Xasiklidika - help needed with translations!

[The_Walrus]

I've rather ground to a halt on a thing I was trying to do on my web
site, a translation of the book of Xasiklidika by Suzanne Aulin and
Peter Vejleskov from Greek into English. The text of the book is fairly
easy to translate, since I cheat and use computers. I do that because
I'm a little old to be learning a new language, even though I am still
trying to...

The main problems I run into are-

1/ Shortened forms of words won't work in the translation sites, e.g.
they cope with και εσενα but are defeated by και 'σενα.

2/ Obscure drug slang often fails utterly to translate, you just get
the ordinary translation.

3/ There are 101 other things I should also be doing.

Nobody is likely to want to help with number 3 there. But it would be
interesting to see if we can make some progress on the project as a
co-operative thing. As well as what each song translates into, I'm keen
to add notes about the hidden meanings, jokes, etc that may be lurking
in the songs.

[The_Walrus]

Here's one...

Αργιλές (Α 2)

Αργιλέ μου παινεμένε,
άντε, πού ‘ν’ τα νιά- τα νιάτα μας,
καημένε;
Ναι, που σε γιόμιζα μαυράκι
για να σπάσω νταλγκαδάκι.

Μίλα και συ καλάμι μου,
ντερβίση μου κι αλάνι μου.
Τι θα γενεί (Το χάλι) μου,
πες μου και συ καλάμι μου, καλέ μου.

Αργιλέ μου, πάρε βολτα,
άντε, για να θυ - να θυμηθώ τα πρώτα.
Μαζί τα λέγαμε
τα βάσανά μας κι όλο κλαίγαμε, το παιδί
μου.

Λουλά μου Και συ τραβηχτό, Χ 2
της τύχης μού ‘τανε γραφτο
μαύρα είν’ τα μάτια π’ αγαπώ, καλέ μου.

Πέντε μάγκες συζητούνε,
αργιλέ μου, να σε πιούνε,
τον μπαγλαμά να πιάσουνε
ώσπου να χαρμανιάσουνε, το παιδί μου.

Και στο μπαρμπούτι να ριχτούν Χ 2
ωσότου να καθαριστούν,
τον αργιλέ να θυμηθούν, αργιλέ μου.

- Γεια σου, Στελλάκrι μου!

- Γεια σου, Μαργαρώνη με το κανονάκι.
(σου)!

[The_Walrus]

Here's another...

Γεντί Κουλέ (Α 3)

Πέρα στο Γεντί Κουλέ στα κάστρα
στον πόνο τους σφιγμένοι μέρα νύχτα
τραγουδούν
ντερβισάδες, κι οι καρδιές
βαρυγκομούν.

Πέρα ‘κεΙ στις φυλακές κλεισμένος κι
εγώ
για σένα, καρδιοκλέφτρα, το σεβντά μου
τραγουδώ
με λουλάδες μαστουρώνω και μεθώ.

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
θρηνώ,
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μόυ τραγουδώ.

Πέρα στο Γεντί Κουλέ ακούς μια φωνή,
και παίζει το μπουζούκι με καημό να
τραγουδεί
στο σκοτάδι μια αγάπη να θρηνεί.

Μέσα ‘δώ στις φυλακές (χίμαιρες) περνώ
με στεναγμό και πόνο το σεβντά μου
τραγουδώ
και (ματώνω), μαστουρώνω και μεθώ.

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
θρηνώ
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μου τραγουδώ.

- Γεια σου, Παπασιδέρη μου, γεια σου!

[chrysafis]

walrus, can I call you wally? :)
any links to the book?
Which specific words in the lyrics listed do you want translated? Or
is it the whole song?
I think if we all focus on a particular word we can come up with a
translation (and then move to the next one).

btw, I would be on the learning rather than teaching side of the
equation myself but you never
know, I might know a word or two.

[AKRITAS]

I can help you too...

[The_Walrus]

The parts of the book I have translated so far are here...
http://www.btinternet.com/~christopher.blackmore/rebetiko/hasiklidika/preface.html

I intended to translate all the songs, completely, and put them up on
my site with commentary, but there are always interruptions...

