Has Anyone Hacked (or even disassembled) Electronic Thermostatic Radiator Valves?
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Robin
Sep 20, 2016, 2:04:46 PM9/20/16
to Reading Hackspace
I am trying to hack together an electronic TRV to complement a home automation system, and am getting rather stumped by the method of actuation to use.
I would therefore be interested to see how the commercially available models achieve high-force (relatively, for the size) linear actuation over a few mm, with position encoding.
I have considered leadscrew stepper motors, which seems like the obvious solution, but for the size, and cost, they must either have a really inexpensive custom hook-up, or be achieving actuation in a different manner.
So, if anyone has torn-down a commercially available electronic TRV, please would you be kind enough to let me know what you found?
Many thanks!
I would therefore be interested to see how the commercially available models achieve high-force (relatively, for the size) linear actuation over a few mm, with position encoding.
I have considered leadscrew stepper motors, which seems like the obvious solution, but for the size, and cost, they must either have a really inexpensive custom hook-up, or be achieving actuation in a different manner.
So, if anyone has torn-down a commercially available electronic TRV, please would you be kind enough to let me know what you found?
Many thanks!
Ryan .
Sep 20, 2016, 2:06:54 PM9/20/16
to reading-...@googlegroups.com
Why not just buy the cheapest you can find and hack the electronics rather than reinvent the wheel?
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Alex Gibson
Sep 20, 2016, 2:54:07 PM9/20/16
to reading-...@googlegroups.com, Mark Stanley
Coming at this from an opposite angle, there is a local group called OpenTRV who are designing (and are advanced with) an open source wireless TRV.
Even if you want to start from scratch, I’m sure they will have experience which could help answer questions such as best valves to hack.
And, from me, 3d printer + cheap gear motor + esp2866 would be a good starting point…
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Robin
Sep 20, 2016, 3:01:30 PM9/20/16
to Reading Hackspace, mark.s...@someconsultants.com
Ah yes, I looked at them, didn't realise they were local!
My impression, from their site, was that they were developing a companion 'box' to complement COTS TRVs, rather than the valve actuator itself, but I'll certainly fire them an email to see if they have any ideas!
Thanks!
My impression, from their site, was that they were developing a companion 'box' to complement COTS TRVs, rather than the valve actuator itself, but I'll certainly fire them an email to see if they have any ideas!
Thanks!
Robin
Sep 20, 2016, 3:06:14 PM9/20/16
to Reading Hackspace
Any number of reasons, not least that if I'm just tearing it down forthe components, I can get them cheaper individually.
I'll probably end up dismantling at least one, for educational purposes, if I can't find the knowledge elsewhere.
I'll probably end up dismantling at least one, for educational purposes, if I can't find the knowledge elsewhere.
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daprigoo
Sep 20, 2016, 3:30:06 PM9/20/16
to reading-...@googlegroups.com, mikethebee, Malcolm Napier
Talk to Mike the Bee and Malcolm Napier who have been directly involved in the project and are rlab members.
David
Jeremy Poulter
Sep 20, 2016, 4:05:16 PM9/20/16
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The OpenTRV started with the two box model, an off the shelf TRV and their own 'thermostat' but they have moved on to a single all in one unit.
I can bring one of the valves/OpenTRV devices if you wish, I may be down tomorrow, will let you know.
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Robin
Sep 20, 2016, 5:33:36 PM9/20/16
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That's great info, thanks Jeremy!
I'm unlikely to be able to make it tomorrow, but I'll see if I can get a look at their schematics!
Thanks again!
I'm unlikely to be able to make it tomorrow, but I'll see if I can get a look at their schematics!
Thanks again!
Mark Hill
Sep 21, 2016, 2:12:50 AM9/21/16
to Reading Hackspace
Hi Robin
Mark from OpenTRV. I lurk on the forum. The radiator valves, rebranded as Radbot, will soon be on Kickstarter, currently planned for late October. Meanwhile, we're always interested in talking to people who want to help develop the project (eagle files and software all on github).
Get in touch if you want a chat.
