potassium permanganate for wood stain ?
Claude Boland
I can not get the antique wood color that I am looking for with the
Minwax stains.
John-Henry Collinson
Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> writes
>Has anyone used potassium permanganate for staining new #3 pine?
>
>I can not get the antique wood color that I am looking for with the
>Minwax stains.
I have not used it.
But in "The Practical Photographer" (1903 Vol. 1, No. 4,) The Rev. F. C.
Lambert M.A. recommends 1 part potassium permanganate to fifty parts
water to give an Oak Brown stain.
And, who on this newsgroup, is worthy enough to doubt a man of the
cloth? Let he who is without sin throw the first potassium permanganate
crystal but try out the formula on an off-cut first.
--
John-Henry Collinson
http://www.jhenry.demon.co.uk/galantee.htm
A Victorian miscellany
John-Henry Collinson
<mcki...@glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>In rec.antiques John-Henry Collinson wrote:
>
>>I have not used it.
>>
To be sure. To be sure. As they say to the west of here.
Claude Boland
Hi:
Thanks for the advice. here and by email, I just got 2 small containers
1 3/8"x3/4" tall, from Research Mannikins Inc. for $2.25 each.
1-800-826-0654. I was told by an john-henry of rec.antiques who emailed
me "The Practical Photographer" (1903 Vol. 1, No. 4,) The Rev. F. C.
Lambert M.A. recommends 1 part potassium permanganate to fifty parts
water to give an Oak Brown stain ". I did this and it comes out is
purple in color when mixed. When you put it on wood, it then turns the
wood to a brown. Sort of a burnt umber in color. At 50 to one it filled
up a pickel jar.
I tried it on some #2 pine from the lumber company that I use for making
the Early American Painted country furniture. 18th and 19 century for a
local shop. She did not like the color of Minwax Puritan Pine then Amber
shellac over that. The 2 coats of satin varithain rubbed down with a wax
and 0000 steel wool that I had been using.
The color I think is what I want. It was a little dark so I thinned it 1
to 1 and the color it think is a little better. I will not know until I
put on a piece of pine furniture. Cost wise it will be a lot cheaper and
it seems to get a better penetration and does not hide the wood grain.
It raises the grain some by not a lot.
It will be interesting to see how it holds up when I rub through a top
coat of paint to see the wood underneath, which I do in the distressing
process, to make it look old. Also when I distress the raw wood
hopefully it will darken the distressed areas, that I put in, more than
the other surrounding areas.
I promise not to mix it with glycerine.
Thanks again for the advice.
Mike Wilcox
Let us know how it all turns out ;~))
Mike Wilcox
Claude Boland
wrote:
> In rec.antiques Claude Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> wrote:
>
> >snip>
> >It will be interesting to see how it holds up when I rub through a top
> >coat of paint to see the wood underneath, which I do in the distressing
> >process, to make it look old. Also when I distress the raw wood
> >hopefully it will darken the distressed areas, that I put in, more than
> >the other surrounding areas.
>
>
> Have you ever considered using "old" wood to begin with? that is,
> reclaimed wood, rather than new wood? Reclaimed from a salvage yard or
> wood from a pine breaker, that is,the wood from an old piece of pine
> which is beyond economical repair or not worth the restoring.
>
> Also the folk who make Briwax (Bolloms) also produce a number of water
> based stains which come in array of different colours. No need to mess
> around with chemicals or pigments, just open the bottle of ready mixed
> stain, run a few test strips, dilute (with water) adjust and away ya go.
>
>
>
> Ronnie
> ======
Yes, I use old wood when ever I can find it. Also scapes from the saw
mills for $5.00 a pick-up load. I cut out the good wood and use the rest
in my wood stove. Some pieces of furniture require good wood like #3
pine at $1.19 a BF. When the lumber yard gets in a new shipment of #3 I
try to sort through it first and get some good pieces.
I will look into the Briwas water based stains. Thanks.
Mike Wilcox
You could also contact companies such as Lee Valley and Van Dykes, they both
have sites online and carry a line of both spirit and water based aniline dye
type stains.
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Claude Boland wrote:
>
> >Some pieces of furniture require good wood like #3
> >pine at $1.19 a BF. When the lumber yard gets in a new shipment of #3 I
> >try to sort through it first and get some good pieces.
>
> Excuse my ignorance, but what is #3 pine, please?