[The_Walrus]

I'm glad to hear you can help, lots of help is needed, as there are
about fifty songs to do...

[AKRITAS]

We should start with a glossary of all the rebetika/magga - hashish words:  ntalga, spaw ntalga, loula, kalami, xarmani, etc, etc... 

 

I think I have some vague idea of what these mean, but it would be instructive to many of us - certainly to me - to get a fuller understanding from people on this forum who know... the rest of the Greek is pretty easy.

 

Where can we find the complete Greek text?  Can you give us a link?

[AKRITAS]

Woo-hoo!  50!  Still, they're pretty short.  Once we get a glossary of the terms I described in the last email, it should not take too long...

[The_Walrus]

If you want the complete text, the easy way is to buy the book... I
have scanned quite a lot of it, and OCRed quite a few songs. I thought
I might trickle them onto here slowly, so as to give me time to stick
the joint ;) translation on my site.

We need a new thread for vocabulary lists, so I will make one now...

[mastouras]

Chris, Another thing I find difficult, is to portray the intention of
what people were trying to say - what they meant

Aggalia in Greek = hug in English... put simply...

Aggalia, can also mean "embrace" - (e.g. the warmth of a mother's
embrace) in Greek, we'd still use aggalia - and of course the reverse
happens...

Why I say that's an issue, is that it depend firstly on the translation
the person reading the text makes for themselves (a lot of my Greek
Aust friends looked at me twice
when I gave them the embrace example, amazed at my audacity to try &
say English is more complicated a language than Greek (I was saying
nothing of the sort, just pointing out to them, that translating /
interpreting is hard to do properly...) I see translations & every
now & then I say "they got it back to front" (a rembetika song recently
actually, but can't remember which).. Another was where I used a
program to translate an interview.. In Greek it said Apo thn ora pou
azrhizan na tragoudane, den serbirame, mono krasi opios ithele
sikonountan kai eperne monos...." In English it translated to "from
the moment they would begin to sing, we served, only wine to those who
wanted..." (I can't remember how the translated line ended The REAL
translation is that from the moment the singing started, we stopped
serving.. only wine, those who wanted would get up & serve
themselves...." They weren't the types of examples I was thinking of
though... more to do with interpreting emotion / meaning & then
expressing it again in a different language, i.e. English... I think
it's hard to keep the consistency

But, it's damn worth it ! You're Greek sounded pretty okay to me on
the Hydra cd (mou klepse to krasi !), so let's not pretend that you'd
miss something simple..,. It's the deeper stuff we're talking about,
which just needs to be treated with a bit of care so we don't "lose
it's soul" A consistent glossary to refer to for all translations
would be good to use/develop like suggested above - what's the best
way someone could help at the moment ?\

John

[The_Walrus]

This is exactly the difficulty. We are dealing with words that are
being used in fanciful ways, and used to imply certain connotations
that the audience would be aware of, and we want to express the
concepts in the song in another language. So, we are starting to do the
impossible, at the very least.

It's worth a look at Umberto Eco's book about the difficulties of
translating literature, if you have it handy at this point.

Anyway... Jedi Kule (even transliteration is hard) -

Πέρα στο Γεντί Κουλέ στα κάστρα
στον πόνο τους σφιγμένοι μέρα νύχτα
τραγουδούν
ντερβισάδες, κι οι καρδιές
βαρυγκομούν.

Over there in Yedi Kule fortress (and we would have a note about this
infamous prison)
in their pain squeezed day night singing (I'm getting nowhere here,
somebody help!)
dervishes whose hearts heavy-something.

Πέρα ‘κεΙ στις φυλακές κλεισμένος κι
εγώ
για σένα, καρδιοκλέφτρα, το σεβντά μου
τραγουδώ
με λουλάδες μαστουρώνω και μεθώ.

Over there something locked in prison and I
because of you, heart-stealer, my heart-ache sings
with bowls I get stoned and intoxicated. (Bowls or mouthpieces? No
matter!)

