Fakes or am I just paranoid?
John-Henry Collinson
In case they are called something different in the U.S. of A. I had
better explain that in Britain what we mean by a Vesta is a small box
usually made of metal, very often (hallmarked) silver for keeping non-
safety matches in. One edge will be roughened to strike a match on. They
are small enough to be kept in the pocket or handbag and are often
attractively decorated or even in an interesting shape such as a cricket
bat or a ladies leg(!). They are usually represented as dating from the
turn of the century. They are priced in the U.K. from ten pounds
sterling for a boring example upwards.
The problem is that I feel I am seeing too many of them. In Britain, for
the last five years, all one has to do is visit a junk shop, an antiques
shop or centre, a fair or even a market and everyone seems to have them.
I sell them myself and they always sell well. Unless, however, some
Edwardian politician promised instead of a chicken for every home, a
Vesta for every household I am seeing too many of them. Are they being
copied in some third world sweatshop? This is just a gut feeling and I
have no empirical evidence as to the numbers of Vesta Boxes on sale.
SOME OTHER (BETTER DOCUMENTED) FAKES, REPRODUCTIONS, AND COPIES
COMMONALLY PASSED OFF AS GENUINE.
1. Leica cameras. These are usually easy to spot. They are usually
Russian FED or Zorki cameras that have been re-engraved in Poland.
2. Toby Jugs, Staffordshire Dogs etc There are more of these passed off
as genuine 18th century/19th century than there are pieces of the true
cross. (See Geoffrey A. Godden "British Pottery and Porcelain 1780-1850"
published by A S Barnes and Co. New Jersey 1967 for a history of
faking/copying these from Victorian times to the nineteen sixties)
3. British Military Cap Badges. The British government sold off the
moulds to make these and they have been in production ever since.
Politely called 'restrikes' in the trade, they are responsible for
destroying Cap Badge collecting as a mass hobby.
4. Nazi Militaria. A conversation with two Militaria dealers gave me the
hair raising estimate that 95 per cent of all Nazi badges etc. on sale
as genuine, are in fact modern copies. I approve this. Anyone who wants
to fill a display cabinet with swastikas deserves all they get. (the
last statement is not an invitation to be flammed)
5. Horse Brasses. The nearest most horse brasses have been to a horse is
the McD***ld hamburger that the person who made it ate for lunch. (the
last statement is not an invitation to be sued but while we are at it -
Support the Mclibel two.)
6. Horn Gramophones (aka Horn Phonagraphs in the U.S. of A.) These use
the motors from portable suitcase models and the rest is usually made to
order from India.
I am sorry this posting is so ungrammatical but I have written it,
partially to fight insomnia in the early hours of the morning.
I am trying to start a thread here as I am given to understand against
all the evidence that this is a discussion group, so if anyone can add
to the list of common fakes please do so. If anyone can answer my
question about Vestas please do so. But to the newsgroup, not just by
email. Please :-)
--
John-Henry Collinson of John-Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves trading as Books,
Cameras, Collectables, St Mary's Antique Centre, St Mary's Church, St Mary's
Plain, Duke Street, Norwich, Norfolk, England. Open, Mon - Sat, 10 am - 4.30 pm.
Enquiries to bo...@jhenry.demon.co.uk
JBarklage
You're not paranoid! It's all being reproduced. In the US we have an
excellent monthly magazine of about 12 pages devoted to fakes, frauds, and
reproductions, with detailed photos of new and old items. All topics are
covered (including Vestas and Staffs figures). It's titled Antique &
Collectors Reproduction News. Subscription is $32/year in US; $41/year in
Canada; and $59/year foreign. I don't see how anyone, dealer or
collector, can be without it, if truly interested in identifying these
pieces. You can contact them at PO Box 12130, Des Moines IA, 50312-9403,
or phone 515-274-5886. (And no, I have no financial interest in this
publication! But it has saved me from being stung many times, and enabled
me to better serve my customers.)
It's titled Antique & Collectors Reproduction News. Subscription is
$32/year in US; $41/year in Canada; and $59/year foreign. I don't see how
anyone, dealer or collector, can be without it, if truly interested in
identifying these pieces. You can contact them at PO Box 12130, Des Moines
IA, 50312-9403, or phone 515-274-5886
JohnO202
John Henry-Collinson writes:
<<In case they are called something different in the U.S. of A. I had
better explain that in Britain what we mean by a Vesta is a small box
usually made of metal, very often (hallmarked) silver for keeping non-
safety matches in>>
Sir;
You are quite correct. We call them Vestas or matchsafes in the States
and they are relatively common. I have seen catalogues advertising sale
of reproduction items made after standard patterns of the bygone age. As
for your remarks on other items being faked today, I agree to all of it...
did not know about the Leica's but do now thanks to you and share your
friend's opinion about the WWII German things being largely bogus.
