Phono FAQ Repost for April
George Conklin
Rec.antiques.radio+phono Frequently Asked Questions
for Phonographs
Availability of this information:
* The FAQs are posted monthly in the newsgroup
rec.antiques.radio+phono
* The FAQs can be downloaded from the Web at this URL:
http://www.pagesz.net/~henryj/phono.htm
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Revision history of this part of the FAQ, originally part of
the combined Radio+Phono FAQ.
Version Date Notes
1.0 Oct. 20, 94 First version: material was supplied by
George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu).
1.1 Dec. 12, 94 Revisions by George Conklin.
2.0 May 3,1995 This material was supplied by
George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu).
3.0 March 12, 1996. Third Version. This material was
supplied by George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu).
4.0 Dec. 11, 1997 Joined the two separate FAQ versions on
Phonographs.
5.0 Feb. 24, 1998 Fourth Version by George Conklin.
5.1 July 22, 1998 Fourth Version with address
updates.
6.0 April 20, 1999 Fifth Version by George Conklin
6.1 Sept. 25, 1999 Fifth Version updates and Posted Separately
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Editor: George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu)
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The most frequently asked question continues
to be from the very first day of the group: "Where can I buy
steel needles for my Victrola?" Answer: Contact the Antique
Phonograph Supply Company, Route 23, Box 123, Davenport
Center, NY 13751. Phone 607-278-6218. WWW.antiquephono.com.
Remember to change your needles after every play.
The engineering concept was simple:
the needles are softer than the record, and will wear without
stressing the record. Some records had grit in the mix to
wear the steel needle.
Section 1.1: Technical Questions about Phonographs.
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Q1: My phonograph does not work. What can I do?
Answer: There is one excellent book which explains how old
phonographs, gramophones and cylinder players work.
"The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss. It is
also available from APSCO listed above. It explains how
to work on a phonograph to get it running again. It contains
detailed photographs. Be sure to buy the Third Edition
since it contains updated price lists and a good discussion
of fake phonographs.
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Q2: I have just found this wonderful windup phonograph.
How can I tell if it works? I don't have time to read a book.
What can I do? (Is it REAL? See Q3 below).
Answer: Phonographs are found which look new. Others look as if
they have been sitting in a wet basement for 70 years. But there are
a few quick tests:
1. Does the dealer demonstrate the unit? If it plays and sounds
fine, it probably is in good shape. It is relatively hard to hide
problems with spring motors.
2. Is the spring broken? This means that your turn the crank and
nothing happens. Usually the spring is broken near the center,
so the phonograph does not play. New springs can be found for
most phonographs from the Antique Phonograph Supply Company.
Cost: about $50 if you send in the barrel. If a new spring is not
available, you can patch the old one by following instructions in
the Reiss book listed below. But please note that you may not
want to do this without some experience since you can cut your
fingers off.
3. If the turntable rotates (or the cylinder turns), but you hear
a loud bump while the record is playing, then the spring needs
grease.
a. This is not easy. Purists will say to take the spring out
of the barrel, clean it and the reload the barrel. Warning: if
you try to do this, you can cut your fingers off. The barrel
is a cylinder into which the spring is wound. Some cheaper
units simply have an open spring. Greasing such a spring is
much more easy.
b. Shortcut: You can add grease to the spring without first taking
it out of the barrel. Most barrels had an opening called a
graphite hole. Wind up the unit all the way. Take the plug out
of the graphite hole and force in grease. The original Edison
formula, which I have used, contains 10 parts vasoline to 1
part graphite. Put the screw back in the hole. Let the unit
run down, dispersing the grease.
4. Listen to see if the governor is in good shape. When you play the
unit, is there a high speed vibration. If so, you may need
work on the governor. This is difficult.
5. If the turntable works (or the cylinder turns), then play a
record. What does it sound like? If you hear a lot of
vibrations, or if the sound is bad, you probably need to rebuild
the reproducer.
a. Rebuilding an Edison reproducer for a cylinder phonograph is
ususally an easy job. Kits cost $6.00. A new sapphire is $30.00
and is likely to outlast you.
b. Rebuilding a Victor #2 (the most common) is not difficult either.
c. Rebuilding a Diamond Disc reproducer is more difficult. The old
diaphragms take effort to remove without damage. It can be
done. Kits are available. New diamond needles: $60.00. But
the old diamond may be in good shape.
d. Rebuilding the Victor Orthophonic is very difficult and few people
will touch this one. Such reproducers (heads) cost about $100 in
auctions. Many were made of pot metal, and they are gradually
falling apart.
e. Rebuilding other heads requires buying generic parts and doing
the best you can.
