Beginners SLR camera?

[Patrick Moore]

My daughter has come to like film photography during her first
attempts using a high quality borrowed manual SLR.

I'd like to get her an SLR, preferably manual, preferably with a
flash, of decent quality but not too expensive; and I have no idea
what "expensive" means here.

She would also be happy with a point and shoot, but I think that if
affordable that a minimally decent manual with flash would be more
satisfying.

I know many of you are photographers; what would you recommend, and
why? Manual or automatic?

I might be in the market for a decent used camera for her 20th birthday.

My posted photographs are really bad, I know that, and this despite
some care. She might be able to help me learn how to take better ones.

--

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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Eric Norris]

Patrick:

Excellent option is the Canon T50. Simple, cheap SLR (you can find them with a Canon lens for less than $50 on eBay) that uses the common Canon FD lens mount.

Manual focus with automatic exposure only, so if she wants to learn about exposure it’s not the right camera.

If she wants a camera that lets the user set shutter speed and aperture, try the Minolta SRT 101. They’re going for about $60-80 on eBay with a 50mm Minolta lens. It takes lenses with the Minolta SR mount, which means that, like the Canon, there are a bunch of nice used lenses out there.

Hope this helps! Film is fun!

--Eric N

> On May 20, 2021, at 11:11 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My daughter has come to like film photography during her first

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[Matthew Williams]

Hi Patrick,

I started out with my parents' Olympus OM-1 with a 50mm lens: manual, with a built-in light meter. I later upgraded to a Nikon FE2, with an 28-80mm zoom with a macro. The FE2 is also a manual, with an aperture-priority automatic feature.

Both of those cameras are excellent cameras for a beginner. I would absolutely recommend starting with a fully manual camera to learn the basics of exposure and lighting. A 50mm is a good starter lens; the 28-80 zoom & macro has more options for closeups and learning the basics of composition.

For a beginner, I'd recommend:

Manual, with built-in meter:
Pentax K1000
Olympus OM-1
Nikon FM2

After that, I'd graduate to:
Manual, with built-in meter and aperture-priority automatic:
Nikon FE2

Manual, with built-in meter and shutter-priority automatic:
Canon AE1

The Pentax and Olympus are good cameras that won't break the bank; the FM2 is more expensive, but it will last a lifetime. I still use my FE2.

A 50mm lens with a set of red and yellow filters would be a good setup for a beginner. Once she's comfortable with the 50mm, you can get a multi-purpose lens.

On May 20, 2021, at 11:11 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Paul Richardson]

i'll cast a vote for a canon ae-1.  easy to come by, very beginner friendly, and, with some basic understanding of the exposure triangle, not too difficult to get nice looking photos that were obviously not taken on an iphone.  i say forget the flash and try higher iso film if she wants to shoot in low light.  

paul

takoma park, md.

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

Going with others in the now closed iBob thread.

I vote for Pentax K1000, super plentiful, cheap lenses. Fully manual.

It's what I learned film on, being a recent beginner myself. 

The light meter was off by a couple stops on mine but I was able to adjust the ISO and make up for it, shot many many rolls on it happily.  Only recently sold it because I found another on craigslist to see if the meter worked better on it(it did), but it also came in a lot with an Canon AE-1(did not care for the system, shutter priority is not my thing), and a Minolta X-700(really liked the system and decided to keep it also aperture priority yay! and rokkor glass is very nice) and sold the rest for store credit to get a nicer large format camera. Toyo 45CF, in case anyone is curious :)

I think you'd do great with a fully manual such as K1000, FM2, or OM1 as Matthew said, then upgrade from there.

--ben

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[Cyclofiend Jim]

Ha... dusting off my "back in the day" file...
Worked in a photography shop just as the first Canon Sure-Shots came out - we sold everything from Leica through off-brand stuff. Even had a full darkroom department. (Kids, ask your parents...)

True manual = mechanical shutter.  

The Canon AE (which stood for Automatic Exposure) series was excellent, but used a larger battery and wouldn't work if it went dead. They were auto-exposure (AE1 let you set the shutter speed manually, and the lens set the aperture). Lenses were great, and the were solid units. The predecessor to that was the FT series, which were tanks. I had one for a while and held onto it for a long time just for that reason, they were the RBW's of the SLR world, as were the Nikon FM (manual) models. The old Nikkormats (precursor to Nikon) were sturdy beasts as well, though you have to make sure you have the right lenses for them. 

I used mostly Olympus OM-1's, as they had fully mechanical shutters and were small but tough. Good lenses. Low profile. Simple +/- metering in the viewfinder.

