Should Mountain Biking Be an Olympic Sport?
Mike Vandeman
August 11, 1997
Juan Antonio Samaranch
President, International Olympic Committee
Chateau de Vidy
1007 Lausanne, Switzerland
Katia Mascagni Stivachtis, Chief, Section of Environmental Affairs
Department of International Cooperation and Public Information
International Olympic Committee
Chateau de Vidy
1007 Lausanne, Switzerland
Gentlepersons:
I was delighted to learn (from your web page) that protection
of the environment (after sports and culture) is now one of the
main goals of the Olympics. The visibility and prestige of the
Olympics give you enormous responsibility, especially toward young
people, who will be strongly influenced by what they see. As you
well know, nonverbal learning is very powerful, and is for many
people (e.g. preliterate children) the primary means by which the
Olympics teaches them about sports, culture, and the environment.
People, especially children, assume that what they see on
television, especially in the Olympics, is proper.
__________________________
Therefore, I was shocked, saddened, and embarrassed when I
discovered that mountain biking has been accepted as an Olympic
sport. I am enclosing several papers in which I explain in detail
the harm that mountain biking inflicts on wildlife. But I will try
to summarize that information here.
We are in the midst of a worldwide extinction crisis.
According to the IUCN (International Union for the Conservation of
Nature and Natural Resources), one fourth of all of the world's
animals are threatened with extinction. The primary threat is loss
of habitat. Such loss includes obvious, outright destruction, such
as clearcutting and open-pit mining, but also the excessive
presence of humans, which often causes wildlife to abandon their
preferred habitat. In either case, the wildlife lose access to
important resources, such as certain food sources and potential
mates. When judging effects on wildlife, it is essential to look at
the situation from their point of view, not ours. If they abandon
_____ ____
an area, the habitat is effectively destroyed for them, regardless
of what we think.
__
The primary reason why mountain biking is harmful to wildlife,
thus, is that it makes it much easier for people to get into
____
wildlife habitat. Mountain bikers don't just show up at the
Olympics to race. They have to spend many hours training. And where
do they prefer to ride? In wilderness (wildlife habitat). And what
__________
kind of trail do they prefer to ride on? "Single-track" trails,
which are primarily in wilderness, or at least the most natural
part of any area. That is also, of course, the area preferred by
wildlife. The Olympics are a powerful motivator. When people see a
sport in the Olympics, they identify with the athletes and want to
participate in the sport. Thus, by simply including mountain biking
in the Olympics, you unleash a tidal wave of people buying mountain
bikes, flooding parks and wilderness areas, and participating in
races. As is usual when there is an increase in recreation,
wildlife lose more and more of their (already dangerously
dwindling) habitat.
The bicycle is a wonderful tool, but like any technological
aid, it can be used for good (e.g. to replace auto travel) or evil
(e.g. to expand man's domination of wildlife habitat). Similar
damage arises from the use of the use of other technologies, such
as climbing aids (extending man's reach onto cliffs), rafts (giving
people access to the entire length of a river), night-vision
goggles (making night-time access to habitat easier), etc.
Throughout our evolution, technological aids (e.g. guns, the
internal combustion engine, etc.) have given us vastly more power
than any other species, and the more we have wielded them, the more
damage we have done. You had the right idea when you banned sports
that "depend essentially on mechanical propulsion". Technological
aids have no place (or at most a minor place) in Olympic sports,
which are based on simple physical activities like walking and
swimming that measure the physical (e.g. strength and health) and
spiritual (e.g. sportsmanship) dimensions of a human being, not of
___
his or her tools.
Many mountain bikers also lack sportsmanship. They insist on
riding even when their enjoyment conflicts with that of wildlife
and other people. Elderly hikers are being driven off of hiking
trails they have enjoyed all their lives. Threatened species have
been killed by bikers, who then try to pretend that it didn't
happen or was insignificant. Anyone who speaks out against mountain
biking is attacked viciously, as I have been and continue to be. My
physical safety and that of my family have been threatened, for
simply telling the truth about the effects of mountain biking on
wildlife. Many mountain bikers seem to see their goal as conquering
anything and anyone in their path. I haven't seen such a lack of
sportsmanship in any other sport (with the exception of
professional wrestling and one infamous instance in ice skating).
