Sit Bone Width and Saddles

[Jay]

I'll preface this by saying I know saddles are highly subjective, and what works for one may not work fo you.  What I wanted to ask about is "general thinking".  Just wanting to confirm some thoughts I've had about this...

My sit bones are 125mm apart.  I've had them measured a few times.  This is when I'm sitting upright.  I believe general rule is the more upright you are on the bike, the wider you go with the saddle (e.g., if I'm 90 degrees/straight up, add a few cm; aero, maybe just one cm).  Any other logic to share with respect to sit bones and saddle width?

My saddle is level with tops of my bars (on two of three bikes).  This puts me in a comfortable position, maybe 60 degrees when I'm in the hoods.  All three bikes have drop bars, but only the older road bike has bars below the saddle.  My neck and upper back feel great in this position, and I've previously had issues in this area, so that's a victory.

I'm still dialing in my Roadini, but for now I have a WTB Silverado on there (135 wide).  It's maybe a little narrow, but I've done 2hr rides and felt fine (pedalling is not impeded at all, and it's comfortable in the nether regions).  Feels like my sit bones are close to the edge but I can feel around there and know there is just enough room to spare.  I've had that same saddle on another bike and that was also fine.  Not a big fan of the edges on that saddle, as it's very flat across and feels like it's digging in a bit (a cm further out than my sit bones), but I'm trying to sort that out and not really my point with this post (just sharing for context).  Reason I went with this 135mm saddle is my previous 147mm Prologo felt too wide, and the cut out was digging in the nether regions.  So I tried something more narrow and I no longer get that discomfort.

I do have a Brooks B17, and I've had one before on an older bike, and a few other leather saddles over the years.  What's attracted me to them is that I rarely got any friction or chafing, or sit bone pain.  I do set them up, nose up, so rear of the saddle is flat and I'm not sliding forward.  

However, the B17 is 35mm wider than the WTB, and 45mm wider than my sit bones, so I'm wondering if this saddle make sense for me...and anyone else with similar 'specs'. I've read/watched reviews where much bigger folks love the saddle (some hate it too, but that's maybe about leather/hardness).  Some of the reviews are from people who say their sit bones are 150+ apart.  That gives them 10mm on either side, vs. my 22.5mm per side.  I realize how we sit on the saddle, torso angle, etc., are different, but generally speaking...like do skinny people or those with somewhat narrow sit bones get along great with this saddle?  If so, is there a set up trick for them, that is different than someone with much wider sit bones?  I would say my problem with it is pedalling freedom, and not feeling impeded by the size of the saddle, the skirt, etc.  I can't say for sure that's my problem with it, just giving a theory.

I'll pause there, as I'll likely get some good questions/comments and can take it from there.  Thanks!

[Josiah Anderson]

Hi Jay,

If you like leather saddles but a B17 is (maybe) too wide, have you tried a Brooks Professional? The construction is similar but they're about 15mm narrower than a B17, IIRC. The Idéale 90 and Berthoud Galibier are also both nice narrower leather saddles. The Pro and 90 are my two favorite saddles for a "road bike" (less-upright) position.

Josiah

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[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 6:45:42 PM UTC-6 Jay wrote:

I'll preface this by saying I know saddles are highly subjective, and what works for one may not work for you.  What I wanted to ask about is "general thinking".  Just wanting to confirm some thoughts I've had about this...

Saddle  dimensions are much more complex than just width. It's not just where the sit-bones hit the saddle, but at what angle. How much of the saddle lies outside the sit-bones and how it's shaped are also very important. Also important are the cant of the rear and how much "scoop" there is in the transition from tail to front. And all of those things, as you note, have to be in the context of your back-hip angle as you ride.

WTB saddles tend to be very flat across the back, with an abrupt falloff in cross-section. I was attracted to them by the cant and scoop, which are a key feature of most Brooks saddles, but the flatness didn't work for me. The Soma Ensho, which is made by Velo in Taiwan, is perfect for me. It's 275mm wide, but the back has a slightly rounded cross-section that falls off at an increasing rate. The amount of cant and scoop feel just right. I can only ride B-17's in a more upright position, and I have to be positioned a little forward on them. I also ride a Berthoud Aspin, which is a similar shape and width in cross-section but has a bit less cant and scoop.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[Bill Lindsay]

" It's 275mm wide,"

That's probably the length, not the width.  :)

BL in EC

[Ted Durant]

On Feb 29, 2024, at 1:21 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

" It's 275mm wide,"

That's probably the length, not the width.  :)

Yup. Shouldn’t try to make rushed posts before getting on a plane. 

It’s 140mm wide 

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

My 275 mm wide saddle serves as a nice armrest on shallow descents.  Gemini took a nice glamour shot for me :).

Toshi in Oakland

[George Schick]

The trouble is that experimenting around with these different saddle widths, lengths, "scoops," or whatever in order to find the right fit can run into a lot of money.  Most of these saddles, Brooks especially, aren't cheap and having to buy and try one only to find that it doesn't work for you can be a difficult decision.  Too bad that someone hasn't developed a "saddle fit" device like the "fit kit" where one could experience the ride of all these different kinds of dimensions. But that's probably an impractical idea...

On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 6:45:42 PM UTC-6 Jay wrote:

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Rivet saddles used to allow you to try a bunch of their saddles before you chose one to keep.  I'm not sure if they are doing that nowadays...

