The real church

[azop...@hotmail.com]

We need to find out what is church according to the bible. What is
being called church is not church. Many are leaving the institutional
church in search for the real church. The real church is the people and
not a building.
Many admit that the church is the people, but let me say, if it walks
like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
If you go to church (building), ask people what church they go to
(building), take up collections for the new church (building) or buy a
church. Guess what? The building is the church. That is a complete
deviation from the intentions of both Jesus and the apostles.
Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church. Was Jesus referring
to a building? Of course not! He was referring to the building the
people together in unity, love, fellowship and giftings toward one
another.
It is like the Ezekiel 37 chapter where the bones come together and
form an exceeding great army. What is not built together... is not the
church. If you are not gathering together to be built together in love,
unity, and ministry to one another, you are not a part of the body of
Christ. We must be joined and come together until we all come to "the
unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect
man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we
should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with
every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning
craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may
grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the
whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies,
according to the effective working by which every part does its share,
causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." Eph
4:13-16

[nahmen]

Men have usurped the place that is reserved only for Jesus. The
Christian church is full of stars and that is a sure sign that she is
in darkness. When the Son is in his proper place no stars will be
visible.

[vmj]

I believe the church has to go back to the foundations of our fathers
The Book Of Acts. That is where the true church functioned as God
would have it. Where is the humility, church discipline, and the
breaking of bread in the church today (building)? People are so busy
wrapped up in themselves to even listen to a brother or sister that has
a problem or is in a crisis. My experience is the church has gone into
a self centered structure. I personally am frustrated at the pastors
for not seeing the error that has crept into the church and not taking
a Godly stand. And not being afraid of the board members who seem to
run the church anyway. What ever happened to full body ministry.
Denominations separate and divide not bring believers together so we
can function as a Church the way God intended. That is how the church
in Acts flourished it was not a One man show (pastor). There are some
Churches that are preaching the word and living by the word and I
praise God for them. But in a whole the church (building denomination)
is sleeping.

[jffr...@netscape.net]

I'm not so sure of what I believe but my heart is grieved with my own
church. I don't understand why I am so lonely in a large congregation.
I tried to be active and I volunteered for many things. But I feel like
a number or an appendage, not part of what is going on. The pastors
seem to run everything and I have no voice. I feel silenced. I feel
powerless. In the services the presence of the Lord is often there but
I feel He cannot do all He wants to do because of the controlling of
the leaders. But maybe its me. Maybe I am the one who has the wrong
attitude. I don;t like being told to stand, sit, turn around and tell
someone something, even when to praise loudly and when to do so softly.
This seems like man's interference. There are many issues. I just don't
know which way to go or turn. It doesn't feel right. That is all I know.

[hotmail]

If you are wondering what is happening to you, think of Eph 2:4-6, 19-22, "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus....Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

 

What we see today is built with man's hands, man's programs and centered on man. We have building funds to build buildings and we have forsaken the poor and the true building made without hands... His body. We go to church rather than "be" church.

The church today wants us to be ever learning from teachers and never come to the true knowledge of God. Every member is not to be a part of the audience, but a part of the functioning body. It is together that we grow and we all share together in that life as we minister to one another.

If you are dying, it is because the church has confined you to a wheel chair and rigamortis has set in.

Your brother

Andy 

[hotmail]

Excellent word

----- Original Message -----
From: "vmj" <vmj...@valint.net>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

[katbr...@gmail.com]

When I first came out of the organized churches, I referred to it in an
article entitled "Escape from Babylon." Later, the Lord showed me that
Babylon follows us right out the door even into these things people
form called "house churches." Babylon follows because we are infected
with it ourselves. Whatever abuse you run from in churches will follow
you.

Later, God began to show me that "coming out from among them" has more
to do with coming out spiritually than physically. It is possible to be
very much in the organized churches and to not be of them. This,
however, requires tremendous growth. For someone who has come out
physically to go back in physically without falling into spiritual
Babylon or without supporting the agendas of spiritual Babylon is a
real trick, but I believe it may be possible to some extent.

You recall that when Jesus walked this earth, he went into the
synagagogues of organized religion. It had decayed to the point that
men no longer relied, strictly speaking, on Mosaic Law, but on the
Talmud. This did not stop Jesus from entering. Even in Babylon may be a
few open hearts (the Talmud, BTW, was a product of the Babylonian
captivity). Then he also went into the hillsides, preaching and
teaching to whatever souls would listen. He was able to go all places
because he was not burdened with the mind of Babylon, but walked with
the mind of Christ which the Father had given him.

There is great disappointment with what passes as the "church" in the
minds of many believers. This used to disturb me greatly, and though
the present state does not please me, it no longer greatly troubles me,
either. I realize my own helplessness in "figuring out" what is the
church and how it ought to operate. But I can tell you this--that we
must be willing to be smashed, reduced to powder--reduced, in fact, to
Christ. As long as we continue to beat ourselves, our pastors, our
fellow Christians over our shortcomings, we still have some trust in
the arm of flesh. Give it up. Accept that you and I are never going to
make it. Only Christ in us can make it. Are you willing to be reduced
to Him?