>
> Ronnie
> ======
Hi Ronnie,
#3 pine is generally roofing grade ( in Canada). The grades work by the
number of knots & defects and the amount of "clear" lumber in the piece. #3
is pretty rough stuff, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than #1 or select
(clear) grades. Sometimes if you root through the pile of #3 there's the odd
bit of nice clear stuff you could build small items like work tables out of.
Mike Wilcox
Claude Boland
One reason that I like #3 pine is when I do painted antique
reproductions I rub through the top painted layer to expose the
preceding paint layer or wood distressing or knots underneath.
So the defects and knots work for you. I just finished a chimney
cupboard in black. Black seems to be a big item now days. I did add a
couple mouse holes at the bottom of the doors also.
Claude Boland
<appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Mike:
I just tried potassium permanganate 50 to 1 and also cutting that in
half 1 to 1 with water. It seems that the stain effect is the same with
both mixes. sure makes it a cheap stain. On the knots in the pine and
the distressing that I put in the wood the stain really darkens it more
that with oil base stain.
One reason that I like #3 pine is when I do painted antique
reproductions I rub through the top painted layer to expose the
preceding paint layer or wood distressing or knots underneath.
So the defects and knots work for you.
I just finished a chimney cupboard in black. Black seems to be a big
item now days. I did add a couple mouse holes at the bottom of the doors
also.
I just came back in from the shop where I put some of the potassium
permanganate 50 to 1 and then some that I thinned to 1 to 1 with water.
The color turns out the same. The stain darkens the distressing and wood
knots more that it does with the oil stains.
I have put some of this water based stain on the more expensive sugar
pine and it turn it to a more of a browner color.
For the black paint, The customer had given me some Olde Century Colors
acrylic latex paint - Lamp black #2022. It covers real good. I did use 2
coats.
Latter in the day before it got to dry, I rubbed through the paint with
alcohol and 0000 steel wool to expose the wood below. Some of the wood
that I expose I rubbed to far. I had used a different water based stain
other than the potassium permanganate on this piece for the base stain
over the #3 pine. So where I had over rubbed it the #3 pine was sort of
a bad stark white. I took some of the potassium permanganate and put on
the over exposed light areas and it darken it right away to a real nice
brown color. Then I did my two coats of polyurethane and rubbed it down
with wax and steel wool.
I took a couple pictures with my digital camera and printed them out to
send to the customer.
Next time I need to remember to thin the acrylic latex paint with some
Floetrol latex paint conditioner. I think that it may make it easier
brushing. It also says that is ideal for faux finishing. I have not
gotten into that yet.
So that is about it. I need to get out to the shop and get to work on my
next job, a jelly cupboard with screening. I have not tried the
punchured it type yet. Maybe on the next one. I hope she sells this
stuff.
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Claude Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> wrote:
>
> > I did add a
> >couple mouse holes at the bottom of the doors also.
>
> I love those big rat holes one finds on the bottom of backboards of a
> (food) press.
>
> err .... do you do worm holes as well?
>
> Ronnie
> ======
Used to all that in the old days working for *&^% Antiques*. We would get
in an old farm table with a good set of legs with the rest beyond repair,
on would go new aprons & top** and the fun would begin. We would treat
the new old top to some easing on the wear areas, then stain with various
concoctions of water and spirit based dyes until we got the colour right,
then seal it with a coat of shellac. After that we would wax the top with
a power floor waxer walking back & forth across the top with a pair of
old work boots whose soles were encrusted with tack and nail heads and
grim. To heighten the effect we would wash the shop floor and take the
dirty water and wash the table top with it and let it dry up and wax
again (without the boots). Then all that was required was to leave it out
front like it just came off the truck.
* I don't want to be sued, they are still around ;~))
**Old lumber
Mike Wilcox
"Lovejoy Antiques"
Mike Wilcox
Hi Claude,
Just a hint for you, most of the old stuff had a minimum of knots, so if you
want to got with really authentic repro's check the #3 pile and sort out the
best boards and cut for the clearest stock, use the knotty stuff on the back
boards. If you want to do a super jelly/pie cupboard use copper instead of tin,
to punch out the design just back the copper up on a piece of pine and punch
through into the pine.
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Mike Wilcox <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Used to all that in the old days working for *&^% Antiques*. We would get
> >in an old farm table with a good set of legs with the rest beyond repair,
> >on would go new aprons & top** and the fun would begin. We would treat
> >the new old top to some easing on the wear areas, then stain with various
> >concoctions of water and spirit based dyes until we got the colour right,
> >then seal it with a coat of shellac. After that we would wax the top with
> >a power floor waxer walking back & forth across the top with a pair of
> >old work boots whose soles were encrusted with tack and nail heads and
> >grim. To heighten the effect we would wash the shop floor and take the
> >dirty water and wash the table top with it and let it dry up and wax
> >again (without the boots). Then all that was required was to leave it out
> >front like it just came off the truck.
