Electric Bikes and Organized Rides

[Eric Norris]

A friend and I did the Seattle to Portland ride this past weekend (205 miles in either one or two days), and we were both surprised to see a number of riders on electric bikes. 

I haven’t done many large cycling events since the rise in popularity of electric bikes. When I did large-scale rides like STP pre-COVID, everybody would have been on a regular, human-powered bike. So seeing powered bikes on a “cycling” event struck us as a little strange. 

What is everyone’s experience with this? I’ll admit I am a little skeptical about combining electric- and human-powered bikes in the same event, but that’s probably a reflection of my cycling history. The events I usually ride, which are mostly RUSA-sanctioned randonneuring, would definitely not allow any kind of powered bike.

What do YOU think? Should electric bikes be allowed on events like RAGBRAI, STP, centuries, etc.? What limits would you impose, if any? Or should they have their own events?

Interested to hear what the group thinks.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

[Karl Gee]

I like that people are coming out to events and enjoying themselves and sharing the benefits of being outdoors. There are groups that I am fast aging into, and electric bikes is absolutely one of them. The confidence that I can get home after a long ride, or make it up a decent grade without passing out is what an e-bike affords me (one day, don't own one yet). More bikes on the roads the better, kids on e-scooters at 25mph not so much. 

[David Ross]

I used to be fairly opposed to them until I figured out that almost everyone I know who rides them is just using them to be able to do things that they otherwise couldn’t do. I’m 51 now and I can see a future in which I can extend my cycling by another decade with the help of an e bike. I’m considering buying one for my fiancé because she’s about 2/3 as fast as I am and can cover around 2/3 or so of the distances I like to ride. Both of us think it would be really cool if she could do my rides at my pace because she really does enjoy getting out there. 

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[rlti...@gmail.com]

I own one. I have a Tern e-Cargo bike that allows me to ride more. I don’t have free time for recreational riding currently so errands are the only way I get to ride. I do as many errands as I can on “normal” bikes but the Tern lets me get more miles in since it allows me to ride when I would otherwise need to take the car. My e-bike has no throttle. It is pedal assist only.

That said, I don’t like e-bikes on the trails and that is getting more and more common around here. I think I’d be ok with pedal assist e-bikes on organized rides.  They would basically allow people to participate who would otherwise need to sit it out. I’d prefer if they were limited to pedal assist only models and had assist cutoffs at 20 mph or so. Allowing E-bikes with throttles on an organized ride with inexperienced cyclists is likely a bad idea.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 17, 2024, at 4:53 PM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

A friend and I did the Seattle to Portland ride this past weekend (205 miles in either one or two days), and we were both surprised to see a number of riders on electric bikes. 

[Hoch in ut]

I know some get offended at the sight of one. At the end of the day, they’re two wheeled machines that get ridden by folks who like to ride. I say, hooray for them. Let them come and enjoy being outside with other people. Unless you’re in an elite, pro-level racing event, WHO CARES? . It’s better than having them sit at home or worse, be out of the road in a car. 

[aeroperf]

Lots of parts to this question.

I’m 75 and ride a Sam.  My wife is 72 and rides a Platypus.  We ride along on the Silver Comet at about 11 mph.
We can ride the trail together, but if we want to ride in any kind of group we would be quickly left behind.
We tried e-bikes on an overseas tour, and it was a revelation.  Suddenly we’re able to bang along at 14-15 mph, and the hills became no problem.

So…what Karl Gee and David Ross said.  With E-bikes we could join in some of these group rides that would be impossible otherwise.
But I would think it would be unfair to allow them on any ride that was timed, unless they were in their own class.

Also, I make a distinction between E-bikes (pedal assist) and E-motorcycles (throttled).  You know the ones - 4 inch tires, 25 mph.
There are arguments both ways on those, but in my opinion they should stick to the roads or the beach.

For RAGBRAI, centuries, etc., E-bikes have their own problems, mostly weight and limited range.  Maybe they’re getting a lot better, but to do a century 5 years ago you would need two batteries.  