6. Ok, I don't know much about mechanical things. What can I do?
You can send the entire works off for repair and cleaning. This
costs about $150 for an Edison unit.
7. What about parts? What if something wears out?
If you buy an Edison or a Victor, most motor parts are still
available. As for the other units around, if something other than
the spring is broken, you might want to look for a different unit
unless you are handy around a machine shop, or are willing to
pay to send the entire motor out for repair.
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Q3: The dealer offered me a nice external horn machine. Is
it a fake or a reproduction? Is it as old as he says it is?
The catalog says the phonograph is 'remanufactured.' What
does this mean?
Answer: Since external horn machines command a big price,
operators in South Asia has begun taking old motors and
remanufacturing cases to make 'new' old phonographs. These
phonographs are often excellent in appearance, and come with
marvelous reproduction brass horns and often with good
reproducers too. But their weakness is often the motor,
which is from an old portable phonograph, or even a
reproduction too. The horns are pretty, and may be the
case. If it works, a fair price would be $250-300, if you
are so inclined. But be careful, because the tone arms are
usually weak, and the brackets which hold the horn to back
support are usually thin sheet brass, totally useless.
Recently in the United States some mass catalogs which sell
'discontinued' products have started adding reproduction
phonographs to their catalogs. They state they are
'remanufactured' using old and new parts, including new
horns. The price asked is $399, plus a huge shipping charge
of about $45. Do not even be tempted unless you just want
something for interior decoration. One important clue to a
fake old phonograph is the reproducer---where the needle
goes. If it is covered with a piece of metal, it is
probably new. Old horn machines used mica which is
transparent and not covered. Eric Reiss also has a section
to how to spot fake phonographs.
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Q4: E-bay lists an old cylinder player. Should I bid on
it?
Answer: E-bay is not a place for a beginner. When Edison
players first hit E-bay, the prices were not only high
retail, they were retail + 50 to 75%. After a half dozen or
so common machines were sold, prices declined to average
retail. I purchased one at below retail and it was only
fair, although the seller thought it was great. Despite the
price, I would never have looked at a second machine had I
seen it. Digital color pictures make anything look good.
E-bay is a seller's market, but a rough road for a buyer. I
use E-bay, but be very, very careful. If you are reading
this FAQ as a beginner, then buy your machines from
somewhere you can trust locally. For a beginner I would
recommend the first machine to be an Edison Standard or
Edison Home. Get a machine which plays both 2 and 4-minute
cylinders, and a horn which is pleasing to your wife. For
playing 78s, start with a Victor internal horn machine and
move back to the external horn machines as you save up your
money. Prices are headed up for Victor and Edison machines
so the 'book value' you see in the guides is just a starting
point. Even well-known dealers are raising their prices
blaming the Internet auctions.
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Q5: I just found some 'thick' records. How can I play them?
Answer: Many people think that the standard
78 record is 'thick.' However, the really thick records
were made by Thomas Edison and are called Diamond Discs.
They were made from 1912 until Edison closed his phonograph
business in 1929, one day before the stock market crashed.
In their time, these were the premium records. Do NOT
try to play a diamond disc record with a Victrola steel
needle machine. It will ruin the record and it will not
play. The DDs were recorded vertically, using the hill and
dale method. They were played with a special diamond needle.
You can play such records today at 78 rpm on with a stereo
catridge using either the LP needle or a 78 (3 mil) needle.
Or, better yet, such records still work fine with an
Edison machine. A good DD machine should not cost over $400
in the USA. Specialized models may be more.
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Q6: I just found a "Victrola." What is it worth?
Answer: Most people use the word 'Victrola' as a generic
term, like Frigidaire is used to mean all types of ice box.
Most likely such a term means an upright machine made during
the 1920s and housed in a 'brown box.' Since millions were
made, it is impossible to give a specific value. However,
most upright Victors go for about $400 right now.
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Q7: Where can I read about my Victrola? Answer:
Buy the book "Look for the Dog" by Robert Baumbach. It
lists all Victor models, starting with the open horn machines.
Some were quite rare; most very common. Production
figures are given. Buy the book from Allen Koenigsberg,
502 E. 17th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11226. Phone 718-941-6835.
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Q8: Where can I find out about record auctions? Parts?