Minolta SRT (201?) series were bigger and bulkier, but worked really well.  Circle/ring metering. 

Pentax K1000 was another in that same style. Basic. Solid. Used the "bayonet" Pentax lenses rather than the screw-on lenses of the Spotmatic (another good option if you can find the lenses).

If you can't find factory lenses, the Vivitar Series 1 lenses from that era were good. 

- J

[Jacob Byard]

You would be hard pressed to better than Canon AE-1 Program. It uses the FD lens system. That makes buying lens much cheaper. The build quality is top level. It’s an excellent camera.

The Olympus XA2 is a small pocketable rangefinder (more or less anyway). If she’s interested in street photography then this is the camera to get. This is my most reached for camera.

If she’s not dead set on an SLR then a TLR is an option. These are very cool cameras that server as a great teaching device.

I’d buy the Canon. It’s got tons of flexibility and she’ll be able to use it for years to come.

Cheers,

Jacob


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 20, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My daughter has come to like film photography during her first

[ascpgh]

I began my bike based photography with a Rollei 35 S taveller 35mm film camera with a lens that retracted for compact storage. That, a small tripod and a pneumatic shutter release all fit in a padded Eagle Creek zip bag to go in my seatpack. 

Not exactly your wish list but it has manual settings for film speed, shutter speed and f-stop right there on the front. Those settings input to the light meter needle that you matched for the light level, choosing shutter speed or aperture priority. Aim is by viewfinder as SLR not feasible with the retracting/telescoping lens structure and focus was a manual ring you turned to the estimated objective distance. The shutter release has standard threading, shoe for a powered flash on the bottom and a tripod fixture. 

It was the most function in the a compact size or complexity possible but what I learned about photographic theory and composition in the years using it couldn't be improved by a full body SLR. Graduation to the potential that they provide was earned by the lessons of this little camera. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Eric. I see this body with the lense on Amazon for $78: https://www.amazon.com/Canon-T50-Camera-35mm-50MM/dp/B00VHCSE08

I am as ignorant of cameras as my daughter is of AM hubs. What do others think of this as a motivated beginner's camera?

Will I have to buy a light meter separately?

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--

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, all; I am entirely camera-ignorant, since I gave up
photography about age 11 1/2 after starting to experiment with my
mother's Brownie at about age 11 1/4. (You can verify this by the
quality of my photos onlist.)

The Olympus OM-1, Canon AE-1, and Pentax K1000 seem to be favorites.
All these have built-in light meters, no? And they seem to come up on
Amazon for =/< $200.

Upshot: I can't go wrong with any of these 3?

Many thanks again.

[Eric Norris]

Patrick:

That’s a little high for a T50. I recently bought one with a Canon 28mm lens for $30 + shipping. Works great. These cameras are very common, so check around for a better price.

If your daughter just wants to go out and shoot pictures, this is a great choice. Exposure is fully automatic (there’s a built-in exposure system, so no external meter needed), and it advances the film automatically. She’ll just need to compose the shot and focus. It’s very simple to use, but Canon lenses are quite nice and will produce crisp images.

The T50 is also a bit lighter than many other SLRs.

As others have pointed out, there are many choices out there. Let me know if you need any help.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Benjamin L. Kelley]

I've been buying lots of stuff from CatLABS in Jamaica Plain, MA.

Omer does a great job of testing and inspecting each item he sells, and the prices often beat eBay.

If you're in the market for film gear, I can highly recommend them.

https://www.catlabs.info/category/35mm-cameras-and-lenses   

Also yes, the OM-1, AE-1, and K1000 all have built in light meters, but if you are buying used, you'll need to know that they actually work.(Another plug for CatLABS is that Omer tests all gear before selling and clearly states any defects or features that do not work consistently.)

Circuity degrades.  My mention of the light meter on my K1000 being off by several stops,  It worked but had degraded in one of the resistors.  So with some testing I came up with a cart of where I needed to set the ISO settings in comparison to the actual film, to get the meter to work correctly.

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[Drew Saunders]

One advantage of keh.com or catlabs.com or other real photo dealers vs. individual sellers on Amazon or Ebay is that there's a good chance that the camera has been checked out and confirmed to be working. With most of the suggested cameras, there's a very high chance that the foam seals around the film door are shot, which would cause light leaks. I got a good deal on a Canon A-1 recently on Ebay, but the foam seals were definitely shot (used up a roll of film to test that), so I found a replacement seal set (also on ebay) and did the replacement myself, now the camera is good and light tight and will be good for a decade or two. If all of that sounds daunting, then go with a better seller and make sure they've tested and confirmed that the foam seals are good, and will give a full refund if they're not.