Two weeks ago, I was driving my car around a curve on the Interstate
and remembering how my father used to take us kids across the
overpasses and dips of the highway for a thrill. We would sit in the
back seat and feel the thrill of the ups and downs and squeal,
"Whee...! Do it again, Daddy!" And you know how when you are a kid, you
can bounce up and down in the back seat, and ask, "Are we there yet?"
You can anticipate so hard the end of the journey, but whether you kick
and scream, play games in the back, or backseat drive, you are not
going to hurry the journey up one bit. You might just as well sit back
and trust Daddy to get you where you are supposed to be on time. That's
how it is with the heavenly Father--our times are in His hands. It is
good that so many are aware of the problems, but also be aware that
Daddy is driving and He'll get us there at the appointed time, unless
we bail out the windows. (Oh, that would NOT be good.) :)

[hotmail]

I think our zeal to be a part of the remnant will often lead us to believe
that "we" can form the remnant by where we meet. The remnant church will be
His doing and His gathering out. He will "smash" us till then and there is
nothing left by Christ... good word!
He is doing that to me. So I count it all joy when I am smashed, knowing the
trying of my faith in this wilderness is preparing me for the crossing of
the Jordan.

----- Original Message -----
From: <katbr...@gmail.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

So what does everyone recommend going to a home fellowship? I have
seen men want to be in control
in that setting as well. I have also seen people sit around and gossip
about other churches and that
is not right. Any comments appreciated!

[katbr...@gmail.com]

I recommend:
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth
his life for my sake shall find it.

We want so badly to see this thing called "The Church" now, but my
opinion (for what it's worth) is that the fully operational fellowship
meetings we yearn for have not yet been restored to this earth.

I have had a foretaste here and there. The Lord has taken me numerous
places that did not match my idea in the least of where He should be
leading and has used them all to equip me. Still no obvious "church
life" in sight. I have been to many places claiming they are "it".
Guess what? They were NOT "it". :) Now, I'll grant you, it could have
just been my hypercritical mind that made them not "it," but I went to
the Lord about this and He seems to have confirmed that they were not
"it" by the fact that He never removed His blessings from me but kept
leading.

As yet, I do not have the last word on this, but I suspect that the
true Church is as much spiritually discerned as anything else you can
visually identify like a meeting hall or a "steeple house". Pray for a
desperate heart and a humble spirit. God cannot resist meeting one who
cries out to Him. He is tickled to pieces to pour Himself out into a
person of humility. Never fear the present times that try you so.
Simply allow Him to work, and He will make all things right in His own
time. In the meantime, do what you are doing now. You are seeking, you
are asking, and you are sharing with other seeking ones.

[katbr...@gmail.com]

It occurs to me to send people to these two sites if they are
interested in hearing more about such things: watchman.net and
awildernessvoice.com.

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

thank you I enjoyed reading a testimony today
by Michael Clark, a wildernessvoice.com.

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

It can be easy to come out of the system and feel that we "now know it
all"
and lose humility....... It is a fine line and must be prayed about
alot.
Any comments?

[hotmail]

That is true, it is not so much the facility we are meeting in, but what is
meeting in us.
Though I agree the house is a better place to fellowship than a commercial
facility, I don't believe that we restored the church by meeting in a house.
It is still a heart issue. Brokenness and humility is the result of one
accepting the dealing of God in bringing them to the place of being empty so
that He can fill us. We have so many answers and so little of life. Often
when I expresses myself in an intellectual way, it is no more than me
giving an opportunity for pride. We want people to gather around our
understanding and hold them captive to our teaching. But God is interested
in building on the revelation of His Son and the cross and building around
Him. Though I taught on the cross for 40 + years, I never understood the
cross until this past year. Not that I fully understand it now.
Until my death is based on the death of Jesus by faith and life, I will only
struggle to have victory, faith and methods to become spiritual in my carnal
nature.
I get excited about being dead, because resurrection is on the other side of
death.
We have a church that meets in our home, I am very tempted to give some
messages on the cross. I know in the house church it is hard to have
teaching, we are geared for sharing.
I would like to do it in this email group if you are interested. I have
never done this before, but that doesn't mean that it is not God. We can all
share together. It may take many emails to walk through it, but if your
open, I will do it.
We need to understand the gospel and that the gospel is defined in one major
event... the cross. Without understand that, we will struggle being a
Christian. We will be constantly searching for spirituality while our carnal
nature is alive and allowed to express itself.
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: <mlh...@yahoo.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[jffr...@netscape.net]

Andy, I'd like to "hear" your message(s) on the cross. Perhaps I could
understand better if you start from scratch. Some of the language you
are using seems a bit foreign to me. For example your discussion of
being excited about death. I feel like I walked in on the middle of a
conversation. The imagery is missing something for me. By all means
please give us all you have!
Jeff

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Yeah, I was greatly touched by it. I drove all the way to Houston last
year just to meet him and his wife when they were in the state. It was
worth it. (Funny you picked right up on the testimony. That's the part
I send people to first.)

