Looking for that String in The Custom Color Labyrinth

[mushmash]

Hello All,

Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
up with other riders.

My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
selects and communicates a custom bike color!

I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
have to do right for myself.

Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.
Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-1256590@N22/
).

How and where does a guy go to look at colors? I look around me every
day, but how do you "identify" and communicate a color to the RBW
folks?

Thanks for any help on this project. It is a big commitment for me and
I don't want buyer's remorse just because the color isn't just so!

[William F. House]

It was really easy. I knew I wanted a dark green. I went to our local
hardware store and found it. It's called Scholar Green and is part of
the Ralph Lauren line of interior paints. You can see it on this page:

http://www.ralphlaurenhome.com/rlhome/products/paint/items.asp?haid=48

I grabbed a sample card and simply mailed it to Keven who was helping
me with the AHH. I just took delivery a few days ago. Amazing bike.

One thing to note in your decision. I have pretty high standards I
guess and upon close inspection of the bike I found NUMEROUS flaws in
the custom paint job - including a hairline of the green on the cream
color headtube and imprecise highlights of the cream on the green
(like the little circles aren't all perfect). There are quite few
spots that really could've been much better, but you have to look to
find them. Is it a big deal to me. Not really. Do I think it should've
been better for shelling out an extra $200 for a nearly $4000 bike?
Absolutely. Rivendell's response has been "we'll check bikes more
closely." I've had other custom paint projects that were done by hand
(high-end guitars, furniture, artwork, etc.) and had come to expect a
very high degree of precision and flawless work. Overall I'm happy
with the bike, but in retrospect I'm not sure I'd have shelled out
that much money for the value of work I got. Your mileage may vary. I
LOVE the dark green though. Will be posting pics on my Flickr site
soon.

On Oct 13, 10:13 am, mushmash <mushm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Hello All,
>
> Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
> several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
> up with other riders.
>
> My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
> selects and communicates a custom bike color!
>
> I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
> want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
> bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
> bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
> have to do right for myself.
>
> Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.

> Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-12565...

[Bill Connell]

You might ask Rivendell, but if they're using Imron, the same Imron
paint books at auto painters would give you accurate samples and codes
to give them. Riv may also be able to match up with the color of that
other AHH if they painted it.

--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

[Paul D]

William,

Thanks for the feedback. I do struggle with the potential for the
custom paint job to come back with mistakes. And maybe not as good as
the basic blue paint color. I would be really crestfallen to have a
shlocky job done after planning so long for a new bike.

Maybe a good question would be whether you prefer a flawless OEM blue
or the flawed green?

I will be very curious to see your green colors on Flickr on the bike.
To me on this computer screen, it almost looks gray.

Paul D.
Austin, TX

On Oct 13, 11:33 am, "William F. House" <williamfho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[William F. House]

Paul,

You raise a good point - I'm definitely more satisfied with the
"flawed" green than I would be with a "flawless" OEM blue. I know that
no one will ever look at the bike and say, "Oh man, that's a terrible
paint job." It's just on close inspection where things are
noticeable.

Interesting that the green looks gray to you. In reality it's a very
dark rich forest green. I'd say the link I supplied is accurate, at
least on my monitor.

And again, all that said, I'm very happy with the bike. I've never
owned a bike this nice.

- Will

[Richard]

You might try calling Rivendell to ask which of their painters will be
painting your bike. Most bike painters are happy to help you out, and
might also send you their color charts to look at.

Good luck.

On Oct 13, 11:13 am, mushmash <mushm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Hello All,
>
> Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
> several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
> up with other riders.
>
> My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
> selects and communicates a custom bike color!
>
> I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
> want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
> bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
> bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
> have to do right for myself.
>
> Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.

> Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-12565...

[Ken Yokanovich]

The ability to pick a color for a small upcharge is REALLY a nice
option.

As far as paint quality is concerned... I believe that the production
frames are coming in to Rivendell painted already. The "extra" $200
to choose a custom color is amazingly inexpensive. I suspect that
Rivendell doesn't make ANY money on that, considering the cost to have
the bicycle stripped and re-painted. I suspect the quality is "good
enough" for a rider.... Probably as good of a paint job as one would
get as a "factory paint." Custom paint it is not.

I'm extremely picky when it comes to paint quality too, but I also
understand how difficult a good paint job is to do well. Having
worked in a shop for about 15 years, I've seen LOTS of bicycles.
Almost all of them have flaws somewhere in the paint. Obviously the
bicycle is made up of many small tubes with lots of inside/outside
surfaces and ample opportunity for over/under-spray.

If you want show-quality paint, save up for the Joe Bell, or skip the
$200 extra and have the frame sent directly to Joe Bell. I suspect
you'll wait another 6 months or so and probably expect to pay close to
an additional $500 for paint work. For a more durable option, you
could go with custom powdercoat through Spectrum, but I believe a one-
color job will run you $400 or so.

Find a color you like somewhere as a color chip, paint book, color of
car. Make note of year, make, model and the paint code can be looked
up. Give your painter some liberty because not every color can be
matched 100%. It's a bike after all, yer' spose to ride 'em, when you
do, they get scratched and dirty anyhow.

[William F. House]

This is what Rivendell should say. As a novice, I paid $200 expecting
it to be flawless. I would've appreciated a little more transparency.

(If they actually state this on their website and I simply missed it
then it's my fault.)

