What are the better brands of old radios to look for?

[pine...@unlisted.com]

What are the better brands of old radios to look for?
I'm referring to the old tube type radios from the 50s and 60s.
Most of them had 50C5 - 35W4 - 12BE6 - 12BA6 and 12AV6 or 12AT6 tubes.
I worked on so many of these sets when I was a teenager on the 60s that
I almost remember their schematics. Unfortunately I did not save any of
them, and I wish I had.

I now see them at auctions and often for little money. I have gotten a
few of them recently and all they need are filter capacitors, because
they hum like crazy. But that was no surprise, because even in the 60's
they all seemed to need those caps. For some reason, those old wax
covered caps never seemed to hold up as well as the ones that were in
aluminum cans. I can only guess they were made cheaply and mass
produced.

Those radios were all about the same chassis, just in a different
cabinet. But I am just wondering which brands/models have more value.
I'm not really collecting these to make a profit, I just like the looks
of them and also like working on tube stuff. (And the first thing I
always do, is put a polarized plug and new cord on them, because of
their "hot chassis", which was their biggest fault).

Of course, I will also get older radios, which usually have octal based
tubes, and most were a lot safer with power transformers and generally
had 6V6 - 5U4 - 6AU6, and a few other tubes with 6 volt filaments.

[Peter Wieck]

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 8:41:44 AM UTC-5, pine...@unlisted.com wrote:
> What are the better brands of old radios to look for?

First, we are discussing 50s/60s consumer grade radios per your description. Not high-end consoles, pre-war radios and similar. These, typically, would be shelf-radios with usually one band (AM) and sometimes a clock, sometimes not. Then, You need to distinguish between "good" and "popular". And, sometimes, even within brands.

GOOD radios are well made and repairable, with easily found generic parts, well made 'expensive' parts and easily aligned. Popular (and possibly expensive) radios may not be very good.

Eyecatching radios are Popular.
Radios made with strange plastics are Popular.
Many, but not all Philcos are Good. Some few are very popular.
Many but not all Motorolas are Good. Some few are very popular.
Some, but not all Zeniths are Good - and some fewer are both Good and Popular.
Many off-brand/generic radios were made by job-shops that contracted to various companies such as Sears (Silvertone), Wards (Airline) et.al.. And those radios would be as good as the price-point permitted and the buyer demanded. Some Companies such as Bendix, Arvin, Sparton and others made radios because they could, but it was not their primary business. And some few of those rebranded job-shop radios so as to maintain a complete line of appliances.

Popular brands of that era include, in Rank Order as demonstrated regularly at Kutztown (an eastern location):

= Zenith
= FADA
= Crosley
Arvin
RCA
GE
Motorola
Westinghouse
Hallicrafters
Philco
Silvertone
Airline
Bendix

And any of several others. Point being that condition and appearance drive everything along these lines. A Catalin radio from the 30s and 40s with a junk chassis inside will fetch far more than a very good radio of the same era in a wooden box.

There are lots of guides out there, most useful for *relative* pricing - this radio is worth *relatively* more than that radio, not for absolute pricing. My favorite is Grinder's.

https://www.amazon.com/Radio-Collectors-Directory-Price-Guide/dp/1886606064

Unless you are "investing" rather than "collecting" - look for those radios that appeal to you and stop there. Style and levels of popularity change from year to year, even day to day. Once upon a time, a very good Zenith H500 TransOceanic would fetch over $200 any day of the week, and more sometimes. Then, all sorts of them started to crawl out of their attics, barns and basements. Today that same $200 radio would be stretched to fetch $100 including shipping.

So, buy what you like. Keep in mind that between 1921 and 1965 (44 years) over 300,000,000 (three hundred million) radios were manufactured in the United States alone. If even 5% of them survived that leaves about 15,000,000 radios for us to enjoy. Not counting the rest of the world. I expect the survival rate to be well more than 5%.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Jim Mueller]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 07:40:17 -0600, pineridge wrote:

> What are the better brands of old radios to look for?
> I'm referring to the old tube type radios from the 50s and 60s.
> Most of them had 50C5 - 35W4 - 12BE6 - 12BA6 and 12AV6 or 12AT6 tubes.