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
θρηνώ,
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μόυ τραγουδώ.

Because of you lifelong in Yedi Kule I lament,
Alas alas, my heart-ache I sing.

Πέρα στο Γεντί Κουλέ ακούς μια φωνή,
και παίζει το μπουζούκι με καημό να
τραγουδεί
στο σκοτάδι μια αγάπη να θρηνεί.

Over there in Yedi Kule listen to the voice,
and play a sorrowful song on the bouzouki,
in the darkness he sings of love. (Wild guess.)

Μέσα ‘δώ στις φυλακές (χίμαιρες) περνώ
με στεναγμό και πόνο το σεβντά μου
τραγουδώ
και (ματώνω), μαστουρώνω και μεθώ.

Inside here in prison (chimeras) I pass through
with sighs and pain I sing of my heart-ache
and (ματώνω ?) I get stoned and intoxicated.

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
θρηνώ
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μου τραγουδώ.

Because of you lifelong in Yedi Kule I lament,
Alas alas, my heart-ache I sing.

Now, who will fix the rough bits of that, and the words I can't find
out?

[AKRITAS]

OK, so will that be the procedure will be to work on the songs you trickle on... that's fine.

[AKRITAS]

OK, here's my first crack at it.  The problem is that a lot of the words are borrowed foreign words, Turkish mainly I suppose, which have passed into Greek usage.  When I was younger, many of my friends had grandparents who had left Turkey in '22 and who sprinkled in lots of Turkish along with the Greek they spoke.  Not too many of those old-timers left anymore.

 

In a library once, I saw a dictionary of Turkish words and expressions that had passed into Greek - that would be very useful for this work.....

The_Walrus <wal...@doctor-dark.co.uk> wrote:

It's worth a look at Umberto Eco's book about the difficulties of
translating literature, if you have it handy at this point.

Give me the title - I would like to look at it. 

 

The difficulties of translating these songs will be not only the xasiklidika terms and the Turkish expressions but also coming up with a lyrical rendering.... I tend to favor looser translations that flow and convey the meaning rather than try to go literal and word-for-word - what is your approach?

Anyway... Jedi Kule (even transliteration is hard) -

"Yienti Koule" is probably more like its pronounced because you do hear a slight "n" sound when the Greek "nt" = "d" is in the middle of a word.  

 

Î Î­Ï Î± στο Γεντί Κουλέ στα ÎºÎ¬ÏƒÏ„Ï Î±
στον πόνο τους σφιγμένοι Î¼Î­Ï Î± Î½Ï Ï‡Ï„Î±
Ï„Ï Î±Î³Î¿Ï…Î´Î¿Ï Î½
Î½Ï„ÎµÏ Î²Î¹ÏƒÎ¬Î´ÎµÏ‚, κι οι ÎºÎ±Ï Î´Î¹Î­Ï‚
Î²Î±Ï Ï…Î³ÎºÎ¿Î¼Î¿Ï Î½.

Over there in Yedi Kule fortress (and we would have a note about this
infamous prison)
in their pain squeezed day night singing (I'm getting nowhere here,
somebody help!)
dervishes whose hearts heavy-something.

 

Over in the prisons of Yienti Koule,

the dervishes sing day and night

in painful anguish,

and with heavy hearts.

(I don't know about this word "barygkomoun" - its a verb, combination of a Greek word and a non-Greek word)

Î Î­Ï Î± ‘κεΙ στις φυλακές κλεισμένος κι
εγώ
για σένα, ÎºÎ±Ï Î´Î¹Î¿ÎºÎ»Î­Ï†Ï„Ï Î±, το σεβντά μου
Ï„Ï Î±Î³Î¿Ï…Î´ÏŽ
με λουλάδες Î¼Î±ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï…Ï ÏŽÎ½Ï‰ και μεθώ.

Over there something locked in prison and I
because of you, heart-stealer, my heart-ache sings
with bowls I get stoned and intoxicated. (Bowls or mouthpieces? No
matter!)