[hotmail]

For you I will do it... I admit that a short message is hard to understand.
I will try doing a couple of pages each time.

Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: <jffr...@netscape.net>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[katbr...@gmail.com]

You have said some things that really hit home.

"Though I agree the house is a better place to fellowship than a
commercial
facility, I don't believe that we restored the church by meeting in a
house.
It is still a heart issue. Brokenness and humility is the result of one
accepting the dealing of God in bringing them to the place of being
empty so
that He can fill us."

I used to go to church to be filled. I really felt that I needed to go
(and it is taught this way), but somehow there came a shift. It got so
I would go to church and then I couldn't wait to get away so I could be
filled. I used to go to the meetings, and it got to where I would sit
15 minutes, then 10 and finally only 5 minutes before I would feel
restless. I could not stand it any longer but would feel the pressure
to bolt and go pray. I thought something was wrong with me for a long
time. In the end, I was taking my children to church because it was the
"right thing to do" but I was sitting outside on the step reading my
Bible and praying in order to touch God. Now I look back and see the
obvious insanity of such a position!

When you are really desperate, church becomes a shadow. The desperate
heart does not care whether God answers in a building or in a trash
heap. It does not care if God answers from a pulpit or from the mouth
of a donkey. It cannot rest until it finds the face of God. An inactive
prayer life is never a challenge for the desperate heart.

"We want people to gather around our
understanding and hold them captive to our teaching. But God is
interested

in building on the revelation of His Son and the cross ..."

You are right. We do this in all sincerity. We feel we have got to
control something because we think we know how things ought to go. We
become like the Pharisees who traverse land and sea to make one
proselyte and, having made him, turn him into twice the child of hell
as themselves (in principle, you understand). What God has taught us
in the spirit, we want to teach to men's minds. We accidentally make
disciples who resemble us instead of Christ. The only recommendation I
make any longer is to turn people to Christ and hope the heart is
sufficiently desperate. No one comes unless the Father draws him. When
will we learn this?

"Though I taught on the cross for 40 + years, I never understood the
cross until this past year"

You are not alone here. Jesus touched a blind man once and asked him,
"What do you see?" The man said, "I see men walking around like trees."
Jesus touched him again and his sight was complete. You had a second
touch.

" I get excited about being dead, because resurrection is on the other
side of

death." Amen to this.

About teaching--go to the Lord and inquire of him what to do. I don't
want to say nay, because teaching is scriptural to some degree. There
is so much out there, though... Some of us have been in email groups
where one shares and then another and another, but it is the Holy
Spirit who opens up amazing revelation in the process---there are so
many ways he works.

You are right. The Cross is everything. Without it, there is no
beginning, middle or end to the gospel. I cannot tell you what to
share, but I feel constrained mostly to just pray for people nowadays
that God will open their eyes and give them sight.
Kat

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Does MIchael live in Idaho?
He has many pic's from this area on website.
I live in Idaho.

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Yes. Drop him a line. Tell him Kathryn in Texas sent you. He's been
finishing up a house building project and sometimes doesn't get to his
email till the weekends, but he does answer.

[hotmail]

Kate,
I can't express it enough... your comments were great! Truly your heart is
in the right place. The only reason I would "attempt" to teach the cross, I
see the guys around me changing incredibly. We must pray that revelation
will bring about the understanding. We need to preach the Gospel and that is
the meaning and purpose of the cross.
Thanks for your comments... I pray we can grow in Him together.

Andy




----- Original Message -----
From: <katbr...@gmail.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[hotmail]

Dying to self Part 1

I want to begin by talking about some of the misconception of “dying to self” and a practical understanding. We will then proceed to look at it from the scriptures.

For years I heard this statement “Andy you must die in that situation.” It was always a situation that was already beyond my faith and ability. I then saw dying as part of the anguish and pain. “I just had to die….” I must admit I never received any comfort in those words nor did I understand it as a solution. I was dying because of the problem and now I must die in some mystical way which I really didn’t understand.

I went this way for 40 years. I would get into these horrendous trials weeping and struggling without any solution. I couldn’t figure out where God was at in all this. I tried to have faith and struggled to get the victory. Every once in a while I would make some progress only to face another trial. It seemed the more I tried to do good, the worse it seemed to go. “Was God against me going on?”  

I tried hundreds of methods: standing on scripture, claiming victory, embracing the suffering, praising Him during the trial and even counting it all joy to fall into many different kinds of trials.

 

The early seeds of the cross

Early in my walk I had an experience with a trial. I was at Penn State University and just took a test that I was convinced I had failed. While driving home from school I could hear swearing and cursing all around me. I was depressed and the Devil was laughing at me for being so old and being in school (I was 27 at the time).

