Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Dave C]

Has anyone has extensive experience riding both models, particularly the ones made in the 2015-2018 time period, and had an opportunity to see how they rode differently and handled different terrain? I am very interested in these models but they have changed in some ways over the years and I am trying to get a sense of what made them different besides just brake style and sometimes wheel size.. I have searched the past threads but there is not much direct comparison/contrast information. Thanks, Dave in Carlsbad

[Ben Mihovk]

Sorry if this double posts...I typed out my reply and then...nothing!

Effectively, according to Riv's 2018 catalogue, Sam and Homer are 95% the same bike, but Sam is stouter and burlier. I'm guessing it's a tubing difference and the fact that most Sams have canti posts that can take a stronger brake than the sidepull. Comparing geometry from similar sized frames from the same year on Bikeinsights shows them to be very similar indeed.

I don't think you can go wrong with either, honestly. I love my Sam and I know I'd love a Homer. The slightly burlier Sam would be my choice because I'm over 200 pounds, but I think I'd never have any issues with a Homer in my size.

Ben in Omaha.

[Joe Bernard]

For the time period you're discussing I believe the Homer was the almost-flat-toptube Waterford model. That's a very nice (and expensive) road frame I owned once and deeply regret selling. I can't compare to a Sam but I can say if you find a Waterford or Toyo Homer in your size, buy it immediately. I hardly ever see them up for sale, the people who have them keep them! 

[aeroperf]

I got a Sam Hillborne in April 2015 (2014 frame, RBW built up and shipped in March 2015). 455mm chainstays.
I got an A. Homer Hilsen frame in 2019, and built it up myself with Deore 590/591 drive and tektro brakes.  475mm chainstays

I love the Sam.  It is my favorite bike of all time (OF ALL TME!).
I did not love the Homer.  It just felt “too flexy”.  I purchased it thinking it might be a better “light tourer” than the Sam, but it was too light and too flexible for me.
Ben used the term “burlier” for the Sam, and I absolutely agree.

They both had almost identical steering sensitivity - not too twitchy and not too stable.  I used 42mm tires for the Sam (700c) and 40mm tires  for the Homer (650b).  At 55 psi I didn’t really feel a noticeable difference due to tires.  Riding was on paved and cinder trails - not fist sized rocks.

But like I say, the Homer just felt too “flexy” for me. 
The Sam also just seems to me to handle a typical dirt road more comfortably.

BTW - they were set up almost identically.  Same saddle, same Albatross bars…

[Dave C]

What size were each frame? And how much do you weigh, and did you carry a lot of gear or minimal gear? Thanks for your input. I have an opportunity to buy either one of the exact models you’re discussing, and I’d consider the 2018/2019 Hilsen if I thought it was genuinely lighter duty than the Sam. 

[Johnny Alien]

I would agree that the AHH leans a little more on the lighter duty side than the SH. If that is what you are looking for then go for the AHH.

[Mike Packard]

Not to muddy the waters but I have a 2011 Homer and a first gen Roadini. It would be tough to tell you the difference in ride between them; the Roadini might be a tiny bit stiffer. Roadini definitely feels tough enough for commute and gravel. Figured I'd mention it since the new ones go on sale this week.

Mike in ATX

[aeroperf]

Ah, size.  The Sam is a 55, the Homer was a 51.  I have a PBH of 83 and weigh 195.  I usually rode with what you see in the picture - a rear bag for Allen wrenches and spare tube.
For me the Sam is about two Cm too tall, hence my stepping down a size with the Homer, which was about two Cm too short.  I’m apparently at the ends of the size ranges, not the middle.
But I also wanted to try the “longer chainstays” and the 650b wheel set-up and a number of other things.  In spite of the size, the bikes were almost exactly the same wheelbase.
Neither bike felt loose.  They were both good solid rides.  The biggest difference in feel, other than what I credit to flex, was the Hollowtech II front drive on the Homer - it seems noticeably stiffer to me than the square taper on the Sam, in a good way.

I sold on the Homer frame because it would have been the only bike in my stable that was 650b, and I wasn’t overwhelmed with the ride compared to the Sam.
The other bike in my stable is now a Soma Saga Disk - back to 700c and a little stiffer feel.

[Dave C]

First, the Bike on Bike drawing is super cool. Thanks for sharing. Second, has anyone spent time on an early model Homer AND a MIT 2018 or 2019 Homer? If so, I'd really like to know what you thought was different, particularly for long rides with maybe 10 pounds of food and supplies. I keep things light, which is why I always thought a Toyo Atlantis was a little too "stout" for longer road rides.

[aeroperf]

You might want to specify the size you may be looking for.  The Homer has gone through some pretty big changes. See below.
Bike Insights is your friend.  Compare candidates to a bike you have ridden that you know fits you.

[Dave C]

I ride a 61 cm or 58 cm Toyo Atlantis, a 59 or 61 cm Romulus, a 58 cm Soma road bike. I think I would be a 58 cm Homer or 55 cm Sam. Not really sure.