We shall see.  Next year this time I should have my Sam electrified.  I just finished electrifying my Soma Saga touring bike, and will spend this year working out the kinks with it before risking mucking up the Sam.  But I’ll try some group rides to see if it plays well with others.
Photos - Saga before and after electrification.  Motor replaces bottom bracket, battery screws to rack.  If anyone has done this to a Rivendell, I’d love to hear about it.

[Karl Gee]

Very cool conversion. I read about the extra strain on the chain in this kind of configuration, I would love to hear more about it for real riding conditions. What kit did you opt for? 

My choice is to sell off some of my other non Riv bikes and afford a Priority E-bike with a mid drive motor, a carbon gates belt, and an internal set of gears as a start. Still affordable vs the $10,000+ touring e bikes on the market these days.

 

regards

Karl  

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[aeroperf]

Karl—

I went with the Tongsheng TSDZ2. 500W.
https://www.amazon.com/Tongsheng-Concversion-Central-Bracket-Bicycle/dp/B0CL484F1X/
I’ve only had it running for two weeks, so there’s a lot to learn.
This whole thing is an experiment.  My end goal is specifically to electrify the Sam, not just have an electric bike.

But I don’t want to hijack this thread into a conversion thread, because until I put it on my Sam there isn’t any Rivendell content.

So feel free to contact me offline - I’d love to learn about other e-conversions.

[Chris Halasz]

I vote no. 

Make a separate event for unlicensed motored two wheeled vehicles, or a separate timed start. 

I foresee many inexperienced and well-intended folks on motorized bikes, at speeds unaccustomed to them, with aging balance and reflexes, causing accidents among the experienced cyclists. 

I welcome any physically challenged experienced cyclist to participate on a pedal-assisted bike, experience verified with a privately paid nationally certified third-party licensed test. They can afford the $2000-$15000 bike, they can afford a $100-$200 test. 

On a typical ride I have near collisions with adults on e-bikes, cutting me off on the inside of either direction corner, zooming around me on either side while proceeding straight (at their tremendous risk of being doored at high speed), and lately, going the wrong direction altogether, drifting from left to right as they approach. 

I do ride regularly with friends on pedal-assist bikes, and it is great to have them along the ride. They share my concerns with the inexperienced. 

- Chris 

[Jon Dukeman]

Karl

I bought a similar mid drive kit and mounted it on a used Cheviot.

I have the kit but sold the frame and fork.

My concern was the skinny fork and the weight of the e bike kit motor bottom bracket and battery on the down tube.  It's probably was okay but

I eventually mounted it on a Surly Ogre.

Surly uses a beefy fork and bottom bracket and down tube.

Jon

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[George Schick]

Do a Web search using the keys "e-bike accidents" and see what you get.  While they may be fine on the roads and streets (sort of) they are a hazard on trails and paths - especially the otherwise known as "moped" Class 3 types.  If you are aging and have difficulty pedaling at any cadence are you also capable of controlling an e-bike, pedal assist or other, on paths and trails while passing walkers, runners, and others who are pedaling bikes? I've personally had some bad experiences with people riding these contraptions on trails and I'm wondering how long it will be before the number of torts increase to the point where they become banned on trails and paths.  OBTW, my house backs up to a city park and just this afternoon I witnessed a kid riding a full blown dirt bike - not an e-bike, not an MTB - an off road motorcycle through the park up and down embankments.  I wonder whether he got the idea that he could do that because of the e-bikes on the paths out there...

[R. Alexis]

Last year on day one of RAGBRAI I saw several e-bike riders. They were fine and I didn't notice them doing anything crazy or our of line. It would suck if you were the only one in a group ride without one. Met a group that was doing a ride from somewhere in Iowa to someplace in Minnesota. Probably about 4-6 of them. Only one not on an e-bike was one of the gals on a Trek Madone or some such. She was not too keen on being the only one. 

