What Is An RC2014

[Spencer Owen]

I thought I'd put a simple question to you all, just to see what you think; What is a RC2014.  Or, more specifically, what particular combination of components or modules make up a RC2014?

The reason for asking is essentially one of vanity, but I am approaching 1000 sales (or, more excitingly, 1024 sales, as that's a nice round number!).  However, classifying exactly what counts towards this number isn't always that easy.  So, for example, if I sell a Full Monty kit, well, that's 1 RC2014 sale.  Likewise, a RC2014 Mini counts as a RC2014.  However, if somebody buys only the PCBs to make a Full Monty kit, does that count as a RC2014 sale?  What about if they just buy the ROM, RAM, and Backplane?

In the early days, things were simple.  If somebody bought a bare bones kit (all basic PCBs), a starter kit (all basic PCBs plus BASIC ROM), or Full Monty, I would count that as a sale.  And, because lots of people bought individual modules, any ROM Module I counted as a RC2014 sale, as that, in essence, was another RC2014 about to be born.

Now that I sell the Pageable ROM, as well as most of the other original modules in an updated format, that's muddied the waters somewhat.  Some people buy a Pageable ROM to upgrade their existing RC2014, so that probably doesn't count.  But, others, buy a Pageable ROM, along with 64k RAM, CPU, Clock and Backplane Pro - so that's surely another RC2014.  But there's no easy way to know.

How about things like PianoMatt machine that he posted last night?  That has a Backplane Pro and a Pi Serial Module which are RC2014 branded - but everything else is 3rd party boards.  So, (ignoring the fact that I know he bought other RC2014 stuff before) does that count as a RC2014?

For what it's worth, if I include the full RC2014 kits, the Mini kits, the ROM Modules, and the Pageable ROM Modules, I'm currently looking at 932 RC2014 computers out there in the wild - but I suspect actual values are probably lower.  

Thoughts? Comments?  Suggestions?

Spencer

[PianoMatt]

How about defining each backplane as an RC2014. The way I see it (and you're welcome to disagree) the "soul" of the whole thing is the backplane, because it lets people go on their own RC2014 "journey", rather than just building a single board computer, bashing about in BASIC or CP/M for a bit and then moving on to the next kit.

[Ed Brindley]

I agree with Matt,

For me an RC2014 is an assembled computer using your 40 pin(or extended) expansion card format, so number of backplanes could be a good approximation as the number of people using 3rd party/strip board backplanes is probably small?

[Eric Matecki]

Le mercredi 26 juillet 2017 17:05:39 UTC+2, PianoMatt a écrit :

How about defining each backplane as an RC2014. The way I see it (and you're welcome to disagree) the "soul" of the whole thing is the backplane, because it lets people go on their own RC2014 "journey", rather than just building a single board computer, bashing about in BASIC or CP/M for a bit and then moving on to the next kit.

Yes, each backplane is a RC2014, or at least tries hard to become an RC2014 :).

Whatever boards are on it, even with a 6502 as CPU :)

Obviously a Mini count also as a RC2014, because it has the same bus (it's a kind of 'intelligent' backplane).

You CAN'T disagree with this definition :)

As a proof, with the new dual clock and dual I/O, the only PCB that hasn't drastically changed from the beginning is the backplane (veroboard ones apart, and even then, they works the same as the PCB ones, but just looks ugly (my taste, hardcore hackers may prefer it to the nice PCBs ...))

Sure there is *also* the Pro version, but the 'traditional' one still does its job well.

[Stephen Kelly]

Me too with the backplane suggestion.

For instance, say I have three ROM modules and only two backplanes, I can only have two RC2014's running at any one time.
Therefore to my way of thinking, I only would only have two RC2014's and some spares.

[Peter Fielden-Weston]

Hi All,

I too agree that the backplane is the 'heart' of the device. I have two backplanes, so I have two RC2014s.

Peter

[Jan S]

Cut to the bone, the backplane is the spinal cord in the RC2014.
It's a simple and clean definition :-)

Due to the modular character of the RC2014 as a "set", it becomes increasingly more unclear what a RC2014 can be.....

From Spencers point of view, it could be seen as the minimal set of "Spencer boards" to get a running system.

RC2014 Org:  Backplane, Z80, RAM, ROM, Clock, UART
RC2014 Mini: Backplane, Mini,.... (Necessary boards)
RC2014 Pro:  Backplane Pro,.... (Necessary boards)

From the user points of view, it's a little different as modules created by our selves or others combine the functions somewhat.

