Tossing KiCad into the trash can

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Well, time to bite the bullet.  My SCC card is nearly complete, but I am ditching my EDA tool, KiCad. The biggest problem is that it takes too much time to track the libraries.  Here are some issues.

-  I can still "compile" my ZORAk Mothership schematic and PCB, but I am getting errors on the libraries - sometimes.   

- Worming my way through the libraries is a daunting task.  Some parts are associated with a file, some parts associated with directories. 

-  I have had troubles maintaining a 3D footprint for a 3m LED!  The LED will appear in the 3D view and then disappear a few days later after editing another board in another project.  

-  I must have spent 6 hours building and rebuilding a hex buffer!  The default hex gates were enormous. Three simple buffer gates on the schematic took up as much room as the Z80 or SIO.  In addition, the power pins were no where to be found and I could not easily add a set of power pins. When edited in, the power pins showed up on all the individual gates. I had to modify the actual library data set. It is still quirky.

-  Equally frustrating, I could not find directions to create a sub-part to show power pins - even though half of the library parts have them.

-  Too, part selections are limited. The parts library did not include an SCC, so I had to take the SIO part and patch it. 

Basically, any adventure into parts creation and management is, at least, nine miles of bad road.

So . . .  

I am going to try EasyEDA. I am thinking it is best to use a product from a business which maintains an EDA tool and also operates a PCB fabrication house. There is a requirement to keep things consistent in that business model.  Too, EasyEDA seems to have a lot of satisfied users and, I hope, an active centralized support community.

Anybody, comments?

=Steve.

[Mark T]

I tried Kicad a few days ago as it seems so popular in this group that I thought it can't be too bad and maybe improved since last time I tried. First component I added was 2 x 40 header with 1a, 1b pin numbers, but then couldn't find a footprint to put this in the pcb. I find the process of selecting a footprint for every component very clumsy. Also the workflow is very manual, after adding components you need to tell it to annotate them, then assign footprints, then tell it to create a netlist, then read the netlist into the pcb layout.

I think I'll stick with the size limitations of Eagle free version for now.

I haven't tried EasyEDA, my main concerns are its web based, if the site goes away you no longer have access. I think you can keep local copies of gerber files and pdf of schematics and layouts, but if the website goes away you would have to create the layouts again in a different tool if you want to make changes.

I've also been using PCBArtist, but only for schematic capture and planning layout of components onto proto boards. I think you can only order boards through Advanced Circuits and it looks expensive compared to the chinese pcb manufacturers.

[Steve Cousins]

I've just started designing boards and I'm using EasyEDA.

I have only ever designed a few PCBs in my life and the most recent was 26 years ago.

EasyEDA is the only modern PCB design tool I've used, so I have nothing to compare it with.

However, I am very impressed with it generally and quite amazed by how responsive the web interface is. It feels like a native application.

I take Mark's point about being dependent on the company to continue running their service, but I think it is low risk and would not be a disaster for hobby projects if it did disappears. There are various save and export functions to allow you to keep your data and get the boards made elsewhere, but I don't know if you could import a project into anything else.

There are some issues with component libraries, but I think it is mainly my lack of familiarity with modern component naming.. What I have found myself doing is building my own component library, either by just re-saving the supplied objects or drawing up my own. I now have all the components I have currently used in my own private list, with names I can relate to and a style I like. It was not difficult to do and feels quite rewarding have my own library.

You can waste quite a bit of time looking through all the user supplied objects. Frankly I wouldn't start down that path. If the official libraries don't have what you want, just create your own by modifying something similar.

Once you get the hang of the libraries it is very efficient to grab a component and put it on the schematic, hit the update PCB button and the associated footprint appears on the PCB layout with "ratlines" showing where it needs to be routed to. So just drag the footprint into place and route the tracks. Hours of fun.

The ultimate test is the PCB turning up in the post and being exactly what you have drawn up. I'll soon be able to comment on that - first board due in a few days.

Steve (C)

[Linker3000]

Would there not be enough talent and enthusiasm within the group to curate an 'official' RC2014 Kicad parts library?

--Nigel.

