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Haunted painting on Ebay

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killer...@my-deja.com

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Mar 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/15/00
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There's a supposedly haunted picture for sale on Ebay at the moment
(http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251789217).
I've had a look and it's pretty creepy. Anyone got any ideas who it's
by or what it's supposed to depict?

(can you mail me with replies at nationa...@nme.com)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Doris Bialas

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Mar 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/15/00
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Kat, Did you post 4 times or did the supernatural take over?
Spooooky.
Doris

We are born naked, wet and
hungry. Then things get worse.


Laura Friedman

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Mar 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/15/00
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I assume the painting is an original.

While I thought all the supernatural stuff was complete hogwash (who would
hang *that* painting in their kids room?!), I don't think the selling price
is unreasonable, as it is a very creepy and unusual painting, and the
technique looks strong to my uneducated eye. And after all, art's value is
supposed to be at least partially depending on its impact on the buyer.

I didn't understand, however, what they were talking about in regards to the
last images "moving." They looked like other shots of the original to me.
Anyone see anthing "supernatural" in them?

Laura

<killer...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8anoco$blu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Hi,

I agree that painting is pretty creepy! It gave me shivers
even before I read the description. Even if the painting isn't
haunted it sure looks like it should be.

I think this takes the cake as being the weirdest piece
of artwork that I have ever seen.

I think the item in the hollow dolls hand has some significance
but what I do not know.

I would guess and say the painting is from the depression era.
early to late 1920's. The doll, window panes, the way the doll
is dresses and its hair style all seem to point to this time.
Maybe the artwork is a comment on the use of moveable dolls
(I forget the name) and maybe a bit of superstition behind the
use of ventriloquists throwing their voices and making the dolls
come alive and seem like children. Or maybe its about a child
murderer who was insane enough to think that if he sacrificed
the lives of some children then his doll would come alive. Thus
the significance of the hollow doll! And maybe the item in her
hands is for imprisoning the children's souls. Hands behind the
window pane seem to sort of hint at something like this.

I'm surprised this painting is going for so much money. I guess
some people are either curious, superstitious or just plain
stupid.

Haunted Antiques R Us! :)

Kathleen

Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
to ""nationalexpress\"@nme.com

Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
to ""nationalexpress\"@nme.com

MrAVenez

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Wow,

When I read this post I thought it had to be pretty silly, but when I went and
saw the painting, I also got the creeps.. I dont know a damn thing about
paintings, but to me, the first thing I thought when I saw it was death.. I
cant really explain why, but thats just my view.. Anyone else agree??

DBallas464

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Good lord! Someone save that URL for Halloween! Gave me goosebumps! The
thing in the dolls hand is electrical? The wires that come off the top/bottom
look like a hookup to me. Any guesses as to what that could be?

Lauren

Jon Dennington

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Forget the haunted crap, but I really felt that this was something truly evil,
produced by a very sick mind indeed.

Jon


In article <20000316005510...@ng-ff1.aol.com>, dball...@aol.com

Carol Millar

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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I agree with you Laura. The final pictures look like different angles
done deliberately with strange lighting.

Personally I think this was a whale of an advertising job.

The doll's eyes show on my monitor (very dark brown), and the thing in
her hand looks like it is tied at one end with thin ribbon.

I see it as a small boy who wants a sibling instead of a doll and the
hands at the window are possible prospective siblings trying to get in.
It doesn't look evil to me, nor do I see anything that would make it
haunted.

As said, I think the lister has a real career in advertising, maybe in
real estate. :-)

Carol

Laura Friedman wrote:
>
> I assume the painting is an original.
>
> While I thought all the supernatural stuff was complete hogwash (who would
> hang *that* painting in their kids room?!), I don't think the selling price
> is unreasonable, as it is a very creepy and unusual painting, and the
> technique looks strong to my uneducated eye. And after all, art's value is
> supposed to be at least partially depending on its impact on the buyer.
>
> I didn't understand, however, what they were talking about in regards to the
> last images "moving." They looked like other shots of the original to me.
> Anyone see anthing "supernatural" in them?
>
> Laura
>
> <killer...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8anoco$blu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Doris,

No my server messed up. :)

A more down to earth cause!

