What finishes used on Atwater Kent (Big Box 20, etc.) ?
David Forsyth
I am wondering if anyone knows the exact finishes used on the 1920's Atwater
Kent radio cases, such as on the Model 20. I am having a custom box made
for me out of walnut to house a radio set I am building from scratch. I
want the finish to resemble that of a "Big Box" Model 20 that I have. I
looked at some samples of the same walnut we're making the case from with a
cherry stain on it, and it looks ok but the Atwater seems to have a deeper
reddish tone and a lot more lustre to it. I was told that in the old days
they finished with varnish and that varnish isn't available anymore. Also I
was told that varnish tended to darken with age and that the original finish
of the radio might have been somewhat lighter when new. I know a lot more
about electronics that I do about wood working, so if someone can help me
out here it would be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
Dave
fod...@ncx.com
Hagstar
>
> I was told that in the old days
> they finished with varnish and that varnish isn't available anymore.
Varnish is still widely available, but most certainly would NOT have
been used on your radio case. Shellac was used in the very early days,
but it is almost certain your radio was and should be finished in
nitrocellulose lacquer. Stain was almost never used either- tinted
lacquers called toners were used instead. But toner might not be
essential for a radio case built from scratch out of all quality wood.
Tone variations produced by different stain absorption rates (created by
cheaper woods used as trim by many companies) are eliminated by toners,
which just sit on top of the wood.
Find a local finisher who works with nitro lacquer a lot, and feels
comfortable with it. It is still the finish of choice for really fine
furniture- nothing else looks right really, everything newer and all
varnishes are far inferior. If a prospective finisher hems and haws
about "they don't make that/ no one uses that" find someone else.
Please be sure to post pictures of this project when you are done- it
sounds fascinating!
John H.
David Forsyth
Thank you so much for your informative response. However, it may already be
too late to take advantage of your information. After seeing the cherry
stain applied to the sample piece, I decided to go ahead with that on the
case, thinking all that was needed afterward would be the appropriate top
coat. (Again, I know very little of work working/finishing). From what you
have posted, it seems that the deep reddish hue in the original case would
have been created by applying a red toner added to nitrocellulose laquer and
applied as one sprayed-on coat. This leads to three other questions: If I
find some of the proper formulation of laquer, will applying it over top of
the already applied cherry stain work out acceptably? Also, in future,
where would I find "toner"? I've never heard of that per se (I'm assuming
it's not the same thing as wood "stain"). Finally, in order to do the whole
thing properly as it would have been orignally done, would the
nitrocellulose laquer/toner mixture need to be applied with a spray gun, or
could it be brushed on with similar results?
Thanks again for all of your very helpfull information!
Dave Forsyth
fod...@ncx.com
"Hagstar" <yo...@att.net> wrote in message news:403754EA...@att.net...
Uncle Peter
"David Forsyth" <fod...@ncx.com> wrote in message
news:103eqdq...@corp.supernews.com...
There are often several ways to achieve the same results. Some
restorers use stain with good results.. If you used an oil based
stain, you might want to make sure it has dried sufficiently before
applying lacquer over it. The other choice is to apply a shellac
sealer coat which will insure compatibility between the different
finishes.
You can buy spray cans of clear (gloss, satin, etc.) lacquer from
woodworking supply houses; and they will also carry lacquer toner
in spray cans. For a small set, I'd go with the individual spray
cans. If you will be doing more sets on a regular basis, then the
spray gun setup might become more economical.
Brushable Deft lacquer is carried by many hardware stores.
After the first coat applying subsequent coats become
problamatic because the lacquer softens the bottom layer;
and it also has a very fast setup time.
Pete
Hagstar
>
>
> Thank you so much for your informative response. However, it may already be
> too late to take advantage of your information.
I also said you're probably okay with stain as you likely didn't use any
inferior woods in trimming out the cabinet. If you did and these areas
are too light, you could benefit from masking off and tonering just
these areas. Http://www.tubesandmore.com among other places has good
lacquers and toners in spray cans. Yes, it really does have to be
sprayed- it can be brushed but it's hard to get enough "build" or film
thickness that way. Also, it would be authentic to totally fill the
pores- this isn't done much anymore but was always done on old radios
and most old furniture. This is a separate step usually with a paste
grain filler pushed into the grain and allowed to set (generally 30 mins
or so), and then leveled off with a wide putty knife, then carefully
cleaned up with burlap wiping across the grain. After overnight drying
this is sanded with 320 grit and then lacquered.