Mountain biking also destroys vast numbers of organisms that
live in and on soil, creating devastating erosion. One Olympic
hopeful, for example, trained in Brown's Woods, DesMoines, Iowa,
where habitat destruction was so bad that the county was forced to
close the park to bikes. The knobby tires used by virtually all
mountain bikers are perfectly designed to rip up the soil and kill
the plants and animals that live there. They insist on using those
tires even though they don't need that much traction unless they
are traveling at excessive speed, or riding on steep slopes or wet
ground where biking is inappropriate.
The Earth's environmental problems are so huge that they will
not be solved without all of us doing our part. I appreciate that
you are striving to do your part, and are re-examining the Olympics
____
with the environment in mind. I hope you will consider dropping
mountain biking as an Olympic sport, and take another look at all
the other sports (e.g. canoeing, which also intrudes into important
wildlife habitat) from the point of view of wildlife.
Sincerely,
Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
P.S. A larger issue, of course, is whether an activity that
requires the long-distance travel of thousands of people can ever
____
be sustainable. I suggest that you recognize that the Earth's oil
supplies will soon be exhausted (estimated by the experts at about
2040), and create a committee to begin planning for it. (E.g., how
do we want to make use of the oil that is left? Burn it up?!).
Every organization should have such a committee!
_____
References:
Ehrlich, Paul and Anne, Extinction: The Causes and Consequences of
__________________________________________
the Disappearance of Species. c.1981.
____________________________
Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
____________
Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
______________
Phillips, Kathryn, Tracking the Vanishing Frogs: An Ecological
___________________________________________
Mystery. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1994.
____________________________________________
Stebbins, Robert, personal communication.
Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
Edmund Mitchell
Mike Vandeman <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
Mike, I'd like to address the subject of your posting, that of mountain
biking being an Olympic sport.
You state that the inclusion of mountain biking into the Olympic Charter
will swell the ranks of mountain bikers and damage the environment thereby,
and this is patently false. Many Olympic sports, even some that have been
on the Charter for the better part of a century, labor in obscurity, which,
according to you, cannot be, because the Olympics brings such attention to
all sports contained therein that new participants flock, right? Please
then tell me when such sports as fencing, biathlon, pentathlon, field
hockey, flatwater canoe/kayak and others can expect to end their centuries
of collective waiting for your predicted influx of popularity? Many of
these sports can barely afford to exist on a National level, yet enjoy long
Olympic traditions.
Mountain biking was the fastest growing segment of bicycling over a decade
ago, and was a giant international industry long before any of its
participants received gold medals. Vast numbers of bikers were already
riding, and, industry statistics show 1996 to have been a sales year of
predictable and unextraordinary growth, with the returns for 1997 leaning
in the same direction. Meteoric growth is a thing of the past.
On a personal note, I believe the environment would be best served through
strict population controls, and I applaud your efforts into "wildlife only"
zones. I also resent your multiple stereotypes of mountain bikers, which
betrays a deep ignorance on your part of the nature of the participants in
the sport. Please educate yourself in this area, as none of us are served
by ignorance.
Sincerely
Edmund Mitchell
>
Chris Phillipo
:>---
:>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
:>fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
:>
:>http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
Mikey, what sports do you suggest do not harm the environment and therefore
are applauded by you ? Please post a complete list.
By the way, we'll be sure to explain once again to the world who you are and
how you are struggling to keep your pathological lieing under control. We're
pulling for ya kido.