Regards,

Kathleen

Kat

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Carol,

On the other hand after thinking it looked creepy I thought since
it hit a grand at the end of the auction the people selling it were
real smooth operators.

Regards,

Kathleen

St Trinian

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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It looks to me like an interpretation the Hawthorne's Turn of the Screw, not
the work of some "sick mind." I think someone was having fun with a chilling
and provocative story line. StT

Dennis Thompson

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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In article <38D0E7F3...@mediaone.net>, cmi...@mediaone.net says...

>
>I agree with you Laura. The final pictures look like different angles
>done deliberately with strange lighting.
>
>Personally I think this was a whale of an advertising job.
>
>The doll's eyes show on my monitor (very dark brown), and the thing in
>her hand looks like it is tied at one end with thin ribbon.
>

Look closely, those are definitely wires with spade connectors on the end.
It's an electrical device.


DT


Laura Friedman

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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"Kat" <xy...@stacken.kth.se> wrote in message
news:38D0ED8F...@stacken.kth.se...

> Doris,
>
> No my server messed up. :)

Coincidence?

I don't think so...

<insert Twilight Zone theme here>

Laura

Ronnie McKinley

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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In rec.antiques Carol Millar wrote:

>I agree with you Laura. The final pictures look like different angles
>done deliberately with strange lighting.
>

NAW!!! .. I think you're wrong. It a genuine SPOOKY painting, I went
back to have another look ... AND guess WHAT??!!!!!!??

MY GOD!!!!!!!!! but you won't believe this.

QUICK!! have a LOOK!!


http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~mckinley/temp/81.jpg

Ronnie
=====
Totally Amazing Antiques
====================

Carol Millar

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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eeeuuuu. You neutralized it with green beer. Happy St. Patrick's Day.

Carol

Carol Millar

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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Maybe the doll wants him to get a charge out of her gift?

Carol

Dennis Thompson wrote:
>
> In article <38D0E7F3...@mediaone.net>, cmi...@mediaone.net says...
> >

> >I agree with you Laura. The final pictures look like different angles
> >done deliberately with strange lighting.
> >

Paula Wood

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Mar 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/16/00
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>Subject: Re: Haunted painting on Ebay
>Path:

You guys there all kinds of tricks you can play on peoples eyes using different
camera angles & camera lens colors.

The boy in the photo looks normal except mad at something. The doll is just a
old doll back then. The eyes of the doll back then were set farther back into
their head.

Maybe the artist couldn't get the socket eyes that these dolls had, just right
so they colored them in black. The tube piece in her hands is a cylinder
cellinoid from a car. A old car engine. The boy in the photo might have got the
car part from him dads garage & took his sisters doll from here room as a
sibling rivaley joke to play on sister. He looks mad because he put the part in
the dolls hands & sister didn;'t take to kindly to his cute joke.

The only thing I can think of why a boy child back then would be seen in a
photo with a girls doll. The hands in the window might be a trick from the
artist.

His mother or Daddy probably told him what would happen to him if he pulled a
trick like that again. The artist could be the boy himself in the painting.
Then painted what he proceived what would happen to him by his imagination what
punishment his parents were talking. That is is what happens to bad bouys that
keep playing pranks on little sisters.

My mother & father pulled some cute ones on me as well. Like telling me if I
get out of bed again the boo man would come out of my closet and get me.

I was so afraid to get out of bed until I was 15 years old it wasn't even
funny.

There person that sold the painting on ebay did a great spook job. But, no
deal.

There 41/2 year old do to the mad look on the buys face & the dolls missing
eyes & hands in the window. Probably had a imagination like you wouldn't
beleive.

