Page on Douzenia
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Peter S.
Aug 15, 2011, 12:19:06 PM8/15/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
I had been searching for good information on the douzenia for about a year, and finally found this page on Klika. It shows most of the known douzenia that were used and gives audio clips to show an example.
I have experimented with a bunch of them, and they sound very cool and are a nice change of pace. Of the ones I have tried so far I especially liked the (re sol do) used in Ταξιμ Σερφ. Even if you can't understand much Ellhnika (like me) you can run it through google translatorr and it at least gives you the essential info.
Kales Penies se olous!
--
Peter S. Hansen
--
Peter S. Hansen
AKRITAS
Aug 16, 2011, 9:17:30 PM8/16/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
Nice link - thanks!
I have been learning oud lately with a Palestinian guy, and that is the Arabic tuning for the bottom three strings on the oud: Re-Sol-Do...
I think I will try tuning my trichordo that way!
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Peter S.
Aug 18, 2011, 4:09:00 PM8/18/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the nice feedback, Akritas.
Klika is a great site with a lot of otherwise hard to come by information on Greek music.
Good luck with the oud, it looks like a difficult instrument to learn - it has a truly beautiful sound though!
Peter Semmes-Hansen
tambouras
Aug 22, 2011, 2:47:49 PM8/22/11
to Rebetika
Do you mean the Markos Vamvakaris' Taxim Serf?
In that case someone has made a mistake, although I couldn't access
the Klika page today to check what it says - it sems like the server
is down.
Markos played Taxim Serf on a small bouzouki tuned in F sharp, a major
third higher than "normal" tuning. But as far as I can discern after
countless listenings, there is nothing in that recording to suggest
that he is playing in anything else than standard tuning, ie in this
case F#f# c#c# f#f#.
Markos did indeed make a few recordings in non-D-a-d douzenia - "Skyla
m'ekanes kai liono" is one example, in Aa aa ee, another is a late
(1961?) instrumental entitled "Stou Markou To Koutouki" - "In Markos
Den" - this is a hasapiko played on electric bouzoukia, perhaps by his
sons, but with an acoustic taxim by Markos which is worth listening to
carefully as it certainly holds some surprises regarding tuning.
The "re sol do" - which is given from treble downwards, (whereas I
have given tunings from bass upwards in the comments above) - means
the strings are tuned in fifths. This otherwise classic Turkish saz
tuning is to be heard uniquely on two of the Karapiperis recordings,
Aivaliotiko and Aidiniko.
T
On 18 Aug, 22:09, "Peter S." <mariachi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the nice feedback, Akritas.
>
> Klika is a great site with a lot of otherwise hard to come by information on
> Greek music.
>
> Good luck with the oud, it looks like a difficult instrument to learn - it
> has a truly beautiful sound though!
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:17 PM, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Nice link - thanks!
>
> > I have been learning oud lately with a Palestinian guy, and that is the
> > Arabic tuning for the bottom three strings on the oud: Re-Sol-Do...
>
> > I think I will try tuning my trichordo that way!
>
> > --- On *Mon, 8/15/11, Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com>* wrote:
In that case someone has made a mistake, although I couldn't access
the Klika page today to check what it says - it sems like the server
is down.
Markos played Taxim Serf on a small bouzouki tuned in F sharp, a major
third higher than "normal" tuning. But as far as I can discern after
countless listenings, there is nothing in that recording to suggest
that he is playing in anything else than standard tuning, ie in this
case F#f# c#c# f#f#.
Markos did indeed make a few recordings in non-D-a-d douzenia - "Skyla
m'ekanes kai liono" is one example, in Aa aa ee, another is a late
(1961?) instrumental entitled "Stou Markou To Koutouki" - "In Markos
Den" - this is a hasapiko played on electric bouzoukia, perhaps by his
sons, but with an acoustic taxim by Markos which is worth listening to
carefully as it certainly holds some surprises regarding tuning.
The "re sol do" - which is given from treble downwards, (whereas I
have given tunings from bass upwards in the comments above) - means
the strings are tuned in fifths. This otherwise classic Turkish saz
tuning is to be heard uniquely on two of the Karapiperis recordings,
Aivaliotiko and Aidiniko.
T
On 18 Aug, 22:09, "Peter S." <mariachi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the nice feedback, Akritas.
>
> Klika is a great site with a lot of otherwise hard to come by information on
> Greek music.
