Shades of meaning - κόσμος & ντούνιας (kosmos and dounias)

[oberonsghost]

I've only recently started looking at these songs in detail, and at
times I'm finding the curious argot of the songs a hard work.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on shades of meaning
between the words κόσμος & ντούνιας.

I used to think that they were synonyms, but if they are, why would
Markos say in "Το μπουζούκι στο Παρίσι" " να μάθει ο κόσμος κι ο
ντουνιάς τις τόσες ομορφιές σου."

Look forward to any thoughts you all might have.

M

:-)

[Tiffany D]

Can anyone either send me these songs or tell me the Greek names?
Many times, I don't even know those, but since they're from Markos, I
have probably heard the song. I'm wondering what Spiros can make of
it since he does know some koutsavakika. If all else fails, I can
tease him with some new vocabulary as I did with Nikos o Trelakias and
a few other songs. *smile*

Thanks,
Tiffanitsa

[Fabian Philippoussis]

2008/7/19 Tiffany D <tiffa...@gmail.com>:

[Fabian Philippoussis]

...could also possibly mean: to the people and the world or to the people around the world

2008/7/19 Fabian Philippoussis <fabian...@gmail.com>:

[Fabian Philippoussis]

...do not forget that poets and wordsmiths need to sometimes sculpt the phrasing to fit just right...

2008/7/19 Fabian Philippoussis <fabian...@gmail.com>:

[levantis]

well, o kosmos is the world and also all the people, the whole world.
o douniás means the same (the world) but is of arabic origin.

On 19 Jul., 16:39, "Fabian Philippoussis" <fabianospi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ...do not forget that poets and wordsmiths need to sometimes sculpt the
> phrasing to fit just right...
>

> 2008/7/19 Fabian Philippoussis <fabianospi...@gmail.com>:
>
> > ...could also possibly mean: to the* people* and the world or to the *
> > people* around the world
>
> > 2008/7/19 Fabian Philippoussis <fabianospi...@gmail.com>:
>
> >> 2008/7/19 Tiffany D <tiffani...@gmail.com>:

>
> >> Can anyone either send me these songs or tell me the Greek names?
> >>> Many times, I don't even know those, but since they're from Markos, I
> >>> have probably heard the song. I'm wondering what Spiros can make of
> >>> it since he does know some koutsavakika. If all else fails, I can
> >>> tease him with some new vocabulary as I did with Nikos o Trelakias and
> >>> a few other songs. *smile*
>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Tiffanitsa

[Nikos A. Politis]

Kosmos and Dounias are synonyms (latter of course Turkish, I don’t
know if it’s Arabian too). There are no rules on when to use the one
or the other word but an uneducated person will try not to use the
latter when in conversation with the educated ones since it is a bit
more slang. Also, dounias is perhaps more “poetic”. It is very
common in Greek folk poetry to use two synonyms together, sometimes to
emphasise or simply because the rime gets easier so. (example: Griva
m', se thelei o vasilias, olos o kosmos ki o dounias (mid 19th c.) or,
i mia vara ton tamboura, i alli to bouzouki (probably 18th c. and both
girls play the same instrument).

[eva.b...@gmail.com]

Hi everyone,

Just back from a very relaxing vacation in Greece! "Dounias" is indeed
a word of Arabic origin, which passed into the Turkish language and by
way of Turkish also entered Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunya

I agree with Nikos that there aren't any strict rules when to use
"dounias" or "kosmos", but in my experience, modern-day Greeks will
rather use "kosmos" than "dounias" in their everyday speech, although
I'm sure that for the older generations (of Asia Minor refugees
especially), "dounias" would be as familiar and common as the Greek
"kosmos". There might also be a sociolinguistic dimension... words
that derive from (ancient) Greek are often associated with the speech
of the educated upper and middle classes, while words that derive from
Turkish or Arabic are associated with the "folk", that is, the lower
classes. That, together with the "poetic" connotations, might be the
reason why a poet like Tasos Livaditis used "dounias" when he wrote
the lyrics to Theodorakis ""Vrechi stin ftochogitonia" ("ach psefti
kai adike dounia"...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0vAp47w4iA

On the other hand, Kazantzidis, "the singer of the folk" ("o
tragoudistis tou laou"), in the song "Yalinos kosmos" ("World of
glass", lyrics by Eftichia Papagiannoupoulou, if I'm not mistaken),
sings "ach vre kosme yaline":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVu4QzJZ6ek

Also, as Nikos notices, in Greek folk music, there is often a tendency
to repeat the same thing/concept with different words, for emphasis or
simply as a "ready-made" expression that makes it easier to make up
lyrics that will fit the chosen melody.

Best, Eva

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[eva.b...@gmail.com]

Hi again,

I forgot to say that the expression "kosmos kai dounias" in many
contexts just means "lots of people", the repetition stressing the
mass of people. The same thing with the expression "chronia kai
zamania" (years/time in Greek and Turkish), which means "a long time",
for example, "exw chronia kai zamania na ton dw" (which roughly means
"it's been many years since we met the last time", if I'm not
mistaken). Incidentally, while we're at the subject of etymology, the
Hebrew word for time is "zman" , "zmanim" in plural (maybe the Turkish
zaman is a semitic loan word, who knows!).

Eva

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[Aylin Yardimci]

The Turkish word "zaman" indeed is a Semitic loan, most probably from Arabic rather than Hebrew as it means "time" in Arabic as well. So I guess it has followed the same path as "dounias" - from Arabic to Greek via Turkish.

Thanks a lot for the etymological explanations, by the way :)

Aylin

2008/8/4 eva.b...@gmail.com <eva.b...@gmail.com>