>snip

>(And the first thing I
> always do, is put a polarized plug and new cord on them, because of
> their "hot chassis", which was their biggest fault).
>

>snip
Simply putting on a polarized plug won't help. First of all, most of
these radios don't have a "hot chassis". Most of them don't even have a
chassis, they have a PC board. Those that do have a metal chassis almost
always have a "floating ground" so that one side of the power line isn't
directly connected to the chassis. The real "hot chassis" radios are
mostly those from the '30s. By the time the '50s came around, safety was
starting to become a priority.

Even if the radio does have a hot chassis (a few do), a polarized plug by
itself won't help. The problem is that the switch is almost always in
the "ground" line. This means that if the chassis is connected to the
neutral side of the power line when the switch is on, it will be
connected to the "hot" side when the switch is off, the connection being
made through the tube heaters, which have a fairly low resistance when
cold. If the plug is reversed, the chassis becomes hot when the radio is
on and cold when it is off. The solution to this situation is to rewire
the switch into the "hot" side of the AC line. Of course, this runs the
risk of hum since it puts 120VAC right next to the volume control (in
most sets) which is the most sensitive spot for hum pickup.

If you TRULY want to be "safe", use an isolation transformer. But most
sets from the '50s on are insulated well enough that this isn't necessary.

Don't forget to replace the paper capacitors (including those molded in
plastic) when you replace the electrolytics. The electrolytics are more
likely to be good than the paper capacitors. Check the resistors too and
replace those that are out of tolerance. Many of those haven't survived
very well either.




--
Jim Mueller wron...@nospam.com

To get my real email address, replace wrongname with dadoheadman.
Then replace nospam with fastmail. Lastly, replace com with us.

[pine...@unlisted.com]

One of my favorite old radios I got when I was quite young. Its a 1946
Hallicrafters multi-band shortwave set. Its in a gray metal case.
Hallicrafters S-41G "Skyrider Jr." receiver.
http://www.ohio.edu/people/postr/bapix/S-41G.htm

It was nothing fancy as far as features, but it always got great
reception.

But that one had a hot chassis, and it "bit" me several times. Worse
yet, its metal case was separated from the chassis by rubber grommets,
and from age, they became dry, and soon the whole radio was electrically
live. I was young, but learning electronics, and I replaced those
grommets with some more durable nylon ones.

Once, I had run a long wire out my window, to a tree for an antenna.
Then I learned that the antenna should have a ground wire on the radio,
so I hooked a piece of thin insulated wire from the chassis screw
labelled (GND) to the screw that holds the plate on an outlet. I turned
on the radio and instantly had a ground wire burst into smoke, then
flames, and as I reached to unplug the radio, that hot wire enbedded
itself into the skin on my fingers. At that point that thin wire must
have burned in half, and there was no more flame. However, my parents
were all worked up from all the smoke, and saw the burn mark left from
that wire in the floor tiles, and then saw my burned fingers and took me
to the emergency room.

My father took that radio away from me, and was going to throw it in the
trash, but let me take it to an older guy who was a Ham operator as well
as a radio repairman, who had a radio club for Boy Scouts. He said my
nylon grommet replacement looked good, but said that this was a
dangerous radio, and it needed an isolation transformer. After talking
to my dad about it, he lent me an isolation trans and told me to ALWAYS
use that trans. He calmed my dad down too, and dad paid the guy for that
transformer, and told me to NEVER plug it in without that trans.

After that, I never had anymore problems with that radio.

And guess what, I still have that radio. Its been in storage for years,
but I never parted with it. It has a lot of memories, and it taught me
some lessons, and also got me involved in that Ham operators radio club.
I was just doing some math, and I've probably owned that radio about 50
years.... Time sure flies....

Heck, now I want to go to my storage place and get that thing. Im sure
it will need some caps now though, but it's time to fire it up again...

That website above lists all the dangers of using that radio as it was
made, and includes the things you said too.

By the way, that website says "A manual and schematic for the S-41G can
be found on BAMA".

WHAT THE HECK IS BAMA?
I'd like to download all of that so I have it....

I still like that old radio, but I am sure glad they do not sell
dangerous stuff like that anymore. It really should have had a power
transformer right from the factory!

[Peter Wieck]

On Friday, January 27, 2017 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-5, pine...@unlisted.com wrote:

> WHAT THE HECK IS BAMA?
> I'd like to download all of that so I have it....
>
> I still like that old radio, but I am sure glad they do not sell
> dangerous stuff like that anymore. It really should have had a power
> transformer right from the factory!

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/

Boat Anchor Manual Archive (BAMA).

Polarized plugs have one virtue - at least when the radio is OFF, there is no power on the chassis/board/whatever if installed correctly. But when the radio is ON, it is as bad as any.

