Spitballing: Hunqabeam fixed conversion ideas

[Deacon Patrick]

I’ve been riding my Quickbeam in Poser Fixed mode (keeping the forward chain/pedal “engaged” at all times) for medium length sections throughout my various recent rides and I’ve learned a lot, including that having the chain always engaged, even just in on directly, feels much, much better on my brain and makes all aspects of riding easier. So, naturally, I’m getting ahead of myself puzzling how I might create a fixed Hunqabeam. Here are questions, thoughts and I toss them out to you all as you have a higher bike IQ than I do.

— Vertical dropouts necessitate a chain tensioner or eccentric hub.
— Can fixed work with a chain tensioner? One pulley, or two pulley?

White Industries Eno Eccentric hub
Surly Dingle Cog: 17/21
Chainrings: 28/32
Yield: High gear of 52”, low of 36”, same tooth count
52” would be my standard gear. A bit low for descents, but the Hunqapillar is going to be loaded and so I don’t bomb descents when loaded. Then for bikepacking, shift down to 36” gear. Will this work? Benefit: no chain tensioner required, simpler, but not the same range as is possible with a 20t chain tensioner.

Other ideas for accomplishing the same thing? (I’ve ruled out Sturmey-Archer’s 3-speed fixed hub for the pedal play it has, as well as the gear noise, either of which would drive me nuts.)

With abandon,
Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[Max S]

Fixed doesn’t work well with tensioners. ENO hub is your best bet, if you minimize other modifications. Or find a “magic gear”.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think there may be a deal-killer in there. I think White Industries does not make an Eccentric ENO variant for a traditional thread on fixed cog with lockring. If that’s the case, then you can’t run a dingle with a lockring.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, Ca.

[Jim M.]

On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 11:03:45 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I think there may be a deal-killer in there. I think White Industries does not make an Eccentric ENO variant for a traditional thread on fixed cog with lockring. If that’s the case, then you can’t run a dingle with a lockring.

Yes, it does. It makes a fixed/free eccentric ENO that, imho, works great. I've used one for many happy miles.

jim m

walnut creek, ca 

[Deacon Patrick]

I wondered about that, Bill. From the Eno Hub page, right column: “fixed lock ring thread” — I presumed “thread” means thread, but it may not.
https://www.whiteind.com/eno. Of course, my fall back would be to go with a single gear fixed, possibly with a free wheel flip flop for long descents.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

Jim M. You are running a Surly Dingle on a White Industries Eccentric ENO hub ? Great! No deal killer then.

Bill

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I have never used an ENO hub from White Ind. but had strongly considered one in the past and my research had led me to believe older versions actually used threaded track cogs but they were more recently redesigned for their proprietary splined track cogs. So unless you could find a NOS or used version without the splines you’d be restricted to using the freewheel side with rotofix install method to make it work with a surly dingle cog in current production but then you eliminate the freewheeling flip flop option.

maybe contact White directly to see if you could still get a threaded fixed version? I never got that far due to budget constraints and had ruled the hub out, unfortunately.

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville NJ

[JohnS]

Hello DP,

I would recommend the ENO (one in reverse) hub. I found a used threaded one on e-bay which was built up with a 26" rim. Works great on my '82 Stumpjumper which is now a fixed gear city bike. I find it very easy to set the chain tension since I turn the axle with a wrench and then tighten the cap screws. No fuss to speak of but may or may not take longer than the QB/S1 quick release to tighten.

Take care and enjoy the ride,

JohnS

[Ray Varella]

You could also take up the slack with a ghost ring/cog

Ray
Vallejo CA

[Edwin W]

Why not just “fix” the Quickbeam?

Edwin

[Deacon Patrick]

I am, Edwin. The question I’m looking forward to is should I love fixed as much as I think I will, how do I get the Hunqapillar fixed. I may try lightish bikepacking with the Quickbeam, but it doesn’t cary the load of the Hunqapillar.

With abandon,
Patrick

[David B]

I know this likely isn’t the answer, but I think what you’re suggesting is a Black Mountain Monstercross.
Here’s mine with WI Dos and Surly dingle cog, and Albastaches too: https://instagram.com/p/Bb-vYYWBbqA/

[Deacon Patrick]

Great looking bike, David! In essence, that’s what I’ll have with the Quickbeam, though not the wider tires. Without two chainrings, how do you tension the chain when switching cogs?