I got home and latter went up to my bedroom. I knelt at my bed and told the Lord that now I wanted to tell Him that I loved Him. Now that it seemed my education was going in the wrong direction, I wanted him to know that I loved Him.

At that moment God gave me a vision, this is a struggle for me to explain this. Did my eyes see this? No! But I must say that my brain saw it as clear as though my eyes were seeing it. It was as though God bypassed my eyes and sent the signal directly to my brain. This was no imagination, it was as clear as though I was physically seeing it and was being played out in my mind. Obviously there would have been no local background that could had been seen by my eyes to reveal this vision.

I saw myself kneeling at the cross. My forehead was touching the ground and the top of my head was touching the foot of the cross. It was at that corner where the cross and the ground meet. It was as though God was permitting me to see myself through the eyes of a camera. Then as a camera leaves one scene and spans to another, the scene moved to a large valley about 300 yards down from the cross. There I saw thousands of people gather in a valley below where I was. I saw a person in the center healing the sick and casting out demons. I heard and saw people calling and directing him to this one and that one. I couldn’t understand what this was all about. Then the camera seemed to zoom closer to the person at the center. I knew it was Jesus. It zoomed closer and closer and closer. I could now hear the voices. Then I heard a voice coming from the crowd, “Andy come over here.” The person turned and I saw his face…. It was me. “What?” Then the camera quickly turned back up the hill at the cross, and there I was hanging on the cross…. I was dead. Then the voice said to me, “If you will do this, I will greatly use you.”

That was about 40 years ago.

Many things in-between time pieced that experience into different parts. One time when I lost all hope, Jesus showed me He was my hope. Another time I had no strength, Jesus showed me He was my strength. When I suffered from depressing, He showed me that He was my peace. In each case he had me turn from what I was experiencing to what He was. My life was in reality to be lived out in His.

Often I would ask Jesus if He was depressed and then live on the basis of His peace. I did that with hope, strength, faith, and every force that came against me. Jesus in some vague way became my life.

There was yet one connection that would tie it all together, the reality of my being (past tense) dead.

At the age of 61 I had to find a job, I went through dozens of interviews and sent out 100’s of applications. I tried out a few jobs and they were all promises without any substance. We had no money for food and ran our charge card up to 35,000 dollars. My two girls needed clothes and transportation. They cried the more and I died in pain the more. I finally found a job that takes up about 10-12 hours of my day. My social security check is not enough to pay the bills. Cars were breaking down one after another. It seemed one situation kept hitting one after another. I would take them to Jesus and walk in victory… but still something was missing. There was something that was not connecting all these events. Then one day it came, I got a letter from the county telling me that I owed them 50,000 dollars in back taxes. I did not have the money and didn’t want to lose my home.

I was angry at the devil and now it was time to end his life in my life. The only way that could happen would for me to be dead.

I just got done eating and the news just stopped my stomach from its normal digestive process. I went into my bedroom filled with fear and discouragement. I had no faith and no hope; this appeared to be the final victory for Satan. But it wasn’t, it was his end.

I lay in bed and said these words, “Satan it is over, I am finished. I have no life, I am dead. You are threatening a dead man. It matters little if this dead man does not have the victory, does not have peace or faith… he is finished. “I” am not trying to have the victory any more. “I” am not trying to have faith any more. “I” am dead. My opinions don’t mean anything any more. Nothing that you feel, nothing that you can do means anything anymore. You are dead and I am not listening to you any more. I will recognize myself dead and incapable in dealing with this problem. I don’t care if “you” never get the victory or have faith. There is no good thing in you and you are dead. I refuse to lift myself up by my boot straps and try to have victory. I am crucified with Christ… and Christ lives in me and the life that I am going to be living from now on is by His life of faith and hope. Satan you are trying to draw attention to a dead man and now I see it. Satan you want me to live by “me” and the “me” is dead. It is over for you… I am dead. I am not going to give my life mouth to mouth resuscitation to keep it alive.  

I am not going to lift the casket lid to see how the dead man is doing. I am not going ask him how he feels or if he has the victory… he is finished. He is dead and a dead person has nothing to do in this life except to be buried. Today I am recognizing what Jesus did with my self-life; He crucified it 2000 years ago.  I am not trying to die… I am already dead. I refuse to live any longer by the facts of my sense life, I am living by the fact of what Jesus did on the cross: He provided me with the apility to put you to death and provided me to sit with Him in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. I will stay here until Jesus decides what He wants to do in this situation. He is the Lord of all.”

 

I must say I felt no change, not burst of faith or victory. I wept and could “feel” the pain in my stomach. The next morning I was clothed in power. A resurrected life entered me. It lifted me into victory and a freedom from sin. I had a presence I never felt in my life. For 2 months I walked in a power and presence I never experienced.