Why would anyone in there right mind put a creepy painting where a 41/2 year
old could see it anyway.

I have a 7 and 8 year old & I would either give the painting to some art
museium or burn it. That would scare any kinda child.

The painting to me is just flat sick. They were sick to even think of painting
such a thing.

The people who sold it on ebay could have found another way of getting rid of
the thing. Not profit wise either.

I've seen better art by far. The artist had to be a tortured person to paint
such a thing. They needed help along time ago.

You can feel it by looking at the painting again. This person that made the
piece of what you call art, had childhood problems & torture done to them. This
painting was found by the trash. That's probably where it was suppose to end
up. Not shown for the world to see.

This is a picture of someone hurt & the only way to kill the pain of the past
not to be displayed of the pain. This painting is probably the only way they
could show there true feelings of what had happen to them in the past. Their
only cure from their pain that happen to them so long ago.

Think about it. Some kids back then & now days are tortured beyond beleif.
Their only out in to clamup or something else.

Paula PS. That's what I see in this painting. PAIN & LOTS OF IT.
Delete Fada from email, Paula,
Haltom City.TX. 76117

Michael Dougherty

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Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
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The painting seemed totally normal to me - does that mean I'm sick, or
have a really good monitor? It looks like a talented artist using an
older doll as a prop - nothing spooky :) Would people be happier if the
doll was a Barbie?

I almost wonder if the sibling theory isn't on the right track - could
the object in her hand represent the 'spark' she doesn't have because
she is a doll, not a little girl? Oh well, I prefer a good dog portrait
any day :)

Lydia P-D

Carol Millar wrote:
>
> I agree with you Laura. The final pictures look like different angles
> done deliberately with strange lighting.
>
> Personally I think this was a whale of an advertising job.
>
> The doll's eyes show on my monitor (very dark brown), and the thing in
> her hand looks like it is tied at one end with thin ribbon.
>

> I see it as a small boy who wants a sibling instead of a doll and the
> hands at the window are possible prospective siblings trying to get in.
> It doesn't look evil to me, nor do I see anything that would make it
> haunted.
>
> As said, I think the lister has a real career in advertising, maybe in
> real estate. :-)
>
> Carol
>

Doris Bialas

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Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
to
Lydia wrote:
<snip>

I almost wonder if the sibling theory isn't on the right track - could
the object in her hand represent the 'spark' she doesn't have because
she is a doll, not a little girl? Oh well, I prefer a good dog portrait
any day :)

Perhaps if someone could identify the artist his/her life story could
"reflect"
the story behind this pic.
Lydia, Do you mean the dog pics with the big eyes playing cards? I love
them too<g>.
Doris

Everyone lies, but it doesn't
matter since no one listens.


Laura Friedman

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Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
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"Doris Bialas" <dora...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3518-38...@storefull-623.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

Do you mean the dog pics with the big eyes playing cards? I love
> them too<g>.

I have a pool table, and I have cats. So naturally my new and overly
well-meaning boyfriend assumed that I would therefore like to pepper my
house (decorated '50s modern) with facsimilies of same.

So he went out and way overpaid for an antique print - of cats playing pool.

"Oh wow honey, that's *so* great... just what I needed!" <false smile>.

Now I have to find a place to hang the damned thing.

Laura

C1Wave

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Mar 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/18/00
to
>So he went out and way overpaid for an antique print - of cats playing pool.
>
>"Oh wow honey, that's *so* great... just what I needed!" <false smile>.
>
>Now I have to find a place to hang the damned thing.
>
>Laura
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


hang it on the wall behind the toilet he can look at it when he stands there
and you won't see it when you use the facilities :)

David H. Dean

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Mar 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/19/00
to

ROFLMAO!

