What is ART DECO??
CommQuart
I have seen quite a bit of chatter concerning ART DECO radios
on the newsgroup, and whether the term is being abused or not.
I must admit to running to my trusty Funk and Wagnels, only to
be dissappointed by the explanation given.
Alas, I must confess to being part of the great unwashed masses,
and humbly beg for a reasonable definition of what constitutes true
Art Deco styling from my peers, specifically relating to vintage radios.
One particular question: can a modern radio depict Art Deco styling
and still be called an example of "art deco"?
I know that the Radio Shack knockoffs of vintage radios are not true
"antiques", but wonder if the same rules apply to whatever real
art deco is...
(To the many others wondering the
samething, who are sitting back letting me look stupid first.
Shame on you!)
Peter
Pgonshor
I have done the very same thing Peter did; look it up in the dictionary and
been dissapointed at the definition. I'm glad Peter had the stupi.., er,
courage to come forth and state there is no clear definition out there. If
there are art deco experts out there, they are not telling us what the term
means. I'm not referring to people like me who "think" they know and it should
therefore be obvious to anyone. Marty Bunis thinks he knows, because many of
the radios in his book are labeled deco. Maybe he does know. I tend to
believe that almost no radios called deco truely are art deco.
Dave
John
CommQuart wrote:
>
> I have seen quite a bit of chatter concerning ART DECO radios
> on the newsgroup, and whether the term is being abused or not.
> I must admit to running to my trusty Funk and Wagnels, only to
> be dissappointed by the explanation given.
>
As son of a line of architects and art historians, I should be able to
answer that or try at least.
Art Deco was a style created specificly to dress up machines. In the
early stages of a technology, everything is functional and sparton
looking i.e. AK breadboard, Benz's and Duryeas's first cars. Then it
gets dressed up to look like the accepted, older products- phonos and
radios in cabinets that look like china cabinets and are furniture
styled, horseless carriages. Deco was a way to put a feminine edge on a
cabinet, etc. and add pleasing details- *without* concealing and often
emphasising the technical nature of the apparatus in question. It was a
path between the previous choices- modernism, which required no
concealment, instead brutal honesty, in aesthtic treatment of technical
function (Frank Lloyd Wright used to love to put a big steam radiator
about 3 feet out from the center of a giant window-"Look at me! I'm a
radiator!"- a focus of the room) and traditional aesthics, which
concealed all function. This involved endless panels, mouldings, and
sometimes foolish bric a brac ala the Titanic main stairwell (one of the
the reasons the bulkheads only went to E deck). The lack of
functionality in this decor becomes apparent later in the film when it
is too late to make the paneling into lifeboats. Wright would have put
the lifeboats as the main focus of the deck and painted them a sober
gray. Art Deco would have made them look so good people would have
wanted more there for ornaments. Traditional Victorian British aesthtics
said "Ugh, how cluttered the decks look- let's leave 1/2 off the
specifications."
As far as a look goes, then, think of modern but with curvy, not
straight edges. Ornamented, but not garishly so. Functional, but not
overly masculine. In short, it looks a bit like the Chrysler building.
That's Deco.
John H.
Pgonshor
John,
Thanks for your explanation. Unfortunately for me it brings on more questions.
Why does my dictionary say art deco is based on cubism? Patterns of straight
lines? I know, the dictionary could be wrong. But this seems to conflict with
your defn. of curvy not straight lines. By your definition, I look at my
decorated styrofoam 7-11 coffee cup and say, gee, that's art deco! Obvously, I
don't get it. I guess the first thing we've got to accept is that art deco is
a subjective term, and therefore means something different to each and every
user? I'm beginning to believe that the phrase "art deco" has no meaning
whatsoever, just a catchy phrase somebody dreampt up to sell something
(probably not radios, at least not at first!). We engineers like concise and
verifiable definitions, not some ever changing, impossible to pin down,
idealistic, subjective, unverifiable term. Frustrated,
Dave
George R. Gonzalez
The problem is there wasnt anybody back then that either named, patented,
registered, or took credit for the "art deco" look, it just sorta
evolved as a reaction to the previous "looks".