Regards, Mark
mikethebee
Sep 21, 2016, 6:31:23 AM9/21/16
to Reading Hackspace
Hello Robin,
Mark H. is your man regarding RadBot (nee OpenTRV).and TRV's in general, he has dismantled a few in his time. I can cover what I know, and Jeremy has offered to show you an early OpenTRV model of the controller that works with a commercial valve. Regarding the motor drive, they usually a highly geared motor drive that uses current sensing to calibrate the open/close range when first fitted. There are also several sizes of threaded fitting that do the coarse setting for different radiator manufactures.
-MikeTheBee
Mark H. is your man regarding RadBot (nee OpenTRV).and TRV's in general, he has dismantled a few in his time. I can cover what I know, and Jeremy has offered to show you an early OpenTRV model of the controller that works with a commercial valve. Regarding the motor drive, they usually a highly geared motor drive that uses current sensing to calibrate the open/close range when first fitted. There are also several sizes of threaded fitting that do the coarse setting for different radiator manufactures.
-MikeTheBee
Robin
Sep 21, 2016, 7:52:06 AM9/21/16
to Reading Hackspace
Wow, great response! Thank-you all very much for knowing who the people in the know are, and for being the people in the know, respectively!
Quick precis of what I am trying to achieve: I'm working on a mesh network (currently leaning toward 6LoWPAN on top of LWMesh, but I'm at the project definition and dimensioning stage, so that's open to change) to connect a suite of sensors and actuators, around my home. One of my key paradigms is to utilise energy harvesting wherever possible, and hopefully eliminate the use of batteries altogether, for environmental, convenience, and cost reasons. Thus I have a lot of interest in TEG/solar/piezo harvesting techniques, and high-cycle, flexible energy storage and delivery, namely EDLCs. Not to mention power minimisation.
Hence why my interest has been piqued by TRVs, which clearly operate in the presence of an abundance of (relatively) easily harvested energy.
Clearly the actuation is something to get my head around, and I'm thrilled to hear that the solution seems to be torque-gearing based (having a background in helicopters).
In terms of the final, linear, drive; is this achieved by a captive nut leadscrew, with a sliding drive from the gear train output? I'm envisaging some manner of long socket, over a bolt-head. Is some sort of swivel-pad utilised at the interface with the valve pin, so as to minimise torque transfer, or is this not a concern? Are there any concerns regarding gear thrust within the gear train, or through-life lubrication?
Thanks again for engaging on this topic!
Quick precis of what I am trying to achieve: I'm working on a mesh network (currently leaning toward 6LoWPAN on top of LWMesh, but I'm at the project definition and dimensioning stage, so that's open to change) to connect a suite of sensors and actuators, around my home. One of my key paradigms is to utilise energy harvesting wherever possible, and hopefully eliminate the use of batteries altogether, for environmental, convenience, and cost reasons. Thus I have a lot of interest in TEG/solar/piezo harvesting techniques, and high-cycle, flexible energy storage and delivery, namely EDLCs. Not to mention power minimisation.
Hence why my interest has been piqued by TRVs, which clearly operate in the presence of an abundance of (relatively) easily harvested energy.
Clearly the actuation is something to get my head around, and I'm thrilled to hear that the solution seems to be torque-gearing based (having a background in helicopters).
In terms of the final, linear, drive; is this achieved by a captive nut leadscrew, with a sliding drive from the gear train output? I'm envisaging some manner of long socket, over a bolt-head. Is some sort of swivel-pad utilised at the interface with the valve pin, so as to minimise torque transfer, or is this not a concern? Are there any concerns regarding gear thrust within the gear train, or through-life lubrication?
Thanks again for engaging on this topic!
mikethebee
Oct 15, 2016, 3:22:26 PM10/15/16
to Reading Hackspace
Hello Robin, If you can be at rLab on Mon evening (17th Oct) we have a TVRRUG evening and I will be there from 7pm for a while. I am happy to bring a couple of motorised valves and discuss what I know about them and the OpenTRV control. OpenTRV are launching a kickstarter soon for a new LoRaWAN/TTN version called RadBot. -Mike
On Wednesday, 21 September 2016 12:52:06 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
Wow, great response! Thank-you all very much for knowing who the people in the know are, and for being the people in the know, respectively!
...snip
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