As an aside, met Jake, a mechanic for Priority Bicycles today who is in the area to start RAGBRAI with the Priority Bicycles team. Stated he is riding a prototype bike with Pinion gear box bike with electric shifting. Just looked up the company. Looks interesting. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

[Joe Bernard]

I support the Class 1 pedalecs with 20mph top speed on centuries. A century isn't really a group ride, I've done many by myself and was passing small groups and being passed by other small groups all day so, an ebike going by me wouldn't seem unusual. Of course range is the limiter here, most ebikes would be relegated to the 40 mile or shorter route unless the rider was very good about shutting off power during the event. 

Joe Bernard 

Lake County CA 

On Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 4:53:33 PM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:

[aeroperf]

Which brings up other good points about E-bikes.

We’re in the “Look out, Martha!  He’ll run down the kids and scare the horses” phase of E-bikes now, like the safety bike was in 1895.

There are currently three “classes” of E-bike in the US, and at least 4 in the EU.
And that’s aside from people like me who build and program their own.  Honest, officer, it’s a Class 1 (unless I throw this little switch next to the thumb shifter).
And because we have a lot more government now than in 1895, every state has the opportunity to apply their own regulations.

Meanwhile the lycra louts with their carbon road bikes are blowing by me at 25 mph without so much as an “On your left”.
Do we let them on STP?  BRAG? But limit E-bikes to 20 mph?

So all that has to be worked out for any sanctioned ride, along with who regulates and who enforces.
This is a good time to have this discussion.  The e-fun is just beginning.

[peec...@yahoo.com]

I agree with George Schick on this one since I see increasing numbers of e bikes on the trails generally ridden by people who wouldn't be out there, riding much faster than I can ride, coming up fast behind me without any sort of announcement and startling me.  I don't like e bikes for that reason but see the appeal.  I actually wish every e bike c

could be licensed and the riders required to take some basic education re trail etiquette and safety.

[Bernard Duhon]

One huge difference is a “lycra lout” as you ,  called them,  going 25 mph may have bad manners but he has been riding a while and probably a pretty good bike handler.

 

However a newbie going even 15 miles an hour his  electric bike is a danger to everyone on the road.  Including himself. When we were starting out on a human powered bike we were mostly a danger to yourself.  (and took a while before you were cruising at 12 miles an hour)

 

We have been a lifetime of acquiring Cycling skills. I have taught the effective cycling course in the past and even seasoned cyclist benefit from these type of courses.

 

You cannot get a driver's license without passing a drivers test and almost everyone has taken a driver's Ed course.

 

Some point in the power/speed scale education courses should be encouraged./promoted by the sellers. 

 

And 20 mph on ebike is too fast for an unskilled novice and that is the speed limit on a lot of trails.

 

That having been said, there are a lot of bicycles you shouldn't put a novice cyclist on. I know several people who started out riding on a tri, time trial and crisp handling race bike and injured themselves. They had no business starting off on a bike like that and shame on the bike industry for putting them on that kind of bike.

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[Patrick Moore]

A local bike industry representative recently proposed a bill to the City of ABQ Council for blanket legal permission for all types of e-bikes along with a 20 mph speed limit, the limit to be moral and legal, not technological. My first reaction was, "Yeah, sure, and you will enforce this exactly how?" Me, I think that there should be official obstacles for use on recreational trails and bike lanes any motorized vehicle capable of more than 20 mph without pedaling but I don't know what those should be or how to impose them.

Riding briskly along a bike path a couple of months ago I was passed at probably 25 mph (I was going at least 15 and was passed at a large speed difference) by a kid on a OneWheel or somesuch with no warning or vehicle sound besides very muted tire buzz; it was a good thing I wasn't trying to turn left. I have no problem with e-assist, but neophytes going faster than their bike path traffic skills (let along road skils) warrant does worry me.

The same thing happened a few months earlier yet: a kid on an e-bike passed me on a bike path at a good differential without sound or warning, his little terrier running unleashed behind him. (It was a fast terrier.) (The kid would let the dog catch up, accelerate so that the dog would chase him, the stop and repeat. All on the left side of the path.