>
> Aye, Tinker.
>
> Funny isn't. Show a punter a genuine antique furniture <something>
> honestly point out it has a little woodworm in one of the drawer liners.
> But this is regarded fairly normal considering. Tell them the worm is
> dead, dormant, a bunch of ex-worms, gone to the great flight hole in the
> sky, all treated with the right stuff, the little bastards are NO MORE
> well dead and happy .. and the punter STILL jumps 50 feckin' foot into
> the air and runs screaming pulling their hair out down the road to the
> nearest repro shop, and buys, something with artificial woodworm holes,
> and into the bargain, pays 3 times the price.
>
> Ronnie
> ======
I had the opposite happen with one of my repro's, an exact copy of a Prince
Edward County worktable Circa 1800-20. I put in a mate's local shop at a
variety of prices over 8 months, everyone "oowwed and awwed , isn't it lovely"
but as soon as they read the tag " Reproduction of a early19th Century
Original" they looked at it like something formerly canine they stepped just
in. I should go back to my old ways and restore it ;~)) Strange old world.
Mike Wilcox
Claude Boland
<appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Mike:
I live in the Pacific NW now and I think that things have changed back
East. I emailed a picture on my last pie-safe and she sent the following
email.
"----Loved your pie-safe. We are getting around $1200 for old ones with
bad tins & lousy paint."
They put on antique reproduction shows in the Chicago and Boston area
for the last 20 years and do great. They get 50 or 60 Crafters of
different types.
We lived in the Chicago are back in the 60's and did shows in Illinois,
Wisc. and Ind. Things where altogether different back then. We had our
house furnished in Early American primitives in walnut. Sold them all
when we came out here in the early 70's because we did not know where we
would end up at. Back then I would go back and buy truck loads of
furniture while I was younger. Prices are to high for me now to buy and
hard to find. I dislike running retail shop and paying money to come one
to see my things.
I could open a restoration and repair shop here and charge $60.00 per
hour but loose my freedom. I am lucky if I make $5.00 per hour this way.
It is interesting learning about how to do the millwork on the furniture
and the finishing.
I like to look at the auctions back East and see the Early American
primitive that sell for a lot of money and try copying them. I paste a
copy of the old ones that sold for a lot of money under a drawer etc. so
the buyer can see where the design comes from. Then sign and date it.
Mike Wilcox
> snipped for bandwidth
Hi Claude,
If you are really interested in this hobby there was a fellow named Carlisle
Lynch who made quite a few measured drawings of 18th & early 19th Century
pieces with construction details and all. I think he has since passed on, but I
understand his plans are still available. I've built a couple from his plans
and they were spot on some of the originals that have come through for
restoration. Here's a link to an image of a Lynch copy
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot71.shtml
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Mike Wilcox <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > I've built a couple from his plans
> >and they were spot on some of the originals that have come through for
> >restoration. Here's a link to an image of a Lynch copy
> >http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot71.shtml
> >
>
> Very nice, Mike. But, what is something like that going to cost? Fine
> timber, secondary materials, hardware, man's time, man's finish costs, and
> a final retail mark-up?
>
> Seriously, one could buy something like that (similar) at every and any
> Newark (England Notts) fair either as a ready to go Edwardian piece, or a
> slightly in need of attention 1800-30s period piece .... around about
> 350-650 (UK) trade.
>
> Even a rough period one and certainly an Edwardian would be better every
> time than a modern repro. I don't see the point in modern repro. If a man
> has skill or hands to build quality pieces then why not do something modern
> and contemporary from the inside of his own head rather than regurgitated
> retro.
>
> Ronnie
> ======
The big problem with building anything new or different is getting anyone to
buy it while you're still alive ;~)
Here's a rough break down of what I would charge for the hunt board built in my
shop.
Material cost for that one ( in cherry with pine as a secondary wood) works out
to:
$110.00 for the cherry.
$ 37.50 for the pine
$ 29.50 for waste( about 20%)
--------------------------------
$177.00
--------------------------------
Labour
$619.50 -My labour costs run about 3.5 x material
---------------------------------------------------
Subtotal
$796.50
---------------------------------------------------
Profit margin
$159.30- @20%
--------------------------------------------------
Total
$995.80 ( Canadian funds- UK pounds 424.72)-- finishing extra, clients choice.