So you'll never see an ad in a 1935 Post magazine, saying "Buy the new
1935 Zenith with the wonderful Art Deco Styling!".
The look was only named in hindsight, and even now isnt used outside the
USA, I think.
CommQuart
John wrote in message <6d96qm$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>CommQuart wrote:
>>
>. Wright would have put
>the lifeboats as the main focus of the deck and painted them a sober
>gray. >That's Deco.
>
>John H.
>
Gaaa.... You have roiled the waters, I remain more confused than ever.
It almost sounds like your describing my SX-42, but that was the
product of Raymond Loewy's firm.
Peter
Bob and Diana Isaac
Peter,
Art Deco is not a "what", but rather a "who". Art Deco (born Arthur
Decko) was an architect from Houston, Texas in the mid-1930's who was
notoriously bad at 90 degree angles. To survive, he devised a technique
of deleting these angles from his works through the liberal application
of rounded edges. The look caught on, and found its way into virtually
all product areas (including radios) of the 1930s. On a sad note, poor
Art fell victim to his own invention when he slide off the edge of his
Texaco Oil Building during that building's icy December 1938 dedication
ceremony, plumeting 63 floors to his death. Well, I hope this adds some
clarity to the Art Deco debate. Please visit my HP for investment
opportunities in Arizona real estate with beach access and Martian
geological surveys!
At Your Service,
Bob
John
CommQuart wrote:
>
> >That's Deco.
> >
> >John H.
> >
>
> Gaaa.... You have roiled the waters, I remain more confused than ever.
> It almost sounds like your describing my SX-42, but that was the
> product of Raymond Loewy's firm.
>
> Peter
I don't know- all I can tell you is Deco is like what Tipper Gore said
about porn- well, I know it when I see it. Let me be clear I was saying
Frank Lloyd Wright was almost a complete modernist- I'm certain he found
Art Deco too gaudy for his tastes. To me it is an easily recognized and
defined style. I accidentally decorated my entire house in Art Deco
because a lot of good furniture and a couple of consoles appeared over
the summer that were too cheap to resist.
A cathedral radio is not Deco. Its design harkens back to the Gothic
era. Its lines are wrong. For Deco, you must have the hard masculine
edge rounded or at least dressed up ala RCA consoles of 1939 or so (I
have a K-50) and a cathedral lacks this feature. Now, everyone get out
your Bunis 4 (I've always wanted to sound like Randy) and follow along.
Page 114, Howard model 225- a real clean example. Fairly minimalist
though- I forgot to mention yes, Cubism's influence is visible in the
frequent use of diagonal veneering and other contrasting grain
orientations. Page 147, Philco 15X- NOT Deco. It's all traditional
styling- neo-Greco/Roman. Nearly all function concealed. Page 149 Philco
38-9- an excellent example of Deco. Across pages 151-153, Deco is
everywhere or at least strong influences. Note the contrasting angled
and curvy veneers in the Philco 40-501- this is very characteristic of
the style. Often it is curly maple (feminine element) inlaid with narrow
strips of diagonal grain or angled strips of straight grain (masculine
element). The technical and decorative must compare, constrast, and
complement each other. If you feel it is nearly pure function or pure
ornament, it isn't Deco. Page 167- Pla-Pal fairly hard edged here but
pretty ornamented as well so the softening of the "techy" look is
apparent. For Bakelite, page 233 Zenith 4-B-422. Also Westinghouse
WR-120 page 230 but this is again more Deco influenced than directly
derived.
Oh, and your Zenith 7-S-432 and my 8-S-432 (thanks to those who helped
me realise the difference) are Deco influenced. The curved left side
with the horizontal bars is anyway.
Is that any clearer :) ?
John H.