Please see my previous post regarding American Medal of Honor flumduggery
and I think you will see we're on the same track here...
Best to you,
John D.
ster...@antiquus.demon.co.uk
In article
<RrVViCAn9z2yEw
Q...@jhenry.demon.
co.uk>,
John-Henry
Collinson
You are absolutely
correct re the repro
vestas, they are
usually silver and
unless they have
been re cast from
old samples they
can be identified by
the hallmark. I
have only seen
silver fakes.
You ask for a list of
other current fakes,
well how long do
you want this
posting to be. In the
past few years I
have seen all of the
following come on
to the market.
Faberge enameled
pieces bearing the
marks of
workmasters incl.
Wigstrom.
Imported from the
middle east.
Fake walking sticks,
Pot Lids, Large
quanties of
Staffordshire
pottery.
Tortoiseshell, this is
a simple photo copy
of the pattern on
the back of a thin
plastic.
Sextants at £40 $65
each and in fact a
host of scientific
instruments.
Victorian and inlaid
Ewardian furniture,
imported from the
far east.
Most framed prints
on offer were
printed last week.
particularly the
high volume
sellers, birds, views
of London,
fashion etc.
Art Deco and
Nouveau figures,
lamps, vases. Claris
Cliff, Wedgwood
are now producing
a high quality range
of it.
Tiffany and Handel
lamps.
Newly engraved
drinking glasses
with Prince Charlie
emblems
Electroformed
silver photo frames
Chinese porcelain
by the ship load.
Stirrup cups and
most of these are
very good and
without care can
fool you.
Skeleton clocks,
these are simply
made from old
fusee movements
or from readily
available
kits.Vienna
regulators.
Carriage clocks incl
repeaters.
Emotionally the
worst that I have
seen have been fake
gallantry medals
from ww1 and ww2.
I get upset that
young men and
women gave their
lives for these
medals and rip off
merchants are
faking and selling
them.
This list could go on
for ever and the
worst part about it is
that these objects
are made to deceive
and dealers selling
them are doing just
that.
You can get all or
any at major
antique fairs such as
Newark in the UK,
in fact the
organisers of this
fair provide a large
special area for the
sale of new goods.
But unfortunately
the fake goods are
not confined to that
area. They are all
over. The only
thing that serious
collectors can do is
to boycott any dealer
that has any repro
items even if it is
just a small part of
his stock. Just refuse
to buy anything at
all from them. Get a
detailed receipt and
an enforcable
money back
guarantee. Regards
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Margaret Whittleton
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, John-Henry Collinson wrote:
<SNIP>>
> 2. Toby Jugs, Staffordshire Dogs etc There are more of these passed off
> as genuine 18th century/19th century than there are pieces of the true
> cross. (See Geoffrey A. Godden "British Pottery and Porcelain 1780-1850"
> published by A S Barnes and Co. New Jersey 1967 for a history of
> faking/copying these from Victorian times to the nineteen sixties)
>
John: Thanks for the info.
There are a couple of other good books around which have sections on
repros and fake. One is Victorian Staffordshire Figures. Not sure of the
author as I am posting from work and my copy is at home. He discusses
pieces which were made from the original molds which could be considered
repros, and out-and-out fakes.
About a year ago, I was looking at a pair of comforter dogs, priced
somewhat lower than I thought was right, but not exceptionally so. On
closer inspection I realized they were repros. When I told the seller (in
an antiques mall) this rather sharply, so she said, oh, yes - my mother
bought them just recently. It was obvious that if I had been less
knowlegable, she would never have mentioned the fact that they were
newish.
My Dad bought me a nice "Nest Robbers" (two boys stealing eggs). I never
could bring myself to tell him it was a repro. It looks nice and so I
have it on a shelf above the john. <G>
Several times I have passed items by, because I simply don't feel
qualified to always be sure of authenticity.
Marg W
Patricia V. Lehman
ster...@antiquus.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> This list could go on
> for ever and the
> worst part about it is
> that these objects
> are made to deceive
> and dealers selling
> them are doing just
> that.
To me the worst of it is that without seeing enough of the real thing to
be able to distinguish, we no longer know what the real thing is like.
Tish Lehman (p...@umich.edu)
Ronnie McKinley
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:13:13 -0500, "Patricia V. Lehman" <p...@umich.edu>
wrote:
>
>To me the worst of it is that without seeing enough of the real thing to
>be able to distinguish, we no longer know what the real thing is like.
