September 10 Blahg, drive train gearing development

[Patrick Moore]

Grant spoke of .... the SRAM-SHIMANO cogs race that, you should know, is going to culminate in an internal drive train that will be the end of the obvious mechanical bicycle in..ten years?

I like Grant's preference for simplicity, but I also think that there are huge undeveloped possibilities in hub gear drivetrains that will re-connect us with an ancient line of  drivetrain development that started commercially in the 1880s -- there were earlier experiments -- and that Sturmey Archer continued with its dozens of models until the 1950s.

Since then, development has been aimed at the utility market, except for Rohloff, but I think there are great possiblities for better designed and better made hub gears with more intelligent gear spreads and greater reliability and lower drag.

Note that IVT claims 97% efficiency for its CVT hub gear.

Patrick Moore, who expects a Sturmey Archer TC in the mail on Tuesday (2 speed fixed with direct high and 86.54% underdrive, 76" and 66"), and who also has AMs (3 speed freewheel: 111.5% overdrive, direct, 86.54% underdrive, 72-65-56) and a TF (2 speed fixed, direct and 75% underdrive, 72", 54").

that more or less dead-ended in the 1960s, with some exceptions like Rohloff and Nuvinci

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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[dougP]

Shimano has already patented an internal gearbox system.  It's quite clever.  Two cassettes with a chain connecting them & a derailer.  It looks like intended for bottom bracket mount, not hub.  It would force frame makers to design around their system.  Quite Shimano. 

I read about it some time ago & don't remember where.  The author described the system from what he could figure out in the patent.  A google search will probably locate it.

dougP

[Joe Bernard]

I think part of what Grant's getting at is that all derailer drivetrains will be electronic in 10 years and the only mechanical ones will be hub-gear. Or that's how I see the future so I extrapolated it from his words. 

Joe Bernard

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 9:46:08 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

[WETH]

Hi Patrick,

I'd add Pinion to your list in addition to Rohloff.  I recently had Bob at Bantam Bicycle Works build me a custom around a Pinion P1.18 gearbox.  I've ridden it 1,000 miles since early July, including a 6 day, 340 mile tour through Ohio.  I enjoy the gear spread, the smoothness of the carbon belt drive, and the lack of regular maintenance.  Since I am straying off topic already, I'll leave you with a link: https://pinion.eu/en/p-line/

And a photo.

All the best,

Erl

Kensington, MD

[Jon Dukeman]

Thanks Erl

Nice machine. Thanks for the technology pages. Really cool stuff.

Jon

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[Patrick Moore]

I've read about recent bb area gearboxes -- I've read the same article about Shimano's, which is very interesting, relying on chains and cassettes; I wonder if that means less internal drag than a bunch of cogwheels in a tight space, especially epicyclic gears?

But although these "occasional use" wheels are starting to become "main wheels" -- my original thoughts for hub gears were as occasional alternatives to fixed wheels, since my hill climbing and headwind abilities are not what the once were, and the AM wheel is now quasi permanent on the Matthews 2:1 -- I do like riding with very few but well selected gears, and these hubs each n their own way provide that. 

I understand Grant's fear of "black box" derailleur systems; I much prefer cables and no detents for my derailleurs. But somehow I do like riding gears with minimal range and presence all contained nicely in a rear hub.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

BTW, very nice!

Do you notice more drag than with a derailleur drivetrain?

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[iamkeith]

Nice, Erl.  Pinion is my dream.  As I get closer to knowing what my one, final, forever bike might look like in terms of geometry, it becomes easier to justify the cost.  My frustrations with conventional drivetrains, which mirror Grant's (ever-changing standards for marketing's sake, electronics), make it easier to justify REGARDLESS of cost.  