 

I'm (locked up / trapped / stuck) in those prisons too,

because of you, you (heart-breaker / heart-thief),

I sing my heartache

and get drunk and stoned with a couple of bowls.

 

I don't know this word "to sebnta" - clearly a non-Greek word.  It means "heartache"?

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
Î¸Ï Î·Î½ÏŽ,
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μόυ Ï„Ï Î±Î³Î¿Ï…Î´ÏŽ.

Because of you lifelong in Yedi Kule I lament,
Alas alas, my heart-ache I sing.

 

Because of you, I'm a "lifer" in Yienti Koule, and I weep,

Aman, aman, I sing my heartache.

 

I would leave certain words as they are:  "aman" is one of them. 

Î Î­Ï Î± στο Γεντί Κουλέ Î±ÎºÎ¿Ï Ï‚ μια φωνή,
και παίζει το Î¼Ï€Î¿Ï…Î¶Î¿Ï ÎºÎ¹ με καημό να
Ï„Ï Î±Î³Î¿Ï…Î´ÎµÎ¯
στο σκοτάδι μια αγάπη να Î¸Ï Î·Î½ÎµÎ¯.

Over there in Yedi Kule listen to the voice,
and play a sorrowful song on the bouzouki,
in the darkness he sings of love. (Wild guess.)

 

Over in Yienti Koule, you can hear a voice

which plays the bouzouki with anguish,

and in the darkness, sings and weeps of one he loved.

Μέσα ‘δώ στις φυλακές (Ï‡Î¯Î¼Î±Î¹Ï ÎµÏ‚) Ï€ÎµÏ Î½ÏŽ
με στεναγμό και πόνο το σεβντά μου
Ï„Ï Î±Î³Î¿Ï…Î´ÏŽ
και (ματώνω), Î¼Î±ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï…Ï ÏŽÎ½Ï‰ και μεθώ.

Inside here in prison (chimeras) I pass through
with sighs and pain I sing of my heart-ache

and (ματώνω ?) I get stoned and intoxicated.

 

Here in these jails, I sigh

and see things that are not there,

with pain I sing of my heartache,

I bleed and get drunk and stoned. 

Για σένα ισοβίτης στο Γεντί Κουλέ
Î¸Ï Î·Î½ÏŽ
αμάν αμάν, το σεβντά μου

[The_Walrus]

Oops! You are inserting Greek text a different way and it displays as
garbage characters. I have tried the usual view/encoding thing in IE
but no luck, even though the stuff I did displays fine. How did you do
it?

http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/translate/ecou1.htm "Experiences
in Translation" by Umberto Eco.

I think there may be a case for presenting both a literal and a flowing
translated version.

Did I miss any points?

[AKRITAS]

στον πόνο τους σφιγμένοι

 

some other ideas for this: 

 

"wrapped up in their pain"

"locked in their pain"

"trapped in their pain"

"racked in pain"

"in anguish with their pain"

 

[The_Walrus]

Now the other one...

[AKRITAS]

The_Walrus <wal...@doctor-dark.co.uk> wrote:

Oops! You are inserting Greek text a different way and it displays as
garbage characters. I have tried the usual view/encoding thing in IE
but no luck, even though the stuff I did displays fine. How did you do
it?

I didn't write in Greek fonts - I wonder why your Greek is showing up and my English is not???  Did you try UNICODE?  That's how I viewed your Greek.  Let me know and if you still can't read it, I will re-send it.

http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/translate/ecou1.htm

"Experiences in Translation" by Umberto Eco.

Thank you - I will read this.

[AKRITAS]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottom got cut off.. don't know why....

 

I think there may be a case for presenting both a literal and a flowing
translated version.

OK but I wouldn't get too terribley academic about it, its not like translating the Bible !

Did I miss any points?

Did you look at the translations?  I think they are a bit smoother without being too loose....   but who knows?  Its a work in progress.... !