Mark
Art Deco is a design style characterized by patterns of parellel
lines and rounded corners. During the period (late 40's?) everything
was influenced by the design, including architecture. There are
pitched battles here whenever the owner wants to demolish a building
of this design. I believe muted or pastel colors were part of the
style, which seemed to be influenced by the rounded curves of the
aviation industry. See pitifull attempt at curved art with square
characters below. Large curves intersected by perpendicular planes, in
a repeating pattern, usually in threes.
-\--\--\
| | | <-Three rounded planes intersected by a perpendicular one.
-|--|--|-)
-/ / /
I'm neither a historian or an art expert, I just live here in Los
Angeles where Art Deco is revered by many. The movie "Xanadu" was
filmed at the Pacific Auditorium shortly before it (mysteriously)
burned down, ending a long fight with a developer. It was an Art Deco
landmark. Also see "The Shadow" and "Dick Tracy", if I remember them
right.
Unfortunately the German radios I'm currently interested
(Telefunkens, Grundigs) in are built with Danish Modern cabinets,
which are square boxes made of blonde wood. Art Deco radios were
molded of Bakelite or Polystyrene (plastic). Juke boxes of the period
were great examples of Art Deco.
Mark Van Nordstrand in North Hollywood, CA, USA
Andrew Emmerson
In article <6d9a70$d67$1...@shadow.skypoint.net>, g...@foundsys.com (George R.
Gonzalez) wrote:
> The look was only named in hindsight, and even now isnt used outside the
> USA, I think.
Pardon? The name was coined as direct result of a style first noted at the
_Exposition des Arts Decoratifs_ in Paris (France) about 1928 (may have
been a year either side or so). That's where the name Art Deco came from
and it is widely used in Europe.
However, I do agree the term was used widely only in retrospect, just as
the Victorians did not talk about 'Victorian architecture' in their day;
they just called it 'Gothic' or 'Pointed' or possibly even 'contemporary',
although 'Contemporary' with a capital C is a term now applied to mid/late
1950s style.
Andrew Emmerson/Midshires Mediatech/405 Alive
tel: 07000-405625, international +44 1604-844130
fax: 01604-821647, international +44 1604-821647
William P Turner
CURVEY?
Bill
John
JJMcF wrote:
>
> I'm no art historian but I have never read such a mishmash of misinformation as
> has ensued on this thread. <snip>
Art deco was followed by "art moderne," a rounded
> style without formal ornament. 1940s Philco radios are not art deco--they are
> art moderne.
Thank you for that helpful lesson. Excuse me, I gracefully remove foot
from mouth. I do see examples of ornamented rounded styles and still
don't as clearly distinguish the two as you do. I should mention I do
know for certain Art Deco drew inspiration as well from the Eygptian and
Mayan temple designs discovered in the late 20's.
John H.
JJMcF
I'm no art historian but I have never read such a mishmash of misinformation as
decoratifs" and named after a Paris show in the mid-1920s. It is a successor
to "art nouveau." While art nouveau emphasized organic curves, art deco tended
toward geometric ornamentation, somewhat related to cubism. Most designers of
1925-1935 bowed somewhat to the trend, but the best designers of that period
tended not to design "classic" art deco, but rather to do their own thing.
Also, lots of designs in this period were just pop kitsch (eg Philco 90
cathedral) and had nothing to do with art deco. You can see classic art deco
design in the interiors of the Empire State Building (1932) and the Chrysler
Building in Manhattan, and their counterparts in every sizable town in the USA.
The best example of an art deco radio I know of is the Radiola 33 and its
matching speaker (c. 1928). Art deco was followed by "art moderne," a rounded
ToddBranst
This is about the best (only?) discussion of "deco" and radios I have yet seen.
I'd like to add a few items, though. One of the major influences for the
initial form of art deco was the skyscraper. When the big ones were going up
in New York especially, there was an outcry of concern that the great
monolithic structures would block out the sun to the streets below, creating
dark canyons. The compromise agreed to was that the buildings would have a
smaller cross section the higher they went. The result was the pyramid-like
form that we so often see in the skysrapers of that era, notably the Chrysler
building. This form became popular as a design element, usually as a
two-dimensional three step pyramid. I would guess that this application of the
pyramid derived from recent discoveries in Egypt and Central America. It is
only natural, then, that the geometric as well as figural decorations were
modified and used in the decor. My art history is a little rusty, here, but
other postings have refreshed my memory that much of the decor rose from the
Paris exposition, hence the term Art Deco. By the way, pastels were not
originally used on the true deco buildings. Richer colors, like cobalt blue,
were more often used in contrast with lighter colors.
