where to start making changes and what kinds.

[Rasczack]

The first thing that needs to be figured out is what kinds of changes
and how drastic they need to be. Do specific people need to be removed
from office or does the office need to be eliminated?

[Kalvis]

All good questions.

For me the most important thing is making MPs honor their pre-election
pledges, otherwise, what is the point of voting based on them.

[james]

I would say the changes need to be drastic. The idea that pressure
can make politicians honour pre-election pledges is not very
realistic. This isn't a new problem - it's been going on for years,
decades, etc... Similarly, removing people from office might bring
slight improvements, but I think it's about more than that.

What is failing is the idea of 'representative' democracy. We need to
think up (or copy) alternative methods for making our voices and
preferences decide political directions, rather than voting once every
4 years to institute new managerial elites (pursuing the same neo-
liberal ideology as the previous managerial elite).

In this sense, I think the bottom up participatory/consensus democracy
of revolutionary Zapatista (EZLN) controlled Chiapas in Mexico is a
model. This relies on an army that defends areas from the Mexican
state, however, which is not something I see as desirable (not to
mention realistic) for this country.

Other models of this type of democracy that exist without such
'protection' are being practised all over the world. I would
recommend people look into the 2001-onward post-economic/financial
crisis Argentina, which produced Worker Controlled Factories (Empresas
Recuperadas) and Neighbourhood Assemblies. Noami Klein and Avi Lewis'
film 'The Take' (or articles by them) is a good starting point, but
there are a lot of valuable short films on Youtube (and long films in
sections). They created their own barter currencies and much more as
well.

Another recommendation is Michael Albert's theoretical work on a
Particiapatory Economy (aka Parecon) - there are books, a good
practical example one is 'Real Utopia' and edited collection by
Spannos.

"Be Realistic, Demand The Impossible" as the students used to say in
'68.

James

[simg]

I'd say the first thing to be figured out is what is actually wrong in
the first place ?

[simg]

and I think part of the answer can be found here:

http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/

?

[Judy]

James,

This sounds interesting. Can you post a list of links to videos and
articles that you think are worth looking at?

[simg]

There are some links and good videos on the positive money site here:

http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/videos/

Positive Money are also cooperating with the people are the New
Economics Foundation

http://www.neweconomics.org/

A really good (but 1 hour long) video about how our current banking
system came about is available here:

http://www.holisticsystems.co.uk/blog/?p=50

That last link is the best video I've seen on the subject. Once you've
seen that, you understand why "everyone" is so obsessed with
economic growth. Also, it becomes clear why the Conservative govt of
the 1980's was so keen to promote home ownership. Home ownership
creates debt (ie mortgages) without which there is no economic growth.

After that, you may (like me) start to have cynical thoughts about
planning laws and why house / land prices are so high when there is
*so much* unused land in the UK.

[simg]

Sorry Judy, just realised you were saying James point was interesting.
I'll shut up ;)

[Judy]

No need to apologise or shut up, simg! Your suggestions are
interesting too! It's good to have links to follow up on any of these
suggestions. :)

[Mike Shaw]

I believe looking into historical, and overseas solutions is a must.
Then we can try to couple them in with modern day solutions for true
representation.

[Saz28]

We need to have some more effective checks and balances within our
political system. A bit like the American one, but with some
improvements to make it even more widely democratic.

On Dec 12, 12:33 pm, Rasczack <rascz...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Simon]

I think it's fair to say that our society works *much* better than the American system?

[Kalvis Jansons]

Not in all respects. Freedom of speech laws in the USA are stronger
than here for example.

[Saz28]

I meant that we should somehow involve people of different ages and
backgrounds. I also think we should have some form of written
constitution.

[Kalvis Jansons]

I agree we should have a written constitution.

[Simon]

maybe in theory. in practice we have much more real freedom than Americans ?

it would be a shame to support any well meaning attempts to "improve" things that threw the baby out with the bath water.

[Kalvis Jansons]

Impressions of freedom depend on what you are doing. Libel laws is
another example where the USA is better than the UK. I agree there
are examples the other way round as well. Define "real freedom".

I don't know what your background is, but I know that most people in
the UK believe they are much more free than they really are. To know
about real freedom, you need to test it.

On 16 December 2010 11:46, Simon <slg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> maybe in theory. in practice we have much more real freedom than Americans ?
> it would be a shame to support any well meaning attempts to "improve" things
> that threw the baby out with the bath water.
>

[Burkhard Heim]

America is certainly more repressive in many regards. It might be better if you're white and middle-class; apart from that it is pretty bad. There's a lot of hardcore sentiment left around - we're quite restrained as a country (though perhaps less free? I don't know.)

Just take policing, for example while the police in the UK are not great, if you translated London in the last month to a big U.S. city, there would be much more brutality. America is still a place where an unarmed, restrained human being can be executed by a police officer (in Oakland/San Francisco, of all places), and to boot that police officer got two years, minus time already served. The recent killings by the Met have not been quite as unprovoked. I would far rather be at a demo with British police than American police.

Speech is more free in the USA, as are libel laws, but do bear in mind that defendants don't get legal costs if they win a case in the USA - that's a good example of their more libertarian freedom. There's a certain amount of freedom taken away when you let the rich and corporations trample all over people who can't afford to defend themselves, and this country is much better at that, with social support (though legal aid has just been hammered - the anti-cuts movement should be protesting that massively). Libel reform is waiting to happen; give it a few more Simon Singh-style cases, and we might get proper change.

The same goes for democracy - it might be that there are more checks and balances in the USA, but it's semi-impossible to get elected without being one of the major parties - they've monopolised it. Britain's moving towards more independence (AV vote next year, let's campaign on that), but there's not been a credible third candidate in the USA since Perot, twenty years ago. There's not a chance in hell that you'd get someone like George Galloway or Caroline Lucas into representation in the USA. Maybe it's only to do with campaign budgets, but I think not. So yeah, I don't think the senate is, for example, much more representative than the House of Lords. There are no blacks, only 17 women, and two-thirds are dollar millionaires (interestingly, they seem to be disproportionately Democrats, even more than whatever the split was in 2009, 60/40 I think).

Oh, and 28 days' detention is a party compared to whatever they've cooked up to replace Guantanamo.

I'm happier to live here, to be honest, and campaign for more free speech (though I think that's going down the shitter, what with the Robin Hood Airport thing and all the hate speech laws) and a better voting and libel system, all achievable goals. Reform in America would reduce liberty to an extent, and would not be met nicely... cf. the kicking and scream about healthcare.

Rambling, it seems to be what I do. Congratulations if you made it this far.

J

[Kalvis Jansons]

A very good post, thanks, and I did get to the end! :)

The important thing is to campaign to make the UK better, where it can
be better.

Just for the record, overall, I would rather live in the UK than the
USA, but there are areas where we can learn from the USA, as we can
also from many other parts of the world.