Supplies for old phonographs? Answer: Join MAPS, the Michigan
Antique Phonograph Society, 60 Central Street, Battle Creek,
MI 49017. After you join, purchase the Resource
Directory. It lists hundreds of dealers and places
to buy records and get your phonograph serviced.
It also lists other clubs.
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Q9: I want to buy an Edison Standard. Can you name some
dealers in my area?
Answer: Generally the answer to this question is unfortunately 'no.'
The market for used phonographs remains fragmented. In certain
areas there are well-known dealers. But you are not going to
find one listed in every city. Antique malls often sell machines
that are offered to them. Prices can be high. As for
buying on-line, please look above the my comments on E-bay.
Prices of Victor or Edison machines seem to be going up rather
quickly.
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Q10: I just found a phonograph. I can't remember the name.
Who made old phonographs anyway?
Answer: The phonograph was invented by Thomas Edison. He let it
sit on the shelf for 10 years. His patents covered cylinder
records, the original format. Later Berliner obtained a patent
for what we call today the 78. Its virtue was that the 78 could
be mass produced easily. Victor took up the Berliner patent.
Edison stayed with cylinder records. By 1920 it seems as if every
urniture store would put together a case and generic works and a new
brand was born. Sometimes Edison would sell spare cases so
conversion companies would put together parts from different
sources even in well-known cases. Some common brands:
Edison, Victor, Sonora, Brunswick, Silvertone, Zonophone,
Aeolian, Pathe, Granby, Columbia, Vocalian, Harmonola,
Heinman and others.
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Q11: Where can I learn about the history of the
phonograph?
Answer: write to Allen Koenigsberg, 502 E. 17th Street,
Brooklyn, NY 11226. Request a collectors check list.
Most important books can be purchased through him. The
most scholarly is "From Tinfoil to Stereo, 1877-1929" by
Welch and Burt. Unfortunately, the authors concentrate on
the legal fights faced by early phonograph producers, and not
the technological problems the had to overcome to bring talking
machines to market successfully. "The Talking Machine: An
Illustrated Compendium 1877-1929" by Tim Fabrizio and George
Paul is the best book for those interested not only in a
brief history of the talking machine, but also in numerous
pictures of both common and rare early machines. Coverage
of cabinet models made after 1920 is more limited. However,
the book is a masterpiece. Fabrizio and Paul have also
published a book (1999) "Antique Phonographs: Gadgets,
Gizmos and Gimmicks." It is a collection of beautiful color
pictures of cabinets, horns and attachments for phonographs.
I highly recommend it.
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Q12: What is a gramophone?
Answer: The British refer to a phonograph which plays flat records
as a gramophone. In British usage, a phonograph plays cylinders only.
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Q13: I just found an Edison cylinder player.
Where can I find out about how it works?
Answer: There is one authority on Edison players, both cylinder
and the Diamond Disc (DD) type. His name is George
Frow. He wrote two books which define the field.
The book on cylinder phonographs is now available
in a Second Printing 150th Anniversary Edition of "Edison Cylinder
Phonograph Companion," Available from
several sources, but I have a listing from Koenigsberg
listed above. Avoid the first printing (1994) since the
pictures are less clear than in the second 1997 printing,
and the new edition contains additional information.
The second book covers Edison Diamond Disc machines.
"Edison Diamond Disc Phonographs, 1912-1929." Frow
covers all models, including some which may have never
been made! His research comes from the Edison historical
site in Orange, NJ. Source: write Frow himself at
George Frow, 48 Woodfields, Chipstead, SEVENOAKS,
TN13 2RB, Great Britain. (This is a new 1997 address).
He airmails the book, with no delay.
Check for current price. He took my personal check.
Also available from Koenigsberg listed above.
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Q14: Where can I find a list of cylinders which were made?
Answer: Wax cylinders made up until by Edison 1912 are covered
in a book written by Alan Koenigsberg, 502 E.
17th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11226. There are several listings
of Edison's celluloid Blue Amberol cylinders, but all seem
to be out of print at the moment.
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Q15: Are there any magazines which discuss old phonographs?
Answer: Not really, in the traditional sense of the word
magazine. Collecting phonographs is really a hobby and
publications come and go. The Michigan Antique Phonograph
Society has a newsletter called "In the Groove." It is
probably the best source of information right now, with the
additional of several regular authors to the masthead.
The City of London Phonograph Society (CLPGS) seems to have
undergone some kind of internal revolution in the past year.