Mike Wilcox
Claude Boland
<appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Mike:
The reason that I like the Early American Country Antiques is because:
1. I was born and raised in the early 1930's on a 3rd generation family
farm still using horses to farm with. My grandfather had a lot of good
stories about how they use to farm back in the old days of the late
1800's. - That was my 1 st 17 years. Altho things changed a lot by the
end on the 17 years. My Great grandfather was a cabinet maker and back
then they also made the caskets and fixed the dead bodies. So
woodworking and country primitives are an interest latter in life.
2. For the next 50 years I spent in the construction field and in
Architecture as a draftsman and a field person. Over half of that time
as a general contractor of custom homes. In that job you are always
under the gun to make every thing perfect or you don't get paid and you
are responsible for all the other subcontractor and suppliers. So when I
retired several years ago, I am taking my art instructors advice. In
class she said, don't try to be so perfect in your art work. So now
seeing the antique rustic country furniture selling for hundreds of
thousands of dollars in their much used conditon, I am not striving for
perfect wood working. I think of the mouse holes and 2 or 3 coats of
worn out pants as beautiful. I do enjoy the fine craftsmanship of my
great grandfathers furniture tho and some of the hidden details I find
on close study. I sure wish we had some of the fine woods that they had
back then.
I do like Frank Loyd Wrght's furniture tho and will probably try to
design a house and furnurntue of that period.
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Mike Wilcox <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Labour
> >$619.50
> >---------------------------------------------------
>
> $619 = approx 270 (UK)
>
> Hey Mike, at those labour costs you must be permanently jigged-up to do
> this model ..... or else the cost of living in Canada is for nothing ;>)
>
> The handyman builder I uses wants at least a 120 pound a day.
>
> Ronnie
> ======
Yeah jigged up machinery* and ready to go, jigs for tapered legs, mortises,
dovetails, rabbeting, tenons etc., plus the cost of living is about half of
GB for most items. You also have to take into account the profit margin on
top of the total which adds another $159.00 to the family fortune ;~) A lot
of it has to do with banging these things out for 20 years. For example I
can make those work tables I mentioned in an earlier post, which are a
kissing cousin to the hunt board**, for less than $60.00 (my cost) out of
scrap pine. These same tables retail as repro's from custom cabinet makers
start at $350.00 US. the trick is getting the Americans to buy my stuff ;~))
*
1 table saw set up for ripping
1 table saw set up for tenons, dadoes & rabbets
1 radial saw set up for cross cuts
1 drill press set up for mortise work
1 drill press set up for boring
1 lathe for small work to 5" x 5"x 34"
1 lathe for large work to 12" x 12" x 12 feet+
1 bandsaw
1 disc/drum sander
And other tools out the wazoo
**Same jigging used.
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> Geez!!! never mind the ** 'New Yankee Workshop.'
>
> .... it's Mike's ... "Little Machine Shop of Horrors"
>
> Only Joking, Mike ;>)
>
> Ronnie
> ======
>
> ** the most boring TV show on UK Home and Discovery,
> worse that watching paint dry.
Hi Ronnie
When you look at it I'd have to get half dozen apprentices to replace all
the machinery ;~))
P.S I forgot to mention the planers, routers, sanders.......
Mike Wilcox
Mary Bellack
> Geez!!! never mind the ** 'New Yankee Workshop.'
>
> .... it's Mike's ... "Little Machine Shop of Horrors"
>
> Only Joking, Mike ;>)
>
> Ronnie
> ======
>
> ** the most boring TV show on UK Home and Discovery,
> worse that watching paint dry.
Have you seen (St.) Roy, the Woodwright? For color, there's nothing
like a clumsy redhead. Man, can that guy bleed!
Mary
Mike Wilcox
> Gad almighty Wilcox!!!!!!!!!! ... and here's me thinking you was the
> last of the Luddites.
>
> Ned Ludd
> ========
> who destroyed machinery antiques
Ah, Ned me lad, long time no hear. This machinery of mine is much like your
old loom set out back of your cottage overlooking the garden, allowing for a
good honest living, making a slave of no man. The old hand tools are also
there and are always used for the things made by other's hands. No toils for
the factory owner for this Yeoman.
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> In rec.antiques Mike Wilcox <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Ah, Ned me lad, long time no hear. This machinery of mine is much like your
> >old loom set out back of your cottage overlooking the garden, allowing for a
> >good honest living, making a slave of no man.
>
> And now it's overlooking the paddy-field with the sunset rising on my
> back instead of setting.
>
> Poor Old Ned Ludd
> --------------------------
Strange as it may seem my computer has rapidly become my "loom" as the online
business expands, weaving information instead of yarn. Now if only the pub were a
little closer to the shop ;~))
Mike Wilcox
" Loves to Yarn Antiques"
Claude Boland
wrote:
> Know what you mean. I finally splashed out and bought a 17inch flat
> screen monitor. Alas not a digital TFT but just an old tech analogue.
>
> My poor old eyes aren't what they used to be, all this spinning golden
> threads is beginning to take its toll.
>
>
> Ronnie
> ======
Do you find ebay sells more furniture for you than your web page???
Claude Boland
Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> wrote:
I have tried the potassium permanganate stain on wood samples this week
with a couple coats of finish and like the color pretty good. Tonight I
put a coat of the stain on the inside of a jelly cupboard, that I am
making. The cupboard wood is #2 pine and the back AC plywood.
Because the stain is, basically water, it is real runny. On a vertical
surface it will run down to the bottom and leave a dark streak even
after you over coat it latter. The brush marks, if overlapped, are also
show up darker.
The stain is a purple color when you put it on, but changes to the
reddish brown color right away. It does not peneitrate immediately so
you have to brush it in a little. I might be interesting to see what it
does over a sanding sealer. You might have a little more control of the
runs and over laps.
Latter in the day I have sanded it a little and put a coat of
polyurethane. The color looks good but have made sort of a mess with the
over laps and runs. I will put a second coat of finish over it tomorrow
and see what it looks like. I may paint the inside of the cupboard yet.
One nice thing about it, the stain does not raise the grain very much.
Also when sanding it, the penetration seems to be really good. Better
than the oil stains. I did not sand through the stain into the white
wood which is important when I am rubbing through the finish paints that
I use to expose the brown wood tones under the paint. Most of the time I
go through the brown oil base wood stain and into the white wood. With
the mustard colored finish paints it does not looks so bad, but with the
black paint the white wood showing, looks bad.
So this is an interesting project. My customer did not show up on Sunday
but called and said she would be here tomorrow on Wen's. I am pretty
sure that she will take the black cupboard. I have also sold her one of
these pie safes a month ago. She keep it but wanted a darker reddish
brown color. So it will be interesting to see if this is the color she
wants. These interior decorators get pretty picky. However she has been
a good buyer, there are not to many of them around here. The tourists
will start showing up in another month or so.
Thanks for the response
Claude Boland
Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well she showed up and took the black chimney cupboard ok. I showed her
the potassium permanganate used as a wood stain. The brown was to brown.
She brought back the pie safe that I sold her for me to refinish, also
some wood stain the color that she likes. special mix. I tried her stain
on my wood and it was to light. I tried it on some pine and it was to
dark. I will have to make up my own stain and send her a sample on my
wood.
She also brought a couple large old wood creates with some nice
lettering on them. I am to make them into lamp tables. I put legs on
them and add a removable top. She sells the heck out of them for about
$150 to $200 dollars.
I do like the potassium permangate wood stain for a brown color. I can
use it on my ware marks on the painted furniture edges when I sand to
far. It penetrates good. One thing with my palm sander the potassium
permagate water based stain penetrates so good that it is picking up the
round sander marks that the oil base stain does not show.
The only other chemicals that I use is oxalic acid on the poplar wood.
It turns the green color to a reddish brown pine color. Also regular
house hold lye on new cherry. It will darken it to match the old cherry
look.
Well that about winds up my potassium permanganate stain bit.
Claude Boland
Boland <cbo...@mail.cablespeed.com> wrote:
Hi:
Update on the use of potassium permanganate. I have found that the
color and durability of potassium permanganate is good but I was
getting to many dark spots and runs. In talking to a cabinet maker who
uses it, he said to first wet down the wood before applying the
potassium permanganate. After letting the potassium permanganate it do
its thing, rinse it off with some more water. This seems like it may be
the answer. I will have to right off the pie safe that I put it on in
the interior or paint it. Think this will work tho.
cba...@gmail.com
> Has anyone used potassium permanganate for staining new #3 pine?
>
> I can not get the antique wood color that I am looking for with the
CF Martin Guitars Nazareth, PA USa uses potassium permanganate to darken their mahogany necks on their guitars
james...@gmail.com
> Has anyone used potassium permanganate for staining new #3 pine?
>
> I can not get the antique wood color that I am looking for with the
> Minwax stains.