With abandon,
Patrick

[Eric Daume]

The BMC has long dropouts, kind of like the QB, but forward facing. You just slide the wheel back and forth to tension the chain. On my BMC, I can make up a 4-5 tooth difference by doing this.

I second David's suggestion. The BMC is a great bike.

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[Philip Williamson]

David - I second the praise for your Black Mountain MonsterBeam. That's a well-dialed machine. 

Patrick - I have an old-style ENO hub for sale.vFixed/free, silver, 135mm, smooth bearings. 32h is probably a no-go for you, but the flanges are tall, and the bracing angle is wide and symmetrical. I'd want ~$100 for the hub, which is about what I paid for it on the list. I also have a spare 17/21 Dingle cog, and might be able to scare up a lockring from a friend. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com 

[Deacon Patrick]

Thank you, Philip! I replied off list — but the short of it is me wheel guy says 32 hole’ll be grand.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

After my grocery run with the trailer yesterday in poser fixed mode, I am leaning to a simple, wider gear system that would give me aprox 30” and 60” fixed gears. One cog, and swap chains to shift, which would be rare, and likely only when I’m bikepacking. That opens up the White Industries new cog system as I’d use a single cog. Anyone see any issues with that?

With abadnon,
Patrick

[Max S]

Need to do the math, but would it be possible to get close with a large/small // small/large combo of rings // cogs?..

Like 42:19 and 34:27 get you 61” and 35” gears, respectively, on 700x44 tires, but would allow the chain length to remain roughly the same, no?.. (it should be fairly easy to find 42 and 34t rings on a 110 mm BCD crank, but 27t cogs may be trickier to source.)

[Philip Williamson]

Sounds good. You can also simply swap a short piece of chain in and out, with two connector links. I did that once. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Philip Williamson]

36/24 x 17/21 gives 33" and 61"

That's about the closest you can get with a 110/74 crankset, as far as I can tell. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Bill Lindsay]

I think it makes sense in theory.  Using the crankset you already have, I think that gives you only one option, which means less fretting, I suppose.  

That one option is a 48 tooth big ring, a 24 tooth small ring, on the 110/74 crankset you already have, mated to the largest White Industries fixed cog, 20-teeth.  With a 50mm tire that would give you gears of 68 and 34 gear inches.  Go 24/44 and you'd be at 34 and 60 inches with 50mm tires.  

If you were emphatic about getting a lot closer to 30 on your low gear, you'd nail it with a 94/58 crankset with a 22 and a 44 tooth rings.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 9:48:02 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Eric Daume]

Trying to break a chain via master link out in the field when it’s cold and dirty seems like a recipe for frustration.  If you’re using the older hub, with screw on cog, it would be a lot easier to run a double cog and two rings up front. 

Eric

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[Deacon Patrick]

Great point, Eric. The idea would be to ride the 60” gear as my “always” gear, with the 30” as a bailout to make me more comfortable trying fixed bikepacking. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if I get out there and delight to find I ride 95% of the ridable stuff on 60”, so no need for a bail out gear. Grin.

Part of what I need to learn is does riding fixed make it easier to gear up vs. SS, even on sustained climbs because of the fly wheel effect pushing the pedals through the “dead zone”?

With abandon,
Patrick

[Max S]

Also, re. finding oddball cog combos, reusing cassette sprockets may be the best way, provided the hub has a splined body that’s fixed. King I believe has its own version, but also there used to be a replacement freehub body that didn’t ratchet. I can’t seem to locate an example on the web, but remember seeing it at some point. If that were in existence / procured, might not even need to get a different wheel!

[Justin, Oakland]

I wonder if it makes more sense to have the 30” gear as a freewheel in the other side. If you’re going to bail why not bail hard?


-J

[David B]

That’s what I was thinking. Dismantle a multi speed freewheel and make a single cog freewheel with a large cog. Could likely figure gearing without having to mess with chain length.
David

[Justin August]

Just get a White industries. I think they sell huge free wheels.