This was a great time for design, as the creation and availability of consumer
goods exploded, and the desire to make them more attractive and less
utilitarian increased. Unfortunately, then the depression hit. As it began to
subside, say the mid thirties, we started to see new stuff. And it looked
different- not the vertical designs of the late twenties or early thirties.
The influence of the airplane and an understanding of aerodynamics brought us-
ta daa- Streamline Moderne. This is an emphasis on horizontal lines and
rounding. Making immobile objects look as if they could fly. A combination of
these two themes are what we usually see on radios called deco.
Then came Art Moderne. Very much a European trend and, it is most often seen
in architecture in the US in buildings built by the WPA. Flat wall surfaces,
very little ornamentation. Often bas-relief figures placed centrally over
doors. Those out of work architects were quite progressive. Not often seen on
radios, but check out some of the American Bosch products of the early-mid
thirties. These were German designs, completely different from the American
products in appearance.
Then came plain ol' modern, then space age, etc. A great deal of overlapping
occurred as well, of course. Anyway, I'll shut up now. Oh- present day deco?
That's kitsch. It's in the dictionary.
I think I have this stuff right, but it's all off the top of my head so any
flaming will be read with interest.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Todd Branstner
Friend of Old Houses, Old Radios, and
more junk than I can possibly find space for.
Home Page: http:/members.aol.com/toddbranst/
William P Turner
KITSCH IN GERMAN MEANS TRASH
Bill
George R. Gonzalez
Andrew Emmerson wrote in message ...
>In article <6d9a70$d67$1...@shadow.skypoint.net>, g...@foundsys.com (George
R.
>Gonzalez) wrote:
>
>> The look was only named in hindsight, and even now isnt used outside
the
>> USA, I think.
>
>Pardon? The name was coined as direct result of a style first noted at
the
>_Exposition des Arts Decoratifs_ in Paris (France) about 1928 (may have
>been a year either side or so).
That may be. The info I got was from a newspaper article that claimed
IIRC that the term wasnt widely used elsewhere, or maybe I read it wrong.
>
>However, I do agree the term was used widely only in retrospect, just as
>the Victorians did not talk about 'Victorian architecture' in their day;
>they just called it 'Gothic' or 'Pointed' or possibly even
'contemporary',
>although 'Contemporary' with a capital C is a term now applied to
mid/late
>1950s style.
Oh goody, now I have a name for all those ugly 50's AA5 radios! :)
Regards,
George
Bob and Diana Isaac
Martin Dillon
Art deco {realisticaly}refers to a French term from France meaning Decorative Arts.As the French say everthing backwards it means Arts Decorative.So we say the short form Art Deco.This type of design is taken from Ships ,Trains ,Skyscapers etc.
Next time you look at your 1940 Zenith Console or a 1946 Fridgedaire or anything else from about 1925 to 1947 think trains ,planes,skyscrapers,and 37 Fords etc.This French guy Mr Mulldeaur started all this and the Post World War I Baby Boomers picked up on this new design for everything in rebellion against Victorian design of their parents.Art Deco and ARt Neuveau are the design choise of an era and nothing else.Thank Goodness we had Art Deco from France because without it, would we still be interested in these nice old Radios we collect?.
Martin Dillon
mar...@ebtech.net
The Farmers
I can't resist this opportunity to provide a link to a picture of the Art-Deco
Radiola 100B speaker that matches the Art-Deco Radiola 33 radio referenced by
JJMcF. (It sells at eBay on 2/4/98)
http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7015134
-- Greg Farmer
CommQuart
super wagon
Well , we have Art Deco and Deco . These both have different
meanings . Deco is any radio for sale at e-Bay ! Art Deco is my 1939
Bendix tumbler washing machine with it`s corinthian curved lines . Even
the lint strainer is round . Now thats Art Deco !
