Member of the group

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

Hello,

Can you add me as a member of the organisation?

https://github.com/Nerian

And what abilities do we have as a group? I can do server side programming with RoR.

Thanks

[Antonio Pardo]

I can work with Ruby too.

Ciao

El 23/05/11 16:41, Bertrand Mattos escribió:
> I'm also a server side programmer PHP/ZEND.
>
> Loving the portal ideas...
>
>
> 2011/5/23 Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz <sio...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sio...@gmail.com>>

--
Antonio Pardo
National Freaks Bureau
Web: http://about.me/apardo
Tel: (+34) 668 802 483

[Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta]

Of course, everyone is welcomed not only as a member but to
participate not only discussing but in Pivotal and Github

https://github.com/DemocraciaReal/RealDemocracy
https://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/295165/settings

Oh, and Bertrand maybe I forgot to mention but the project is mean to
be made with Ruby on Rails, I started the original tread on RoR
(Spanish):
https://groups.google.com/group/ror_es/browse_thread/thread/d8c641ec1b6d3055?hl=es
But we are always glad to get any help.

So, Welcome to everyone!


On 23 mayo, 16:36, Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz <siot...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta]

Ooops I forgot to mention what abilities do we have as a group.

We are only begining but for know it seems we have both programmers
(RoR mostly), UI designers, and mixed profiles. I'm trying to bring
non technical profiles to use their help to make the site as usable
and fair as possible, people with psychology and/or politics knowledge
would be very valuable.

If you know about more people that could be useful, don't ask, please
bring them!

On 23 mayo, 16:36, Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz <siot...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

A project website would be nice to attract more people to the project. A centralised site where we can show what we are about. A community.

We should start a blog. I can launch a blog in a few minutes with Jekyll and Github. I use Jekyll in my blog. 

http://nerian.github.com/

https://github.com/Nerian/nerian.github.com

Committing new post is just a matter of commit a new file in the _posts folder. What do you think? 

PD: By member of the organisation I mean the Github Democracia Real Organisation, so I can commit code and such :)

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

The RealDemocracy movement is really strong at twitter. I think that we can gather a lot of support if we create a twitter account and start moving :)

Also, the very thing we are doing, discussing features is what the application we want to develop should support. So I think we can do a fast prototype and start discussing there and see how it behaves.

El 23/05/2011, a las 17:06, Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta escribió:

[Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta]

Yep, I think so too. But I would like to have something more refined
before publishing it on the main sites. Mainly because it may be more
succesful to wich we can handle now and therefore chaotic and secondly
because people could get upset waiting for something tangible.

About the blog, I believe that we should use our designers to do
something carefully crafted with lots of useful images to make the
information more accesible and understanable.

On 23 mayo, 17:21, Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz <siot...@gmail.com>

[Alfonso]

I would like to contribute to the project, it's a very good idea for
me as I'm starting with rails and at the same time I can learn
programming for a nice aim :). Hope there is room for me in this
project.

On 23 mayo, 23:29, Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta <sauc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta]

Welcome Alfonso

[Canx]

Hi,

I've been following AgoraonRails project efforts for a quite long time
and I'm also interested in this project. I would like to see (and
help) with basic wireframes to understand better what differs and have
in common both apps. Maybe AgoraonRails team would be glad to
collaborate and extend their app to these new needs.


On 24 mayo, 12:02, Rafa D. Latorre López Villalta <sauc...@gmail.com>

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Hi Canx, pleased to meet you! And your help is very welcomed

I haven't a deep understanding of how AgoraOnRails works so sorry if my impresions are wrong:

AgoraonRails at first sight seems to have the same goal that RealDemocracy, make people able to take part on guvernamental decisions, but differs on its main public.

As its now AgoraonRails would be aiming to people with a lot of interest to participate on the tiniest bit of every political decision, making them able to participate or at least to share their opinion about the amendments/laws/bulletins that materialise those decisions.

I believe that people with such courage and patience to participate on such different themes (enviromentals, economics, education, etc) and to read that many laws are the fewer, in my opinion most public prefers to simply support general ideas like "more green energies" and to participate more deeply on those fields that are of his interest or speciallity.

The idea in RealDemocracy would be that people simply support those general ideas and if they are interested they can get deeper and participate or simply learn about more accurate details. The most detailled level would be like the proposals that Agora on Rails provides.

The other difference is how information changes in the page. Agora on Rails seeks new amendments in wich users could participate, what Real Democracy seeks is consensus to make reasonable action plans and to make evident good points and bad points of every proposal.

This could be simply a good way to make an electoral programme by both participation and reason

 

2011/5/27 Canx <canc...@gmail.com>

[Canx]

Hi Rafa,

I like your idea of having a problem/solution phase to avoid
opinionated decisions. I see it something like this:

1. Detecting problems in a proposal.
2. Comment and vote if that problem is real or not.
3. Try to fix problems with a candidate solution.
4. Comment and vote which solution is acceptable.
5. Vote for the new modified proposal or not.
6. More iteration between 2 and 4 :) till acceptance levels are ok, or
deadline arrives.
7. Maybe create an ILP?