Drew (who lost count of the number of film cameras I own somewhere around a dozen, 3 of which I know to be good (two of those I use) and 2 or 3 others probably work)

[Patrick Moore]

More useful information; thanks again. Daughter wants to learn how to control the picture, so full manual is good. And I'd guess that $200 is the ceiling right now, until she should really prove interest. Good to know that highly recommended options are so readily available and inexpensive.

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[Patrick Moore]

This is essential news about light meters; for this and the Catlabs source, thanks.

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[Drew Saunders]

That's catlabs.info, not .com, and here are their 35mm cameras: https://www.catlabs.info/category/35mm-cameras-and-lenses

[Eric Norris]

Welcome to the world of old film cameras!

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Christopher Cote]

While the Pentax K1000 is the go-to beginner's manual film SLR, I had one for many years and was never really jazzed with the results. I have my father's Olympus OM-10 now, and it seems to produce much sharper images than the K1000 ever did. Maybe my K was bad? Anyway, I'd recommend the OM-10, as long as you get the optional manual shutter speed control module. Without it, the camera operates in aperture priority (nothing wrong with that, it's my preferred way to shoot), but the ability to go fully manual is really nice. The OM-10 is not fully mechanical, the shutter is operated electro-mechanically and requires a couple of cheap, readily available button cell batteries that last for years.

Chris

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 2:11:29 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Chris. I don't dispute your reasoning, but for myself, wholly ignorant and having to rely on the popular vote for guidance, I don't want to make decisions among technologically different models with no basis in experience to do so. The people have spoken!

Funny, as I said (or think I said), my last really technical interest in cameras was circa 1966 when my mother gave me her old Kodak Brownie camera and I messed around with it, even developing my own contact prints. This interest lasted about until 1967. 

After that, I briefly got involved with an early aughts boblist fad of taking very nice bike ride photos with those primitive "stick" digital cameras that were being given away for marketing puposes or sold at cash register displays for $4.99. I recall the complicated upload process to get the files onto the Web. Kent Peterson, former epic fixed gear rider, and afficionado of fenders made from Coroplast electioneering signs, posted a number of really excellent such photos on the iBoblist. Here is one that he gave me permission to use for my work website, but which I did not use; theme: journey to your fulfilling career, etc etc etc, but I am afraid that the message might be taken as, just an unending road to professional anomie. Still, the photo itself is beautiful, and the technology was -- IIRC -- less than primitive.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Peter White]

A friend of mine had a K1000. I had a Canon F-1 with one of their aftermarket super bright focusing screens. When I looked through her viewfinder I could barely see a thing. But her photos were still much better than mine. ;-(

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[David Person]

I'm surprised Grant hasn't weighed in.  

[Shawn Granton]

Hey all-

There have been some good suggestions on this thread. Let me throw in one more and veer off from this (mostly) SLR discussion:

I'd recommend a nice fixed-lens rangefinder, most likely one from Japan made in the 60s and 70s. You don't get the through-the-lens viewing of an SLR nor the ability to change lenses. But the "lack of different lenses" can be an advantage, as you learn by using what you got and can't go down the "well, if I just had a 28mm lens" road. Rangefinder focusing is quick and intuitive, and pretty accurate if the rangefinder has been adjusted correctly.

These fixed-lens rangefinders can be broken down into two broad categories, and yes I am generalizing:

• Bigger ones that usually had a choice between full manual exposure and some automatic exposure options. These tend to be from the 60s
• Smaller ones from the 70s. Many of them were automatic exposure only, though some did come with manual exposure override

The first camera I bought when I got back into film last year was a Minolta Hi-Matic 7s. Introduced in 1966, it was of the bigger variety with choice of automatic or manual exposure. The Rokkor PF 45mm f/1.8 lens gives me great pictures. I got mine for under $50 plus shipping. A quick scan of eBay shows that it's still possible to snag one at that price, though if you want one that's guaranteed to work, it'd be better to get one from one of the sources mentioned previously in this thread.

Best,

Shawn

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49469885803_6a3caa2ea0_b.jpg

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:34:40 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

Thanks, all; I am entirely camera-ignorant, since I gave up
photography about age 11 1/2 after starting to experiment with my
mother's Brownie at about age 11 1/4. (You can verify this by the
quality of my photos onlist.)