[Jack]

Some notes:

βαρυγκωμώ (varygkomo) is a greek word and means anger, resent
...smthing like that

σεβντάς from the tourkish sevda it means heartache as you wrote

i personaly thing "alas" is a quite good translation of "aman"

i dont thing it can be very much improved (at least not anless you
woyld like a more poetic free translation), good job! .

[AKRITAS]

Jack <mla...@freemail.gr> wrote:

Some notes:

Î²Î±Ï Ï…Î³ÎºÏ‰Î¼ÏŽ (varygkomo) is a greek word and means anger, resent
...smthing like that

Cool!  I will look it up when I get home...

 

I was distinguishing between words of foreign origin now used in Greek vs. real Greek words (for example, papoutsi, mprizola etc are all Turkish words long used in Greece) - let's see what the origins of this word are.

 

I have a pretty good collection of Greek lexicons from Ancient, Christian, Medieval and Modern Greek ... don't have that Turkish words in Greek dictionary.

 

Its interesting to watch ancient words change over the millenia.  For example, "mpratso" (from the Italian "braccio") is really the Greek word "braxion" in ancient Greek, which became "brachium" in Latin, "braccio" in Italian, and then back to Greek as "mpratso" ... so, it really is Greek although the form is more Italian. 

σεβντάς from the tourkish sevda it means heartache as you wrote

The Walrus provided that - good one!

i personaly thing "alas" is a quite good translation of "aman"

I like "aman" because it retains the Asia Minor flavor and "alas" sounds, to me, so 19th century...

 

i dont thing it can be very much improved (at least not anless you
woyld like a more poetic free translation), good job! .

Thanks - it is a first attempt and there is always tweaking, etc

[AKRITAS]

I don't know why my messages are being cut off at the bottom.  What I was saying was that it is Chris the Walrus' project and he has final editorial say.  Whatever I translate for this project - if its of use, use it; if not, change it, discard it...  

[The_Walrus]

There isn't actually anything missing from the bottom of the post when
it is displayed here.

Anyway, this is a start...
http://www.btinternet.com/~christopher.blackmore/rebetiko/hasiklidika/SongsA.html

The problem of different browsers fouling up the Greek I fixed with a
graphic. I may cut it into verses and have table data for each verse,
maybe, but it's a lot more work, just to get the verse and its
translation lined up. No more time to play today...

[chrysafis]

"Strangled in their pain"

[AKRITAS]

Bravo!  That's a good one... I like that.

chrysafis <chry...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Strangled in their pain"

[chrysafis]

ok let's try this again, hope this is not a double post, my connection
dropped a minute ago. Posting and reading the group here
takes some getting used to compared to other forums... anyway,

Aman vs. Alas
I've always translated (not literally) Aman to Lord or Oh Lord as
found in Blues music.

[chrysafis]

I also like heart-breaker as Akritis listed instead of heart-thief as
a more 'poetic' translation
as Jack mentioned.

[The_Walrus]

Narghiles

Praise my narghile! (Or bless the thing?)
Come on! Where ‘ν’ τα νιά- our youth, burnt/poor/unfortunate?
Yes, where ?? stuffed with yummy black stuff
??? ?? I break νταλγκαδάκι that's not in my dictionary.
Dalgadaki anyone?

[mastouras]

Αργιλέ μου παινεμένε, - painemene means "praised"
or "revered".. so they're sort of saying "arhgile, praised by all"

άντε, πού ‘ν’ τα νιά- τα νιάτα μας, - Come
on wehere's our youth (ante pou eina ta niata mas)
καημένε; - poor thing
Ναι, που σε γιόμιζα μαυράκι - yes, you
who I filled with black
για να σπάσω νταλγκαδάκι. - to break
(spaso = break), or lose / let loose my ntalgadaki (sorry, will need to
leave this word to somene else...)