___________________________________________
Chris Phillipo - webm...@tread.pair.com
TREAD Publications - TREAD Online! Cycle Magazine. <07-30-97>
http://www.tread.pair.com/ - http://www.tread.pair.com/bikemag/
Chris Phillipo
_____________
:>Mystery. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1994.
:>____________________________________________
:>
:>Stebbins, Robert, personal communication.
:>
:>Vandeman, Michael J., Ph.D.
:>http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
:>
:>---
:>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
:>fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
:>
:>http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
Dear Mikey, I'm forwarding a copy of the MJV FAQ to Juan Antonio Samaranch,
also, I will be sure to mention your many monetary contributions to the IMBA.
I'm sure Juan will agree with me when I state that your letter was merely an
attempt at well orchestrated satire and should be disregarded or posted on
walls throughout the office to lift the committee's spirits from time to time.
Keep up the good work boy.
Matt Wheeler
> Mike Vandeman wrote:
> <snip>
I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
respond. PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
Michael A. Fishman
Run for the hills! Vandeman is back!
--------------------------------------------------------------
A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian.
Gibbon
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Jarvis
Chris Phillipo wrote in article <5t86b4$beg$1...@news.istar.ca>...
>LLY cared about environmental
>:>issues, you'd attack the primary land users instead of blowing on
endlessly
>:>about MTB's. But that is what you do best, isn't it, Mike? Blow on
endlessly?
>:>
>:>--
>
>We will not see this until these land users get news groups.
alt.pave.the.earth
--
Mike Jarvis
my...@erols.com - MSJa...@aol.com
Chris Phillipo
LLY cared about environmental
:>issues, you'd attack the primary land users instead of blowing on endlessly
:>about MTB's. But that is what you do best, isn't it, Mike? Blow on endlessly?
:>
:>--
We will not see this until these land users get news groups. Mike's
dedication extends only as far as his mouse can click. If his pseudo
environmentalism forced him to leave his chain, he would most likely take up
knitting. I admire your dedication Mikey.
Mike Vandeman
On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:38:32 GMT, ban...@netcom.com (Brad Anders)
wrote:
I went to last year's Altanta games and went to the MTB
.event. In comparison with the humongous expanse that was hacked out for
.the equestrian events, plus the enormous amount of new construction and
.parking lot areas for the overall games, I'd estimate that the new trails
.that were added to existing trails for the MTB event constituted about
.0.0000001% of the total land use. If you REALLY cared about environmental
.issues, you'd attack the primary land users instead of blowing on endlessly
.about MTB's.
I am sure you and the other mountain bikers, who are such strong
environmentalists, are taking care of that for me, with your own
letters to the IOC. That is, if you aren't being hypocritical and just
saying this for effect... :)
Mike Vandeman
On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:10:21 -0400, Matt Wheeler <whee...@icx.net>
wrote:
.> Mike Vandeman wrote:
.> <snip>
.I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
.respond.
Yes. Just another proof of how stupid and hypocritical mountain bikers
are.
PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Either way,
I win. If you don't respond, there is no one to refute what I am
saying. If you DO respond, you PROVE that there is no one to refute
what I am saying! Thanks for once again confirming that you guys
aren't able or willing to respond to the issues with any facts or
rational arguments.
Dave Blake
Attributions are a bit muddled. I left them as
they were in the article I quoted.
mjv...@pacbell.net says...
>Matt Wheeler <whee...@icx.net> wrote:
>.> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>.> <snip>
>.I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
>.respond.
>
>Yes. Just another proof of how stupid and hypocritical mountain bikers
>are.
>
>PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
>
>If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Either way,
>I win. If you don't respond, there is no one to refute what I am
>saying. If you DO respond, you PROVE that there is no one to refute
>what I am saying! Thanks for once again confirming that you guys
>aren't able or willing to respond to the issues with any facts or
>rational arguments.
