Thumbies vs BEs

[MichaelH]

I am considering a switch to thumbies on our tandem. I am finding the
BEs too slow on the tandem for the kind of rolling hills of Vt, which
require a lot of fast, double shifts to attack hills that often swing
from minus to plus 10%. The long cables, long rear derailleur cage,
and the need to move each separately from the shifter back to the bar
before I can reach for the other shifter causes too much delay and I
end up with too much pressure to drop the chain, or I shift early and
we end up spinning wildly, or even dropping the chain all together.

Does anyone have any experience going from one to the other on a road
bike, that they can share. I suppose the other option is to ride more
on the drops, where I can reach the shifters faster.

Michael
Westford, Vt

[Dave Craig]

I do have experience with this change-including changes made to the
same bikes and my stable of bikes with DT shifters, BE's, brifters
and thumbies.

There's no magic bullet. The issue is one of technique and
anticipation. On my touring bike, the closest approximation I have to
your situation with the tandem, my strategy for rolling hills is to
downshift just before or in the "valleys" then coast until I can spin
comfortably up the hill. On a loaded tourer, momentum is lost quickly.
I imagine the situation is the same on a tandem. At the top of the
hill, if I'm not simply going to coast down the other side, I upshift.
I seldom go into the big ring. This isn't racing technique, but it
works just fine for casual riding.

I've found my preference for touring to be barend shifters. My left
thumb got really sore using thumbies on my last, long tour.

[James Warren]

My favorite feature of BE's on long rides is the ability to shift while holding a water bottle.
You drink, you're swallowing, you want more, so you want to keep the bottle in your hand, but the grade changes, and you need to shift in between drinks while still holding the water bottle.

However, this is just a tangential comment, because I guess you could do the same with thumbshifters.

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[Thomas Lynn Skean]

My only experience switching shifters is in the context of switching
bars (roughly rotating through a set of four setups).

Moustache bars make it easier to ride on the "drops". I love the bar-
ends there. It's at least as fast for shifting as the thumbies on my
Albatross and Bullmoose bars.

My Noodles have thumbies near the stem on the top. I find them
available but not as easy to operate as any of my other set ups. The
angle of attack feels wrong. But I also haven't spent as much time
with my Noodles, so I've always been in transition to a certain
extent. Also, I have the Nitto F15/BarSack arrangement on my Noodles,
which does clutter up the area a little. No real problems. Just not as
easy or open as my other bars.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[islaysteve]

"Go to the Dark Side, Luke.": Brifters.

[Kevin M]

I use DA bar end friction shifters on our tandem without hardly any problems. Make sure that you have the bars high enough to be comfortable for long periods in the drops. How many teeth on your chainrings? We use (8sp) 53-42-30 x 11-32 and spend most of our time in the 42t. When preparing for hills i do a double shift to get in the correct front chainring while maintaining our cadence. We also try to crush it on the downhills to carry our momentum up the next hill; this takes off the pressure and gives me some time to get in the correct climbing gear. Also, try a rapid rise rear mech. I haven't trying brifters on our tandem, but if i did, I'd use campy ergo 10sp to shimano 8sp

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:20 -0700, MichaelH wrote:
> The long cables, long rear derailleur cage,
> and the need to move each separately from the shifter back to the bar
> before I can reach for the other shifter causes too much delay and I
> end up with too much pressure to drop the chain, or I shift early and
> we end up spinning wildly, or even dropping the chain all together.

I can shift left and right bar end shifters simultaneously, using both
hands, holding on to the bar ends themselves. Are you saying you can
only shift one hand at a time?

[Joe Bernard]

Yep, that's my question, too. The easiest double-shift I've ever done
is riding the hoods, then quickly dropping both hands to the bar-ends,
snapping off that shift, then back to the hoods.

[MichaelH]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Between this list and the
tandem list I have gotten a number of good suggestions.