>
> Good luck with the oud, it looks like a difficult instrument to learn - it
> has a truly beautiful sound though!
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:17 PM, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Nice link - thanks!
>
> > I have been learning oud lately with a Palestinian guy, and that is the
> > Arabic tuning for the bottom three strings on the oud: Re-Sol-Do...
>
> > I think I will try tuning my trichordo that way!
>
>
> > From: Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Page on Douzenia
> > To: rebe...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 12:19 PM
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I had been searching for good information on the douzenia for about a year,
> > and finally found this page on Klika. It shows most of the known douzenia
> > that were used and gives audio clips to show an example.
>
> > I have experimented with a bunch of them, and they sound very cool and are
> > a nice change of pace. Of the ones I have tried so far I especially liked
> > the (re sol do) used in Ταξιμ Σερφ. Even if you can't understand much
> > Ellhnika (like me) you can run it through google translatorr and it at least
> > gives you the essential info.
>
> >http://www.klika.gr/cms/index.php/ar8rografia/ar8ra/193-ntouzenia-tri...
> > From: Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Page on Douzenia
> > To: rebe...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 12:19 PM
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I had been searching for good information on the douzenia for about a year,
> > and finally found this page on Klika. It shows most of the known douzenia
> > that were used and gives audio clips to show an example.
>
> > I have experimented with a bunch of them, and they sound very cool and are
> > a nice change of pace. Of the ones I have tried so far I especially liked
> > the (re sol do) used in Ταξιμ Σερφ. Even if you can't understand much
> > Ellhnika (like me) you can run it through google translatorr and it at least
> > gives you the essential info.
>
AKRITAS
Aug 22, 2011, 3:07:46 PM8/22/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
Hey, thanks for that info - great stuff! So, what does a "small" bouzouki mean? Something between a regular bouzouki and a tzoura? Shorter neck? I guess you would need different strings for that much tension but can the neck handle it?
Finally, my ear is not the greatest - it seems to me that the only way I can tell the tunings are different is by the open string chords, and also at times, a different sound from the way the strings sympathetically resonate (not that I could tell you what the tuning is, just that its different!) What should I be listening for to hear surprises in the tuning?
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Peter S.
Aug 22, 2011, 11:20:55 PM8/22/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the info, Tambouras. I have never heard of 'Stou Marko To Koutaki", is their a youtube upload of that song?
Thanks again!
--
Peter Semmes-Hansen
Thanks again!
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com.
--
Peter Semmes-Hansen
tambouras
Aug 23, 2011, 10:40:53 AM8/23/11
to Rebetika
I'll answer you both here.
Στου Μάρκου το κουτούκι can be heard on sealabs.
By a smaller bouzouki I mean first of all an instrument with a
significantly shorter neck - if you imagine shortening the neck by 4
frets, you could have raised the pitch by a major third using exactly
the same strings at exactly the same tension with no problems
whatsoever. In the case of Taxim Serf the actual sonority of the
instrument sounds like that of a "normal"-sized bouzouki, to my ear at
least - otherwise, the smaller the body, the more the sound tends to
approach that of a tzouras. If there were any evidence that people had
ever used a capo tasto on a bouzouki in those days I would have had
that as a hypothesis. However, as Markos plays a very high f sharp
which would hardly be available on the fretboard, capo or no capo, I
have completely discarded that hypothesis.
Another point is that you can't raise the pitch of a string of a given
vibrating length beyond a certain point - a point, ie a pitch, which
is determined solely by the specific material of the string and its
length, quite independently of how thick the string is. The thickness
merely determines the total tension needed to reach a certain pitch at
that length, and thus the magnitude of the load on the structure of
the instrument.
As to how to listen - you just have to be microscopic! Listening for
accidentally or intentionally struck open strings is my core method.
It is often the accidentally struck strings which give the game away.
Cheers
T
On 23 Aug, 05:20, "Peter S." <mariachi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Tambouras. I have never heard of 'Stou Marko To
> Koutaki", is their a youtube upload of that song?
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:07 PM, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hey, thanks for that info - great stuff! So, what does a "small" bouzouki
> > mean? Something between a regular bouzouki and a tzoura? Shorter neck? I
> > guess you would need different strings for that much tension but can the
> > neck handle it?