Worst yet: 18 or 24 months ago maintaining a stout 18 or so on my Riv gofast on a pave bike path I was passed with no warning and very little noise by a kid on an electric motorcycle who passed me, I swear, and I don't think my imagination is fooling me, going at least 40 if not more; he whizzed by and disappeared up the trail and around a distant corner before I could collect my wits to yell an insult. But thank God that was a 1X even, so far at least.

OTOH, by far most of the now quite numerous e-bikes I see on area bike paths are putting along harmlessly at 12 or 15 mph and even an old duffer like me can pass them handily.

[John Dewey]

And how many of those will end in landfill as they are basically junk day one. I get e-assist for old and infirm but all the rest are a plague. 

On big rides, eg RAGBRAI, my .02 cents is to have them start an hour earlier…tho RAGBRAI is such a free for-all. I hate the idea of e-bikes on these sorts of events other than assist that look like any ‘normal’ pedal-driven bike. 

And shame on bike shops for selling those abominations. Shame shame shame. 

Jock

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[Patrick Moore]

I can't agree entirely with John, though I certainly sympathize. My experience with e-bikes is certainly less than that of many other list members, but I've seen far too many polite, slow, and apparently safe riders of e-bikes on our local paths to think that they all should be banned from such paths. 

Of course, the question and problem is, how do you let the careful riders ride e-bikes at sedate speeds while blocking the fools and jerks. I dunno. But I doubt a "blanket 20 mph limit for ABQ bike paths" is going to cut the mustard.

I am less sympathetic but still sympathetic to bike shop owners who push e-bikes. Sure, it's a solid revenue stream from a new and larger market, but perhaps some of the burden of weeding out jerks should start with them? That is, perhaps, by stocking only pedal-assist e-bikes that can't be switched to full-motorcycle mode with a switch, and offering at least clear literature if not 15 minute training explaining proper bike path behavior? 

Again, I dunno! But that never stops me from pontificating.

Also, per Steve Palincsar and his very high end e-road-bike, for instance, not all e-bikes are landfill fodder by any means.

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[John Dewey]

Patrick, I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the kind of e-bike Steve P rides. 

My beef is primarily with those nameless flat black fat-tire electric motorcycles driven mostly by children. 

And if we’re opening up big organized rides, then I’m for requiring the SP kind of pedal-assist always ride at the front and pull the rest of us along. Like Mathieu van der Poel. 

Jock

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[Patrick Moore]

We agree wholly on the e-bike motorcycles!

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[Peter Adler]

Turn all the e-bike riders into derny/pace riders for cyclists as in oldie track racing, whether they want to or not; an interesting notion!

Peter “and make them wear costumes like rodeo clowns, too” Adler

Berkeley, California

[Steven Seelig]

Just addressing the bike shop comment upstream.  It is not the bike shops that are selling the crappy Rad Power Bikes and worse.  Those are direct to consumer bikes that, eventually, the LBS will have to help service.  

Here in Wash, DC, not one bike shop carries bikes they will not be willing to service and none sell Class 3 bikes whatsoever.  So if those throttled monsters annoy someone, or worse, endanger their lives, blame the unregulated nature of the industry.

Also, in a big city, Ebikes that help transport kids and groceries that get people out of their cars are, even with Rad Power Bikes, far superior than a wankpanzer pickup truck on my city streets.

Steve Seelig

[ascpgh]

I'm not bothered by the e-bike/e-moto/e-mobility riders passing me, I'm afraid of the novice or absent riding skill operators on the door-delivered, 80# nameless Chinese landfill mass to be. No helmets, no lights, no bells and no sense that any such would be appropriate. These are precise examples of why communities even bother to provide separate ways for pedestrians and cyclists. Given the speed differentials and weight, should they intersect, outcomes will be predictably worse for the human powered users on these limited use paths. 

I am bothered by those lacking the acumen or insight to be on limited public ways, using devices that could cause harm to others even if briefly legitimized by the environmental "good" unlikely reached by the Temu specials before becoming toxic waste and landfill mass. 