Please. If anyone wants to go on responding to Mike
Vandeman, please do not retread old ground. Mike
has been posting here for some time, and most of
the arguments have been heard over and over and over
again. As evidence of this, do a search on
www.dejanews.com for the subject vande* or the
author vand* in rec.bicycles.off-road. To be blunt,
it is getting old, and the point of the newsgroup
(any newsgroup) is not to repeat the same arguments
over and over...
We have even compiled a FAQ of Mike Vandeman. It
exists at
http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake/vand.html
To be fair, the bicycling Usenet FAQ is at
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/
--
Dave Blake
dbl...@phy.ucsf.edu
http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake/
Jeff Schroetlin
Matt Wheeler wrote:
>
> > Mike Vandeman wrote:
> > <snip>
************************************************************************
I think this mike guy is on to something!!! I've been riding and
racing for about 6 years now and i never knew the devestating effects
that cycling had on the universe!! I told all my MB buddies about the
sports effect on the environment and we have all agreed to contribute to
the downfall of the sport!! We are holding a MB bon fire
at the end of this week...... we are burning our bikes and all the bikes
we can round up before then..... Next we plan to hide out along trails
and kick the shit out of anyone we see riding a mountain bike or people
who look like they may have ridden mountain bikes at sometime during
their pitiful existance!!!! After the extermination of all mountain
bikes and bikers, we plan to use the bodies as fertilizer and food for
all the poor soil dwelling creatures and microbes that have previously
parished via the terror known as "knobbies" or "fat tires". I for one
will not just stand idly by and watch this murderess rampage on the
earth's germ population...... I say death to the mountain bikers!!!!
As for the erosion...... why those knobby tired bastards should all be
damned to hell!! I've done extensive research on this matter and I've
found that all erosion is directly caused by satan's sport (mountain
biking). For example the Grand Canyon used to a luscious grassland
until a demon posessed medicene man from an ancient Native American
tribe envisioned and later started the mountain biking holocaust. The
exact trail that this medicine man rode every day has been eroded over a
mile deep in some places!! Death to mountain biking!! Another case
occured thousands of years ago in the western part of South Dakota.....
today this area is called the Badlands. These are terrible examples
that show MBing's devestating effects on the environment. If these
bastards are not stopped immediatly, the entire world will be eroded to
its core and we will all die of 3rd degree burns (which really hurt!)!!
So hail to mike!! Lets all work together to end the terrible reign of
mountain biking!!! Death to mountain biking!!!1
***********************************************************************
The above is only sarcasm. But seariously.... Mike get a life and fight
for our environment in some other way. When it comes to protecting the
environment, i think that mountain biking is the least of our worries.
Jeff
Eugene Chan
Don't you mean "Run to a densely populated urban area"?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian.
> Gibbon
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Eugene Chan
ec...@csus.com
Blaine Bauer
Petras Avizonis (Pepi) wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, what does this guy have his Ph.D. in?
> He seems to really push the fact that he has one as if it would lend
> credence to his fanatical perspectives.
He got a PhD in psychometrics (psychological testing) in 1972 (or
thereabouts). He's never indicated that he's actually gotten a job using
this degree as far as I know. He doesn't often publish his degree
because it has nothing to do with his "cause".
> Pizza Hut Delivery?
Might as well be.
> Although I'm fairly new to the group, he sure seems to have a negative
> perspective on life.
Ya think? :-)
Blaine
Joe Rizzo
Actually Mike we don't have to refute you. You come across like so many
over other zealous hippocrits charging windmills. I have showed many
people some of your diatribes and the word "nut" always seems to come to
their minds. Don't go away mad.....just go away.
Mike Vandeman <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<33f84986...@news.pacbell.net>...
> On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:10:21 -0400, Matt Wheeler <whee...@icx.net>
> wrote:
>
> .> Mike Vandeman wrote:
> .> <snip>
> .I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
> .respond.
>
> Yes. Just another proof of how stupid and hypocritical mountain bikers
> are.