>
> > Finally, my ear is not the greatest - it seems to me that the only way I
> > can tell the tunings are different is by the open string chords, and also at
> > times, a different sound from the way the strings sympathetically resonate
> > (not that I could tell you what the tuning is, just that its different!)
> > What should I be listening for to hear surprises in the tuning?
>
> > many thanks, A
>
> > --- On *Mon, 8/22/11, tambouras <klein.t...@gmail.com>* wrote:
> > On 18 Aug, 22:09, "Peter S." <mariachi...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mariachi...@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > .
Στου Μάρκου το κουτούκι can be heard on sealabs.
By a smaller bouzouki I mean first of all an instrument with a
significantly shorter neck - if you imagine shortening the neck by 4
frets, you could have raised the pitch by a major third using exactly
the same strings at exactly the same tension with no problems
whatsoever. In the case of Taxim Serf the actual sonority of the
instrument sounds like that of a "normal"-sized bouzouki, to my ear at
least - otherwise, the smaller the body, the more the sound tends to
approach that of a tzouras. If there were any evidence that people had
ever used a capo tasto on a bouzouki in those days I would have had
that as a hypothesis. However, as Markos plays a very high f sharp
which would hardly be available on the fretboard, capo or no capo, I
have completely discarded that hypothesis.
Another point is that you can't raise the pitch of a string of a given
vibrating length beyond a certain point - a point, ie a pitch, which
is determined solely by the specific material of the string and its
length, quite independently of how thick the string is. The thickness
merely determines the total tension needed to reach a certain pitch at
that length, and thus the magnitude of the load on the structure of
the instrument.
As to how to listen - you just have to be microscopic! Listening for
accidentally or intentionally struck open strings is my core method.
It is often the accidentally struck strings which give the game away.
Cheers
T
On 23 Aug, 05:20, "Peter S." <mariachi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info, Tambouras. I have never heard of 'Stou Marko To
> Koutaki", is their a youtube upload of that song?
>
> Thanks again!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:07 PM, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hey, thanks for that info - great stuff! So, what does a "small" bouzouki
> > mean? Something between a regular bouzouki and a tzoura? Shorter neck? I
> > guess you would need different strings for that much tension but can the
> > neck handle it?
>
> > Finally, my ear is not the greatest - it seems to me that the only way I
> > can tell the tunings are different is by the open string chords, and also at
> > times, a different sound from the way the strings sympathetically resonate
> > (not that I could tell you what the tuning is, just that its different!)
> > What should I be listening for to hear surprises in the tuning?
>
> > many thanks, A
>
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for the nice feedback, Akritas.
>
> > > Klika is a great site with a lot of otherwise hard to come by information
> > on
> > > Greek music.
>
> > > Good luck with the oud, it looks like a difficult instrument to learn -
> > it
> > > has a truly beautiful sound though!
>
> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 9:17 PM, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=akrita...@yahoo.com>>
> > > Thanks for the nice feedback, Akritas.
>
> > > Klika is a great site with a lot of otherwise hard to come by information
> > on
> > > Greek music.
>
> > > Good luck with the oud, it looks like a difficult instrument to learn -
> > it
> > > has a truly beautiful sound though!
>
> > wrote:
> > > > Nice link - thanks!
>
> > > > I have been learning oud lately with a Palestinian guy, and that is the
> > > > Arabic tuning for the bottom three strings on the oud: Re-Sol-Do...
>
> > > > I think I will try tuning my trichordo that way!
>
> > > > --- On *Mon, 8/15/11, Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mariachi...@gmail.com>>*
> > > > Nice link - thanks!
>
> > > > I have been learning oud lately with a Palestinian guy, and that is the
> > > > Arabic tuning for the bottom three strings on the oud: Re-Sol-Do...
>
> > > > I think I will try tuning my trichordo that way!
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > From: Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mariachi...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > Subject: Page on Douzenia
> > > > To: rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > From: Peter S. <mariachi...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mariachi...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > Subject: Page on Douzenia
> > > > Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 12:19 PM
>
> > > > Hi all,
>
> > > > I had been searching for good information on the douzenia for about a
> > year,
> > > > and finally found this page on Klika. It shows most of the known
> > douzenia
> > > > that were used and gives audio clips to show an example.
