. At which point,
I usually accept that offer and close the deal. I will sometimes, but
rarely, haggle for a little lower price just to see what happens. But
time is money, and my time is precious to me.
Regards,
Virginia Lyons
vly...@best.com
Matthew Coon
Seriously, can someone please explain why condition shouldn't be an allowable
criterion for price discussions? It seems like a fundamental to me.
Is it widely considered tabu for some reason?
m@t
--
Have you ever paid your taxes - at a Coke machine? You will...
Linda Zinn
In a previous article, rhof...@basic.net (Rob Hoffman) says:
>Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip... Dealers arent so
>stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
>sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
>wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
>is to raise the price!
Sorry Rob, but I disagree. I've encountered more dealers than
I care to remember who have thought a book with its covers
almost falling off is a prize rarity because it was published
before 1900. That's just one of many, many examples. With
so many people dealing in general antiques, it's not uncommon
for a buyer to know more than the dealer about an item for sale.
I certainly will point out flaws during a negotiation process,
but I attempt to do so in a diplomatic way.
So I guess if I see you at a show, you'll be the one who
attempts to up the ante if I point out that hairline
on the underside of a plate I'm looking at. You'll
know me, too. I'll be the one who sets it down, smiles,
and walks away shaking her head. :)
Linda Zinn
ge...@wkar.msu.edu
>From: co...@omni.cc.purdue.edu (Matthew Coon)
>Subject: Re: Negotiating Prices
>Date: 21 Mar 1996 07:29:23 GMT
>In article <4iq1ft$6...@www.basic.net>, Rob Hoffman <rhof...@basic.net> wrote:
>>Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip... Dealers arent so
>>stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
>>sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
>>wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
>>is to raise the price!
>>
>Hmm, I bet that strategy isn't too good for sales...
>Seriously, can someone please explain why condition shouldn't be an allowable
>criterion for price discussions? It seems like a fundamental to me.
>Is it widely considered tabu for some reason?
>m@t
I don't think it is taboo so much as a dealer has already priced the piece
taking into consideration its condition. There are exceptions, of course,
where someone will price a flawed item the same as a mint one.
I've sold a few pieces at shows where the person pointed out a defect I had
not mentioned on the price tag (on the tag, I list specific flaws). If it is
legitimate, I'll knock off another 10% or take their offer. If, IMO, it is
apparent that they are just trying to beat the price down, I tell them the
piece has historical evidence of unique character and I should mark it
up :-)
Gene Purdum
Williamston, MI
Fine European porcelain at http://www.tias.com/purdum
Creek Chub Nut
> Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip... Dealers arent so
> stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
> sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
> wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
> is to raise the price!
>
If an item has a defect it probably isn't worth bargaining
over...however, to fill a "hole" in a collection temporarily a buyer
might want the item but may realize that he/she will not be able to get
rid of it once an upgrade is found. I think that defects are certainly a
valid reason to negotiate.
I think that this post illustrates the sometimes adversarial, if not
combative, relationship between dealers and collectors. My advice is, go
ahead and bargain for any reason you like...just don't be unpleasant
about it and if the dealer can't handle you asking for a lower price, go
elsewhere. This is especially true for specialty items, which the
collector/buyer probably knows more about than the dealer. If some
dealers I know would listen to the collectors that come into their shops
and bargain (sometimes pointing out defects) they would move items more
quickly and probably make more money.
JT (a collector :-) )
*************************************************************************
* *
* J. T. Vogt >>>Insert Disclaimer<<< jv...@ag.auburn.edu *
* *
* ENTOMOLOGIST ANTIQUE TACKLE COLLECTOR ALL-AROUND NUT *
* ___________________________ *
* _____/ O \ *
* ___/___ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ \ *
* O-| \ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /| *
* ____| \________________________________/ | *
* | | *
* | | *
* | \_/ \_/ *
* \_/ \_/ *
*************************************************************************
L. Merinoff
> I would say that dealers expect you to negotiate on prices of items in
> shops - regardless of whether it's upscale or not. It's been my
> experience that this is true in the UK as well. Most of us price items
> expecting to come down a bit.
I'm still a bit confused about how much of a discount is realistic.