[AKRITAS]

 

"na spasw ntalgadaki" 

 

Does anyone have insight into this term?  I think it means to get high, like in the song "Dervisaki" where she sings:  "Aman, dervisaki, pali spa'eis ntalgadaki, mh kapnizeis to mauraki" indicates to me that smoking the black stuff "breaks" the ntalgadaki.  The online Turkish dictionary defines  dalga : billow,surge and I have read it defined as "wave" (hence the singer who was called Dalgas because of the flexibility and waviness of his voice)

 

"ntoumani"

 

duman : smoke.mist, so this means "smoke."  Someone mentioned baglamades with "ntomanotrypes" or smokeholes.... did they smoke through the baglama?  Maybe someone explained that and I missed it...

 

 

Chrysafis wrote:

Aman vs. Alas
I've always translated (not literally) Aman to Lord or Oh Lord  as
found in Blues music

 

Translation is context dependent and so I think you could translate it one way in a certain phrase, and another way in another phrase.  "Lord" or "Oh Lord" probably fits quite well in a number of contexts but maybe not in others - I think you have to be flexible - dalgakibi - to produce good translations. 

 

I prefer to keep "aman" as "aman" because its one of those words one should just learn if one is going to approach this culture, because it retains its Asia Minor flavor, and also because there are a number of important words "amanes / amanedes,"  "kafe-aman" etc which derive from it, and the link helps establish their meaning.

 

 

 

[AKRITAS]

OK - I have learned that the expression "exw ntalga" (I have ntalga) means that one is troubled, worried, etc typically about matters of the heart, etc

 

So, "na spasw ntalgadaki" might mean to forget one's troubles, etc by getting stoned... does that sound right?

[Jack]

Νταλκάς (or νταλγκάς)(dalkas/dalgas)= from the same
turkish word, it means desire, lust, craving etc (like
μεράκι/meraki). Like the turkish translation you postet (in
metapher of coyrse)
Now >Να σπάσω (νταλκά/μεράκι/πλάκα etc) [na
spaso] is an common expressure and means to celebrate/let our self's go
within/lets have some (I can't find an apropriate
translation.....somebody with greater skills should help....(but
carefull: it don't means that "smoking the black stuff "breaks" the
ntalgadaki" "to forget one's troubles, etc". Breaking here has another
meaning like I tried to explain)

Aman to Lord or Oh Lord is good too!

(sorry for the bad grammar)

[AKRITAS]

OK, thanks!  I was trying to "figure it out" and idiomatic slang expressions like these tend to defy logic. 

 

Thanks for the explanation...

Jack <mla...@freemail.gr> wrote:

Πταλκάς (or νταλγκάς)(dalkas/dalgas)= from the same

turkish word, it means desire, lust, craving etc (like

Î¼ÎµÏ Î¬ÎºÎ¹/meraki). Like the turkish translation you postet (in
metapher of coyrse)
Now >Πα σπάσω (νταλκά/Î¼ÎµÏ Î¬ÎºÎ¹/πλάκα etc) [na

[Jack]

And dont forget the nickname of the famous singer Antonis Diamantides
(Dalgas) obviously was given to him because he sang with so much
passion.

[Xemangas]

Tasos Schorelis'rebetic glossary gives:
for dalgas: erotikos kaimos = pain of erotic nature;
for ntoumani: asphystiki athmophera gia kapnous = suffocating smoky
athmosphere

[Xemangas]

dalgadaki= little dalgas= misfare, little trouble (stenochoria) from
erotic origin. Tasos Schorelis, ibid

[AKRITAS]

Nice definitions... where can I find this glossary?

A

Xemangas <caesph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[AKRITAS]

well that's what I was told - that it was a stenochoria related to romantic matters...

[Xemangas]

I'mnow in my office ; on monday I'll give the pecise reference. It's
from the book "Rebetiki anthologia", 4 vol., published by Kedros (I
dont remember now the dates. Also quoted by Petropoulos.

It would be great to create an on-line glossary of rebetic terms, but,
sorry, I have not enough time for my own pleasure. i doulia ine
phylaki.
Somebody else ?
Hara sou, sto kalo

[Xemangas]

Zito sygnomi: the editor is not Kedros, but Plethron, Athens. I have
the third edition. The book contains: Introductions, glossary,
biographies of the musicians, thousand of songs, a lot of photographs;
I think it's better than the Petropoulos 's book