In my urban setting there was a springtime rite similar to an insect hatch of non-licensable mobility devices appearing in the streets following tax returns. The Pep Boys  "occupant"-addressed third class circulars were the Audubon Guide to them. Like many larval hatches followed by fly fishers, this hatch didn't last long. Pep Boys went under, thankfully, and is resurfacing as a more limited tire and service business. 

I just returned from a gathering of my wife's family near Cleveland and visited cuyahoga Valley National Park with her father and brother. Many of the interesting sites intersect with the bike trail running along the Cuyahoga River. In those concentrations the e-moto (no pedaling observed) operators were consistently huge jerks as they tried to ply through crowds at speed and verbally (often vulgarly) alert unsuspecting pedestrians of their rapid onset. 

I see a moped end to all of this. There is no time to reach a legislative inclusion as "legal occupant of the roadway" for many of the e-mobility oddities for road use but as the NPS and BLM banned MTBs in the '80s, I can see them drop the wet blanket for easier enforcement rather than parsing the differentiating nuances before acting.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

[Nick Payne]

Our biggest problem here on footpaths and bikepaths isn't ebikes, it's electric scooters. The ones for public hire *are* speed limited - I think to 25kph - but there are lots of people on private ones they've bought which don't appear to be speed limited, as I can be going along at around 30kph and get passed by one of these going probably 20kph faster.

A bit over 18 months ago we had a ringside seat to the stupidity of one of these scooter riders. We were out on a ride and just turning onto a four lane freeway in order to go the couple of hundred metres to the start of the parallel bikepath. We had a green light, and this scooter went absolutely hammering past through the red light heading towards the airport. A few kilometres further on, on the bikepath that parallels the road, we came across the aftermath. The guy was lying on the ground with a fair sized gash in his leg, his crashed scooter nearby, and a bunch of cops were standing around with none looking sympathetic and a few clearly amused. There were three cop cars parked on the shoulder of the road and a couple of police motorbikes blocking the bikepath.

https://canberradaily.com.au/scooter-rider-takes-drugs-and-goes-four-times-the-speed-limit/

The thing he was riding appeared to be one of these: https://fluidfreeride.com/products/kaabo-wolf-king-gt.

And this was the aftermath a few months later: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-04/canberra-man-caught-speeding-on-e-scooter-jailed/102299854 (includes video from the police motorbike of the pursuit and its conclusion).

Nick Payne
Canberra

[Corwin Zechar]

Hi Eric -

I don't have a beef with people that need an assist. My beef is with people that buy an electric "bike", which they have no intention of pedaling. Many of these "bikes" are really motorcycles with pedals attached in an ergonomically impossible place - just so they can be called bicycles. They just run the throttle wide open. It's clearly just an excuse to take over bike paths via motorized (albeit with an electric motor) vehicles. I am a member of Grizzly Peak Cyclists. Electric bikes are welcome on most rides, including the Grizzly Peak Century. There is even a special category on our monthly time-trial ride of the Three Bears. Electrics are accorded their own special category.

But, like Jock, I really hate people riding electric bikes at terrific speeds. So much so, that if I see an electric on a group ride I have joined, I abort the ride. I really do get the need for an assist. I have captained my tandem and the Cunningham tandem all over the East Bay and Marin. I have ridden Mt Tam, Sausalito, The Golden Gate, San Francisco, Oakland, Richmond, Berkeley and many other areas with Charlie Cunningham and my disabled wife. Both my wife and Charlie are disabled.

Electrics are such a turn-off for me, that I would rather ride alone, than be constantly reminded of the dozens of near-misses I have had with reckless individuals on electric bikes.

Electric bikes are probably the second most contentious topic on this list next to helmets.

Regards,

Corwin

On Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 4:53:33 PM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:

[ascpgh]

"Electric bikes are probably the second most contentious topic on this list next to helmets." 