-J

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[David B]

Didn’t realize they made 23t freewheels. If you’re up for a freewheel gear, in the general range would be 34/15 fixed and 26/23 freewheel.
Theoretically the chain length would be the same. But still, not a fixed gear for the bailout.
David

[Joe Bernard]

Well now y'all got me thinking (this will be a slight thread diversion). I'm not quite ready for fixed, but Will @ Riv is big on 2-speeds on vertical dropouts with a chain tensioner. My soon to be here Cheviot was going to get the electric treatment, but I've decided to do a different bike next summer for that and focus on full-exercise riding this winter (I'm WAY outta shape). I already have enough all-the-gears bikes, so I think a nice, light, 2-speed candy apple red Cheviot would be really sweet: One cog in the back, one big ring up front for going down my hill, one small for riding back home. I already have the Silver 38-24 cranks and 650B wheels from my Clem L; I just need a single cog, Gear Clamps and Paul Melvin tensioner and I'm good to go.

Thanks for the idea, Patrick! It's not exactly what you're doing, but it's a similar thought that will work on my terrain while keeping the frame uncluttered and simple looking, a vibe I've always admired. I can't wait!

[Ryan Fleming]

o I think a nice, light, 2-speed candy apple red Cheviot would be really sweet:

I think so , too Joe. I can't wait to see it...Ryan in Winnipeg

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I managed to successfully convert an old Atom 6sp 14-28 freewheel to a 15/17 dingle freewheel on an old 12 speed frame to make a poor man's Quickbeam.  The 15t sits flush with the outer edge of the freewheel body and on a 126mm spaced hub the chainline worked out to pretty much match the 47.5 of a 32t middle ring of an MTB crank. I needed a half-link, however, to get the chain length just right and the LBS only had halves for 1/8" bmx chains. Rather than special order a single half link I just got a new bmx chain that came with a half-link and master link and it luckily worked out fine.  I recently tried adding back the 14t to make it a "3 speed" and increase the high gear a little but that spacing wasn't as cooperative so its staying a dingle instead of tringle for now.

Was a fun project and my first threaded freewheel disassembly. 

The 3rd position 20t (or was it 21t?) cog would probably work better with 42mm chainline and may get tested out if these cranks happen to find their way onto another build.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BU77xbhBDfG/?taken-by=sirpsycole 

Deacon Patrick, I think you'll enjoy riding fixed.  It's quite an experience.  I'm a recent convert myself and still a novice with only a year or two of occasional fixed riding but even poser fixed riding doesn't truly prepare you for those first few moments where your body just expects to coast out of habit and you are quickly reminded that you can't.

Brian Cole

Lawrenceville, NJ

[David B]

Looks like Soma makes a 23t fixed cog, so this totally is do-able, you'd just have to rotafix it onto the freewheel side - could add a BB lockring for fun.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Joe,

the dinglespeed Cheviot sounds terrific and happy to see you are reconsidering trying singlespeeding even with a big hill to climb.  I have to keep fighting the urge to give this kind treatment to my Clem H since it's currently my only derailer equipped multispeed bike and I honestly don't even get enough riding in to justify my multiple bikes at the moment.

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 4:17:02 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

There's the opposite adjustment, too: I've found that after a great deal of fixed riding, and getting back on a freewheel bike, that it takes a few hundred yards to get used again to actively moving your feet over crank top dead center; until you re-adjust, you, or at least I, tend to pedal in squares, jerkily. But adjustment either way, once you're used to both fw and fixed, is not a big deal, IME.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Coal Bee Rye Anne <lionsrug...@gmail.com> wrote:

....

[Deacon Patrick]

Patrick of the Moore ... yes. That reverse adjustment from fixed to free is what has me anticipating switching the Hunqapiller if fixed is the bees knees.
Coal Bee: Aye, I will wear me boiled wool knee socks and we’ll find out if they are spikey pedal proof as well as pit bull proof. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick: what did you decide for the gearing, to achieve a 30" and a 60" (roughly) gear?

I thought of one of the 2 speed kickback hubs, but you were looking for a 200% jump, and these have only ~137%.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Deacon Patrick]

My current plan is to go as simple as possible. One gear. One gear only. 38x20 which is 52.5” and see how I do with that. I know I do fine hauling a 200# trailer on 6% climbs on asphalt with it, not sure how I do hauling 50# of gear/food/water in panniers on single track at altitude. Grin.