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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Nah.  There'd be haggling over pin numbers, the size of the parts, preferences for footprint colors, complaints about shoddy workmanship and difficult people leading to ill feelings, arguments, fisticuffs, shootings, holocausts, and world wars.
: )

[Shaun ONeil]

fwiw, what I do with kicad is copy the libraries I need into the project's folder.  So each board has its own library of parts, and those parts won't be changed independently.  It's probably a pretty daft way of handling it, but it means if I open a board a year later, nothing's magically changed.

It sounds like library handling is getting a complete overhaul in kicad5 though, so I guess they've noticed this sore spot.

Shaun

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Steve Cousins wrote:

 

I take Mark's point about being dependent on the company to continue running their service, but I think it is low risk and would not be a disaster for hobby projects if it did disappears.

Hi Steve (C),

I think you are right.  Maybe it is our age (if I may speak for you)? 

Some musings:

o  Whatever happened to that Turbo C program I wrote that paints moving standing waves on a DOS screen.  

o  I had a really slick Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet that did DSP on small audio clips.

o  All of my technical drawings are in GEM Draw.

o  Who remembers Netscape?  Dial up bulletin boards? Hayes modems?

o  X.25 anyone?

We live in a throw away society, and we throw technology away too.

Waxing poetic,

=Steve.

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi Mark,

I have heard very good things about Eagle and probably would pay the modest fee on a month-by-month basis when I needed to.  That is my back-up plan.  I probably won't be doing RC2014 forever, so, a day at a time.

=Steve.

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 4:31:52 PM UTC-4, Mark T wrote:

I tried Kicad a few days ago as it seems so popular in this group that I thought it can't be too bad and maybe improved since last time I tried. First component I added was 2 x 40 header with 1a, 1b pin numbers, but then couldn't find a footprint to put this in the pcb. I find the process of selecting a footprint for every component very clumsy. Also the workflow is very manual, after adding components you need to tell it to annotate them, then assign footprints, then tell it to create a netlist, then read the netlist into the pcb layout.

 

=== Exactly !

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi Shaun,

I was hoping version 5 was around the corner, but I still haven't seen a date yet. I was hoping. 

There may be a way to upload KiCad files to EasyEDA?  
=Steve.

[phillip.stevens]

On Monday, 11 June 2018 04:47:00 UTC+10, ZORAk wrote:

Well, time to bite the bullet.  My SCC card is nearly complete, but I am ditching my EDA tool, KiCad.

I am going to try EasyEDA. I am thinking it is best to use a product from a business which maintains an EDA tool and also operates a PCB fabrication house. There is a requirement to keep things consistent in that business model.  Too, EasyEDA seems to have a lot of satisfied users and, I hope, an active centralized support community.

Anybody, comments?

FWIW, some time ago I purchased a "Hobby Licence" for Eagle. It was only $100, and seemed to be the right balance between a professional outcome, at an approachable price.

The Hobby Licence enables all the routing features of the professional version, but is limited to 10cm x 16cm board size, and 4 layers. That's on version 5.4, installed from the debian repositories, and the licence hasn't been grandfathered into their new versions from what I understand. I've not upgraded to a subscription, because my usage is very sporadic.

If you're only worried about the outcome, then IMHO Eagle is the way to go. I guess the issue is finding a price that suits.

Cheers, Phillip

[Marten Feldtmann]

Looks pretty cool, but what drives me crazy: they call Facebook and that's not ok these days and it seems, that this software would be a good candidate for legal problems here in Europe ... since the 25.05.2018.

Marten

[Spencer Owen]

It's sad to hear that KiCad isn't working out for you.  I know it has it's quirks and bugs, as does a lot of programs these days, but for me they are ones that I'm happy to work around, or they don't affect me much.  However, I have only had limited exposure to Eagle (and I really didn't get on with that at all), and not tried anything different.  Maybe it's a case of better the devil you know?

With regards to the libraries, I am kind of resigned to the fact that I am probably going to end up drawing my own parts anyway.  If it happens to exist in an existing library and looks exactly like what I want, then that's a bonus, but otherwise, I'm happy enough to draw the parts myself.