>
That's so good - Tish.
____________________________________________________
Slan
ronnie
.........."if one could only teach the English how
to talk and the Irish how to listen, society would be
quite civilized".............
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/glenbourne/
____________________________________________________
John-Henry Collinson
I think it surprising that no one has addressed how come so much 'iffy
gear' is being offered by so many dealers. I do not believe it is
dishonesty but rather ignorance. On Thursday I sold a pair of attractive
blue patterned but modern earthenware asparagus servers to a dealer who
later told me she had decided after 'research' that they dated from the
turn of century (despite having the wrong kind of glaze, the wrong kind
of transfer pattern, no patina on the unglazed under-surface and most
damning the wrong mark). I asked her the nature of her research and it
appeared to consist of flicking through back numbers of Millers Price
Guide till she came across something similar. (I had by the way
represented these servers as modern.)
I am reminded, by this story, of a dealer who knowing my interest in
Victorian Photographica offered me what he called a Victorian Musical
Photo Album that he had 'picked up cheap' in an auction. (Victorian
Musical Photo Albums are the same as other Victorian Photo Albums except
that when you open the book a musical box plays. Because many of them
are crudely made they are very easy to fake) I opened the album and the
tune played "Lara's Theme" from the film Doctor Zhivago! A dead
giveaway I suggested to him that the item may not be authentic. Another
giveaway, I realize in retrospect, was that he had bought it cheap at
auction.
--
ster...@antiquus.demon.co.uk
>To me the worst of it is that without seeing enough of the real thing to be able to distinguish, we no longer know what the real thing is like.
The point you make is important and has always been a problem for
collectors. When it was only the work of the finest artists that was faked, the
great collectors, connoisseurs, dealers etc. studied the work and techniques
of the fakers with the same intensity as they researched their favourite
artists. Yet we know that even with all this scholorship, they still sometimes
got it wrong. Using the latest technology, many, many works have been
re-attributed to lesser artists or revealed as outright fakes.
But we have a different problem, now it isnt just the great works that are
being faked once, its collectors items that are being faked thousands of times.
Then distributed far and wide by dishonest dealers who slowly integrate it
into their normal stock. When you see twenty identical pairs of
Staffordshire dogs on a dealers display, you can think, gee this dealers been
lucky to find that many. Yea, so lucky in fact that I would ask him to pick my
lottery numbers. You could also check the price and find that they are so
cheap that you begin to think, Hey, its be kind to dogs week. But I suggest
that you like me, would_know_ that they are wrong, I simply dont get that
lucky.
No the real problem comes when the dealer slots one of these ringers into a
display of regular stock and at a regular price. If you are not aware that there
are fakes around and you are not able to pick them, you are in difficulty
because the dealer is using his standing to give the article credibility. We all
can be and I am sure most of us have been deceived at some time by this.
For some years I have been trying to protect myself from being duped by
carefully examining every new fake I see and examining every example that
I come across until I am at least as familiar with the spurious as I am with
the real thing. I think that collectors must start to become so knowledgable
about the fakes in their fields of interest, how they are manufactured, what
glazes are used, how the decoration is applied, what tools were used, paints
etc. so that when the genuine article does come to hand, your heart skips a
beat, you get the emotional buzz of a find, you my not know_exactly_what
it is, but you will have the absolute confidence to say this is not repro, this is
not a fake. If it was I_would_know and recognise it. This is special. It may
not be that Qianlong famille verte charger the you are seeking but you will
be able to say this is _not_20th century Beijing. Or I know this is a genuine
Remington it cant be anything else because I know everything about the
repros and this is_not_a repro. We have to reverse our normal thinking.
When you find a dealer who seeding his stock, keep going back to see what
he has got this time, examine it carefully so much so that you can recognise
it again. Never buy, just learn. It doesnt mean you will always win but it
certainly levels up the playing field. If a dealer who carries any repro calls
me over and says, I think I have got something you will like. I just say, not
while you are selling that stuff you havent.
Some time ago I overheard a dealer and a collector discussing another dealer
who had a great eye for quality, fine taste, knowledge and still couldnt resist
mixing in fakes and had, it seems, sold one to the collector. The dealer said, I
dont know why he does it, he is his own worst enemy. The collector said,
not while I am alive he isnt.
Regards and find treasure
Peter
Hcross88
When I first acquired my antique bell collection, I liked to look at bells
in antique shops. In one shop, I saw an attractive strap of sleigh bells.