First, I have used chain stoppers in the past but somehow had
forgotten about them, but adding one to the tandem could solve at
least one problem. I am also grateful for the observation that
thumbies can cause some thumb fatigue on extended rides. Since we are
about to set off on a 240 mile sojourn in Quebec, this probably isn't
the time to do that. Besides, one of the best things about BE is the
ergonomics, which far exceeds brifters and even DTs. Besides it
reminded me of why I have never considered them in the past. On a
single I do 60 % of my riding on or just behind the hoods and 30% on
the drops, I only occasionally use the center of the bars, so thumbies
wouldn't really be all that convenient for me. On the tandem I'm on
the hoods 80% of the time.

I am also considering a moved to ramped and pinned rings. I have not
found them to be all that beneficial on a single, but some people on
the tandem list recommend them. Tandems put an enormous amount of
pressure on the drive train and I have managed to train my stoker to
know that when I say I'm going to drop the ring, she needs to let up
on the pedals, but it's easy to get in a situation and discover that
the gear you thought would take you to the top, wont, and we're
pushing hard to keep going. When we bought the tandem I outfitted it
with a good used DaVinci tandem crank ( a great crank, btw, I have one
on my single touring bike too) and then put some used Shimano 600
rings, a 50/36/26, setup. I think I could probably do less shifting
with a 53/39/28, but want to think about that.

Steve and Joe have pointed out, quite correctly that BE's do shift
very rapidly when you have both hands on the drops. But, I have two
caveats. Our riding tends to be, as I wrote, on rural back roads,
about half of which are dirt. We're not out for speed, but rather
enjoying the country side, and so that tends to keep me up on the
hoods. Of course I could train myself to ride the drops more when I'm
in the hills, but that is most of Vt! Second a tandem is not like a
single. Ours is quite long, with two long TTs and long chain stays to
accommodate panniers. The two riders, the bike, water, and a couple of
small bags, tools, and a pair of jackets brings the total weight up to
about 385 lbs. When you're barreling along a dirt road or a broken
section of chip and seal, the added sense of control from being on the
hoods is quite welcome. Tandems really like to mostly go in a
straight line, until the stoker starts squirming around!

Finally, for the suggestion that I go over to the dark side. If all
else fails I will consider brifters, probably campy and either add the
jtec shiftmate, or convert the White hub.

keep the rubber side down,
michael,
westford, vt

[Earl Grey]

Why not raise the bars so the drops become a more comfortable and more
controlled-feeling option? On most of my bikes I have ridden on the
hoods most of the time because the bars were always on the low end of
the acceptable range. On my Sam I jacked up the bars to accommodate a
stem-mounted child seat, and now find myself riding the drops a lot
more, and enjoying it. In MHO, BEs give the fastest double shifts and
suffer the least from fatigue and soreness issues, though Campy Ergo
isn't bad, either. Right now I have BEs on 4 out of 5 bikes, and rapid
fire shifters on the mtn tandem, which will probably be replaced by
BEs at some point. I have had Ergos on two bikes and liked them.
Another couple of arcane options: Kelly Take-offs or Suntour Command
Shifters (my ex had them, and I liked them, but they do require thumb
force, and I'd say they are slower than BEs). I think BEs rock, though
my next project will have DTs (first DTs EVER for me; I reserve the
right to convert them to BEs later).

Good luck,

Gernot

[Michael Hechmer]

Yup, I could do that.  I set up the tandem to match my singles,which all have the bars about 2 cm below the seat.  I find this a nice compromise for a reach to the drop and control of the bike when I stand up.  But since my stoker doesn't like to stand up I could raise the bars a bit.  It's an ahead set up, but i left two spacers above the stem for this eventuality.

[Michael_S]

our '95 trek tandem is the only bike I have Campy ergoshifters on. Trying to keep the wife happy, steer this battleship and stay safe takes concentration. I run the Shimergo setup with 10 speed Campy shifters and an 8 speed Shimano cassette.

 

~mike