>
> PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
>
> If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Either way,
> I win. If you don't respond, there is no one to refute what I am
> saying. If you DO respond, you PROVE that there is no one to refute
> what I am saying! Thanks for once again confirming that you guys
> aren't able or willing to respond to the issues with any facts or
> rational arguments.
Joe Rizzo
I hate to say it Matt, but I think you are wrong. I really don't think he
will go away. But I do agree with you. we should just ignore him.
Matt Wheeler <whee...@icx.net> wrote in article
<33F784DD...@icx.net>...
> > Mike Vandeman wrote:
> > <snip>
> I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
> respond. PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
>
>
Petras Avizonis (Pepi)
Just out of curiosity, what does this guy have his Ph.D. in?
He seems to really push the fact that he has one as if it would lend
credence to his fanatical perspectives.
Pizza Hut Delivery?
Although I'm fairly new to the group, he sure seems to have a negative
perspective on life.
Pepi
Mike Vandeman <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<33f65bf2...@news.pacbell.net>...
> August 11, 1997
> Juan Antonio Samaranch
> President, International Olympic Committee
> Chateau de Vidy
> 1007 Lausanne, Switzerland
>
Michael A. Fishman
Eugene Chan wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Fishman" <m...@t10.lanl.gov> wrote:
> >
> > Run for the hills! Vandeman is back!
>
> Don't you mean "Run to a densely populated urban area"?
>
No. I mean the hills. See, the consern Vandeman exhibits for
mountain ecology is of such an enormous extent as to indicate
his unfamiliarity with the above---a form of ''limousine
liberalism'', if you like. So, the chance of him following
where is small.
Kevin LaFortune
"Thus, by simply including mountain biking in the Olympics, you unleash a
tidal wave of people buying mountain bikes, flooding parks and wilderness
areas, and participating in races".
Really?... Do you have some historical precedence or numbers to back up
this statement (i.e. there was a 10% increase in the purchase of bobsleds
after the 1992 Olympics... or the demand for balance beams after the 1976
Olympics resulted in widespread tropical deforestation). Oh, I forgot whom
I was speaking to... Of course you don't.
I seriously doubt that the world mountain biking population was advanced
by any measurable amount as a result of the 1996 Summer Olympics.
First of all, mountain bikes are expensive. Even the department store
variety (along with the department stores they are sold in) are out of the
reach of the majority of the world population.
If the power of television is so strong that it compelled people around the
world to run out and buy mountain bikes, then you should breathe a sigh of
relief. All those "pre-literate" children that got shiny new mountain
bikes after the Olympics probably aren't out squashing Spotted Owls.
Instead, they're riding at local parks.
Did you watch the race, Mike? If you had, you would have noticed that most
of the televised shots of the racecourse resembled a country club or city
park.
The real post-Olympic menace is all the people that took up running. :)
Sneakers are significantly cheaper than mountain bikes. And, if you already
have some or are willing to run barefoot, it's free. Just think of the
masses choking our parks and wildlife areas and the endless
pounding...pounding that "destroys vast numbers of organisms that live in
and on the soil"... not to mention all that well manicured and chemically
enhanced grass.
You know what Mike?
Why don't we just ban the Olympics all together?
After all, Equestrian events exploit horses...
Many of the sports feature "Technological Aids" (fencing, rowing, javelin,
discus, pole vault, skiing, luge, etc.) which are all obvious affronts to
the "simple physical activities" and "spiritual dimensions" of the Olympic
Games...
All of the sports demonstrate mans power over nature... (oh no… can't have
that)
And, the construction of stadiums, racecourses, the Olympic Village and the
throngs of people that they bring result in the death of members of
numerous plant and animal species most of which pass through the
concessions stands on their way to human consumption.
But seriously...
Do you know what has me "shocked, saddened, and embarrassed"? Having to
wade through the sewage that you deposit in this group.
Kevin LaFortune
(I spent the last 10 years riding my mountain bike… And I'm not going to
stop because of the delusions of Dr. Mikey!)