As a side note, one of the podcasts I listen to is Embedded FM.  It's generally a software focused podcast, and I hope to absorb programming knowledge through osmosis if I listen to it (without much success so far), however, in a recent episode (this one https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/245 skip to about 1 hour in ) they interviewed some hardware guys, and they put in to words something that I only knew on a subconscious level before; hardware libraries work nothing like software libraries.  Whilst most software folk are happy to all use the same library as everybody else, most hardware folk don't trust anybody else so will develop their own library.

[That being said, I still need to go and create all the 74HCT components I use instead of just putting 74LS on my schematics everywhere]

Cheers

Spencer

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[Scott Lawrence]

I cant find answers on the easyADA site;

- can it be used offline, or is network required?

- can it be used for commercial products?  Everything i see says open source, but if i want to make something closed... is it ok?

for my other kicad project, most of the available parts i needed were the wrong footprint anyway, so i had to make them myself, or to do esoteric things like pinouts for a 5 pin Din, but it's this nonstandard package, and it's for an Amiga keyboard, and wanted it labelled as such, etc.

-s

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[Steve Crompton]

I use Diptrace - works for me

[karlab]

Regarding EasyEDA

You can share or keep your PCB projects private.

You import and export to Eagle and KiCad.

Karl

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hello Spencer,

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 10:01:24 AM UTC-4, Spencer Owen wrote:

It's sad to hear that KiCad isn't working out for you.  I know it has it's quirks and bugs, as does a lot of programs these days, but for me they are ones that I'm happy to work around, or they don't affect me much.  However, I have only had limited exposure to Eagle (and I really didn't get on with that at all), and not tried anything different.  Maybe it's a case of better the devil you know?

S> There is a lot to be said for that and it is with reluctance that I am moving off KC.

With regards to the libraries, I am kind of resigned to the fact that I am probably going to end up drawing my own parts anyway.  If it happens to exist in an existing library and looks exactly like what I want, then that's a bonus, but otherwise, I'm happy enough to draw the parts myself.

S> KiCd has a Configuration Management issue with their libraries. Farming this out to users doesn't work. That is why you are building your own parts, yes?  When I have to mock up a hex buffer and search for a 5m LED model, I am wasting time. I can understand not having a old Zilog SCC, but it should have all the 7400 and 4000 parts ready to go. The libraries need an audit, standards, and less flexibility. Too many cooks, I think.

As a side note, one of the podcasts I listen to is Embedded FM.  It's generally a software focused podcast, and I hope to absorb programming knowledge through osmosis if I listen to it (without much success so far), however, in a recent episode (this one https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/245 skip to about 1 hour in ) they interviewed some hardware guys, and they put in to words something that I only knew on a subconscious level before; hardware libraries work nothing like software libraries.  Whilst most software folk are happy to all use the same library as everybody else, most hardware folk don't trust anybody else so will develop their own library.

S> Interesting point.  Never thought of it, although I know a lot of software guys don't want anyone messing with there code.

 

[That being said, I still need to go and create all the 74HCT components I use instead of just putting 74LS on my schematics everywhere]

S>  Not my cup of tea, yet it is fun to make things perfect.  I get it.

Toodles fro now,

 =Steve.

[Peter Willard]

I really don't see that Kicad parts management is any better or worse than all the other EDA tools available.

Yes, its kind of sucks as-is... but this is the same issue I have with Eagle, or Diptrace or AutoTrax DEX (place long list of examples here).  None of them have a manageable solution IMHO.

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi Spenser,

I might be running with KiCad after all.  I tried EasyEDA and did not like it.  They, too, had "contributor" CMOS4050 chips, all but one without power pins. I had to ferret through several libraries to find one that worked.  The libraries seem to be weak in EasyEDA, too.

Would you mind looking at a question I posted?  Here is the URL.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rc2014-z80/sd3f2vNgCT0

I haven't listened to  https://www.embedded.fm/episodes/245 yet, but plan to.

If you have any SW questions I might be able to answer them.  I am more a SW guy than a HW jockey.

=Steve.

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 10:01:24 AM UTC-4, Spencer Owen wrote:

[Spencer Owen]

Hi =Steve,

I'd seen your question, but had never come across (no pun intended) those symbols in KiCad before.