>
> > > > I have experimented with a bunch of them, and they sound very cool and
> > are
> > > > a nice change of pace. Of the ones I have tried so far I especially
> > liked
> > > > the (re sol do) used in Ταξιμ Σερφ. Even if you can't understand much
> > > > Ellhnika (like me) you can run it through google translatorr and it at
> > least
> > > > gives you the essential info.
>
> > > >http://www.klika.gr/cms/index.php/ar8rografia/ar8ra/193-ntouzenia-tri
> > ...
>
> > > > Kales Penies se olous!
>
> > > > --
> > > > Peter S. Hansen
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > Hi all,
>
> > > > I had been searching for good information on the douzenia for about a
> > year,
> > > > and finally found this page on Klika. It shows most of the known
> > douzenia
> > > > that were used and gives audio clips to show an example.
>
> > > > I have experimented with a bunch of them, and they sound very cool and
> > are
> > > > a nice change of pace. Of the ones I have tried so far I especially
> > liked
> > > > the (re sol do) used in Ταξιμ Σερφ. Even if you can't understand much
> > > > Ellhnika (like me) you can run it through google translatorr and it at
> > least
> > > > gives you the essential info.
>
> > > >http://www.klika.gr/cms/index.php/ar8rografia/ar8ra/193-ntouzenia-tri
> > ...
>
> > > > Kales Penies se olous!
>
> > > > --
> > > > Peter S. Hansen
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > .
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > .
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > .
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > .
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Rebetika" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Rebetika" group.
> > .
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rebetika+
> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > .
AKRITAS
Aug 23, 2011, 10:55:51 AM8/23/11
to rebe...@googlegroups.com
| Thanks, that makes sense - the body size would correspond to the tambre of the instrument, and all the rest. This has been a very interesting discussion! |
--- On Tue, 8/23/11, tambouras <klein...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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Νίκος Πολίτης
Aug 23, 2011, 2:20:26 PM8/23/11
to Rebetika
Hi again, everybody! Not only is the available information on
douzenia matters not sufficient, it is also not reliable. The Klika
article (Tambouras, keep trying, we indeed have a persisting problem
that comes and goes) mainly bases on the known radio interview of
Keromytis by Sophia Michalitsi. I am afraid, even Keromytis cannot be
seen as 100% reliable. For example, I have not heard of the Isso
douzeni from anyone else but him.
If anyone experiences difficulties with google translation e.g. from
Klika, be it a phrase or a term, I could try to be of help.
On 23 Αύγ, 17:55, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks, that makes sense - the body size would correspond to the tambre of the instrument, and all the rest. This has been a very interesting discussion!
>
> > > > > rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
douzenia matters not sufficient, it is also not reliable. The Klika
article (Tambouras, keep trying, we indeed have a persisting problem
that comes and goes) mainly bases on the known radio interview of
Keromytis by Sophia Michalitsi. I am afraid, even Keromytis cannot be
seen as 100% reliable. For example, I have not heard of the Isso
douzeni from anyone else but him.
If anyone experiences difficulties with google translation e.g. from
Klika, be it a phrase or a term, I could try to be of help.
On 23 Αύγ, 17:55, AKRITAS <akrita...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks, that makes sense - the body size would correspond to the tambre of the instrument, and all the rest. This has been a very interesting discussion!
>
> > > .
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups
> > > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > > rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups
> > > > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > .
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rebetika+
> > > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rebe...@googlegroups.com>
> > > .
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rebetika+
> > > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=unsubscribe@googlegroup...>
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Rebetika" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Rebetika" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rebetika+u...@googlegroups.com.
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > Peter Semmes-Hansen
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Rebetika" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rebe...@googlegroups.com.
Mr. Narghile
Aug 23, 2011, 3:27:41 PM8/23/11
to Rebetika
Tambouras, thanks for sharing your well researched info on tunings.
When will we see your talk from Hydra on the subject?
Nikos,
great to hear from you again! Are you contributing to Klika in some
way?
here's a youtube clip of Στου Μάρκου το κουτούκι:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7vJ5_0eevU
cheers,
dave
When will we see your talk from Hydra on the subject?
Nikos,
great to hear from you again! Are you contributing to Klika in some
way?
here's a youtube clip of Στου Μάρκου το κουτούκι:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7vJ5_0eevU
cheers,
dave
Kriko
Aug 23, 2011, 7:24:04 PM8/23/11
to Rebetika
Thank you for the link ; this song sounds like a story of the
evolution of bouzouki between the 30's and the 60's : some nice taksim
by Markos with an acoustic bouzouki at the beginning, some awful
(imho) restaurant music on electric bouzouki at the end...
evolution of bouzouki between the 30's and the 60's : some nice taksim
by Markos with an acoustic bouzouki at the beginning, some awful
(imho) restaurant music on electric bouzouki at the end...