AA5 radios do take a level of precaution - in point of fact, all vintage equipment should demand the same precautions until proven otherwise. But, I keep a very nice Isovariac (Heath IP5220) on my bench - and pretty much anything on the bench goes through it until deemed 'fit' for polite society. There is a nice write-up on this devices here: http://www.byan-roper.org/steve/steve-at-play/antique-electronics-and-2/heathkit-ip-5220-variable.html With thanks to Steve.

Generally I advise "newbies" not to work on any radio or other electrical equipment anywhere near an electrical plug until they are fully acquainted with the dangers and issues and/or have acquired the correct isolation transformer and understand its uses *AND* its limitations. Some of these radios (not a typical AA5, happily) can have 500VDC or more lurking inside. Painful at the very least. Fatal, very possibly. But even with an AA5, 120VAC is nothing to sneeze at and can be equally dangerous if abused.

Once upon a time, a "Cheap" radio would cost a month's salary. An expensive radio might easily cost 6 month's salary or even a good deal more - back when $5/day was a living wage. Along came the AA5, and all of a sudden, radios were available to the masses for a few hour's salary, if that. And in order to sell to those uncounted masses, niceties such as power transformers - the single most expensive part of any radio - had to go.

[Foxs Mercantile]

On 1/27/2017 7:08 AM, pine...@unlisted.com wrote:
> By the way, that website says "A manual and schematic for the S-41G can
> be found on BAMA".
>
> WHAT THE HECK IS BAMA?
> I'd like to download all of that so I have it....

<http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/hallicra/s41g/>


--
Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi
http://www.foxsmercantile.com

[Jim Mueller]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 07:40:17 -0600, pineridge wrote:

> snip

> (And the first thing I
> always do, is put a polarized plug and new cord on them, because of
> their "hot chassis", which was their biggest fault).

> snip
Another danger of polarized plugs is that people (usually beginners)
assume that a radio with one is "safe". That's not the case. Some
people on ARF (http://www.antiqueradios.com/) claim that they have found
about 1/3 of all wall outlets wired backwards. Personally, I haven't
found that high a number but I have certainly found my share. Another
problem is the use of extension cords. The modern ones are molded of
soft plastic and many of the female ends fit so tightly that you can't
tell if you are plugging something in correctly or forcing it in
backwards.

You may have checked all the receptacles in your house and are careful
with extension cords, but other people don't know about these issues.
And after you die or otherwise get rid of the radio, someone else will
certainly have possession of it. The radio needs to be as safe as
possible no matter which way it is plugged in; then a polarized plug is a
nice extra.

[pine...@unlisted.com]

On 28 Jan 2017 18:43:22 GMT, Jim Mueller <wron...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 07:40:17 -0600, pineridge wrote:
>
>> snip
>> (And the first thing I
>> always do, is put a polarized plug and new cord on them, because of
>> their "hot chassis", which was their biggest fault).
>> snip
>Another danger of polarized plugs is that people (usually beginners)
>assume that a radio with one is "safe". That's not the case. Some
>people on ARF (http://www.antiqueradios.com/) claim that they have found
>about 1/3 of all wall outlets wired backwards. Personally, I haven't
>found that high a number but I have certainly found my share. Another
>problem is the use of extension cords. The modern ones are molded of
>soft plastic and many of the female ends fit so tightly that you can't
>tell if you are plugging something in correctly or forcing it in
>backwards.
>
>You may have checked all the receptacles in your house and are careful
>with extension cords, but other people don't know about these issues.
>And after you die or otherwise get rid of the radio, someone else will
>certainly have possession of it. The radio needs to be as safe as
>possible no matter which way it is plugged in; then a polarized plug is a
>nice extra.

----

I have been checking out a lot of web stuff about those old hot chassis
radios. In many ways, it sort of amazes me that they were ever allowed
to be sold to people who for the most part had no clue about electrical
safety. Of course I know that times were different in the day they were
produced, and that polarized and/or grounded outlets did not yet exist.
It kind of makes me wonder just how many people unnecessarily died
because of these radios, and other unsafe electrical devices.