Eugene Chan
If nobody bothers to respond, he'll have to resort to excessive
usenet bombing to get our attention. Just treat his posts as if they
were junk mail. Don't read them and discard them. Junk mail doesn't
really bother me, and MV's post don't (and shouldn't) either.
Eugene Chan
ec...@csus.com
David M. Benson
does have a vaild point. The problem with his post is that he tries and
does enrage people and they keep responding and responding and
responding to the point it get old.
Blaine Bauer
Eugene Chan wrote:
>
> If nobody bothers to respond, he'll have to resort to excessive
> usenet bombing to get our attention. Just treat his posts as if they
> were junk mail. Don't read them and discard them. Junk mail doesn't
> really bother me, and MV's post don't (and shouldn't) either.
>
Or you can read them then delete them. A lot of his stuff is pretty
hilarious if you don't take him to seriously (he really doesn't warrant
taking seriously).
Sometimes its tough to let his slander and twisted logic go unanwered,
but the key is to understand WHY he does it. I believe he LIVES for this
newsgroup. He's so desparate for attention that he absolutely needs us,
because everyone else IGNORES him. Responding to him is giving him
EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS.
Ever wonder why he doesn't bother other newsgroups? Ever wonder why he's
so dead-set against something so innocuous? Ever wonder why he keeps
repeating the same irrelevant arguments, twisted logic, and sheer
hypocracy after being caught at it time and again? This is the only
place he gets the attention he so desparately seeks. A little
hate-speech here, and he gets flooded with e-mail.
Anyone who wants proof of just how much he's ignored should go to
Dejanews, and search through sci.environment for Vandeman, or better
yet, for sprawl (searching for Vandeman mostly turns up his anti-bike
spam). Mike posted one of his pseudo-scientific 'essays' on urban sprawl
on 8/8...in 11 days, NO ONE has posted any replies on Dejanews.
The MTB newsgroups are all he has. I'm not sure what he'd do if WE also
ignored him, but it would be nice to find out.
--
Blaine Bauer *** Take the "DELETE." part out to reply to
me.***
bdb...@geocities.com (Not representing any corporation)
MTB Stories: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/3398
Cycle America/National Bicycle Greenway
In article <01bcac20$70f58200$3c96...@vband.com>, "Joe Rizzo"
<jri...@vband.com> wrote:
> Actually Mike we don't have to refute you. You come across like so many
> over other zealous hippocrits charging windmills. I have showed many
> people some of your diatribes and the word "nut" always seems to come to
> their minds. Don't go away mad.....just go away.
>
> Mike Vandeman <mjv...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
> <33f84986...@news.pacbell.net>...
> > On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:10:21 -0400, Matt Wheeler <whee...@icx.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > .> Mike Vandeman wrote:
> > .> <snip>
> > .I know I'm breaking my own request by doing this, but please don't
> > .respond.
> >
> > Yes. Just another proof of how stupid and hypocritical mountain bikers
> > are.
> >
> > PLEASE! If we ignore him, he'll go away...
> >
(stuff deleted)
I read Mike's original post and found it most informative. I gave up
mountain biking in 1983 when the recumbent bicycle let me renew my love
affair with the road. Long before restrictions were placed on off-road
bikes, I had already begun to question the environmental consequences of
my actions whenever I did it on the dirt. Mike has helped me to understand
why.
Pls undertand, however, that I am not against mtn biking but I agree that
some restraint needs to be exercised with regard to how they are used. I
super respect Mike for bringing this stuff to our attention and caution
that we should consider the message and not the messenger.
--
Attack with L@ve!!