I find one can't easily apply filler over stain, though, so you might
want to simply spray on several coats of lacquer and sand them nearly
off with 320 grit paper (NOT steel wool). If you do this a few times
you'll fill the pores with lacquer and accomplish the same pore filling
as paste grain filler does, with a bit more effort though.
Toner can be used over stain with good effect if you wish.
On http://www.antiqueradios.com you'll find some articles on creating a
good lacquer finish. For about $200- you can get set up with a hobby
spray system. I've done consoles with spray cans, though, you'll just
need six or seven. Locally you can likely find a decent spray can clear
lacquer (check carefully it's really lacquer though) for cheap enough. A
rubdown with #0000 steel wool (followed with white Scotchbrite if
desired for a higher gloss) lubed with mineral spirits will dull the
gloss of the cheaper lacquer if all you can find is gloss. Old radios
were more like what today is sold as "satin" finish. Some say when
produced radios were really glossy, and that time has dulled them- all I
can can say is that that usually looks cheap and wrong in a refinishing
job.
Good luck- remember there's more than one successful way to get a nice
soft gloss piano finish. Experiment till you find what works- lacquer
can be easily stripped with thinner if fresh and you can start anew.
John H.
- - Bill - -
I love these type of threads because there are so many opinions and
options to be offered.
If you are really dedicated to accurately match colors I'd say forget it
unless you want to refinish the original cabinet with the same
toners/stain and even then it would be a matter of guesswork and hope
and what the light is like when you look at it.
One thing that has not been emphasized is don't even bother to think
about brushing toned lacquer unless you are a real pro. Thats where
stain has an advantage in this situation but at the same time staining
wood is a one shot try and isn't always easily reversible.
If it were me, I'd shoot for the same 'look' even if one were colored
differently than the other. This is quite the norm for oddball pieces
of old radio sets and isn't as hodgepodge as one might think. There's
no 'hiding' a new creation to good eyes so maybe the mentality might be
better focused towards making a nice re-creation rather than hosing up
the whole idea attempting for the closest match.
-BM
Hagstar
>
> If you used an oil based
> stain, you might want to make sure it has dried sufficiently before
> applying lacquer over it. The other choice is to apply a shellac
> sealer coat which will insure compatibility between the different
> finishes.
These are actually quite happy together- one can spray lacquer directly
over wet oil stain. I tried this and it seemed to work (on the advice of
a book that said this was sometimes done in production lines IIRC)
though I always wait overnight in actual practice. But after all Ken G.
mixes the oil stain right in the lacquer.
John H.
Hagstar
>
>
>
> I find one can't easily apply filler over stain, though
I should have explained this is because you have to sand the filler to
remove the excess, and I too often sand through the stain creating
unfixable light spots. If you work really carefully and are experienced
with the filler, you can remove nearly all of it while still wet. But
I'm still not that good and the excess must be sanded off with some
pressure. SO, I just stain after filling, and then add toner on top of
that, and finally clear lacquer to protect it.
I also forgot to mention one gets a better finish by building the
thickness with mostly gloss lacquer and reducing the gloss by rubbing
(i.e. with steel wool #0000) or with just a couple of coats of satin
lacquer at the end. Satin lacquer is cloudy in thick films, but fine for
a couple of finishing coats. If the layers of gloss are good and dry (a
couple days is best) the final satin coats will provide a final nearly
rubbed down appearing finish.
John H.
- - Bill - -
>
>
> These are actually quite happy together- one can spray lacquer directly
> over wet oil stain. I tried this and it seemed to work (on the advice of
> a book that said this was sometimes done in production lines IIRC)
> though I always wait overnight in actual practice. But after all Ken G.
> mixes the oil stain right in the lacquer.
>
> John H.
What is "these"?
You pretty much have to single out particular brand names nowadays since
there are so many options. Just to make a point, Ken G always professed
"just use Goof-Off" for chassis cleaning. Well, I went into a big Lowes
mega type of place in Elyria, OH and was met with six feet and three
shelves of various 'flavors' of Goof-Off. Green, Gold, Blue, New, New
Improved, New Improved Green, etc.
Some are detergents, some are acids. Take your pick.
Adding stain to lacquer. Two things come into play...is the carrier
compatible? usually yes, not by chemistry but by practical application
if you spray...sufficient drying is key. Secondly, is the 'stain' dye
based or pigment (solids) based? If you do this one or two times you
immediately recognize the difference. Pigment (solids) stains mixed
with lacquer come out looking like pigment solids dissolved in lacquer.
Murky. I don't know how to explain it but if you know the difference
between black paint and India ink you'll get the idea.
-BM