I'd go for the simple definition: The backplane :-)

[Steve Baines]

Number of Z80 boards.
Without a CPU, it isn't a computer.
Z80 is the original RC2014 CPU, and the only one you sell.

[Scott Lawrence]

I had a few arguments about where the little be should be draw.mn about rc2014/rc2014 clone/inspired project etc. but none of them really gelled.  

But I gotta say... I'm really tempted to use original RC2014 modules WITHOUT a backplane and wire them up another way just to ask the question if THAT is still an RC... but then I snap out of it and realize that it's a stupid waste of time. ;). 

LONG LIVE THE 'RC!  (And Spencer too I suppose)

S

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[Tor-Eirik Bakke Lunde]

I agree with the notion of simply counting the backplanes, but I think I'd rephrase the definition of RC2014 as a loosely defined platform. Not much helping there, but what I'm getting at is that while the RC2014 is a fun little computer it won't by itself maintain much attention past the "it's aliiiiive stage" - the real hobby lies in using it as a starting point and then make your own little expansions (or even complete redesigns).

I started on my own CF card since I was too scared of the tiny solder points and wanted something easier, then I pulled out everything and built a functional Apple 1 computer on the backplane - when that was working I made a mini version of that that still plugs into that same backplane. On the side I'm dabbling with a as of now non-functional SN76489 sound card and a Covox-like thing that only makes beeps so far and a video output device. I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, and at the moment I'm just happy nothing has caught fire.

The understanding and starting point all comes from the RC2014, even if it doesn't end up looking like a stock kit other than the backplane. If it's in mint condition, it hasn't been used :-)

[Tor-Eirik Bakke Lunde]

Considering the amount of options available and the complexity of things, wouldn't it be time for a collaborative effort on the documentation side?

Something akin to a wiki or something? Would love to see a collection of howtos and idea pages; compile your own code, install zork, the missing details from bakers ctc card to the whole unix thing.

See a lot of cool stuff on youtube from time to time, but a lot of it is "see what I can do" without the "you can do it too" (guides and schematics). A common site would provide a means to do that.

[Ed Brindley]

A wiki does sounds like a good idea, there's a lot of info in this group but it's hard to find things! The NASCOM BASIC documentation that someone kindly typed up so it's searchable, my spreadsheet of components for Scott Baker's boards that PianoMatt has also contributed to etc etc...

[Dave Pucknell]

That would be good .. Then I can move all the data in my private Wiki over to the public one. 

DAVE

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[Ed Brindley]

I guess the next question is, does Spencer have any plans to set up a community editable wiki on rc2014.co.uk?

If not, would you mind if one of us did? :)

My preference would be for a wiki that uses flat files rather than a database like dokuwiki, with changes pushed to a github repo for backup so everything is open.

Cheers,

Ed

On Thursday, 27 July 2017 09:44:18 UTC+1, DaveP wrote:

That would be good .. Then I can move all the data in my private Wiki over to the public one. 

DAVE

On Thu, 2017-07-27 at 01:28 -0700, Ed Brindley wrote:

A wiki does sounds like a good idea, there's a lot of info in this group but it's hard to find things! The NASCOM BASIC documentation that someone kindly typed up so it's searchable, my spreadsheet of components for Scott Baker's boards that PianoMatt has also contributed to etc etc...

On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 23:32:32 UTC+1, Tor-Eirik Bakke Lunde wrote:

Considering the amount of options available and the complexity of things, wouldn't it be time for a collaborative effort on the documentation side?

Something akin to a wiki or something? Would love to see a collection of howtos and idea pages; compile your own code, install zork, the missing details from bakers ctc card to the whole unix thing.

See a lot of cool stuff on youtube from time to time, but a lot of it is "see what I can do" without the "you can do it too" (guides and schematics). A common site would provide a means to do that.

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[Peter Fielden-Weston]

Hi All,

I think a wiki is a very good idea. But!

• Who would administer it?
  
• Would it be members only?
  
• Would it be moderated?
  
• Who pays for the website?

I have used a wiki system before and it very quickly got swamped with spam. Loads and loads and loads of spam. I took it down.

Peter

[Ed Brindley]

Will wait to see what Spencer thinks as I don't want to tread on his toes! :)

Cost should be fairly low and I'd say administration be open to known members off here who are interested?

Another option could be using the Wiki on the RC2014 GitHub repo, but I think GitHub wikis are a bit inflexible.