I've recently started asking if dealers can do better on a price, and
each has immediately offered a 10% discount whether the item(s) comes
to $20 or $500. My question is if that's the real price they expect
or if that's the beginning of the negotiation.
Linda
hv...@shrewsbury.org
rta...@pica.army.mil
(Matthew Coon) wrote:
> In article <4iq1ft$6...@www.basic.net>, Rob Hoffman <rhof...@basic.net> wrote:
> >Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip... Dealers arent so
> >stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
> >sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
> >wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
> >is to raise the price!
> >
> Hmm, I bet that strategy isn't too good for sales...
>
> Seriously, can someone please explain why condition shouldn't be an allowable
> criterion for price discussions? It seems like a fundamental to me.
> Is it widely considered tabu for some reason?
>
Well, for one thing, if the dealer is, in fact, consciencious and is aware
of a defect, he already has made allowance for that in the price. We often
run into "those people" who say: "Take 20 more $ off because it has a
hairline ..." or: " the color's faded" or: "Aha! there's been a repair on
the back ..." THAT's EXACTLY WHAT THE TAG SAYS .... "HAIRLINE ... AS IS";
"COLORS NOT STRONG"; "MINOR REPAIR TO BACK" ... ok, so you CAN read ... and
that's exactly why the spongeware pitcher is $45 and not $145 ... the quilt
is $75 and not $375 and the cupboard is $475 and not $1475. When someone
starts badmouthing an item and demands more off than I've already come
down, they can just go elsewhere, because they certainly aren't going to
get any breaks from us. If it is that bad, you don't want it. ... This
used to be a scam on the part of unethical buyers at some of the lower
class shows and flea markets. ... If there was something that they wanted
and you didn't accept their rediculous low-ball offer, they would simply
start badmouthing everything in your booth, and you as a dealer, as well,
and creating a scene until everyone else fled leaving only you and them ...
NOW what about that offer .... Also the person that offers half of what's
marked on a piece because: "all you dealers mark your stuff up at least
double."
Of course, if the piece is marked as "PERFECT" and priced accordingly but
has been cleverly worked over to hide the defect, you might simply mention
it to the dealer as you walk away, because you DON'T want to deal with
someone who is being that fraudulant with their merchandise.
--- RBT ---
>
cyn...@email.lommen.com
Rob Hoffman <rhof...@basic.net> wrote:
>Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip... Dealers arent so
>stupid that they can't figure out whats wrong with their junk --and they
>sure don't need the customer pointing it out. If someone mentions whats
>wrong with an item as a means of negotiating a lower price--my response
>is to raise the price!
>
I disagree with this entirely and find it a vindictive response to a buyer
who obviously knows their stuff. If there is a defect in the item and I
know it and they know it too, it is certainly a bona fide means by which to
negotiate a lower price. Unless the items is *already* marked down because
of the defect, a smart shopper will spot the flaw and negotiate around
it. After all, if the piece is not PERFECT, you and I both know it should
not command book value price. Your response might be, "Yes, I am aware of
the defect and the item is priced accordingly." To RAISE the price in
response only serves to reinforce the bad name dealers already have with
some collectors.
My .02 for what it is worth
WITH a hairline crack...
Cynthia
"May December Antiques"
Yank Azman
(Linda Zinn) wrote:
€€>In a previous article, rhof...@basic.net (Rob Hoffman) says:
€€>
€€>>Just don't mention defects as a bargaining chip.
>>>snip
-my response is to raise the price!
€€>
€€>Sorry Rob, but I disagree.
>>>snip
I guess if I see you at a show, you'll be the one who
€€>attempts to up the ante if I point out that hairline
€€>on the underside of a plate I'm looking at.
snip
I usually know the faults of my stock. In fact I try to point them before
the customer does. However as a bargaining chip I respond really well to
the old "I love it in spite of its flaws" routine.
I even respond well to "I can't afford what you're asking, do you have any
room on the price?"
Just don't reach into your Vuitton bag and pull a Mont Blanc to sign your
gold card slip with.
The other thing I don't respond well to is an offer stated in the "I'll
give you" format as opposed to "will you take?". As one of my neighbours
who has been at this for fifty years told someone: when you pay my rent,
you can set my prices.