However, today I rode my Quickbeam in 68” gear up to Rampart Reservoir and did just fine. I had to LCG an 1/8th of a mile twice near the top, but I was going walking speed or slower anyway so nothing lost. But that’s not a loaded bikepacking rig and it’s not single track. I’m gonna have some learnin’ to do next year! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Update: working with Grant, who connected me to Mark Nobilette (who is realitively nearby me), Mark will replace the dropouts to Quickbeam style. This has multiple advantages, including no need to carry/swap a chain but get two gear options that work for loaded riding fixed. Looks like a March time frame for when the Quickapillar Hunqabeam will ride again! Thank you for spitballing with me! It has been a big help.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick: Why not long horizontals instead of rearward facing track ends? Much easier to use, IME. Is it because the track ends are longer? FWIW, Chauncey Matthews found some longer than Campy 1010 horizontals (old standard for long) in Britain, and put them on my '03.I hope to get him to put long horizontals on the '99 so that I can accommodate cogs from 15 t to 21 t.

And while you are getting your H modified: Oh, the possibilities! More bottle cage mounts, dyno wiring guides, front lowrider braze ons, pump pegs, etc etc etc. Rearview mirror boss on fork crown!

I'll be interested to see what results.

Here's a 1010; mine are longer. 

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[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of altering Rivendell models, I know of someone who, after an accident that damaged frame or fork, had disc mounts brazed on to the Atlantis and then had it repainted in Atlantis colors. Best of both worlds!

[Deacon Patrick]

Ha! Nae. Plenty of brazons as is. I’m steppin’ out the way and let the experts determine the details. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Irreguleur]

Deacon-
What color, if any, are you repainting? Whole bike or just ends?

[Deacon Patrick]

No idea. We’ll see when the frame comes back what it needs.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Ian A]

My 2 cents...

Request a repaint of the affected area from Mark after the drop outs are replaced. That way it is ready to ride the day it comes back. A tastefully contrasting paint means the rest of the frame and fork can be left alone and costs significantly less.

IanA/Canada)

(at today's exchange rate my C$.002 is around US$.0016)

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

And the Hunqabeast shall ride again! I hope your getting the updated Frank Jones track ends too... I think your creating a dream custom right there. Enjoy!

[Eric Daume]

Forward facing dropouts as Patrick M suggests are much, much easier to use than rear facing. This is doubly true if you keep a derailer hanger on there in case you want to have gears at some point. This is definitely something the builder should get your input on.

For a bike with long chainstays like the Hunq, there are zero downsides to forward facing dropouts, and several to rear facing.

Eric

With abandon,
Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

There's also resale to consider. Selling a Hunqapillar with rear-facing track ends is going to be nigh on impossible if that time ever comes.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

If it’s a 62cm getting the new Frank Jones Sr. rear facing hooded track outs I’ll happily take it off of Patrick’s hands should he ever have a change of heart... but I’m getting the impression that’s going to be highly unlikely.

Brian Cole

[Philip Williamson]

I can see that if the stays allow the room to exit fat tires easily, then there’s no downside to front facing dropouts over rear facing track ends (my bike does not, so I’m biased). What are the downsides of rear facing track ends with fat tires? I’ve never encountered any.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Justin August]

Can you/could you/should you try to put something like paragon sliders or rockers there?

-J

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[Eric Daume]

My Karate Monkey has rear facing track ends. Changing the wheel ranges from a hassle (single speed) to very frustrating (geared) to probably howling anger (gears + fenders, though I've never used this setup). On the KM, it's sort of worthwhile for the short chainstays. That's not a concern on the Hunq.

Eric

[Deacon Patrick]

“Resale value to consider.” You lot are FUNNY! Grin.

Talked with Mark Nobilette. Rear facing dropouts are stronger and he’s going to make them longer (old style), so I’m going with them despite the horror it will cause here. Feel free to ruminate among yourselves. Grin.

I’ve never had an issue with the rear facing drop outs of the Quickbeam and found them easy and convienent, both freewheel and fixed (of course there is a learning curve to “shifting” fixed, but that is true no matter the direction of the dropouts). My guess is anyone daft enough to ride fixed on a loaded Hunqabeam will feel the same way. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Justin August]

I’m impressed at your commitment to the fixed lifestyle and going all in with no derailleur option.