,__ _,
\ |-~~---___ | \
| M a r t i n K r i e g ~---, _/ >
/Director: Int'l Bike Route Directory ~~/ /~| ,'
| 77: Coma/Paralysis/Clinical Death ~) __- \,
/ '79: TransAm Vet Upright - '86: TransAm Vet Recumbent Bicycle,-'
| '94: A W A K E A G A I N Author /_-',~
| http://www.BikeRoute.com/awake.html {
Momentum For The N A T I O N A L B I C Y C L E G R E E N W A Y
TransAm w/us in 2000: Cycle America http://www.BikeRoute.com/
'-,_ __ \
`~'~ \ ,~~~~-~~~~~~~~~, \
\/~\ /~~~`---` | \
\ / \ |
\ | '\'
Chris Phillipo
In message <01bcabf8$e3c66380$888b...@Pepi.thermotrex.com> - "Petras Avizonis
(Pepi)" <pavi...@thermotrex.com>18 Aug 1997 17:02:44 GMT writes:
:>
:>Just out of curiosity, what does this guy have his Ph.D. in?
:>He seems to really push the fact that he has one as if it would lend
:>credence to his fanatical perspectives.
Psychology, mind games are all he knows how to play.
Kevin LaFortune
You know Mikey?... If you follow the wires connecting your computer to
it's ultimate power source, you will probably find a hydroelectric dam, a
fossil fuel fired power plant, or nuclear power plant. So, rest peacefully
in the knowledge that you are probably causing more erosion with your posts
than I do when I'm on my mountain bike.
Don't think to hard about that one and keep the stupidity flowing...
kats
:You know Mikey?... If you follow the wires connecting your computer to
:
cheers to you - i have been riding my bike for 10 years - i know for a fact
i do less damage than your average "tourist" (hiker, biker, travel trailer,
whatever).
Mike's arguments remind me of my crazy aunt's(miss enviroqueen) . She
throws stones and boulders at others, but forgets she drives a vehicle with
a v8 engine and owns a property with an inground pool...
k.
Doug Taylor
cyc...@bikeroute.com (Cycle America/National Bicycle Greenway) wrote:
>(stuff deleted)
>
>I read Mike's original post and found it most informative. I gave up
>mountain biking in 1983 when the recumbent bicycle let me renew my love
>affair with the road. Long before restrictions were placed on off-road
>bikes, I had already begun to question the environmental consequences of
>my actions whenever I did it on the dirt. Mike has helped me to understand
>why.
>
>Pls undertand, however, that I am not against mtn biking but I agree that
>some restraint needs to be exercised with regard to how they are used. I
>super respect Mike for bringing this stuff to our attention and caution
>that we should consider the message and not the messenger.
Excuse me, but his message is an uncompromising and complete BAN of
all off-road biking, not "some restraint" thereof, and a blanket
condemnation of ALL mountain bikers. The message is clearly fanatical
and absurd; the advocate of the message, who endlessly spams bicycle
newsgroups with irrelevant, inaccurate, and inflammatory nonsense, is
clearly a fruit cake.
Doug Taylor
dta...@servtech.com
Blaine Bauer
Cycle America/National Bicycle Greenway wrote:
>
I read Mike's original post and found it most informative. I gave up
> mountain biking in 1983 when the recumbent bicycle let me renew my love
> affair with the road. Long before restrictions were placed on off-road
> bikes, I had already begun to question the environmental consequences of
> my actions whenever I did it on the dirt. Mike has helped me to understand
> why.
Mike's theories are based on misinterpretation of books & articles. I've
read some of his background material and one has to make some wild
assumptions to come to his conclusions. I wouldn't have so much a
problem with Mike's writings if he would be willing to address the
inconsistencies in them. But every time we ask, he disappears. Then he
posts the same stuff with the same shortcomings a month later.
This topic has never been argued objectively on these newsgroups, at
least not in the last couple years since I've been on it. I don't claim
to be objective. Mike is certainly not objective (if he were objective
he'd consider all sides and not call all dissenting opinions "lies").
There have been others who have expressed reasonable concerns about
biking, but often they are attacked by bikers who have become
oversensitive from all of the brow-beating. I truely believe that there
cannot be an objective Usenet discussion on this the way things stand
right now. Its too bad; I have some questions that I'd like to see
answered.