Toshi

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[Jay]

Thanks for the thoughts, and humour ;-)

Josiah - I had a Pro saddle a couple years ago, it was okay, but didn't work on that particular bike at the time (wish I still had it).

Ted - I noticed the Soma Ensho a month ago when scanning saddles (brown ones, for the Riv) and I didn't see availability.  On my radar though!

George - I've been sampling some (Amazon), and this has proved a wise move as I've returned 5 or so saddles in the last year (kept a few too).  When I've got a good deal at an LBS, like I did with the Brooks, I'll take the risk.  Usually I can sell for a small loss, depending on the saddle, but the used market is tough these days (at least up here in Canada).

Funny (good) thing this morning with the Brooks, I put it on my Fargo (that I use on mixed-use trails in my town) and went for a short ride this morning.  I didn't wear bib shorts.  Just some compression-type boxers with no seams in the wrong places, tights (was -5C) and went for a ride on the trails behind my house (just a few km in one direction, but I went back and forth for about 30 minutes).  Saddle was very comfortable!  Maybe it was because I wasn't wearing bibs that have just don't work for me.  I recall posts on another thread I started about dealing in a Brooks, where people mentioned not wearing padded shorts, that stuck with me and I gave it a shot.  I didn't have any sit bone pain, perineum discomfort and no friction.  I was on/off the saddle a lot (and the bike, clearing blown over branches) and maybe that helped...as it wasn't a 1hr+ ride of constant pedaling.  I'll stick with this set up for a while and see how it goes.  Maybe it's those darn bib shorts giving me grief (I've tried many over the years, with plastic saddles).  I'll report back after a few rides.

[Ted Durant]

On Feb 29, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Jay <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:

 Maybe it was because I wasn't wearing bibs that have just don't work for me.  

That’s a very good possibility. I worked hard to find saddles that work well for me and, in the case of the leather saddles, worked hard to tune the fit. Anything more than a very thin pad in biking shorts ruins the ride for me. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI 53217

[ascpgh]

I've found that the dynamic of a saddle is as important as the sit bone width consideration and close to both of those is the longitudinal dimension of your ideal sit bone stance.

When you sit on the saddle with those two points of your pelvis the force applied is way more than your thumbs when you handle the saddle in the LBS. I think cheaper padded saddles almost formulate construction anticipating the thumb testers. Even a brand new Brooks Professional will deflect under body weight applied at those two bony points. 

The dynamic I speak of, for me, has to do with what part(s) of the saddle deflect and which stay in shape. I got a new saddle for my custom that accommodated my sit bone width and nicely provided a level platform on which those bony points of contact rested without an angle promoting a slow slide in any direction I would have to actively correct or expend energy to resist. I remain seated longer than most before I transition to pedaling out of the saddle and being able to move back on the saddle and continue to have level platform of support of my sit bones is preferable. As I move fore and aft, pedaling while seated my body weight applies to slightly different positions and can have an effect on the less mobile portions of the cover which hopefully do not create problems. A lot of forecasting if veering from a tried and true saddle you've used in the past. Having a consistent platform of support for my sit bones through the fore and aft positions of my seated pedaling is key. 

The particular dynamic (actually static) feature I found disagreeable with my initial saddle choice, a Rivet Diablo, was the line of leather down the middle of the saddle from the nose to the cantle at the rear. As I began to break in the saddle I was getting a dull ache I hadn't experienced in a long time form my longer rides and realized this leather down the middle remained drawn tight like a ridge line while the leather under duress of my sit bones began to conform to them. The more break in, the higher the unsagging ridge was despite loostening the tension adjustment. The leather cover of the saddle was under varied foci of force and responded predictably.

The answer was a slightly different saddle shape, the RIvet Pearl, and the slotted option. Not because I needed the relief of contact at the area of the cut out but rather the removal of material in that center strip, fore and aft, that didn't have forces like my sit bones deflecting it so removing  some material allowing it to sag under the much less (and delicate) perineal contact did the trick.

Here's a picture of a Rivet saddle like mine with the cut out and sit bone break in that really shows the concept I'm describing: https://rivetcycleworks.com. You can also see the generous fore and aft sit bone platform too.. 

 

From the Rivet website:

Our Return Policy

If you buy a saddle from a Local Bike Shop (LBS), then you are bound to their return policy. We support our local bike shops and want to support their policies.

If you buy a saddle directly from us, then… We give you 365 days from date of purchase to ride it, tweak it, break it in, love it, or not. You can return it or exchange it for different models if it’s not the right fit. We want you to get the right saddle. Period.

BUT, on the 366th day, you had better have a crazy good reason why you didn’t contact us within the year.
If you do decide to return your Rivet, we will gladly take it back from you, and refund your money, minus the initial shipping cost for handling and re-stocking. Fair nuff.

I met the owner (Head Rivetress) , of Rivet Cycleworks, Deb Banks, at the Philadelphia Bike expo and bought from her saddle line after a nice conversation. Cocktails and dinner with her, Peter Gilbert of Cane Creek and Wayne Bingham of Mel Pinto Imports was the icing. Really nice folks. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Nic Fox]

Too bad that someone hasn't developed a "saddle fit" device like the "fit kit" where one could experience the ride of all these different kinds of dimensions. But that's probably an impractical idea...

It's not the same thing and in this case it's too late to be of any use, but if you check out the links in the message earlier today about the Gladys Bike closure, apparently they had a Saddle Library. Seems like a very neat idea.

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