It kind of reminds me of my former neighbor, who died at least 10 years
ago from old age, at 90 something. He was a guy who could repair almost
anything made from metal or was mechanical. When he was younger, I would
take things to him to be repaired, and he always managed to fix them,
but many times I would be in his shop, and he would yell, and I might
see sparks as he used a lot of cuss words, because something shocked
him. Then he would go and replace a fuse and bitch about the price of
fuses. He would turn on a grinder and if it shocked him, he would cuss,
then reverse the plug in the wall, and use it. The wiring in that shop
scared the crap out of me. It was right out of the early 1900s, and was
spliced and modified so many times, with wires hanging all over the
place, it's a miracle it never burned. Even more of a miracle he lived
to be 90 something.....

He used to tell me about the days he was still farming, and had cattle
and hogs, and he repeatedly said how often he lost money because these
animals were electrocuted. In one instance he said he lost around 30
hogs at once, during the winter from a defective water tank deicer. I
later bought some of his farm land, which adjoined my land, and that
included that old hog shed. I went in there and one look at the wiring
made me cut the wires going to that shed, even though they were not
connected to electric service at that time. But I saw the old watering
tank, connected to steel pipes that went underground, and saw the wires
going to the built in deicer, where the wires were twisted together with
no wirenuts or even tape on them.

Times have changed, and these days I think we have almost gone overboard
with safety restrictions and codes on wiring and everything else. But at
least we are mostly safe these days.

The part I DO NOT understand is why people from that era did not have
more common sense with electricity. They were not stupid for the most
part, after all, that is the generation that built the whole machinery
age, and brought us to where we are today. In fact I think most of them
had more smarts than a lot of the young people today who cant think
beyond pushing the buttons on their cell phone or game machines.

I actually consider myself pretty lucky that I survived my teen years,
since I spent them playing around with electronics and elecrical stuff.
And I did so, mostly without any adult supervision. My father was very
afraid of touching anything electrical. If anything, I taught him some
things about it, and I changed the outlets in his shop to grounded ones,
because he got shocked a few times on those old metal cased power tools.
But I did learn many of these things the hard way. Not only did that
(and other) hot chassis devices "bite me" numerous times, but I survived
1200 volts DC from direct contact with the power supply in an old
military radio transmitter. A shock that literally threw me, and the
heavy oak chair I was sitting on, all the way across my basement, and
left me in a daze for about a half hour afterwards.

The funny thing is that I still love working on the old tube stuff, and
absolutely hate working on anything with semiconductors.

Anyhow, I found this web URL that explains the proper way to modify
these "hot chassis" radios.

http://www.geojohn.org/Radios/MyRadios/Safety.html

Great article!

---

By the way, one thing I never understood after all these years...
Why do some people call these 'power transformerless' devices (hot
chassis) as " AC/DC" radios? That has never made sense to me. First off,
120v DC is not common. Secondly, while DC (at 120v) would light the
tubes filaments, it would not power the rest of the radio (without
serious modifications).

[Foxs Mercantile]

On 1/28/2017 7:28 PM, pine...@unlisted.com wrote:
> By the way, one thing I never understood after all these years...
> Why do some people call these 'power transformerless' devices (hot
> chassis) as " AC/DC" radios? That has never made sense to me. First off,
> 120v DC is not common. Secondly, while DC (at 120v) would light the
> tubes filaments, it would not power the rest of the radio (without
> serious modifications).

Ah, but at one time, it was quite common.
And yes it would power the rest of the radios.
The B+ would be 120 or so volts, rather than the 130-150 volts that
could be had with rectified AC.

[Peter Wieck]

On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 9:07:51 PM UTC-5, Foxs Mercantile wrote:

>
> Ah, but at one time, it was quite common.
> And yes it would power the rest of the radios.
> The B+ would be 120 or so volts, rather than the 130-150 volts that
> could be had with rectified AC.

The Legacy DC from the original Pearl Street Plant installed by Thomas Edison in NYC in 1882 did not go off-line until 2007, when the last building in NYC that used exclusively DC switched over to AC by installing a massive rectifier system on-premises. This to run legacy equipment still in use. That was less than ten (10) years ago.

[pine...@unlisted.com]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 06:24:09 -0800 (PST), Peter Wieck <pf...@aol.com>
wrote:

>http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/
>
>Boat Anchor Manual Archive (BAMA).

Thank You!

Lots of interesting stuff on that site.
(before you posted this reply, I tried bama.com and was on a site for
baking supplies).

[Jim Mueller]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 19:28:48 -0600, pineridge wrote:

> The part I DO NOT understand is why people from that era did not have
> more common sense with electricity.

>My father was very
>afraid of touching anything electrical.

You've answered your own question.