Then the Lord showed me that I would have to walk this revelation out. Again when areas in my life where Satan had gotten a foot hold came up, I reestablished that I died when Jesus died. My feelings went nuts. It seemed ridiculous to believe I was dead. The cross is foolishness to the carnal mind. The flesh wars against the Spirit. The flesh wants to keep the flesh alive and at the center of every situation. It wants to set up its kingdom in my life. But it is dead. Jesus death was a fact, and so was mine. I am not dying, I am dead. I am not trying to make myself dead; Jesus already put it to death. I must live by the fact of the cross and my death.

He that is dead is free.

Before we get into the scriptures of mostly Romans, I want you to see it first from a practical point, so when we get into the scriptures it isn’t some pie in the sky kind of thing.

Once you see it in scriptures, it is glorious. You don’t have to worry about you any more!

I would strongly recommend that you go to this site below and listen to watchman nee on the subject. I found it later and was absolutely excited and assured I was on the right path.

 

http://69.44.157.77/sermons/SID0254.mp3       

 

Andy

www.TheRealChurch.com

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Andy, that is a very typical testimony of one who has run into the
Cross after many years of trying to see it. Many of us grew up with
others telling us to "reckon ourselves dead" and all that sort of
nonsense...as if we could crucify ourselves by willing it so. We don't
know HOW to reckon ourselves dead by self-effort. In fact, that is an
oxymoron, is it not?

I suppose there is some good in this in that at least we have a concept
that we are supposed to be dead. Yes, we really are dead as of 2000
years ago, but most of us have not entered into practical death. You
encountered the present reality of that death and, in so doing, you
also encountered the present reality of the Resurrection.

When we first encounter it, we wonder if we've lost our minds because
we are out of sync with everything and everyone that we looked to for
spiritual guidance. The Lord has a way of bringing the right people and
substances to us at the appointed time to let us know we really are on
the right path. Whenever you think you are the only one, God always
seems to have 7,000 stashed away somewhere that you never dreamed of.

Many, many people have passed the way of the Cross--people with quite
divergent cultures and theological ideas. The Lord simply bypasses our
brains and looks on the heart. I'm learning to see other believers
quite differently and it is changing my life.

Please drop by my new blog at saltsister.com if you get time. There is
one site I've linked to from there called The Mystic Way at
http://rccop.org/err/way/mysticway.html. The first time I went there, I
wondered that anyone would even attempt to instruct on such a thing as
Divine Union. It's like teaching the Cross-- You cannot say, "Do this
step and then do the next, etc. etc., and you shall be crucified and
resurrected." I used to approach things of the spirit in this way. But
really, all such ones can do is confirm the path the Lord has taken us
down. We don't see the stages until we have passed them and look back.
Then we go "Aha! So that's what that was all about. If I had only
known...." But what? What if we had only known...? What would we have
done differently? The arm of flesh and human agendas cannot make the
Cross a reality, can it? Thank God, he rescued us from ourselves to
accomplish this.

Kathryn

[katbr...@gmail.com]

P.S. I started the last reply before hearing Nee speak on your link.
Oh, my!!!! This is priceless...that we must know ourselves to be dead
before we can reckon ourselves dead. Oh, me.....you came upon your own
death. You discovered what you had only heard about from others--that
you were dead. When you saw that it was true, you were able to
reconcile the validity of it. This is exactly what I was talking about.
(I did not know Nee's voice could be heard anywhere, by the way.) I
will swipe that link for my blog. Thank you.

Kat

[jffr...@netscape.net]

Thanks for this Andy. This is just the level I need to hear this at.
Wonderful! Please keep it coming! And thanks for the link to Watchman
Nee's teaching too.
Jeff

hotmail wrote:
> Dying to self Part 1
>
> I want to begin by talking about some of the misconception of "dying to self" and a practical understanding. We will then proceed to look at it from the scriptures.
>

> For years I heard this statement "Andy you must die in that situation." It was always a situation that was already beyond my faith and ability. I then saw dying as part of the anguish and pain. "I just had to die.." I must admit I never received any comfort in those words nor did I understand it as a solution. I was dying because of the problem and now I must die in some mystical way which I really didn't understand.

>
> I went this way for 40 years. I would get into these horrendous trials weeping and struggling without any solution. I couldn't figure out where God was at in all this. I tried to have faith and struggled to get the victory. Every once in a while I would make some progress only to face another trial. It seemed the more I tried to do good, the worse it seemed to go. "Was God against me going on?"
>
> I tried hundreds of methods: standing on scripture, claiming victory, embracing the suffering, praising Him during the trial and even counting it all joy to fall into many different kinds of trials.
>
>
>
> The early seeds of the cross
>
> Early in my walk I had an experience with a trial. I was at Penn State University and just took a test that I was convinced I had failed. While driving home from school I could hear swearing and cursing all around me. I was depressed and the Devil was laughing at me for being so old and being in school (I was 27 at the time).
>
> I got home and latter went up to my bedroom. I knelt at my bed and told the Lord that now I wanted to tell Him that I loved Him. Now that it seemed my education was going in the wrong direction, I wanted him to know that I loved Him.
>
> At that moment God gave me a vision, this is a struggle for me to explain this. Did my eyes see this? No! But I must say that my brain saw it as clear as though my eyes were seeing it. It was as though God bypassed my eyes and sent the signal directly to my brain. This was no imagination, it was as clear as though I was physically seeing it and was being played out in my mind. Obviously there would have been no local background that could had been seen by my eyes to reveal this vision.
>

