Derailer for A. Homer Hilsen

[Doug Williams]

I have a Hilsen with 28.6mm seat tube and it looks like there is already a shim on there to mount my derailer, a clamp on Shimano Claris Triple. The shim seems to make it about 32mm. So if I replace this derailer, would a 31.8/28.6 clamp on be correct?

I found a bottom pull Shimano CX70 in that size that looks nice. Everyone raves about the CX70 so I wonder if it would be better than my Claris? The Claris basically works, but it is not exactly smooth. I am currently running the Sugino Triple Crank 46-36-24 but I might switch to the Rene Herse 42-26 or wait for Riv's Silver Triple 44-34-24 to be back in stock. In any event, when this set of chain rings wears out, I am done with the Sugino hidden bolt. I just stripped the bitch and had to drill it out, so I'm done with hidden bolts.

So...would the CX70 work with both double and triple 8 speed friction only (Silver Bar End) shifters? Or is it only going to work with a double? Would the CX70 be better than the Claris?

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

It will fit that shim if it doesn't already have its own. Is it better than Claris? It's prettier and lighter, but I've used both with Silver shifters and they were great..I suspect you have a problem elsewhere causing unsmooth shifting. Or it's a worn out Claris. 

I don't remember if I shifted a triple with CX70 so can't help there, but its narrowness might be an issue with an 8-speed chain. It means lots of trimming to keep those cage plates away from the chain, a thing I'm very OCD about and don't enjoy at all. If you're like me, stick with 8-speed front derailers! 

Joe Bernard

[Joe Bernard]

Shoot, I forgot a detail. I believe the CX70 is a 10-speed derailer, hence the narrowness. 

[Ed Carolipio]

Hi Doug, is your Claris triple specific? If it's not, that may account for the rough shifts. Triple FDs have an inner plate that is taller than the outer one. The CX70 is spec'ced for a double crank (46T top gear, 16T outer-to-inner difference) may have problems with the triple as well.

I've used a Claris double with a VO 46/30 and a Sugino 42/26 in friction, and it worked well for both. Currently on my MIT Hillsen I'm running a Silver 46-34-24 with a Deore FD-M591 (the 3x9 version), a 9-speed rear, and Silver1 shifter. The M591 is matched almost perfectly with that crankset and gearing: 48T top gear, 12T outer-to-mid difference, 22T outer-to-inner difference. Front shifts are like butter with this setup.

(BTW the crank is a Silver low-low double with a Sugino 46T chainring replacing the guard. I didn't want to wait for a Silver triple...)

The Claris triple (FD-R2030) will work but is less ideal: 50T top gear, 11T outer-to-mid difference,  20T outer-to-inner difference. Better for something like a 48-38-28 crank but will likely be made to work with your 46-36-24.

Good luck,

Ed C.

On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 8:44:40 PM UTC-7 Doug Williams wrote:

[Doug Williams]

Jan at Rene Herse likes the CX70 for both compact doubles and triples where the big ring is around 46 or 44 teeth. I have no interest in STI/Ergopower, however. I sticking with my Riv friction-only Silver bar end shifters. But here is Jan's rant:
https://www.renehersecycles.com/trouble-with-sti-triples/

Since I do only friction shifting I was hoping it would work well for me regardless of whether I went with a Rene Herse 42-26 or a Riv Silver 44-34-24 triple. Because I'm still waffling there. :-)  I just know that I'm dumping my old Sugino triple when the current chain rings wear out. I'm told that the Silver Triple will be available in 6 months. The Rene Herse double 42-26 is available now. So either could work. Just wondering if the CX70 would be a good derailer for either. My Claris is a triple, judging by the fact that it has the stepped channel that Jan goes on about.

Doug

[Garth]

My experience with double FD's is that they are incredibly adaptable with capacities far beyond the manufacturers self-imposed specs and guidelines. The apparent raves about the CX70 I take with a grain of salt as there are endless other double FD's that work just as well. I'm currently using a Tiagra 4400 9-speed double FD with 44/36/24 rings (9-sp chain, Andel triple crank) and it shifts as well as I could ask for. That's even using a 44t ring intended for small/middle use mounted backwards, as the big ring. The specs of the FD say it's 2(larger) road rings, the specs say it only has so much capacity between the rings. How about what the specs don't say, or can't say ? What specs don't/can't mention is the infinitude of settings and usefulness. What they cannot express is the unlimited/inherent creativity that lies within. 

By the way, about comparing wide/low doubles and triple cranks..... 3 rings offers the ability to run either large ring with the cassette. Even if some gears appear to overlap per ring that's okay as that offers the ability to use different cogs in the back rather the same cog all the time with a single ring alone. It also offers larger up/down shifts just by changing rings rather than by just cog shifts. So while a wide/low crank sounds okay in talking about it, I won't be riding one anytime soon with the hilly terrain I live in where I use 36,44,46 rings and cogs from 14 to 32 teeth daily. 