I've just had a search around, and learned something myself :)  You can get them by clicking on either of the 2 buttons on the right hand toolbar as shown on the attached image

The first one places the origin point for drill and place files.  I have never used this, and all the files I've sent to the PCB fab houses have worked just fine, but if you start specifying this origin point then it might cause problems.

The lower one sets the origin point for the grid coordinates.  Again, I've not used this - however with the origin point for all dimensions usually about an inch past the top left corner of the page, it can be annoying, so I can see myself setting this somewhere more logical (like top left of my PCB) in future.

Hope that helps

Spencer

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[Mark T]

Hi Steve,

Maybe EasyEDA is similar to Eagle where you sometimes need to invoke the power pins as a separate gate for each device. It depends on how the designer entered the data for the power pins.

Mark

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi, Mark

There were separate gates on some of the models, but no power gate for them.  Maybe they are in a completely different place.  What tool are you using?
-S

[Steve Cousins]

EasyEDA seems to present them like this in the schematic component editor:

Only the first gate in a set has the power pins.

If there is a better way I have not found it yet.

I totally agree the libraries are a mixed bunch. Seems to be the same with all these programs from what others have said.

I tend to take what I can find from the libraries and then edit it until I have something I'm happy. I'm gradually building my own library of the components I use. I rarely use library components as they come.

Steve C

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

That's the way it should be. That's the way I modified a KiCad part. But when I copy it, the power pins show up on all the sub gates.  It is what it is, so we deal with what we have.

I am wondering if Eagle parts fix nits like this.

[Mark T]

Hi Steve,

I'm using Eagle 7.6, I didn't bother upgrading because the new version wants me to register.

Libraries for TTL/CMOS seems quite complete, had to build a few devices for Z80, TMS9918, 4040 etc but for through hole components this is very easy as they are just on a 0.1 inch grid. Connectors and switches are a bit more difficult, but changing the grid size to match the lead pitch seems to work quite well. For SMT I can usually find an existing component to modify.

It has some problems with single row headers, using con-samtec library, as the pins in the schematic are on 0.05 grid instead of standard 0.1 inch, so if you try and connect a net it doesn't connect until you move the component. I've got in the habit of finishing nets at the component pin instead of starting at the component pin, as that keeps the net active unless it connects to the pin.

I like to set the topside component pad slightly smaller than the bottom side. Only way I know to do this is set shapes in design rules to use round pads instead of the library shape, then set restring on to top pads to 12mil and bottom pads to 16mil. It doesn't seem to be possible to do this in the device library. Unfortunately this doesn't work when I start mounting components on both sides of the board.

Mark

[Mark T]

In Eagle you can have different gates within a device, ussually the power connections are set up a a separate gate, with the default connection to Vcc and Gnd. You set the method for each gate so it can use a different one for the first gate than for the additional gates, so this could be used if you wanted power connections on the first gate. Normally power is on a separate gate and you set it to add on request from the invoke command, then you can put all your power connections at the bottom of your schematic with decoupling capacitors.

Kicad and EasyEda might have similar functions.

Mark

[Elia Mady]

For what it's worth, I have been using Eagle for over 10 years and am very much used to its quirks. I tried to switch to KiCad but it has been a tough uphill journey. The amount of mouse clicks required to do something which in eagle takes one click has put me off. I also found it difficult to follow the workflow and still haven't managed to build a library component. I gave up at the end and went back to Eagle.

That said, had I started with KiCad things would probably be different, I like that it is free and does seem powerful. Maybe in the future will try it again.

Elia

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi Mark,

In KiCad, a few chips have sub-gates and one them is for power.  Single footprint chips usually have power, but may not - as if the part is for use in schematics only.  Every part is a new experience.  =Steve.M

[ZO...@gladucalled.com]

Hi Elia,

I undertand completely.  The individual apps were written by different people and it shows.  The apps were never integrated (IMHO) so you have to do it yourself. =Steve.M

[Peter Willard]

There is a decent "kicad like a pro" course on UDEMY.COM currently on sale for $10.99.

[Daniel Quadros]

Thank you for the tip!

Daniel