> I saw myself kneeling at the cross. My forehead was touching the ground and the top of my head was touching the foot of the cross. It was at that corner where the cross and the ground meet. It was as though God was permitting me to see myself through the eyes of a camera. Then as a camera leaves one scene and spans to another, the scene moved to a large valley about 300 yards down from the cross. There I saw thousands of people gather in a valley below where I was. I saw a person in the center healing the sick and casting out demons. I heard and saw people calling and directing him to this one and that one. I couldn't understand what this was all about. Then the camera seemed to zoom closer to the person at the center. I knew it was Jesus. It zoomed closer and closer and closer. I could now hear the voices. Then I heard a voice coming from the crowd, "Andy come over here." The person turned and I saw his face.. It was me. "What?" Then the camera quickly turned back up the hill at the cross, and there I was hanging on the cross.. I was dead. Then the voice said to me, "If you will do this, I will greatly use you."

>
> That was about 40 years ago.
>
> Many things in-between time pieced that experience into different parts. One time when I lost all hope, Jesus showed me He was my hope. Another time I had no strength, Jesus showed me He was my strength. When I suffered from depressing, He showed me that He was my peace. In each case he had me turn from what I was experiencing to what He was. My life was in reality to be lived out in His.
>
> Often I would ask Jesus if He was depressed and then live on the basis of His peace. I did that with hope, strength, faith, and every force that came against me. Jesus in some vague way became my life.
>
> There was yet one connection that would tie it all together, the reality of my being (past tense) dead.
>

> At the age of 61 I had to find a job, I went through dozens of interviews and sent out 100's of applications. I tried out a few jobs and they were all promises without any substance. We had no money for food and ran our charge card up to 35,000 dollars. My two girls needed clothes and transportation. They cried the more and I died in pain the more. I finally found a job that takes up about 10-12 hours of my day. My social security check is not enough to pay the bills. Cars were breaking down one after another. It seemed one situation kept hitting one after another. I would take them to Jesus and walk in victory. but still something was missing. There was something that was not connecting all these events. Then one day it came, I got a letter from the county telling me that I owed them 50,000 dollars in back taxes. I did not have the money and didn't want to lose my home.

>
> I was angry at the devil and now it was time to end his life in my life. The only way that could happen would for me to be dead.
>
> I just got done eating and the news just stopped my stomach from its normal digestive process. I went into my bedroom filled with fear and discouragement. I had no faith and no hope; this appeared to be the final victory for Satan. But it wasn't, it was his end.
>

> I lay in bed and said these words, "Satan it is over, I am finished. I have no life, I am dead. You are threatening a dead man. It matters little if this dead man does not have the victory, does not have peace or faith. he is finished. "I" am not trying to have the victory any more. "I" am not trying to have faith any more. "I" am dead. My opinions don't mean anything any more. Nothing that you feel, nothing that you can do means anything anymore. You are dead and I am not listening to you any more. I will recognize myself dead and incapable in dealing with this problem. I don't care if "you" never get the victory or have faith. There is no good thing in you and you are dead. I refuse to lift myself up by my boot straps and try to have victory. I am crucified with Christ. and Christ lives in me and the life that I am going to be living from now on is by His life of faith and hope. Satan you are trying to draw attention to a dead man and now I see it. Satan you want me to live by "me" and the "me" is dead. It is over for you. I am dead. I am not going to give my life mouth to mouth resuscitation to keep it alive.
>
> I am not going to lift the casket lid to see how the dead man is doing. I am not going ask him how he feels or if he has the victory. he is finished. He is dead and a dead person has nothing to do in this life except to be buried. Today I am recognizing what Jesus did with my self-life; He crucified it 2000 years ago. I am not trying to die. I am already dead. I refuse to live any longer by the facts of my sense life, I am living by the fact of what Jesus did on the cross: He provided me with the apility to put you to death and provided me to sit with Him in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. I will stay here until Jesus decides what He wants to do in this situation. He is the Lord of all."

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

HI Kathyrn,
I sent a letter to Michael and found out he and Dorothy live
about 3 hrs from us. He sent a very gracious invitation
to my husband and myself. He asked if Kathyrn from Texas
gave me the website!
Again, thank you!
Grace and Peace,
M

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Hahaha! That's hysterical. Yes, they are lovely, lovely people. If you
get to meet them, be sure to ask Dorothy where she was while Michael's
testimony was going on. I did and hers is as marvelous as his.

Kat

[hotmail]

Kate,
What is Michael's email address, I tried a few times to get in touch with
him and the email address on his site came back.
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: <katbr...@gmail.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Personally, I have been able to fellowship with the home group or
building
( organized) and have found some mutual fellowship in both. At one time
of my life,
I was a "come outer" of the system, but at this point of my life
through many trials
and leading of the Lord, I am open to both and have learned some
humility of which
to be truthful was rare in home fellowship.