Also, the 152mm Andel triple crank I run is a black powdercoat finish. Andel makes it in silver also , but I've grown to like the hearty finish. It's very scratch resistant and easy to clean if need be. It's also notably stiffer/straighter than a Sugino XD type crank of which I've used 5 of. The XD is another of those online rider "favorites" that in my experiences is the least favorite of all. The hidden/backwards bolt only adds to it's demerits. Andel is a fine crank manufacturer, I wish their extensive crank selection was more easily accessible in the US market. The Riv Silver crank is made by Andel, btw. 

I've grown to like some black finished parts. At this point anything but the frame I'm okay with in given circumstances. 

[Doug Williams]

Thanks for the comments everybody. Garth, I agree that the compact double sounds good on paper and saves a few ounces, but like you, I'm still reluctant to give up my triple in the hills where I ride. I still wonder if the 26 will be as useful as the 24. I don't use my 24 with the 32 in back often, but when I need it...I need it. I even run a 11-34 in the back sometimes. Again, nice when you need it.

Nice to know that Andel makes the Silver triple. Of course I could also consider the Rene Herse triple, but one has to wonder if it is going to be that many $$$ better than the Silver triple. How much lighter and faster can it really be? Both the Herse double and triple are gorgeous, of course.

Doug

[RichS]

Hello Doug,

Your post is very timely since I've been going through the exact same derailer swapping dance in the past week.

First, some history. At one point I ran a CX-70 der on my Sam with a friction shifted 8 speed 11-32 cassette and 43/34 double front rings. As Joe points out frequent trimming in the front ring was required. Solution: ditch the "light" CX-70 in favor of a "heavy" Claris double. Boom, instant gratification - no trimming, Sam and I are happy.

Also, I can't say the CX-70 felt any better during shifts than the Claris does.

FWIW I ran a Claris triple on a friction 8 speed Homer with 46-34-26 rings and never had any problems. Very nice combination.

Present situation: on another frame I tried resurrecting the CX-70 with a 9 speed cassette, 46-34 rings and Silver 1 down tube shifters, thinking the slightly narrower chain might work. No go, still had to trim in the big ring despite patient adjusting of the limit screws. Also, the D-rings (bees waxed threads) on the shifters were as tight as I could get them but no success. It has crossed my mind that the front shifters might be slipping just enough to be a pain.

Today, I'm changing over to the proven Sam-Claris 8 speed double setup but with a 46 tooth big ring. Oh, and the cranks are the much maligned Sugino XD.

Garth, thanks for the reference to Andel. Forgot all about them!

Good luck to both of us Doug!

Best,

Rich in ATL 

[Garth]

Doug, The most direct thing I can say is trust yourself and those initial ideas of what works for you. A 24t ring is always gonna be 24t and a 26t a 26t, they'll never be the same !  The Riv silver crank will be here when you need it. A more expensive crank is just more expensive and won't make any difference in your rides. The "lighter = faster" thing just doesn't hold up in my experience as such terms are relatives, comparisons of comparisons with other comparisons. Is your head spinning from the round and round like a circle of no escape ?  Such are comparisons ! 

Another versatile crank that comes to mind is Davinci . It's offered in a host of changeable spiders, with or w/o rings. https://www.davincitandems.com/components/#cranks

My own bias here : I like common bolt pattern cranks, where I can use any brand of rings.

A "good ride" is forgetting all about the story of how the present came to be and where it's going, to not think about anything at all. Life literally does "take care of It-Self".

Rich ... cranks galore from Andel !!! http://www.andel.com.tw/category.php

For Doug and Rich, which Claris FD model are you referring to ?

[R Shannon]

Hi Garth,

The model number for the Claris double is FD-2400.

Thanks for the link to Andel cranks. +1 on the classic design and common bolt pattern.

I'm in your camp when it comes to the spirit of a "good ride":-)

Best,

Rich in ATL

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Garth, for alerting us to these makers. If I've heard of them I'd forgotten about them.

Question to all: Who has used these, and what do you think of them compared to RH, IRD, Silver, VO, and other "classic" square taper models? I think in particular of singles and wide range doubles.

I also think of weight, looks, durability (in your experience), ring choice, adaptability to frames with different tire widths, and ease of finding rings and hardware; that is, among other things, BCD and supplier availability.

Is the RH crank worth double the price of the DaVinci? (I've heard at least a couple of owners complaining about RH cranks, so it's not as if they were absolutely trouble free.)

Patrick Moore, who does in fact have an ancient stash of ancient Pro 5 Vis cranks and rings.

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:52 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Another versatile crank that comes to mind is Davinci . It's offered in a host of changeable spiders, with or w/o rings. https://www.davincitandems.com/components/#cranks

 

... Rich ... cranks galore from Andel !!! http://www.andel.com.tw/category.php

[Patrick Moore]

And yes, I know I am grossly violating Garth's advice to use and like what I have. But I still want to know.

Patrick Moore, already with TA, Logic, and WI cranks on his bikes in: ABQ, NM.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum