Headset adjustment

[Richard Rose]

Greetings folks. I would appreciate any input regarding this. Since new I have had some movement in my headset / stem that concerns me, possibly unnecessarily so? Please review the attached video link and tell me what you see. I felt the headset was a bit loose so tightened it a bit. This made no difference. The minimum insertion line for the Faceplater stem is a full two centimeters below the headset lock nut. So, the question seems to be is this stem quill movement excessive &  if so how to eliminate it. I do mind the inherent flex. It no doubt contributes to the comfort of the bike? I just want to be certain it is safe and causing no harm.

I appreciate your help.

Richard

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZXVZBrQEVzamDV1H6

[Ted W]

Couple of thoughts right off:

1. if you pull the stem out to the minimum insertion line and re-tighten it, does it still move? Sometimes, if you've inserted the stem too far, you may encounter this issue. It can be mitigated by getting a shorter stem or cutting the current one down a bit (advanced mode).

2. What's the inner diameter of the steerer and what's the outer diameter of the stem? There are different threaded headset standards. I've provided a summary below. It's possible you've wound up with a mistmatch:

Stem “neck” outer diameter – measurement units: mm (inches)	Standard name
21.15 (13/16″)	Old American and BMX standard
22	Old French standard
22.2 (7/8″)	Standard for most threaded forks with an outer diameter of 25.4 mm (1″)
25.4 (1″)	Standard for most threaded forks with an outer diameter of 28.6 mm (1 1/8″) – not very common

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Garth]

It appears the diameter of the stem is out of spec as all I see of movement in the video is the stem itself wiggling inside the steering tube. Do measure the diameters of the outer stem and inside the steerer, and in multiple places around the circles. Something is out of spec as that's a whole lotta wiggle, not good. Is that the Nitto or the JIm Faceplater ?  If you don't have a caliper for measuring do you at least have a another stem to insert ? If not, contact Riv. Frankly that ought to have been the first place to go.

[aeroperf]

I was going to suggest checking for a loose headset, but It is obviously the stem, and Garth is right on.

[Richard Rose]

Regarding item #1, stem measures 22.2 & of course it is a 1” steer tube. Seemed unliked Riv would sell a stem for one of their bikes that was the wrong size, but worth checking for sure.

Regarding item #2, I did remove & replace stem & it did not change. 

I remember reading that the minimum insertion point should be at or below the top of the head tube, not the top of the locking nut. Mine is 2cm below the top of the lock nut, so pretty close to the top of the head tube. Will told me the minimum insertion line could be at the top of the lock nut. I could drop it a few cm to see if the movement gets better, but then it would be too low for my comfort.

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On Sep 6, 2023, at 3:28 PM, Ted W <ted.l...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Lindsay]

Since you've measured your stem at 22.2mm and since you perceive the same wiggle with two stems, that rules out an undersized stem.  That gives you two choices:  

-live with it.  It's one of the minor shortcomings of quill stem bikes, made more noticeable with a really tall stem and presumably wide bars.  
-OR-

-pursue the notion that your steer tube inside diameter is larger than it ought to be.  

If you wanted to pursue the notion that your fork is "out of spec", try inserting one of your test-stems into another 1" fork steer tube and convince yourself that it does not wiggle.  Then you will have proven there is an objective shortcoming on your fork.  Talk that over with Rivendell and try to make it right.  

In general, every quill stem, when slid into the steer tube has a small amount of 'wiggle'.  That small amount of wiggle is reduced but not eliminated by tightening the bolt that engages the wedge.  That wedge-spot is down at some depth, and the stem can still pivot around that point a tiny bit.  That is the way it is, to some extent.  In the case of a steer tube whose ID is larger, that wiggle will be larger.  I don't know if Rivendell has a spec that they guarantee, nor do I know if there's some universally accepted tolerance there.  My instinct is that the steer tube ID has to be larger than 22.2mm, and I'd say it probably also has to be larger than 22.225mm (which is the real value of 7/8"). To me, 22.3mm seems reasonable.  To me, 22.5mm would seem unreasonable.  Where to draw the line...22.4mm?  I don't know.  

For the sake of science I just tried to wiggle the stem on two of my bikes that have a 1" quill stem.  On neither do I consider it a problem.  On one bike (Bridgestone RB-1), I could see the gap around the stem at the locknut open and close ever so slightly.  On the other I saw no change.  What I see in your video seems like "more wiggle" than either of my test bikes.  Take that for what it's worth.  Maybe have a mechanic you trust give it a look.  Tell them "I think this is bad, what do you think?  If they say "yeah I agree it's bad" then pursue something. If they say "no this looks normal" then maybe live with it.  

At any rate, if the wiggle makes you unhappy, talk with Riv and find a way to be happy.  I'm sure they'll work with you to get you there. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Richard Rose]

Hi Garth. It is a Nitto FacePlater stem & consistently measures 22.2. I’ve not yet measured the inside diameter of the head tube.