The Olympus OM-1, Canon AE-1, and Pentax K1000 seem to be favorites.
All these have built-in light meters, no? And they seem to come up on
Amazon for =/< $200.

Upshot: I can't go wrong with any of these 3?

Patrick,

All the cameras you've listed and others have suggested are all good choices. However, there are other equally important considerations, because you can't take images with just a camera body alone. You also need lenses, and other accessories (e.g., TTL flash). Particularly with lenses, you may see one or two particular types that are more prevalent, and cheaper, so that would be the other considerations. If you get hooked, there are also particular lenses with a distinctive "look"; I mean, there are enthusiasts who will pay quite a nice premium for lenses with good "bokeh".

A 50mm/f1.4 is a nice start, but as the photographer progress in skill and style, you may need a 105mm/f2.5, or 35mm/f2. Or perhaps a macro for extreme closeups, and a PC lens for the folks who like architecture. Again, you want to make sure you can find the lens you want at good prices.

[David Person]

This article may be helpful. From Blue Moon Camera’s blog in Portland, OR.  

https://bluemooncameracodex.com/technical-reviews/2018/5/17/beginner-35mm-slrs

[EricP]

I agree, that's a good article. Will mostly parrot the others here. Started with a Pentax K1000 and ended up with a Nikon FM before going down the Leica hole. 

FWIW, my suggestion would be look for a Nikon FM10 with a 50mm 1.8 series E lens. Inexpensive (the body is mostly plastic) but gives quality Nikon photos. It's also lighter than earlier metal body cameras. Now, if you might be dropping it, then get a metal body. But if you're careful, I don't see why that wouldn't work. 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Patrick Moore]

Shawn: Would a Kodak Model 1A Autographic be a good example of a fixed-lense range finder? I ask because someone elsewhere has tentatively made noises about offering me one. He did not state the age (apparently it was made for ~11 years between 1916 and 1927, and had a number of changes to the design over the years). I thought that, even if Catie is not interested, it might be just the thing for me to practice on, to learn photography basics, about which I am horribly ignorant. You can still get 120 mm film in bw and color.

Man! And this would date from that long, long ago period when the US was still technology leader for consumer goods.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Benz: Thanks, good point. But I gather from superficial web browsing that 50 mm lenses for the K1000 are readily and cheaply available; and if Catie should end up wanting others, then she can get a (real) job. Or prove to her doting father that she is very serious about film photography (so that she'll choose a new film camera over a new iPhone).

David: Thanks for that link. 

[Shawn Granton]

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 5:51 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Shawn: Would a Kodak Model 1A Autographic be a good example of a fixed-lense range finder?

No. That looks to be a folding camera with viewfinder, not rangefinder. It looks cool, but even if that camera works (and we're talking a century-old machine), it uses 116 film, which hasn't been made in who knows how long. (Yes, it looks like it may be possible to respool 120 film onto 116, but do you want to go through the trouble?)

If you get that camera it would most likely be a good display piece.

I'd stick to what's been suggested.

Best,

Shawn

[Patrick Moore]

120 mm film, and the OP says he used it, albeit long ago, to dip his feet into photography. He has no reason to believe it no longer works.

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[Shawn Granton]

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:05 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

120 mm film, and the OP says he used it, albeit long ago, to dip his feet into photography. He has no reason to believe it no longer works.

Patrick-

Everything online about this camera says it uses 116 film, not 120. They are similar, but not the same. Has this person used 120 film in it? Maybe it was modified at some point, or it's actually a different camera than described? Unfortunately, I can't tell you these things, I can only say that it's not the type of camera I was referring to. If you want that, check this out:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1312&_nkw=minolta+himatic+7s&_sacat=0

I can make a list of some other fixed-lens rangefinders worth checking out, if you want.

And there are ways to spool 120 film onto 116:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193259971118?chn=ps&var=493629870421&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=493629870421_193259971118&targetid=1262779892129&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9061079&poi=&campaignid=11614425326&mkgroupid=125167414711&rlsatarget=pla-1262779892129&abcId=9300456&merchantid=114697619&gclid=Cj0KCQjw16KFBhCgARIsALB0g8K5GdmgfAIcdT1p6GX8CVSgeiN3Md70V_GmZ43pcWBfjxqc4rPsh1YaAvqAEALw_wcB 

If you do want to use the camera your friend wants to give you, note that it won't have any focusing aid, so you'll need to guess distance. Some folks are okay with that, others not. Also, it will not have a meter so you'll need an external meter or use the Sunny 16 rule. Here's a recent blogpost from someone detailing their use of a similar type of camera:

https://alysvintagecameraalley.com/2021/05/21/zeiss-ikon-nettar-515-medium-format-in-the-palm-of-your-hand/

Best,

Shawn

[Patrick Moore]

Owner says 120 and so does:

https://www.mikeeckman.com/2015/08/kodak-no-1-autographic-special-model-a-1916/

Apparently they made other "special" models that took 116 mm film.