-dave

Arnold & Jennifer Pomerance

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Mar 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/20/00
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Laura Friedman wrote:
>
> "Doris Bialas" <dora...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:3518-38...@storefull-623.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Do you mean the dog pics with the big eyes playing cards? I love
> > them too<g>.
>
> I have a pool table, and I have cats. So naturally my new and overly
> well-meaning boyfriend assumed that I would therefore like to pepper > my house (decorated '50s modern) with facsimilies of same.
>
> So he went out and way overpaid for an antique print - of cats playing > pool.
>
> "Oh wow honey, that's *so* great... just what I needed!" <false > smile>.
>
> Now I have to find a place to hang the damned thing.

How about on the underside of your pool table? <smirk>

JP

Gary & lois Edwards

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Mar 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/21/00
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Laura Friedman <lau...@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message news:xDRA4.1586

> So he went out and way overpaid for an antique print - of cats playing
pool.
> Now I have to find a place to hang the damned thing.
> Laura

A good, dark, hall closet comes to mind.
Lois E....whose husband bought her a "Black Mammy Doll." He meant well.


Laura Friedman

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Mar 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/21/00
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Thanks to all those who gave advice on hiding hideous gift.

The problem is, boyfriend is *so* proud of the damned thing! I certainly
don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for expensive presents, as I'd like to
receive many more in the future. But, aren't men trainable? I've started
taking him to shows and pointing things out, "this one I like... this one I
hate..." etc. Maybe he'll catch on.

Laura

"Gary & lois Edwards" <ga...@bmi.net> wrote in message
news:sdg25h...@corp.supernews.com...

Gary & lois Edwards

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Mar 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/21/00
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Laura Friedman <lau...@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message news:JOXB4.865

But, aren't men trainable? I've started
> taking him to shows and pointing things out, "this one I like... this one
I
> hate..." etc. Maybe he'll catch on.
> Laura
Yes they are, but only to a certain extent....I've trained mine to purchase
jewelery.....where he does a fantastic job.....but he knows nothing about
antiques, so we just don't go there. ;-)
Lois E.


Cyanogirl

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Mar 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/22/00
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Laura wrote:
>I certainly
>don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for expensive presents, as I'd like
>to
>receive many more in the future. But, aren't men trainable?
<snip>

Oh dear. Time to break out the ol' whip again.
Cyn ;)

Paula Wood

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Mar 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/22/00
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>Subject: Re: Haunted painting on Ebay
>Path:

Ship me the painting. I love cats.

In my life time so far I've had 140 different ones.

When I was 10 years old living in Matton Ill.

I had 20 different ones at one time. They made a blanket of cats on my bed
every night. Talking about staying warm in winter.

Paula

Charles Kehoe

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Mar 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/22/00
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Laura Friedman wrote:

> Thanks to all those who gave advice on hiding hideous gift.
>

> The problem is, boyfriend is *so* proud of the damned thing! I certainly


> don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for expensive presents, as I'd like to

> receive many more in the future. But, aren't men trainable? I've started


> taking him to shows and pointing things out, "this one I like... this one I
> hate..." etc. Maybe he'll catch on.
>
> Laura
>

> "Gary & lois Edwards" <ga...@bmi.net> wrote in message
> news:sdg25h...@corp.supernews.com...
> >

> > Laura Friedman <lau...@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message

> news:xDRA4.1586
> > > So he went out and way overpaid for an antique print - of cats playing
> > pool.
> > > Now I have to find a place to hang the damned thing.
> > > Laura
> >
> > A good, dark, hall closet comes to mind.
> > Lois E....whose husband bought her a "Black Mammy Doll." He meant well.
> >
> >
> >

While I hesitate to step into this minefield when my learned colleague Dr.
Cyano probably has experience that is certainly both more current and "Hands
On" than mine there is one point that I think the others may have missed. You
mentioned that he "way overpaid" which could either mean that:
A- he left the tag on (or you coaxed the story out of him) or
B- that whatever he paid exceeded the thing's intrinsic value in your view; he
can't seem to resist similar "Cute" items and you're starting to price self
storage places.