I wonder what chain lube they prefer? 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[ascpgh]

Fresh off the presses:

https://www.tmz.com/2024/07/29/angelina-jolie-brad-pitt-son-pax-jolie-pitt-injured-accident-bicycle-hits-car/

Celebrity accident. it was not an electric BMX bicycle, that is an electric (not street legal) enduro motorcycle.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Paul Donald]

Races have rules, that's where the "fun" or competition resides, pushing yourself agains the constraints, artificial as they may be. Group rides one would assume is more about a case of social negotiation. If someone is, or has been, a valued member of a group but becomes in need of assistance due to the vicissitudes of age and/or accident, then we ought to embrace them.  If what they do instead is cut against the spirit of the group then perhaps they ought to accept and respect the displeasure of the rest of the group. 

I electrified (sounds more exciting than it actually is) my cargo bike. I chose a front wheel hub motor wound for torque and not speed, but it would naturally go to 25mph. I re-set it to cut out at 20mph because I am an immigrant and rule follower. I use only throttle control, because the pedalec control is primitive and so I blip the throttle when I need it. I electrified a second bike, a Soma Saga (a good, solid, pleasant to ride but stiff bike - it is a touring bike after all) that I switch out the front fork and wheel for a Crust Clydsedale when I require it. This one I started with a mid drive. Hated it. Switched to rear hub drive, disliked it, but it's still in this form. Both iterations would do almost 30mph and doubled the weight of the bike. There is use value in the e-assist, but the bicycle-ness disappeared from the Soma in particular. Too fast, too heavy, too coarse. A very fast but very, very, harsh ride. But useful at times. Not something to be ridden on bike paths by the unthinking. And perhaps too fast for drivers to see and react to on the streets. Poor road surface and an absence of suspension (and a subsequent loss of control) also plays a part in how these things are not great idea unless used with a modicum of wisdom. 

If me and my e-assist bikes were banned from the bike paths around where I live then I'd be ok with that. 

Come the weekend along the LA river bike path all manner of dudeliness on plastic bikes are straining to complete PBs amongst the pets and children etc. Add the full range of e-bikes and e-scooters and I'm quite surprised I've not seen any accidents when I'm out there. I do see a lot of folks who are enjoying a bicycle pace - 10-16mph - on some of the more bicycle-like e-bikes. Perhaps the issue is speed and handling. As someone once told me about speed limits on roads -  they're limits, not targets.

I still prefer to ride the new (to me) Rosco Platypus. I'm 58 and fall into the category of men who kill themselves on motorcycles and e-bikes because they overestimate their facilities and underestimate how velocity, mass, and world conditions work. I tend to ride solo (or desperately try to keep up with my wife who is a much more bull-ish rider than I am), so keeping up with others is rare for me. I'd be reluctant to electrify a Rivendell, but ask me in 10 years (and if the kits are lighter) I might change my tune.

[Sarah Carlson]

I read this and I feel a couple ways about this... I ride in a club and the people who show up with an e-bike tend to be community minded and I don't think twice about it. But then I went out on a ride that covered lots of bike path territory and there were all these unhinged middle school aged kids tearing around on pretend motorcycles. I felt like grandpa as I felt myself grumbling, "Where ARE your parents! And why did they buy you, a child who is fearless about death this machine so you can terrorize recreational riders and small animals?" It does feel like at some point certain e-bikes cease to be bikes... and I hope that line starts to be explored and some parameters set for what is appropriate for certain riding environments. 

[John Dewey]

Eric, et. al. — we've finished the great RAGBRAI several times and have another in our future sometime soon. 

The beauty of those rides—in part for sure—is the sense of communal accomplishment we all feel and share during the ride and especially on that epic final day as we roll under the banner. 

Definitely not for the faint of heart...long, hot and often blustery windy days on the bike. For cyclists who—for one reason or another e.g. age or injury—need a push, I certainly understand and welcome the assist. 

There is a line in the sand however. IMHO bikes that don't require pedaling to keep moving down the road should be excluded. 

Jock

PS: Lots of folks in 70s / 80s—and beyond—pedaling along in really great shape. Always inspirational.

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[Heike Larson]

What an interesting and thoughtful discussion - so much more nuanced than on our local community lists.