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[Patrick Moore]

And thanks for the links and information!

[Brian Carbajal]

To mirror some comments about a range finder, I think this may also be a good route for a beginner. There is a nice discipline in framing up with a range finder. It feels more "real" than using an SLR. Not to say one is better than the other, but I firmly believe think that using a rangefinder forced me to make better compositions. My first camera was a digital SLR and I vividly remember being more concerned with focus, and bokeh– the really "cool" stuff that comes with using an SLR. 

My freshman year of college I took a film photography course and purchased a Yaschia Lynx 14e. It has a f1.4 45mm lens. I took some of my favorite photos on that camera... it only cost me like $15. It had a broken light meter and some light leak issues. I already had some experience under my belt so I could expose by eye and just used gaff tape to seal up the back of the camera. Yashica also makes a camera called the electro... not sure if its full manual but its famously known as the camera Peter Parker uses. Yashica just down right made some great user friendly cameras back in the day. Great optics too. Fast forward 5 years I'm in the Leica system... currently using a Leica Q but had I an M10-P for some time. Looking back I took much better compositions on the M10-P.. I attribute that to the rangefinder. Everyone is different though. 

Just to add a further SLR recommendation: another great SLR from Japan is the Mamiya Sekor 1000 dtl. Pair it with a 35 or 50 and its a workhorse. Minolta's 70/80s offerings are great too. Lots of choice– can't really go wrong with anything TBH. Just put some quality film in any camera and it will look good. 

I'm sure you've considered digital but another great option is a used Canon t3i with a 24mm Pancake lens. This system is dirt cheap now and holds up years later. There is a lot of discipline and magic in film, but she will also learn a lot by needing to edit her photos... and the investment to buy film, develop, scan, etc is removed from the equation. Again, can't go wrong at all. The only problem you have on your hands is a plethora of choice. 

Also OP, 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but look on facebook groups to see what's out there for sale. Plenty of film camera groups to buy/sell/trade. Much more reliable than ebay sellers as most sellers are not photographers or enthusiasts. Just thrift shop flippers. 

[Benjamin Park]

there are so many good options. Perhaps consider an old rangefinder too- lots of interesting and cheap japanese or russians that take cool photos.

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 3:41:41 PM UTC-4 jacob...@gmail.com wrote:

You would be hard pressed to better than Canon AE-1 Program. It uses the FD lens system. That makes buying lens much cheaper. The build quality is top level. It’s an excellent camera.

The Olympus XA2 is a small pocketable rangefinder (more or less anyway). If she’s interested in street photography then this is the camera to get. This is my most reached for camera.

If she’s not dead set on an SLR then a TLR is an option. These are very cool cameras that server as a great teaching device.

I’d buy the Canon. It’s got tons of flexibility and she’ll be able to use it for years to come.

Cheers,

Jacob


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 20, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My daughter has come to like film photography during her first
> attempts using a high quality borrowed manual SLR.
>
> I'd like to get her an SLR, preferably manual, preferably with a
> flash, of decent quality but not too expensive; and I have no idea
> what "expensive" means here.
>
> She would also be happy with a point and shoot, but I think that if
> affordable that a minimally decent manual with flash would be more
> satisfying.
>
> I know many of you are photographers; what would you recommend, and
> why? Manual or automatic?
>
> I might be in the market for a decent used camera for her 20th birthday.
>
> My posted photographs are really bad, I know that, and this despite
> some care. She might be able to help me learn how to take better ones.
>
> --
>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>

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[Tim Rogers]

My advice is to get her involved in the choice to see what feels best to her in her hands. Find a local camera store that handles used equipment and let her try a few on for size. Some cameras will fit her hands better, or feel lighter or heavier. Some have awkward ergonomics, quirky controls, or low quality viewfinders. Like bikes, cameras that “fit” will be used more. I’d also advise starting her with a fixed focal length lens in the 35-50mm range. That will encourage her to “zoom with her feet” by moving around to capture better images. If she gets hooked, you can worry about brand, quality, etc. in her next camera. And believe me, there will be many, many others.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, all. I've got a couple of possibilities in process; thanks again to the offerers and to all who gave advice.