This is an improvement over the simple binary decission and static
proposal strategy which is used in AgoraOnRails.

As I see you're idea is leverage people to create collaboratively new
proposals, while AgoraOnRails is aimed to vote proposals created by
politicians. I don't see why this two ideas couldn't be combined in a
more complete app.

The main difference between politicians and people proposals is that a
politician proposal is in it's origin at a more complicated level of
understanding. Legal stuff made by politicians are very unintelligible
by common people like us. In RealDemocracy people could create simple
proposals and they would get refined with time.

To apply the refinement phase to a proposal law made by politicians it
could be better have another phase of understanding of the meaning of
a proposal. This could be get done collaboratively, maybe something
like this:

1. A politic group publish a proposal law.
2. People read the text and classify it with tags.
3. People try to associate it with other proposals
4. People select the important parts of the text.

Now, reading tags and the important text it could be easy to do the
problem/solution phase.

So I think your vision is quite an improvement over the static
proposals in AgoraOnRails, but one advantage of AgoraInRails is that
connects people with real proposals that affects them directly. So
why don't combine the two ideas?

Regards,
Ruben.

On 27 mayo, 19:06, rafael latorre lopez villalta <sauc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2011/5/27 Canx <canch...@gmail.com>

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Great Ruben, totally agree. In fact I've been these days thinking about it without reaching a satisfactory solution untils yours has come, wich is great.

There are some minor disagreements tough:

* I believe that firstly we should focus on the first ideas. Make them pretty and usable and try to test them them. And only then begin with new modules.

* I still see AgoraonRails as a great app, and their development team surely must be proud of his child. So instead of triying to mix both ideas, why don't we try to continue on our own projects but build tools to make possible the interactions you suggested between plattforms?

* People proposals can be much more detailed and technical than the politics ones, I've read and participated trough a lot of projects with political proposals and most of them use legal terms only to cover their ineptitude on technical themes, in many of them reaching to surrealistic situations such as a bad project would be much more punctuated than a good one only because of legal details. I believe that this plattform combination may enable the writting of better proposals (this is more a punctualization than a disagreement :D )

I still believe that we should stick with main ideas but since we've already begun discussing further ideas I would like to ask for help with this one:

Every government has limited resources, and every proposal would have a cost (sometimes these costs could be social or enviromental instead of economic) so chosing the proposal should be done taking in account not only supports but costs. How could we make aware to users about it and make them able to choose the best proposal mix?

2011/5/28 Canx <canc...@gmail.com>

[Canx]

It's difficult to stick with main ideas when you start to imagine the
power of a real democracy! :)

I have no time to answer now but I'll give a link to a book to provide
some inspiration:

http://odbook.stanford.edu/


On 28 mayo, 12:01, rafael latorre lopez villalta <sauc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2011/5/28 Canx <canch...@gmail.com>

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

I see two apps here:

* A greenhouse -> RealDemocracy
* A packaging factory -> AgoraonRails

So Real Democracy is where new ideas are born. And AgoraOnRails is where those successful ideas are packaged into legalese

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Wow gonzalo, greatly and briefly explained, just like I would like proposals should be on their top level :D 

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

I am glad I understood it well. We could have a service oriented architecture, shared between the two apps. So basically we can build an API that then both app would use. The two applications would be nothing more than two clients that consume the API. 

What do you think?

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Wikipedia saved me again, didn't know what a SOA was.

I totally agree with you, that's should be the path. 

But as I have said, we should firstly build a very robust, fool-proof and even troll-proof proposal system, later we can get on those APIs.

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

Let build a dirty prototype today with what we have agreed.

* People can create proposals.

* People can either vote up a proposal or a problem within that proposal.

* People can create problems inside proposals.

I think we can use a realtime chat system; is Skype ok? or maybe an irc.

Are you free now to develop? And you Canx?

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Today i'm not avaliable, I'll be leaving soon, but I'm permanently connected and I'm loving this project so I cannot avoid to answer.

Could we do it tomorrow afternoon? At 18:00 for example?

Comunicating trough Skype o Google Talk should be OK

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

Oks! tomorrow we start then. I will create now the project and specs.

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

There you go:

https://github.com/DemocraciaReal/propotype

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

Damn.   I've just gotten very ill and im not able eve to move from my bed, I cant go to the meeting, sorry, a lot

[Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz]

No problem. We will do it other day.

Take care, I drink a lot of sopas españolas :)

[Fernando]

Hi guys,

Wovw,I see that this is starting to get going. I have experience with
Ruby and have a couple of small Rails projects behind me. This project
idea looks awesome and I will be glad to contribute.

Cheers,
Fernando

On 29 mayo, 17:07, Gonzalo Rodríguez-Baltanás Díaz <siot...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[rafael latorre lopez villalta]

And we will be glad to have your help, welcome Fernando!

2011/5/30 Fernando <fer.iz...@gmail.com>