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On Sep 6, 2023, at 3:41 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

It appears the diameter of the stem is out of spec as all I see of movement in the video is the stem itself wiggling inside the steering tube. Do measure the diameters of the outer stem and inside the steerer, and in multiple places around the circles. Something is out of spec as that's a whole lotta wiggle, not good. Is that the Nitto or the JIm Faceplater ?  If you don't have a caliper for measuring do you at least have a another stem to insert ? If not, contact Riv. Frankly that ought to have been the first place to go.

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[Garth]

Okay, I see what's happening :)  Richard, the min insertion for a stem is always marked on the stem, and it's to the top of the lock nut. The min insertion line on my stems on hand range from 6.5cm for a relatively short Nitto quill adapter to 7.5cm for taller Genetic brand one. My tall Nitto Faceplatter stem is about 7cm.

2 cm below the lock nut is quite insufficient, as in "Danger Danger Will Robinson !" That "may" explain the wiggle, not being in far enough. When it's in to at least the min insertion line there should not be any wiggle at all, as in zero. Stems shouldn't move when tightened, like seatposts.

If your stem isn't tall enough, tell me exactly which one you have. I have an unused Nitto HighRiser, the original ones Riv had made in 135mm extension @10 degree up and a 31.8 clamp that I'll see you if you need it. 31.8 to 25.4 shims are common.Those high risers with the long quill and positive rise are as tall as you're gonna get out of a one piece stem. If that isn't high enough then the bike is too small ! Buy hey, if you ride a 59 I'll sell you my unused original orange Susie if you like as it has a much taller stack than any other RIv model. Too tall for me, I'd need a negative 75d stem.... hah hah .

If the stem still wiggles when inserted to proper depth then the steering tube is out of spec. If that's the case, Riv will help you out ! 

FWIW, I bought a VO Rando frame that arrived yesterday and today got an email stating the rear recessed brake holes were made too small. So yeah, "stuff happens" even with "professionals".

[Ted W]

You know, Bill… after reading your comment here I had to go take a look at my Appaloosa and wouldn’t you know it, you’re right! There’s some play in it! It’s not as pronounced as the video Richard shared but it’s there to be sure! I’d never noticed it before. Perhaps the others are in correct and what is needed here is a taller stem to allow for more to be inserted in the steerer.

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[Richard Rose]

Garth, thanks but not certain I understand. You say (I think) minimum insertion is “always to top of lock nut”. My minimum insertion mark is 2cm below top of lock nut. The quill goes quite a bit deeper to well below top of steer tube. I will remove to get an accurate measurement but it is quite long. If I read your response correctly you are thinking the entire stem is only 2cm below the top of the lock nut, which of course would be very bad.

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On Sep 6, 2023, at 7:36 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Rose]

This pic shows how far into the head tube my stem currently extends. The minimum insertion line is 2 cm below the lock nut. FWIW, I do not notice any movement riding the bike. I only notice it straddling the bike, feet on the ground & putting my full weight into the grip area of my Bosco bars.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JTDqwkr1dqxW6TJd6

[Richard Rose]

Also & regarding Garth’s comments regarding the possibility of this Clem L being too small for me; Mine is a 52 & “should” be correct for me according to Riv sizing suggestions. I have put nearly 6,000 miles on this bike and dearly love it. But, I think I’d have been very comfortable going one size up. That would have put me on a 700c bike instead of this 27.5, and likely would have required a shorter stem inserted a bit deeper into the head tube. Proof of concept I suppose is that I am quite comfortable on my size large Gus. Not really more comfortable than on the Clem - but equally comfortable. The joy of always being in between sizes! Needless to say there is zero flex up front on the Gus being 1-1/8” threadless. Both bikes are a joy to ride.

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On Sep 6, 2023, at 7:36 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Joe Bernard]

Checked my Face Plater in my custom, it shows the same gap as in your video with the same movement..I never knew! I think it's a tall quill stem being yanked by wide bars (Boscos in my case) and these are the results. I'm going to keep riding it as is. 

[Richard Rose]

I think you are correct - after all this! I now think the movement is just the flex of the exposed quill allowed by the hole of the locknut being just a bit larger than it could/should be.

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On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:11 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Checked my Face Plater in my custom, it shows the same gap as in your video with the same movement..I never knew! I think it's a tall quill stem being yanked by wide bars (Boscos in my case) and these are the results. I'm going to keep riding it as is. 

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[Bill Lindsay]

Garth said: "there should not be any wiggle at all, as in zero. Stems shouldn't move when tightened, like seatposts."

This is just not the case.  Quill stems are not like seat posts*.  Threadless stems are more like seat posts.  With quill stems the stem HAS to be undersized so you can get it inserted in the first place.  The "clamping" interface is sunk down deep, so there's still slop up top.  With seat posts and threadless stems the clamping interface is up top.  

A small amount of wiggle is normal.  The less there is, the better, to be sure.  

*There was a small historical anomaly where seat posts are like quill stems: Briefly the seat post maker SR made a seat post briefly that clamped with a wedge like a quill stem.  It was OEM on some bikes in the 1980s.  Google "Schwinn 564" and click "Images" and you'll see one of those models.  That Allen bolt in the side of the seat post actuated the wedge.  It was terrible.  The seat post creaked because of the wiggle.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Richard Rose]

Garth, sent you a pm.

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On Sep 6, 2023, at 7:36 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



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