It was beautiful. I asked the owner if the strap was authentic and he
said yes. However, these bells were shiney and the strap was new! When I
shook them they tinkled rather than having the rich mellow ring of an
authentic strap. That convinced me that it is buyer beware in antique
shops.
I have seen many reproductions of town cryer bells. They look good, but
there are no marks on the inner bell, which shows they have not been used
enough to be antiques. A true antique bell (brass) should have a worn mark
from the clapper along the edge of the inside of the bell.
At Ohio Village, they cast sleigh bells (from antique molds) and the
worker there told me that they sold far too many for soveniers. He
believed that dealers buried them to obtain the old patina and then sold
them as antiques!
Witney
Find a dealer you can trust and STICK with him/her.
--
Witney & Airault
20th Century Decorative Arts
Specialists in Art Deco Originals
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/witair
Patricia V. Lehman <p...@umich.edu> wrote in article
<32DE7D...@umich.edu>...
> ster...@antiquus.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > This list could go on
> > for ever and the
> > worst part about it is
> > that these objects
> > are made to deceive
> > and dealers selling
> > them are doing just
> > that.
>
> To me the worst of it is that without seeing enough of the real thing to
> be able to distinguish, we no longer know what the real thing is like.
>
> Tish Lehman (p...@umich.edu)
>
Mark Tanner
John-Henry Collinson <jhe...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I am reminded, by this story, of a dealer who knowing my interest in
>Victorian Photographica offered me what he called a Victorian Musical
>Photo Album that he had 'picked up cheap' in an auction. (Victorian
>Musical Photo Albums are the same as other Victorian Photo Albums except
>that when you open the book a musical box plays. Because many of them
>are crudely made they are very easy to fake) I opened the album and the
>tune played "Lara's Theme" from the film Doctor Zhivago! A dead
>giveaway I suggested to him that the item may not be authentic. Another
>giveaway, I realize in retrospect, was that he had bought it cheap at
>auction.
Of course, Lara's theme isn't exactly new. If I remember correctly,
that theme was written by Mozart or Beethoven, only becoming known as
Lara's theme with the advent of the movie. Not quite the dead giveaway
you suggest!
-mark
Mark Tanner (cel...@ibm.net)
http://cellist.music.ufl.edu
Charleen Bunjiovianna
In article <32e53ec7...@usenet.nerdc.ufl.edu>,
Mark Tanner <cel...@ibm.net> wrote:
>John-Henry Collinson <jhe...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Because many of them
>>are crudely made they are very easy to fake) I opened the album and the
>>tune played "Lara's Theme" from the film Doctor Zhivago! A dead
>>giveaway I suggested to him that the item may not be authentic. Another
>>giveaway, I realize in retrospect, was that he had bought it cheap at
>>auction.
>
>Of course, Lara's theme isn't exactly new. If I remember correctly,
>that theme was written by Mozart or Beethoven, only becoming known as
>Lara's theme with the advent of the movie. Not quite the dead giveaway
>you suggest!
Mark, you might be thinking of the famous theme from the film
_Elvira Madigan_, which is the second movement of Mozart's Piano
Concerto No. 21.
_Lara's Theme_ is an original piece of music written for the film by Maurice
Jarre. He received an Oscar for his _Dr. Zhivago_ score in 1965.
Charleen
(film score buff whose current favorite is _The English Patient_ score
by Gabriel Yared)
John-Henry Collinson
>John-Henry Collinson <jhe...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I am reminded, by this story, of a dealer who knowing my interest in
>>Victorian Photographica offered me what he called a Victorian Musical
>>Photo Album that he had 'picked up cheap' in an auction. (Victorian
>>Musical Photo Albums are the same as other Victorian Photo Albums except
>>are crudely made they are very easy to fake) I opened the album and the
>>tune played "Lara's Theme" from the film Doctor Zhivago! A dead
>>giveaway I suggested to him that the item may not be authentic. Another
>>giveaway, I realize in retrospect, was that he had bought it cheap at
>>auction.
>
>Of course, Lara's theme isn't exactly new. If I remember correctly,
>that theme was written by Mozart or Beethoven, only becoming known as
>Lara's theme with the advent of the movie. Not quite the dead giveaway
>you suggest!
>
Please try playing the original short theme on your cello and then
Maurice Jarre's rather sugary parody of it written for the film. I think
you will notice the difference.
Also (and I admit I had not mentioned this in my original posting) my
memory tells me that the musical box was trying to imitate the vibrato
(is this the right word?) of the balalaika. There were, of course, other
indications that the photo album was not the right thing.
My main point was and remains, that the large majority of general
antique dealers are not dishonest but ignorant.
All the best and Pip! Pip!