--
Yank Azman
"You have been in Afghanistan, I perceive."
Matthew Coon
<rta...@pica.army.mil> wrote:
>In article <4ir0gj$n...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, co...@omni.cc.purdue.edu
>(Matthew Coon) wrote:
>
>> In article <4iq1ft$6...@www.basic.net>, Rob Hoffman <rhof...@basic.net> wrote:
>> >--my response is to raise the price!
>> >
>>
>> [Why....?]
>>
>Well, for one thing, if the dealer is, in fact, consciencious and is aware
>of a defect, he already has made allowance for that in the price.
Of course if all dealers were that conscientious, the world would probably
be a better place. I can certainly understand that if a dealer has properly
assessed the condition of a piece and adjusted the value accordingly, it
would be annoying to get a customer who still tried to use condition to
beat the price down even more, especially if the dealer has made the
condition and its effect on the price known to that customer
(either listing it on the tag or marking it "AS IS" or something along
those lines).
These "if"s weren't part of the story when I asked at first, however .
I am glad to hear that some dealers at least are open to reasonable
negotiation if it is done tactfully and it relates to valid issues
that the dealer may not have taken into account at first.
What should one do about a dealer who is *not* conscientious enough?
I usually just walk away when I see something overpriced or misrepresented
(e.g. marked as 1950's or earlier when it clearly has a ZIP code on it...).
I assume that the dealer is either trying to cheat someone or is either not
knowledgeable or competent enough to get it right, and either way won't be
happy to be informed of the problem.
It still seems like a lose-lose situation tho...
Connie Zeigler
>regarding the etiquette of negotiating prices. How accepted is
>negotiating? Does it depend on whether I'm buying from an "upscale" shop,
>a mall or a modest collectibles store? Do sellers expect me to negotiate;
>will they think that they've got a "live one" if I don't, or will I be
>regarded as "not serious"?
I am a dealer and a collector and this is how I handle negotiating prices. If
the item I want to buy is priced appropriately and is under $50 I pay the
asking price. If it's above $50 I ask if they discount. If they want me to
make an offer I suggest a price that is between 15-18%off. I never ask for
20% or more off. I never say: "what's your bottom dollar on this" since I
find that a little insulting when customers ask that of me. After all, I'm
not interested in selling at my "bottom dollar" I want to make a reasonable
profit. This is capitalism after all. I don't think customers should assume
that all antiques dealers will discount for them. I almost always discount if
the customer asks NICELY but I don't have to sell to someone obnoxious and
will be able to sell it later to someone else. I think it is a benefit if I
offer a discount after the customer asks about one. I'm never offended if
they ask if I will take something off the asking price but I am always
offended if they assume I will take more than 10% off. I've had people offer
me 1/2 of my asking price for a piece of furniture that was already very
reasonably priced. I sold it a week later at full price so someone else
thought it was reasonable too.
Those are my buying and selling policies. Most importantly dealers should
keep in mind that everyone wants the best possible price and that's o.k. and
customers should remember that honest dealers price at what they think is
appropriate so asking for a huge discount is insulting.
Connie Zeigler
--
Durwyn Smedley Antiques
Visit our web site... http://www.iquest.net/smedley/index
E-mail us at......... sme...@iquest.net
Specializing in: All items from the Arts & Crafts era, Russel Wright designs,
art pottery and commercial art wares, and 20th century design
Bobbie Lasky
>The other thing I don't respond well to is an offer stated in the "I'll
>give you" format as opposed to "will you take?". As one of my neighbours
>who has been at this for fifty years told someone: when you pay my rent,
>you can set my prices.
>
>--
>Yank Azman
>"You have been in Afghanistan, I perceive."
I try to be very diplomatic when negotiating prices too, but if I'm your
customer, paying my money for your goods, aren't I paying your rent?
I'm not trying to set prices, I'm just telling you how much it is worth
to me. Although I don't usually ask for a specific price, if the dealer
is not willing to even give me a counteroffer, I'll usually keep my
money for a better deal. Of course, it all depends on how much I love the
item! Then I'll pay you anything you want!