Randy cros...@webtv.net
CommQuart
Randy,
I had a real smart comment for this one, but I am holding back.
Pete
super wagon wrote in message
<6dirkc$bp5$1...@newsd-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Jim Cross
George R. Gonzalez wrote:
>
> The problem is there wasnt anybody back then that either named, patented,
> registered, or took credit for the "art deco" look, it just sorta
> evolved as a reaction to the previous "looks".
>
> So you'll never see an ad in a 1935 Post magazine, saying "Buy the new
> 1935 Zenith with the wonderful Art Deco Styling!".
>
> USA, I think.
NO, NO, NO, 'tis not "What is Art Deco?", but "Who was Art Deco?". My
grandfather explained this to me in a bar many years ago. Arthur Deco
was a down and out architect who wanted to design simple, spartan, and
functional everyday products. He did mostly freelance work, and his
architectual background shows through in the AirKing line, but he
finally landed a job with Philco. His first effort there was to design a
table radio that prevented anyone from setting a drink on top of it.
This became the cathedral radio. Unfortunately, his plan backfired, as
his designs were considered not functional at all, but asthetically
pleasing. Later in life, he foisted "Decopage" (art? with paper and
glue) on an unsuspecting world.
Jim Cross
Pgonshor
I believe Jim's story more than the many who have tried in vain to explain art
deco! Many experts and not-so-experts have proclaimed with definition that
they know exactly what art deco means. But, none have provided a definition
that can legitimately be used as a guide (to us dumb engineers, that is).
IMHO.
Dave
Yes, and I believe in El Nino too! I believe! I have seen the white!
Bryan Cowan
In article <19980310010...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
pgon...@aol.com says...
Art Deco is not something that can be *explained*. I believe it was
first exhibited in Paris in 1925 or so, and that the name *art deco*
comes from a contraction of a French term.
Ken Gooding
the words ART DECO have found there way into the world of collectables
many items old
and new could be considered art deco
the term makes some people feel the collectable item is worth more if it
is refered to
as art deco . i agree it started in the 30s using
plain pieces with very noticable curves on it
somewhere
CASchwark
Lisa Catera's Grandfather. :-)
Chuck
Chuck Schwark, Chicago, IL
Antique Radio Club of Illinois (Elgin)
Antique Radio Resource Page:
http://members.aol.com/caschwark/index.htm
Home of the PHILCO REPAIR BENCH
JJMcF
>t
>deco! Many experts and not-so-experts have proclaimed with definition that
>they know exactly what art deco means. But, none have provided a definition
>that can legitimately be used as a guide (to us dumb engineers
The date of the piece is a very good guide--1925-1935 approximately.. Anything
outside that period is very unlikely to be art deco. And anything made today
can't be art deco--if it resembled art deco it would be designated "art deco
style." These are standard criteria used in the design business--there's no
mystery about it although admittedly there are fringe items that might or might
not be considered art deco, just as there are some cars that might or might not
be considered "classic," etc.
William P Turner
Please let this die it's normal slow death
Bill
JJMcF
On the surface this looks like a dumb discussion thread, but there's a serious
issue here--the misrepresentation of items by a certain predatory fringe of
radio dealers. We, the experts, should not allow imprecise terminology to
proliferate in the old radio market.
super wagon
Just about anything offered for sale that is more than a few years
old is misrepresented with flowering rhetoric conceived to lure the
uninformed . None of us will live long enough to see the day when words
like Classic, Collectible or Art Deco are not used for every piece of
worthless junk about to be unloaded on some serf . We can carry on
countless conversations and take up volumes of space in this NG , but it
is all a waste . Let`s use this NG for more meaningful topics or
technical exchanges . I am sure most of will agree with this . Amen !
Randy cros...@webtv.net