Odysseas
Aug 27, 2011, 3:08:25 AM8/27/11
to Rebetika
Hahah! Well put.
Interesting stuff guys.
This is a subject I'm very interested in.
Looking forward to further revelations.
I wish I had read it sooner, I could have asked the guys at Kampana in
Thessaloniki.
Oh and here's a link to an old thread on the topic, for what it's
worth.
http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika/browse_thread/thread/84c7d10ec05df580/e654f96990d575b8?#e654f96990d575b8
Interesting stuff guys.
This is a subject I'm very interested in.
Looking forward to further revelations.
I wish I had read it sooner, I could have asked the guys at Kampana in
Thessaloniki.
Oh and here's a link to an old thread on the topic, for what it's
worth.
http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika/browse_thread/thread/84c7d10ec05df580/e654f96990d575b8?#e654f96990d575b8
Odysseas
Aug 27, 2011, 3:13:17 AM8/27/11
to Rebetika
Oh and one other thing...
Does anybody have Vamvakaris' autobiography handy?
I believe he has something to say on the subject if I recall
correctly.
On Aug 27, 2:08 am, Odysseas <meka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hahah! Well put.
> Interesting stuff guys.
> This is a subject I'm very interested in.
> Looking forward to further revelations.
> I wish I had read it sooner, I could have asked the guys at Kampana in
> Thessaloniki.
>
> Oh and here's a link to an old thread on the topic, for what it's
> worth.http://groups.google.com/group/rebetika/browse_thread/thread/84c7d10e...
Does anybody have Vamvakaris' autobiography handy?
I believe he has something to say on the subject if I recall
correctly.
On Aug 27, 2:08 am, Odysseas <meka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hahah! Well put.
> Interesting stuff guys.
> This is a subject I'm very interested in.
> Looking forward to further revelations.
> I wish I had read it sooner, I could have asked the guys at Kampana in
> Thessaloniki.
>
> Oh and here's a link to an old thread on the topic, for what it's
tambouras
Aug 27, 2011, 7:10:02 AM8/27/11
to Rebetika
http://www.youtube.com/user/robinaras#p/a/u/0/_ntU8DwbUPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTsCtVTEGp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pUwCHQ9bMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnOjRRiJHGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jtjHOAuB2U
The ERT radio interview with my teacher Stelios Keromytis by Sofia
Michailitsi, broadcast in 1975, where he demonstrates, among other
things, several douzenia. In his autobiography Markos says that his
recall of the douzenia is somewhat shaky, and that of the old-timers
Keromytis is among the very few who still know them. However neither
Markos nor Keromytis seem to have actively mentioned the douzeni which
Markos used in his recordings of Skyla M'Ekanes Kai Liono and Stou
Markou To Koutouki - ie where the bourgana and mesaki (bass & middle)
strings are tuned to the same note, but with of course an octave pair
in the bourgana, and the kandini (1st string) is tuned a fifth above
the mesaki: that gives A-a a-a e-e and F-f f-f c-c respectively.
Perhaps this was sometimes thought of as Karadouzeni, although this
word is used for other douzenia too, for instance the two fifths
tuning, as mentioned on the klika page. In fact the only two douzenia
which seem to be consistently named by the veterans who said and/or
demonstrated anything on the subject are Arapien (B-b g-g d-d) and
Syriano (B flat-b flat g-g d-d), neither of which have yet to be heard
on original 78 rpm recordings.
The basic pattern for tuning to the main douzenia was to first tune
the middle string down one tone - ie two semitones - so that it is a
fifth instead of a fourth lower than the first string. Then the
bourgana is tuned down in stages.
D-d g-g d-d
where the bourgana is unchanged, was called Isio by Keromytis, though
as Nikos Politis mentions no-one else names it.
C-c g-g d-d
is the two fifths tuning which Stavros Kourousis calls karadouzeni in
the klika article. By the way, that article is 5 years old, and
Stavros and I have had a lot of exciting and fruitful discussions over
the last year which render much of what he said there obsolete - there
will hopefully be some exciting developments to relate here later this
autumn. Turkish saz players do in fact call it karadouzeni.