I think the key is log as the content is free and open (i.e. in git) so it can be forked/rehosted etc we'll be good.

Cheers,

Ed

[Scott Lawrence]

Is it possible to spin it up via wikia?

For personal wiki, I've been using W2-wiki for years. Markdown formatting, flat file system, no database. Although it had one password to access everything so...

S

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[Peter Fielden-Weston]

Hi All,

I used Mediawiki. It was good, flexible and configurable. It had the option of being a closed wiki, where a prospective member had t email the admin to get a login and password. I had left the comments part open to anyone and paid the price for it.

Peter

On 27 July 2017 at 14:07, Scott Lawrence <yor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it possible to spin it up via wikia?

For personal wiki, I've been using W2-wiki for years. Markdown formatting, flat file system, no database. Although it had one password to access everything so...

S

Sent from your iPhone.

On Jul 27, 2017, at 8:40 AM, Ed Brindley <ed.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

Will wait to see what Spencer thinks as I don't want to tread on his toes! :)

Cost should be fairly low and I'd say administration be open to known members off here who are interested?

Another option could be using the Wiki on the RC2014 GitHub repo, but I think GitHub wikis are a bit inflexible.

I think the key is log as the content is free and open (i.e. in git) so it can be forked/rehosted etc we'll be good.

Cheers,

Ed

On Thursday, 27 July 2017 12:57:59 UTC+1, Peter Fielden-Weston wrote:

Hi All,

I think a wiki is a very good idea. But!

• Who would administer it?
  
• Would it be members only?
  
• Would it be moderated?
  
• Who pays for the website?

I have used a wiki system before and it very quickly got swamped with spam. Loads and loads and loads of spam. I took it down.

Peter

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[Scott Lawrence]

Back in the day, we used a mediawiki for the iPodLinux project. It worked well for us, but as you say, comments and exploits at the time (being over 10 years ago, i'm sure that it's been secured a bit since!) led to lots of spam.

-s

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[Mike Strange]

 
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 15:40:08 UTC+1, Spencer Owen wrote:

I thought I'd put a simple question to you all, just to see what you think; What is a RC2014.  Or, more specifically, what particular combination of components or modules make up a RC2014?

Spencer, I saw your question as much more simplistic than perhaps others have.  For me it is a Z80 development platform that is without constraint of method of construction (can use PCBs or easily handwire on strip board); without need for expensive bus connectors and will be available very long term; has no constraint of a particular operating system, offers opportunity to develop both hardware and software within one's own ability; brings back memories of when this was the only way for hobbyists to use microprocessors; there is a wealth of historical development and current interest to draw on  .... oh and quite simply it's brought the fun back into the hobby!

Mike

[Spencer Owen]

Thanks for all the thoughts and comments.  It's certainly given me stuff to think about.

Initially I had discounted the idea of counting RC2014 sales by the backplane because initially the backplane was just a piece of Veroboard (stripboard).  Dozens of RC2014 kits had been sold before the Backplane 8 had even been designed.  It still has the 'upgrade' issue, in that the sale of a backplane (particularly a Backplane Pro) might be the birth of a new RC2014, but it might just be replacing a stripboard backplane.  However, it does make sense that it is pretty central to a RC2014.

Also, an initial look at the sales figures on Tindie, if I count all the RC2014 full kits (most of which sell with a backplane), the Mini, and the different backplane models, puts the sales at 1004!  This is really exciting, although it does make me wish I'd asked the question a few days ago so I could have a countdown to the big 1000 :D  Maybe I'll start counting down now to 2^10 :-)

I've been hesitant about setting up a wiki, because, with the exception of Wikipedia, I have never come across a single wiki based site that works well.  However, it's obviously something that people are keen on, and I appreciate that there needs to be an easier way to share specific bits of knowledge or experience.  I'm going to have a look at what options are currently out there, as the last time I looked at wiki software was a few years ago, and I'm sure things have moved on in that time.  I'd be happy to host it on the rc2014.co.uk server, and probably set it up so anyone can register for an account, but hopefully a few of you would help with moderating and running bits of it.  We'll see, but probably something for a different thread.

Cheers

Spencer

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[Ed Brindley]

Congrats on the sales! :D.

As others have said the RC2014 has rekindled my interest in electronics and computers in a way that Arduino, the Raspberry Pi etc failed at. :)

Re the wiki, I've been doing a bit of C programming for the RC2014, and z88dk keeps most of their info in a dokuwiki. https://www.z88dk.org/wiki/doku.php

Cheers,

Ed