However, their semi-annual magazine "Hillandale News" is
still of interest. WWW sites, e-mail and other modern modes
of communication have ceased from CLPGS. The membership
secretary is now Suzanne Lewis, 51 Brockhurst Road, CHESHAM,
Bucks, HP5 1LG, England. Current rates to join are $28.50
(USA $).
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Q16: What are the most common old phonographs?
Answer: The phonographs which have survived today
are Edison, Victor and Columbia. Of the three, Edison
was the most sturdy, although Victor was often well made
also. The Columbia units used more pot metal, which
decays with age. Their reproducers were never up to Edison
standards.
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Q17: Are all phonograph cyliders the same?
Answer: Not all phonograph cylinders are the same. The cylinder
was the original format for recording. The most commonly found
ones today are Edison's black wax (Gold Moulded) cylinders.
These play for 2 minutes. Columbia made 2-minute cylinders
wax cylinders until 1902, then switched to making their
cylinders out of celluloid. The celluloid cylinders are often
found today in excellent condition compared to their wax
counterparts.
Later everyone switched to 4-minute cylinders. Edison
always offered kits to upgrade his players. The
4-minute cylinders turned at 160RPM (as did most 2-minute
cylinders) and had 200 grooves per inch.
Edison produced 4-minute wax cylinders and later 4-minute
blue celluloid cylinders. The blue cylinders (called Blue
Amberols) were launched in 1912 and were made until 1929,
long after everyone else quit making them.
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Q18: I have just found a phonograph in a brown case. When
as it made?
Answer: If the phonograph has a large external horn, it was made
before about 1912. After that, the ladies wanted horns inside
a case, hidden from view. If the unit you are looking at has
an enclosed soundbox in a pice of furniture, it was made
from 1910 or so up until the end of the wind up era about
1930. Not many phonographs were made from 1929-1945. The
depression caused a collapse of sales, with one authority
claiming that record sales declined by 90% during the 1930s.
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Q19: What is the difference between Victor and Victrola?
Answer: The Victor Talking Mahince Company
made external horn phonographs. When they switched to
horns inside of the case, the name -ola was added. Victrola
technically means an internal horn machine. Edison did the
same thing. He called his internal horn cylinder machines
Amberolas.
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Q20: I have some 78s I got from my family. I am afraid of
hurting them with a diamond needle. How can I play such records?
Answer: You can play 78s with a modern phonograph using a diamond
needle. If you have only a stereo stylus, you can still use it
to play your 78s without hurting them. Of course, it is best to
use about a 3 mil needle made for the purpose. Modern equipment,
tracking at 2 grams, is quite gentle on records compared to the old
Victors, tracking at several ounces.
Section 1.2: References and Sources.
------------------------------------
Books about phonographs are written mostly by hobbyists,
not engineers or academics. Below is a listing of common
sources to get you going in the hobby.
1. "The Compleat Talking Machine, Third Edition" by Eric L. Reiss
is the most important book for a beginner. It lists not only
many models, but it tells how to oil a machine and how to make
most repairs. Order from: The Antique Phonograph Supply
Company, Route 23, Box 123, Davenport Center, NY 13751-0123.
(607) 278-6218. Order this book first. There is a section
on the value of old machines, and numerous pictures to help
the beginner identify old machines. Try
WWW.antiquephono.com.
2. "The Talking Machine: An Illustrated Compendium
1977-1929" by Tim Fabrizio and George F. Paul is a marvelous
book with hundreds of fine phonographs of rare, early
machines as well as the more common models a beginner might
find. According to the book, it may be ordered from
Schif...@aol.com. The 1999 Fabrizio and Paul book
"Antique Phonograph Gadgets, Gizmos and Gimmicks" is also
highly recommended if you are interested in phonograph
accessories.
3. For books about Edison machines, George Frow has written
the "bibles." For cylinder machines, order "Edison Cylinder
Phonograph Companion." It was newly revised in 1997 and
contains about all you can possibly want to know about the
various models. Note: it does not discuss prices. Earlier
editions of this book are found only in rare book rooms of
a few libraries. The only drawback to this book are the
photographs, which are small and dark. The second book
by Frow covers diamond disc phonographs by Edison (the
'thick' records players): "The Edison Disc Phonographs
and the Diamond Discs: A history with Illustrations),
1982. APSCO sells both. You may also contact
George Frow, 48 Woodfields, Chipstead,
Sevenoaks, Kent TN13 2RB, Great Britain. This is a new
address for Mr. Frow.