B-b g-g d-d
Arapien - suitable for Houzam in G for example
B flat-b flat g-g d-d
Syriano - suitable for Sabah in G for example
A-a g-g d-d
Keromytis calls this one karadouzeni and plays ousak. Some Turkish saz
players call it baglama düzen.
Somethng to be going on with?
BTW - Dave - as my discussions with Stavros have obliged me to make
some radical and really fascinating changes to my original hypotheses,
I will not be publishing my talk in its original form and haven't
finalised a version of it yet - perhaps, hopefully, during the
autumn....
T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTsCtVTEGp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pUwCHQ9bMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnOjRRiJHGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jtjHOAuB2U
The ERT radio interview with my teacher Stelios Keromytis by Sofia
Michailitsi, broadcast in 1975, where he demonstrates, among other
things, several douzenia. In his autobiography Markos says that his
recall of the douzenia is somewhat shaky, and that of the old-timers
Keromytis is among the very few who still know them. However neither
Markos nor Keromytis seem to have actively mentioned the douzeni which
Markos used in his recordings of Skyla M'Ekanes Kai Liono and Stou
Markou To Koutouki - ie where the bourgana and mesaki (bass & middle)
strings are tuned to the same note, but with of course an octave pair
in the bourgana, and the kandini (1st string) is tuned a fifth above
the mesaki: that gives A-a a-a e-e and F-f f-f c-c respectively.
Perhaps this was sometimes thought of as Karadouzeni, although this
word is used for other douzenia too, for instance the two fifths
tuning, as mentioned on the klika page. In fact the only two douzenia
which seem to be consistently named by the veterans who said and/or
demonstrated anything on the subject are Arapien (B-b g-g d-d) and
Syriano (B flat-b flat g-g d-d), neither of which have yet to be heard
on original 78 rpm recordings.
The basic pattern for tuning to the main douzenia was to first tune
the middle string down one tone - ie two semitones - so that it is a
fifth instead of a fourth lower than the first string. Then the
bourgana is tuned down in stages.
D-d g-g d-d
where the bourgana is unchanged, was called Isio by Keromytis, though
as Nikos Politis mentions no-one else names it.
C-c g-g d-d
is the two fifths tuning which Stavros Kourousis calls karadouzeni in
the klika article. By the way, that article is 5 years old, and
Stavros and I have had a lot of exciting and fruitful discussions over
the last year which render much of what he said there obsolete - there
will hopefully be some exciting developments to relate here later this
autumn. Turkish saz players do in fact call it karadouzeni.
B-b g-g d-d
Arapien - suitable for Houzam in G for example
B flat-b flat g-g d-d
Syriano - suitable for Sabah in G for example
A-a g-g d-d
Keromytis calls this one karadouzeni and plays ousak. Some Turkish saz
players call it baglama düzen.
Somethng to be going on with?
BTW - Dave - as my discussions with Stavros have obliged me to make
some radical and really fascinating changes to my original hypotheses,
I will not be publishing my talk in its original form and haven't
finalised a version of it yet - perhaps, hopefully, during the
autumn....
T
tambouras
Aug 27, 2011, 2:49:30 PM8/27/11
to Rebetika
And of course
G-g g-g d-d is the last one in the series - the one I mentioned above
that Markos recorded twice, in A and in F.
T
G-g g-g d-d is the last one in the series - the one I mentioned above
that Markos recorded twice, in A and in F.
T
Νίκος Πολίτης
Sep 4, 2011, 5:06:14 PM9/4/11
to Rebetika
Dave, Klika and rembetiko.gr are “brothers” or, if you wish, son and
father. Klika has been set up by members of the rembetiko forum,
where I help as a moderator. I also contribute with articles in Klika
whenever I have something to say. Some ten days ago, we had a severe
problem with the rembetiko.gr platform, which also serves klika.
Tony, how about trying to have your anxiously expected new information
on douzenia presented in Hydra this October?
father. Klika has been set up by members of the rembetiko forum,
where I help as a moderator. I also contribute with articles in Klika
whenever I have something to say. Some ten days ago, we had a severe
problem with the rembetiko.gr platform, which also serves klika.
Tony, how about trying to have your anxiously expected new information
on douzenia presented in Hydra this October?
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