-Justin

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[Bill Lindsay]

Is there any "good" production bicycle available on planet Earth that is:

1.  Designed specifically to be a single speed

2.  Designed with forward facing rear dropouts

The only bikes I know of that are designed to be single speed and designed with forward facing rear dropouts are beach cruisers.  Are there any 'good' bikes designed that way?

I approve of Deacon Patrick's general plan to trust Riv and trust Nobilette.  I also approve of DP's specific plan to run QB-style track ends.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 2:48:24 AM UTC-8, Eric Daume wrote:

My Karate Monkey has rear facing track ends. Changing the wheel ranges from a hassle (single speed) to very frustrating (geared) to probably howling anger (gears + fenders, though I've never used this setup). On the KM, it's sort of worthwhile for the short chainstays. That's not a concern on the Hunq.

Eric

On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 11:37 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can see that if the stays allow the room to exit fat tires easily, then there’s no downside to front facing dropouts over rear facing track ends (my bike does not, so I’m biased). What are the downsides of rear facing track ends with fat tires? I’ve never encountered any.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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[Justin August]

BMC Monstercross but it’s not specifically SS.

-J

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[Deacon Patrick]

Justin, Fixed lifestyle? Ha. I’ve no idea what that means. Naught ‘bout me lifestyle is changing because me dropouts are rotating 90ish˚. Double grin. The shift is entirely selfish, given the benifits to my brain and body. I jest, but I think I know what you mean, taking “lifestyle” to be “riding style.” And there is a definate difference in style of riding, though in my experience so far no particularly significant (to anyone but a racer) difference in time for each ride. I suspect I am faster climbing (smoother ride increases traction and less having to compensate for deceleration of a freewheel. I also suspect the speed difference is small, but of course on a 10 mile climb/descent, 2/3 to 3/4 of riding time will be on the climb. I know I ride slower down hill, but again that has minimal impact on average speed, because dropping from a 30mph average to a 25mph average is negligable to anyone but a racer, especially given the gains climbing.

Numbers from the Tour de France bear this out. I read somewhere on the interwebs (so you know it’s true) that the first year the Tour de France allowed freewheels (singlespeed) in addition to fixed the average speed jumped a whopping 0.3 or 0.4 mph (or close to that) over the entire 1,500 whatever miles of the race. For me, nothing important is lost by losing the freewheel and a lot is gained.

I’ve actually considered this jump (to either all ss or fixed) for a number of years, but never pulled the trigger because just shifting less on the Hunqapillar made it a singlespeed that could shift on the fly. Not the same, but close. I didn’t try fixed because I had to try it on a bike I know (even handlebars can mess with my brain and I need days to recover, so a whole new bike that was fixed? No what to know what was due to what.). So when I did try fixed on the Quickbeam, I was ready to jump all in if it worked. It did, and here I am. Grin.

Philip, Ha! Aye. Well, I wondered as I confidently rode over miles of slick snow on today’s ride if these were conditions that I would have ben far more trepedatious in with a freewhell. I make it through 99% of the technical stuff that I did on the SS plus I can climb 2% more of the stuff I couldn’t SS, so I come out ahead in a way noone cares about. Grin.

Bill, I appreciate the vote of confidence. Grin. I’d add to that list clearence for widish tires of 2.1”. As someone mentioned, I’m getting the equivilant of my ideal custom frame for bikepacking and hauling.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Eric Daume]

Bill asked if there was any "good" production bike that was single speed only, forward facing dropouts, and not a beach cruiser.

Good is a debatable concept, but I will submit my old Novara Buzz as exhibit one:

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[Eric Daume]

Pardon my interrupted message earlier.

Bill asked if there was any "good" production bike that was single speed only, forward facing dropouts, and not a beach cruiser.

Good is a debatable concept, but I will submit my old Novara Buzz as exhibit one:

https://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/2013/07/bike-66-intro-rei-novara-buzz-one.html

No derailer hanger, 120mm spacing, and forward facing dropouts.

For something that cost $200, half off of the original list of $400, it was a good enough bike that I quite enjoyed riding.

Eric

[Bill Lindsay]

Novarra  Buzz!  Yes, I'm satisfied.  There is at least one....

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[ted]

Fair enough, but is the novara buzz one currently in production? Looked like just multi speed on the rei site.

[ted]

Is the novara buz one available new today? Looked to me like only multi speeds on the rei site.