4. For Victor machines, there is also one book everyone
uses called "Look for the Dog" by Robert Baumbach. A
new paperback edition is out. The illustrations are good,
but the discussion is more limited than what is found in
Frow's books on Edison. APSO sells this book too.
5. The main 'general' book on phonographs
is called "From Tinfoil to Stereo: The Acoustic Years
of the Recording Industry 1877-1929" by Walter L.
Welch and Leah Brodbeck Stenzel Burt, University
of Flordia Press, 1994. Yes, it is somewhat
scholarly and does contain some errors, as do many
of the books about phonographs. Some reviewers
found dozens of errors. Unfortunately since phonograph
collecting a hobby, good referees are few and
errors and myths are common.
6. Magazines about phonographs are few and far
between. However, I recommend the following for
the beginner in the hobby because they are readily
available, appear regularly and are nicely done:
A. "In the Groove," a monthly newsletter published by
the Michigan Antique Phonograph Society. Contact
MAPS at 60 Central Street, Battle Creek, Michigan, 49017.
If you are looking for parts, this is the place to start.
They publish resource guide and membership
directory which lists about 800 phonograph
collectors and about every known organization
dealing with phonographs and parts in the
world. This is the document to get if
you want to buy parts or look for local
dealers.
B. "Hillandale News" published by the City of London
Phonograph and Gramophone Society. This is a nicely
produced magazine. It comes out now only semi-annually and
CLPGS has recently discontinued its WWW site and e-mail,
suggesting problems. Contact Suzanne Lewis, 51 Brockhurst
Road, CHESHAM, Bucks, HP5 1LG, England. Current dues in US
dollars are $28.50.
C. I am sad to have to report that the journal "Victrola and
78 Journal" has ceased publication. However, 13 issues are
still available and they are a valuable source of
information. Purchase of the back issues in a package is
highly recommended. Contact Tim Gracyk, 9180 Joy Lane,
Granite Bay, CA 95746-9682 or tgr...@garlic.com.
6. As for places to get repairs done,
some members of this news group recommend you
contact Dwayne Wyatt of Wyatt's Music
World, PO Box 601, Lakeport, CA 707 263-5013.
The catalog lists all the parts for various Edison
cylider and Amberola phonographs, with a price for
each and every screw, gear and so forth. Columbia
Grafanola, Models AT, AZ, and Q and some Victors and
Brunswicks are also listed. He sells reproduction
Cygnet Horns. Also, APSO (www.antiquephono.com)
does compete overhauls of old phonographs and
supplies parts.
The above sources are enough to get you started.
They are not a complete listing of very book about
Victors or Thomas Edison. They are, however,
the most important pieces of information and
enough to answer many (if not all) questions.
For the most new information possible, get the
resource guide from MAPS.
Now, what about the Web? In the past several years there
has been an explosion of pictures of old phonographs on the
WWW. What can a beginner expect?
Please remember the a FAQ is designed to answer frequently
asked questions in an interactive discussion group. In
contrast, the WWW is a series of pages developed by those
with a special interest in the phonograph, commercial and
otherwise. The WWW is totally unrefereed, meaning that
anyone can post information. Most information on web pages
is accurate, but not all. Some is designed to sell
phonographs, while others are interested in keeping the
hobby alive. Having stated that you need to be aware of its
limitations, the WWW does provide interesting surfing for
beginners. Most WWW sites end up being referenced by each
other. My personal opinion that the best single place to
start surfing the web for a beginner is at
http://www.tinfoil.com.
I have received information that postings on
rec.antiques.radio+phono are archived:
An archive for this newsgroup is located at the University of North
Carolina, formerly Sunsite, now Metalab, in the Agronomy partition
maintained by Steve Modena AB4EL..
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/agronomy/ham/RADIO+PHONO/
Archives are available from the beginning of 1998, in text files
containing several days' worth of posts. This is much more convenient
for browsing than retrieving posts one at a time by DejaNews. Older
archives going back to the newsgroup creation in 1994 used to be on
the server but now apparently you have to ask AB4EL for them (address
given in the archive).
If you have some time to spare, reading the old posts can be fun as well
as instructive. There was more technical discussion in those days, and
much of it is just as relevant now. There was even quite a lot of
discussion on, of all things, phonographs, before those collectors
got outnumbered and gave up.
The archive gets updated every six or seven days now.
George H. Conklin, geo...@nccu.edu
--
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