[RichS]

Hello Dave:

You note that you like to 'keep things light". Then go with the Homer. I currently own a 2015 Hillborne and have owned a 2019 MIT Homer; both 51cm., 650b 38mm. tires. Both bikes had identical setups and the Homer was certainly lighter — not by a lot but clearly discernible and consequently felt a little more lively to me. As others have indicated both handle similarly and offer a comfortable ride for distances of 100 miles or more in a day.

In sum, you won't go wrong with either bike.

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Dave C]

Rich, why did you sell the Homer and keep the Sam? Were you hauling more gear? Thanks 

[R Shannon]

Dave:

There is considerable overlap with the bikes so I opted to keep the Sam to have the ability for greater carrying capacity. Also, I had a custom road bike in the pipeline. Incidentally, my first Riv was an Atlantis followed by the Sage Green Sam; the Sam making a greater impression on me.

Best,

Rich in ATL

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b. 

My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean that direction if I had to choose. 

Toshi

[Dave Grossman]

I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  

[Dave C]

Maybe somebody is ready to sell an older Homer and just needs a nudge. 

[John Hawrylak]

All the replies provided good insight into the question.   However, if Grant P would only publish the tube thicknesses of the 3 frame tubes, the question would be much easier to answer, since both models use OS tubing.    Until then, it all a guessing game.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 7:48:19 PM UTC-4 Dave C wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Also I kinda wish - on Wednesdays and Saturdays, I change my mind about this all the time - that the Homer and Atlantis names hadn't been continued to what my eyes sees as very different frames. It makes discussion of them quite confusing. 

Joe "but I like the names, and the colors they're associated with" Bernard

[John Hawrylak]

Dave Grossman

What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.    Just curious.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown  NJ

[maxcr]

I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.

Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.

Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:

AHH 700x38 + dropbars

SH 62  700x44 + dropbars

SH 58 700x42 + Albatross

It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 

Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.

Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.

Best.

Max

[James]

I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or Waterford made?

[Hetchins52]

Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none under the down tube).

David Lipsky

[Joe Bernard]

THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third set. 

[lconley]

Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:

Laing

[maxcr]

James, if you bought that bike from me (the 63 AHH) it's a Toyo

Max

[James Copp]

That settles it Max! Thanks

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[J J]

Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.

Thanks again!

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

[lconley]

I don't know that the lack of a W means that is is not a Waterford, Waterford does have other end caps. But if you have the W, it is a Waterford as far as i know.

Laing

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

No W, but a certifiably Wisconsonian Hillborne with a popped seatstay - https://photos.app.goo.gl/orPod6s3vNemzvU8A 

And after they had fixed it better than new! - https://photos.app.goo.gl/zB8f86DjVCG2GNNq8

All before I stupidly sold it...

shopping for a 71 Hilsen

-Kai

[R Shannon]

That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly owned 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain models? I am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re on my Sam.

Best,

Rich in ATL

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[Bill Schairer]

In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?

Bill S

San Diego

[Danny]

The early Atlantis brochures show the W on the seat stay cap with Toyo being the only listed builder in the brochures. My Riv knowledge is not very deep, so perhaps Waterford was building the Atlantis as well at that time? or Riv was buying the seat stay caps from them?

Atlantis 2001 brochure

Atlantis 2002 brochure

-Danny

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[lconley]

I looked on Cyclofiend and where they were visible, the Atlantises all appeared to have the W. It may not be related to Waterford after all.

Laing

[frank_a]

The serial number will tell you if it’s a Toyo or Waterford built frame.

Toyo serial numbers are large and run across the bb shell while the Waterford numbers are smaller and are oriented around the shell, parallel to the outer edge. One photo is a Saluki and the other photo is a Waterford built Rosco.

The Toyo Atlantis’ read: AT0001 and so on, Homer: AH0001

SA0026 - the 26th Saluki

- Frank

[Hetchins52]

Here’s mine. A Toyo by its serial number and Frank’s pics. You can see one of the third water bottle mounts at the top in the photo.

Year? I don’t know. I bought the frameset third-hand, six years ago, and thought it might be 2009 using some of the info on CycloFiend.

David

[Greg J]

That seat stay cap was used across various models - I don't know if it is a Riv-sourced custom piece - but it doesn't have anything to do with Waterford (nor is it intended to be a "W" - just a decoration.

[Brian Turner]

Correct. I’ve seen the “w” caps on Toyo and Waterford Rivs alike.

On Nov 4, 2023, at 5:45 PM, Greg J <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:

That seat stay cap was used across various models - I don't know if it is a Riv-sourced custom piece - but it doesn't have anything to do with Waterford (nor is it intended to be a "W" - just a decoration.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/51ee74a2-de1d-4b12-bce4-acd2e81032f6n%40googlegroups.com.

[aeroperf]

Re-reading this a year or more later - I'm still looking for someone to post who rode both a Homer and a Sam extensively, and kept the Homer.

Anyone?