[hotmail]

yes, I have seen some house church that are no more than slam institutional
church meetings in a home. They have no revelation and no outreach. they
never grow and just sit around and do there thing. Fellowship is at a
premium these days... no matter where you can find it.
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: <mlh...@yahoo.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

thank you Andy for your post.... Yes, fellowship for me is rare.
I have truly appreciated along with my husband, Vin, your posts
and I first became acquainted with you on the narrow path website.
thank you

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Amen!!!!

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Watchman Nee was a chinese or japenese man...
This man speaking sounds very british/english....
Are you sure this is Watchman Nee or someone speaking for him?
Anyways, thanks for the site.....

[hotmail]

The man is reading from the book "The Normal Christian Life." is was from a
message preached by Watchman Nee.

Andy


----- Original Message -----
From: <mlh...@yahoo.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>

[Dot]

Kathryn

Just wanted to thank you for that link to the mystic way papers. I
think most of us can say "Aha" as we recognize many things we 'knew'
but never put together quite as concisely. Much to consider.

Dot

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

oops sorry..............

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

In reading Philippians this morning I came across a scripture that
really stood out.
Phil 1: 3-8

I thank my God upon every rememberance of you, always in every prayer
of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the
gospelfrom the first day until now,
being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a good work in
you will complete
it until the day of Jesus Christ. Just as it is right for me to think
this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my
chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are
partakers with me of grace... For God is my witness, how greatly I long
for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

What came to me after reading this is;
Have I become suspicious of other believer's because of past hurts and
wrongs?
Do I think I know more than others or perhaps have had some greater
revelations
that others don't see?
DO I have a root of bitterness against a brother or sister, if so, have
I removed it or is
it a HUGE tree now?
Do I genuinely care and am I concerned for other's growth or am I like
the world and care
for my needs/family needs only?
Have I washed the feet of the brethren?
Do I treat other believer's like they are God's, whom HE gave his life
for?
Do I turn the other cheek?
DO I talk about other churches(people in the bldg) as tho' I know
something they do not?
Do I realize we are all in different places in the Lord, growing in our
own seasons?
I cannot help to see Paul's agape love and yet I see people who confess
Christ
and have little tolerance and love for their brother's, I check MY life
daily to see that I be in the faith too........

M

[katbr...@gmail.com]

micha...@verizon.net

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Chinese guy.

[katbr...@gmail.com]

That was excellent, Maureen. I fail on a number of those in a daily
way. This is not good. However, we always knew, if we were honest, that
none of us is going to make it on our own. I'm learning to embrace
failure. It's teaching me to stay close or I will be swallowed up in my
own foolishness.

Say, I just realized that our responses do not always indicate what we
are responding to. The tree assumes that each response is according to
whatever the last post was. That's very weird. Must be careful to
include complete responses from now on so people can tell what it's in
relation to.

[hotmail]

thanks


Faith is the substance of things hope for... faith works by love... faith
comes by hearing...looking away unto Jesus the author and finisher of our
faith

True faith will affect how we think... faith will affect what we say....
faith will affect how we stand .... and faith will affect to whom we live
by.

----- Original Message -----
From: <katbr...@gmail.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: The real church


>

> micha...@verizon.net
>
>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Thanks, Kathyrn, I tried making a new post as my message was not a
reply.
Yes, I agree we do fail without the Lord's help. Thanks for saying that
you are learning
to embrace failure, that statement alone could help a person like
myself.

[katbr...@gmail.com]

I just realized that how I enter the Google Groups determines whether
my response includes the text I am replying to. Maybe Google is still
experimenting. They are working on a lot of services.

Anyway, glad to be of some encouragement.

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Yes!! thank you for your reply.
I love to fellowship if just sometimes on a computer. I take it
wherever I can.

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

Yes, without faith it is impossible to please God.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for and the evidence of things
not yet seen... We can have
faith in things we pray for even if
things dont appear to change keep praying and believing, the prayer
answers are not yet seen.

[hotmail]

I have written several times to Michael and he has ignored my email... do
you know why?

Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: <katbr...@gmail.com>
To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:41 AM

Subject: Re: The real church


>

> micha...@verizon.net
>
>

[mlh...@yahoo.com]

I have missed seeing people post on this site...........

[katbr...@gmail.com]

Absolutely no idea. I do know that he isn't able to write as often as
some others. He was building a house for a long time and I don't know
what's going on right now. Sometimes I don't hear from him until the
weekend or until two weekends later. He once told me that if I really,
really need him to respond to write something like "Michael, Please
Respond" in the subject line so he'd know to pay close attention to it.
I think he gets busy and skims through things sometimes.

Kat

[hotmail]

Kate, who do we miss posting on this site?