> Pls undertand, however, that I am not against mtn biking but I agree that
> some restraint needs to be exercised with regard to how they are used. I
> super respect Mike for bringing this stuff to our attention and caution
> that we should consider the message and not the messenger.
No one has ever said that restraint shouldn't be used. Its an IMBA
theme. As I'm sure you are aware, 'restraint' is not Mike's theme. His
theme is total elimination.
There are not just problems with the messenger, but also with the
message. They've been discussed several times on this newsgroup, but
Mike's refusal to deal with them indicates that either we are completely
right, or more likely that there are just too many unanswered questions
to draw any real conclusions. I've yet to see how kicking me off a trail
that is entirely hiked makes any difference from a wildlife standpoint.
Matt Wheeler
Doug Taylor wrote:
> Excuse me, but his message is an uncompromising and complete BAN of
> all off-road biking, not "some restraint" thereof, and a blanket
> condemnation of ALL mountain bikers. The message is clearly fanatical
>
> and absurd; the advocate of the message, who endlessly spams bicycle
> newsgroups with irrelevant, inaccurate, and inflammatory nonsense, is
> clearly a fruit cake.
> Doug Taylor
> dta...@servtech.com
Doug, I agree, but Mikey will just come back saying that he didn't say
ALLmountain bikers, he just said mountain bikers. Which is the same to
the rest
of us, but Mikey doesn't think so.
Here's an example for ol' Mikey:
Mountain bikers rule.
All mountain bikers rule.
Same thing. Both sentences state that mountain bikers, as a group, rule.
See
Mikey. Do you understand?
Glenn M. Larson
Mike Vandeman (mjv...@pacbell.net) will forever be remembered as saying:
> I went to last year's Altanta games and went to the MTB
> .event. In comparison with the humongous expanse that was hacked out for
> .the equestrian events, plus the enormous amount of new construction and
> .parking lot areas for the overall games, I'd estimate that the new trails
> .that were added to existing trails for the MTB event constituted about
> .0.0000001% of the total land use. If you REALLY cared about environmental
> .issues, you'd attack the primary land users instead of blowing on endlessly
> .about MTB's.
> I am sure you and the other mountain bikers, who are such strong
> environmentalists, are taking care of that for me, with your own
> letters to the IOC. That is, if you aren't being hypocritical and just
> saying this for effect... :)
> ---
So you're not interested in fighting against land developers,
housing developers building up suburbs, giant shopping malls, and
new sports stadiums, but only against Mtn. Bike Trails? Why are
we so special?
Build a parking lot, but don't let those guys mtn. bike.
--
- Glenn
glarson "AT" cs.uiowa.edu http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~glarson
*** To reply to this message, remove the animal name from the address!
"Matches. Candles. Matches. Candles. Matches. Candles...."
Kevin LaFortune
> I am sure you and the other mountain bikers, who are such strong
> environmentalists, are taking care of that for me, with your own
> letters to the IOC. That is, if you aren't being hypocritical and just
> saying this for effect... :)
Hypocrisy?
Judging from your posts and your article, you would be the expert on bias
and hypocrisy.
For example: According to your article, "by definition, hiking trails are
the minimum size necessary for a person to hike (approx. 18 inches wide).
This would be the "Single-track" that you referred to your letter to the
IOC? So in other words, hikers prefer single-track too. Leaving that
little tidbit out of the letter to the IOC was probably just an oversight,
right?
One thing that you don't usually leave out is your bias against all things
mountain bike. It permeates all of your posts. Take this little snippet
from your beloved article: "Thus, whether mountain bikes or hikers cause
the most damage is irrelevant. Restricting bicycle access is a way of
reducing human impacts on wildlife and wildlife habitat."
If bikers and hikers cause equal levels of damage along established trails,
how did you arrive at the conclusion that the mountain bikes have to go?
Did you flip a coin? Or, did you just jump there based on s