I have a Gazelle Class 3 e-bike (which, by the way, is pedal-assist only; Class 2 are the ones with the throttle). I use it instead of a car as a commuter, as I live 5+ miles and 500' of climbing from town, and it takes me ~20 min to get to places like my gym 7 miles away with my e-bike, vs. 40 min with my Appa. So e-bikes (including Class 3) have a place and use.

Because of the distances and hills here in OC, my teenage son has an e-bike that is one of those motorcycle-like bikes with a throttle, to get around independently before he has his drivers license. I'm fine with him riding it--because he's been riding bikes with us since he was 2 years old, starting on a glide bike and moving on to mountain bikes. He knows the rules of the road and is capable of handling the power--something that cannot be said of many other teenagers who get these powerful machines as their first real bikes, never having learned how to ride with a traditional bike and never having been taught by riding along with parents how to ride safely. I do think that creates lots of risk and I wish that there was a licensing system like we had in Germany when I grew up there, where all kids who wanted to ride bikes to school had to take a class and pass a practical riding test to get a bike license and sticker. (My son thinks that would be horrible--just like he rolls his eyes when I make his friends put on lights if they are at my house with their bikes after dark.)

I'm in Germany right now, and I'm surprised to see that maybe half of all the bikes people use here to get around are e-bikes--and bikes are just a key way to get around. Interestingly, it's mostly older people here who use e-bikes for transport (instead of cars) to extend how long they can bike (and most of them don't wear helmets!), while the teenagers and younger kids ride regular bikes (no e-motorcycles in sight), usually with helmets on. It's such a different bike culture! 

[aeroperf]

So I now have 100 miles on my first e-bike conversion.
Like Paul, I converted a Soma Saga.  It is a solid touring bike, but I chose it because I had it, and it wasn’t my Sam Hillborne.  I don’t want to muck up the Sam until I work out the bugs.  I used a mid-drive torque demand setup - no throttle - with a 500 watt motor.
I’ve lived in Germany, where I wouldn’t have even considered an e-bike.  But I’m 75, and the last time I biked SE Italy I really needed one for the hills.

Here are a couple of resources.  A summary of types and classes:

https://www.honbike.com/blogs/news/e-bike-classifications-in-europe-and-us

Forgive me for including the European regs, but there’s a reason.

And here’s a chart of the California regulations. California tends to be most restrictive in environmental regs in the US.  Note that 20mph is supposed to be the limit for un-pedaled e-bikes.

Where we’re at in the US right now is: We have regulations, but nobody really enforces them.  The Silver Comet Trail I ride forbids e-bikes in one GA county (ALL e-bikes, not just the electric motorcycles), but they ride right by the park rangers, unchallenged.
So that’s one “problem”.

Another is that, while European regs specify a wattage limit, US regulations deal only with speed.  I chug along at 11.5mph on my Sam but can average 13 mph with the e-Saga.  Woo hoo!, and there’s no way I’ll hit a 20mph limit except downhill with a tailwind - in spite of having 500 watts.  So I'm Class 1.  In Europe there are 250 watt power limits, and 12.4 or 15.5 mph limits.  In some countries, like Heike says, a license is required even for those.

At some point in the next few years I would expect to see a lot of the US start to actually enforce e-bike regulations, and start to put wattage limits on what can be ridden and where, like the Europeans. There is still the enforcement problem.  What can they do in states where even motorcyclists are not required to have helmets?

But, to drag this back to the original question, I expect organized rides like RAGBRAI to eventually say “E-bike?  Cool.  250 watts.  Wear a helmet.  See you at the finish.” because it is NOT a speed-related thing, it is a social thing.  But they will be forced to draw some sort of line for liability reasons.

[John Dewey]

In CA, 20 mph limit so it’s written? That’s hilarious. 

Zero enforcement and the local arbiters haven’t a clue / could care less / caught up in far more serious affairs / way overworked / don’t know where or how to begin. 

Three grade school kids — one electric motorcycle bearing no resemblance to a ‘bicycle’ — flip flops flapping in the breeze — all hands occupied with Red Bull & iphones — overcrowded streets — no speed limits — and chaotic ‘bike lanes’. 

What, pray tell, could possibly go wrong? 🤪

JD

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