If the factual answer is A, then it would seem that you have a generous chap on
the line and hopefully more education will eventually work, or you can point
out the error of his ways by buying him things that are calculated to have the
same jarring effect that his gift did on you. For example, if he's into other
contact sports, try to discern what teams he follows; if your relationship is
at the wantonly expensive gift/purchase affection level you can probably tell
by checking the radio settings on your car to see if he's already reset them so
he won't miss a minute of that station's output. A good long-term sign, if a
little distracting. Armed with that data, enlist a trusted guy friend (if that
isn't an oxymoron for you) for suggestions so you can buy him something flashy,
expensive and non-returnable with that team's chief rival as the central theme.
For example, give a Chicago fan a Packer's Cheesehead Hat with large 14 karat
mice. He will swallow hard, just as you did with the Cats painting, and
proclaim his love for it. Make sure he wears it outside that very day,
regardless of the season. Don't be put off by his wanting to stash it in the
trunk for safekeeping. Also don't be surprised when he reports that the car was
stolen and burned within a week. Buy him another one to make up for the
heartbreak; don't just hand it to him-pull him down on the couch and tell him
you have something he wants and is missing. Depending on his density, he will
probably soon suggest that perhaps you both might want to register at some
favorite stores-just so each get's the right size, material, and color,
dontchaknow? Sears does it, as do most other stores like your local NAPA
dealer. Introduce him by name, repeated several times to your favorite antique
dealer, jeweler, or stock broker. Reinforce it by asking him what he thought of
Amy's Shoppe whilst at dinner; he'll be clueless at first but eventually the
neurons will be imprinted."Gift=Amy's" Discreetly tuck their cards in his
pocket and behind the sunvisor of the car, so he'll be reminded when he's
combing his hair at the traffic light.

However if the answer is B, and despite your coaxing and perhaps a session or
two with Dr. Cyano or someone in her field in your city that she can call to
consult/refer, he continues along this path you may have unwittingly let the
Doofus Americanus into your life. If you suspect that, probably it will show up
in other areas. Watch when he's feeding; if the food seems to hold his interest
longer than you do, or if he makes any comment about the price of the entree
before you order (and especially if he comments on the price after you
order-("Golly, I never thought I'd pay as much for a fish as I did for a tank
of gas") or fumbles with the screw cap from the $3.98 bottle of Ripple and then
sniffs it-you may want to cut your losses. Same thing if he is urging you
through dinner so he can get back in time for his favorite show. If he isn't
paying strict attention to not so subtle hints and directions now, when his
goal seems within his grasp and his antennae are as far up as they're ever
going to get- the future potential when he's distracted by other stimuli like a
46" TV and his very own lifetime subscription to both Playboy and Motor Trend
isn't bright.

I now yield the floor to my colleague who will explain the various exit
strategies, including the Double Date Reverse 3 B where your "best friend"
somehow finds him irresistible.

Charley Kehoe
Fire...@aol.com
PS-If you want to really move him out at Closeout Speed, be sure to hint that
sometimes your buddies on the 'Net wander Off Topic and talk about friends and
family. Don't tell him how to find us, of course. If he can't figure out that
part, or isn't curious enough to ask, you probably don't want him doing
anything more intimate than checking your car's dipstick.

Paula Wood

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Mar 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/22/00
to
>Subject: Re: Haunted painting on Ebay
>Path:

>o: "Laura Friedman"

>But, aren't men trainable?

Yes, after a period of time. David & I have been together 13 years.

He tried to surprize me with a very exspensive radio a couple of weeks ago.
Cause I use to have one but, sold it.

So, he bid on one on ebay. I looked at his auctions to see what items to espect
at the front door in a shoet time. Then I saw this on he bid on but wasn;t over
yet.

When he got home. I siad honey don't get me that radio. If I want another I'll
get it when the market is not so hot on thst one. Those are so exspensive. It
will just sit around and collect dust like the other one did.