I don't get the fear of the  black box either.  It's just a cover that keeps things clean, while simultaneously eliminating all the issues that come from a slack chain.  I disassembled and re-built a sturmey archer hub when I was 8, and it still worked.  10 years later,  I did the same thing again with a seized, 30+ year old one and then rode it for several years in college until I got my first mountain bike in the mid 80s.  I'm currently adding cable stops to my quickbeam so I can permanently put a 3-speed on it.  At some point, IGs are going to be the last retrogrouch sanctuary.

[dougP]

Keith:

You might want to look up "Nomad's Trails" on youtube.  It's a couple from Finland who set out to around the world & start by crossing Europe, then turning down the west coast of Africa, before having to stop due to the virus restrictions.  They had enough troubles with their conventional gear systems to look into alternatives.  They got new Tout Terrain touring bikes, one equipped with the Pinion system & the other Rohloff, both with belt drives.  In February, they set off from Helsinki to go to the Arctic Circle.  At last report, both systems had endured the extreme conditions with no problems.  Maintenance was washing off the the belt with hot water to clear the teeth of ice. 

dougP

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of drivetrains simple, complex, electric, and manual: I got the TC (2 speed fixed, direct and 0.8654 ratios). It's much heavier than the already portly TC: 940 g sans cog, spacers, washers, etc, versus 640 for the TC. I think they use a dual epicyclic compared to the simple epicyclic of the TF. And the TF seems to have less lash.

What I'd like to see is a new and much more intelligent S3X with ASC ratios, modern aluminum hub with modern flange thickness, and modern spacing -- and! more precise machining to reduce lash to a minimum. Sure, dream on; no one is going to manufacture such a niche project short of the Fixie Resurrection.

I'm dithering which of the 2 Rivs/Riv clones to use which hub with -- different rims. The TC's shell needs considerable rust work; I'll not do the full re-chrome, but others have suggested various potions to remove rust and protect steel with protective coat.

Again, to explain the madness, I prefer fixed but I'm not getting younger.

[WETH]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks.  

No, I do not notice drag, though others, who scientifically measure such things, do.  With a steel frame, Riv Saddlesack, racks, front basket, and a suburban/urban commuters cadence and pace, I do not feel a difference.  Nor do I see a time nor average speed difference compared with my derailleur equipped RBT.  (I actually thought the 650bx48 tires on the Bantam would be noticeably slower than the 700 x 38 tires on my RBT.)  The whole Pinion/belt interface is so smooth; it is sublime.  My Onyx instant engagement rear hub eliminated any engagement delay that is often cited as a drawback to the Pinion system.

Here are two articles about the Pinion; the second speaks to "drag".

https://www.cyclingabout.com/tour-with-a-pinion-gearbox/

https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

All the best,

Erl

[WETH]

Keith,

Thanks. Yes, as I worked with Bob at Bantam and read more about Pinion, I, too, saw this as a "final, forever bike".  So far the bike, the Pinion system, and belt drive, have exceeded my high expectations.  The grip shift control did limit my use of swept back bars like an albatross, but the Jones H-bar is proving a good compromise.  There is an after market thumb shifter available, but I am waiting for Pinion to produce one someday or for the aftermarket one to get more longterm reviews.

all the best,

Erl

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Erl; I'll be interested to look at those links; I may have read them in the past. Good to know that you sense no drag.

Again, lovely bike.

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[Nick Payne]

Besides Rohloff and Pinion, there are now other companies getting into the same IGH/gearbox market.

Kindernay, a Norwegian company (https://kindernay.com/), make 7- and 14-speed hubs, and the French company Effigear have gearboxes that fit frames designed to take the Pinion gearboxes.

I think the Kindernay is quite interesting. The hub flanges, on which you build the wheel, and the gearbox can be easily separated, so you could have different wheels and swap the one gearbox between them:

I've been using a Rohloff hub on my touring bike for 20+ years. Mine was a retrofit onto a Litespeed Blue Ridge touring frame, but my wife has a Thorn Raven, designed from the ground up as a frame for the Rohloff hub, it uses the OEM dropout, so no torque arm is needed, and has an eccentric BB to obviate the need for a chain tensioner.

Nick