Bobbie
Yank Azman
piece of cardboard tacked up with this message: My prices are already
dealer prices. If you want to pay retail, add 15%.
Jon Dennington
From a seller's point of view, I can admit to many times in the
past when I've sold goods at cost or even below, just to get the
cash flow going again...or simply to pay the rent! As Connie said,
this is capitalism and you may hit the dealer just when he needs to
make a sale...any sale.
From a buyer's point of view, I always have the right combination
of cash ready to back up my negotiated discounted price. It really
does no good to pull out wads of notes after such a deal...you just
won't get it next time.
Jon
Thomas Dell
>keep in mind that everyone wants the best possible price and that's o.k. and
>customers should remember that honest dealers price at what they think is
>appropriate so asking for a huge discount is insulting.
There are exceptions to everything. For example if a dealer has
something overpriced (due to a mistake in a field they are unfamiliar
with). I made an offer of $80 on an item marked $350 which was
immediately accepted. This dealer took a $100 loss on the item, but
when you consider unproductive inventory sitting idle, selling it
was not a mistake.
I can sell this item at a profit, with about a 30-40% margin. But
then again, I'm aware of the item's significance, and what to call it
(this dealer did not know what it was, except in a vague sense),
and who to sell it to if I chose to. It is in my collection so resale
is not an issue however.
--Tom
de...@goonsquad.spies.com / Thomas E Dell
Michael Watson
Creek Chub Nut <jv...@ag.auburn.edu> wrote:
This topic related to negotiating prices when buying...
>On 20 Mar 1996, Rob Hoffman wrote:
>This is especially true for specialty items, which the
>collector/buyer probably knows more about than the dealer. If some
>dealers I know would listen to the collectors that come into their shops
>and bargain (sometimes pointing out defects) they would move items more
>quickly and probably make more money.
>
I would agree, but would point out that the opposite is equally true. The
specialty dealer often knows aspects of the specialty more than the collector
and can offer additional information and appropriate prices.
We try to offer items at appropriate prices and are focusing more on the
collector rather than the buyer who buys more impulsively. Our prices are
often below those of dealers who don't understand the specialty as well. We
are reluctant to give away a healthy percentage of our profit when we take
pains to price appropriately to start with. If you worked for a retail
business and offered the notion that you would reduce the company's profit
simply to move merchandise that was in demand and appropriately priced, then
you're on your way to being fired.
There are certainly many points of view on the subject, and it's possible that
all are equally valid. Discounting is appropriate in certain circumstances, as
is not discounting. Negotiation is an old and fine art, and is appropriate in
certain circumstances. As we learn the trade we find that focusing on the
collector who appreciates the individual piece and understands the value is
the path to better business: appropriate profit and better relationships
between the customers and ourselves. The more impulsive buyer, who counts on a
discount as the decisive factor in the transaction, moves merchandise but is
not the basis of a long term relationship.
--
Durwyn Smedley Antiques
sme...@iquest.net & http://www.iquest.net/smedley/index
Specializing in: All items from the Arts & Crafts era, Russel Wright designs,
art pottery and tile, 50s Modern, and 20th century design.
Nora Siri
writes:
>
<snip>
>Those are my buying and selling policies. Most importantly dealers should
>keep in mind that everyone wants the best possible price and that's o.k. and
>customers should remember that honest dealers price at what they think is
>appropriate so asking for a huge discount is insulting.
>
>
>--
> Durwyn Smedley Antiques
Connie,
That's terrific advice. I'm a new collector in some items, but have a lot of
experience in the area of science-fiction collectibles. The rules there are
differetn, so in the world of antiques, it's as if I'm starting over.
May I add that some of what confuses me is the great disparity in
prices from one dealer to another. Living in NYC, I've seen the most
amazing pricing on items, and it can become quite confusing.
So, in defense of collectors/buyers who blunder, I have to say that if
you've seen a Royal Vienna plate at one shop for $75.00, then see a
like one elsewhere for $600.00 <happened to me yesterday>, you might
assume that the $600 price tag is greatly negotiable.
Regarding book value, as has been mentioned in this thread, it really
has no relationshiop to the prices I've been seeing the last year or
so. It can't even be used as an indicator.
Nora