Then I went looking for my iron the other day and couldn't find it. David told
me it broke.

So, today he just won me a yellow 50s iron on ebay with wood holder. Now, that
I'll use.

Yes, they can be trained. I have told David many of times you want to surprize
me get me something I need, can use & is old that I don't have. It even matches
with my kitchen decor.

Cyanogirl

unread,
Mar 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/23/00
to
Charley wrote:
>While I hesitate to step into this minefield when my learned colleague Dr.
>Cyano probably has experience that is certainly both more current and "Hands
>On" than mine
<snip>

*To which of my many doctoral degrees and areas of experience and expertise are
you referring? ;)


>if your relationship
>is
>at the wantonly expensive gift/purchase affection level <snip>

*Hmm, when's the last time I was on that level with someone? I'm wracking my
brain. Maybe it's a generational thing. No, that can't be it. Something
about "getting the milk for free" comes to mind.


>For example, give a Chicago fan a Packer's Cheesehead Hat with large 14
>karat
>mice. He will swallow hard, just as you did with the Cats painting, and
>proclaim his love for it. Make sure he wears it outside that very day,
>regardless of the season. Don't be put off by his wanting to stash it in
>the
>trunk for safekeeping. Also don't be surprised when he reports that the
>car was
>stolen and burned within a week. Buy him another one to make up for the
>heartbreak; don't just hand it to him-pull him down on the couch and tell
>him
>you have something he wants and is missing.

<snip>

*Ha. I like how you think.


>However if the answer is B, and despite your coaxing and perhaps a session
>or
>two with Dr. Cyano or someone in her field in your city that she can call
>to
>consult/refer, he continues along this path you may have unwittingly let
>the
>Doofus Americanus into your life.

<snip>

*"Healer, heal myself."


>If he isn't
>paying strict attention to not so subtle hints and directions now, when
>his
>goal seems within his grasp and his antennae are as far up as they're ever
>going to get- the future potential when he's distracted by other stimuli
>like a
>46" TV and his very own lifetime subscription to both Playboy and Motor
>Trend
>isn't bright.
>I now yield the floor to my colleague who will explain the various exit
>strategies, including the Double Date Reverse 3 B where your "best friend"
>somehow finds him irresistible.
>Charley Kehoe
>Fire...@aol.com

>PS-<snip>Don't tell him how to find us, of course. If he can't figure out


>that
>part, or isn't curious enough to ask, you probably don't want him doing
>anything more intimate than checking your car's dipstick.


*And why does it always come back to cars? ;) Oh, Fireboy, this was a most
amusing post. I must admit that I am not nearly as adept at exit strategies as
one might think (although Double Date Reverse does sound strangely familiar).
I'm better at entrance strategies.

Thanks for the laughs.
Kisses all around.
Cyn
======
The Doctor is In
(But it'll cost ya)

A2Gumbo

unread,
Mar 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/25/00
to
>
>The problem is, boyfriend is *so* proud of the damned thing! I certainly
>don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for expensive presents, as I'd like to
>receive many more in the future. But, aren't men trainable?

Yes, I've found a rolled up newspaper and a couple of light raps on the nose
work wonders!

Ashley

Charleen Bunjiovianna

unread,
Mar 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/25/00
to
In article <JOXB4.865$ZT3....@news.pacbell.net> "Laura Friedman" <lau...@nospam.pacbell.net> writes:
>Thanks to all those who gave advice on hiding hideous gift.
>
>The problem is, boyfriend is *so* proud of the damned thing! I certainly
>don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for expensive presents, as I'd like to
>receive many more in the future. But, aren't men trainable?

No.

You have to order 'em from the factory with the options you want. And
even then there's problems.

I could have sworn I ordered the Self-Feeding Neatnik Gives-Expensive-Gifts
Gets-Down-On-One-Knee-to-Propose options package, but see what I got.

Charleen
and I don't even want to talk about tax, title and destination charges

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