Andy

 

Be reconciled

By Andy

 

Rom 5:10-11, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

 

Those words "much more”.... Shall be saved by His life.  It is more than our hearts can fathom to understand reconciliation. One of the words that define reconciliation is “to restore.” To be brought back to its original condition. I often wonder if we can understand reconciliation on that bases. Nothing but a full reconciliation was provided by His death. A full restoration of everything that Adam possessed in Christ before his fall.

How little we would cow under the weight of trials, tribulation and suffering… yea we would rejoice in them if we saw the reality of His reconciliation. Certainly the trials would be our victory sent by God to accomplish His purpose by His given authority.

Our vision is so small, we scarcely understand having peace during a trial rather than being able to rejoice also. I think we have lost the perspective of restoration and reconciliation. In the earlier part of Chapter five of Romans, Paul speaks of faith and now he speaks of reconciliation granted by His grace.

I think of a young and muscular 6’ 6” man being threatened by a threat coming from a two-year-old boy. How does he deal with the shouts and threats… he laughs! He knows no such person can threaten him. The large man has perspective in the situation. Without His perspective we are small and weak.

Have we been so dominated by our reasoning that we have lost our perspective? Has the world so captivated us that we fail to grasp our new reconciled position in Christ? If reconciliation only restored us to the original position that Adam had before the fall, think of the last part of that verse in Romans, “much more” … shall we be saved by His life. What life was that? It was resurrection life. So not only are we restored to the position held by Adam, but much more we are lifted up in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Is this not the basis of rejoicing in tribulation? Everything that comes our way cannot threaten us by comparison to our being lifted up in His life. Have we ever looked at our trial and His power at the same time? The comparison is laughable.  Is he able?

Is our situation bigger than Him? Did He not permit the trial to show His glory to us who will believe? To the one who will laugh?

The verses given above are granted for us to deal with those things, which our understanding fails to understand. “rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Rom 5:2-5

This kind of hope is not a future hope that something might happen, but a hope that something is guaranteed and expected to happen. It can’t believe otherwise. It is a sure future occurrence only permitting time to work it out. But what is time to the believer? It is rest and waiting! It is the process worked out to bring us into perfection… like Him.

Have you ever laughed at your situation and understood your position in reconciliation? Did you not understand reconciliation? Have you been so absorbed in the threat of the two-year-old child that you lost your perspective?

Our trials are given to us to be impossible for us to overcome. They are so designed to compel us to relay on His life. All trails can be overwhelming and they are designed to be that by those who have chosen to live by their own strength and understanding… until, the person fully puts their life into His hands.

“Where are you?” was the cry of God in search of the fallen Adam. No such cry from God was heard until Adam fell; God knew where He was. Let me say that God always knows where we are; it is a cry from God to find out if we know where we are. 

Only faith can bring us into that victorious relationship. It is a working out in our mind and heart step by step in the Spirit while denying our reason its due. There is a physicalness in walking in the Spirit. For one to go from one place to another they must walk step by step; so it is in the Spirit. In the Spirit we must walk by faith, step by step. We must guard our minds from trusting in its own understand. We must live by the perspective of reconciliation in every trying event. We must embrace our position with Him in resurrected Life. We must hold the course and not focus on our weakness or our defeated expectation of the future.

This is not blind faith, it is a faith based on who we are… we are reconciled to the first Adam, yes even much more; we are saved by His Live. Dare we let go of all those things that try us and let Him handled them by the operation of His life in us?

How else shall we grow outside of faith? How else can we be established outside of reconciliation? Do we truly understand reconciliation? Is it the mark in which we take our stand? Do we lay hold of that which we cannot see, feel or think? Is our life bound to itself? Is that not death?

Life is found when He is our life and we trust in the fullness of His reconciliation. Without Him we can do nothing. But with Him, we can do all things. We must take a new step in this new creation every day and during every trial. Take that step in your mind and heart; let reconciliation be your position in every event and the pathway of your life. Rejoice in reconciliation, it has restored you to His life. Walk in out! We will grow rooted in Him in the depths of His rich soil. What people will see is the Christ in you above ground, but they will not understand your death with Christ below ground.

Our trials our the rain that makes the crops grow even taller, richer and fuller until the day of harvest. Surly the fruit and the gifts and the presence of God are granted to them who walk in such a manor: step by step by faith in the power of His Spirit.

God reconciled us to encourage one another, to give us His courage to go on and believe. It matters little how big the giant or giants. It means nothing how high the walls. It counts for nothing the threat in and through our understanding or feelings; is not reconciliation more than all these? Is not the position of reconciliation in Christ greater than our stand in our fallen nature? Have we not learned yet, that it is ok because of no one else but Him?

Believe this with all your doing and with are your thinking and with all your understanding: Rejoice, we have been reconciled and positioned with Him in heavenly places. We have been “reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (not ours). And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now (right at this very moment) received the reconciliation.”

Be encouraged, its true.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: <mlh...@yahoo.com>

To: "real church" <real-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:50 PM

Subject: Re: The real church

>