On Oct 13, 1:37 pm, Ken Yokanovich <reflector.collec...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-10-13 at 12:37 -0700, Ken Yokanovich wrote:
> The ability to pick a color for a small upcharge is REALLY a nice
> option.
>
> As far as paint quality is concerned... I believe that the production
> frames are coming in to Rivendell painted already. The "extra" $200
> to choose a custom color is amazingly inexpensive. I suspect that
> Rivendell doesn't make ANY money on that, considering the cost to have
> the bicycle stripped and re-painted. I suspect the quality is "good
> enough" for a rider.... Probably as good of a paint job as one would
> get as a "factory paint." Custom paint it is not.

Then I must have gotten one super fantastic deal with my Saluki. I got
the color of my choice for a fifty dollar upcharge. As it happens, the
color was the standard color for one of the 650B mixtes, Fairway Green
Metallic, but it was a custom color as far as I was concerned. It was a
very nice job, too -- not that I went over it with a scanning electron
microscope looking for flaws -- and I'm extremely happy with it. It's
held up very well, too.

>
> I'm extremely picky when it comes to paint quality too, but I also
> understand how difficult a good paint job is to do well. Having
> worked in a shop for about 15 years, I've seen LOTS of bicycles.
> Almost all of them have flaws somewhere in the paint. Obviously the
> bicycle is made up of many small tubes with lots of inside/outside
> surfaces and ample opportunity for over/under-spray.
>
> If you want show-quality paint, save up for the Joe Bell, or skip the
> $200 extra and have the frame sent directly to Joe Bell. I suspect
> you'll wait another 6 months or so and probably expect to pay close to
> an additional $500 for paint work. For a more durable option, you
> could go with custom powdercoat through Spectrum, but I believe a one-
> color job will run you $400 or so.

OK, maybe it makes sense to worry about show-quality paint if the bike
is intended to be a show bike and a wall-hanger; but as far as I'm
concerned, not so much if you actually intend to ride the bike --
because chips, scratches, dirt and abrasion will surely break your
heart.

> Find a color you like somewhere as a color chip, paint book, color of
> car. Make note of year, make, model and the paint code can be looked
> up. Give your painter some liberty because not every color can be
> matched 100%. It's a bike after all, yer' spose to ride 'em, when you
> do, they get scratched and dirty anyhow.

Dirt washes off. Pretty paint gives you incentive to keep the bike
clean. But don't go getting all morose if a perfect paint job gets
marred: it will happen. It can't not happen.

[Paul D]

On Oct 13, 2:44 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:

> Dirt washes off.  Pretty paint gives you incentive to keep the bike
> clean.  But don't go getting all morose if a perfect paint job gets
> marred: it will happen.  It can't not happen.

Something to keep in mind, for sure. Ever have them send a vial of
touch-up paint as part of the deal?

They've got to mix it and they can't use it all down to the last two
ounces.

[Steve Palincsar]

Can you even do that with Imron?

[Rambouilleting Utahn]

I had a custom hardtail painted by Joe Bell years ago and the builder
handed me a paint sample book from the company that Joe buys his
paints from. Find out from Rivendell what line of paint Joe is using
and a local body shop or body shop supply house should have a sample
book for you to page through. While not having the cutouts and fills
that your AHH will have the paint on that mountain bike is beautiful.

[JimD]

William,
If what you outline here is what you want, you really should consider
a Joe Bell paint job.
A Joe Bell paint job will pass the 'hairy eye ball test, and maybe
then some.

You will also need to cowboy up for the time and money it takes.

I have a Saluki with a 'standard' paint job and a Riv custom with a
Joe Bell paint job.

I'm pleased with both both but there is no comparison and no strong
reason to compare.

Both bikes are fun to ride and near as I can tell the paint has
nothing to do with that.

Oh, and both bikes get dirty and the paint can get chipped on both.

-Jimd

[cyclotourist]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Then I must have gotten one super fantastic deal with my Saluki.  I got
the color of my choice for a fifty dollar upcharge.  As it happens, the
color was the standard color for one of the 650B mixtes, Fairway Green
Metallic, but it was a custom color as far as I was concerned.  It was a
very nice job, too -- not that I went over it with a scanning electron
microscope looking for flaws -- and I'm extremely happy with it.  It's
held up very well, too.

-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---

I think all the Salukis were painted here in the States?  That's why they were offered with three colors to choose from and a minimal up-charge for custom. 

I have been wrong before.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye, scientist guy

[cyclotourist]

+1.  Joe Bell is perfection.  He uses Dupont Imron.  Definite back-log though, so be patient.  I wonder if he has assistants/apprentices?

Now you have $2,500 into the bike and are about $500 away from a full custom.

[Bill Connell]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:42 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>>
>> Then I must have gotten one super fantastic deal with my Saluki.  I got
>> the color of my choice for a fifty dollar upcharge.  As it happens, the
>> color was the standard color for one of the 650B mixtes, Fairway Green
>> Metallic, but it was a custom color as far as I was concerned.  It was a
>> very nice job, too -- not that I went over it with a scanning electron
>> microscope looking for flaws -- and I'm extremely happy with it.  It's
>> held up very well, too.
>

> I think all the Salukis were painted here in the States?  That's why they
> were offered with three colors to choose from and a minimal up-charge for
> custom.
>
> I have been wrong before.

IIRC, many of the Salukis arrived unpainted, so the painting charge
would be minimal compared to stripping and repainting a frame (which i
believe is what the $200 upcharge covers). As someone else mentioned,
a Joe Bell paint job starts at $350, so while $200 is certainly
nothing to sneeze at, i don't know if it'll buy a 10/10 paint job. The
wait for JB paint is also not trivial - 6 months, last i heard. I know
custom builders who invested in a paint booth just so they can get
frames to customers faster when a 7/10 paint job will do just fine.

[Eric Norris]

Lucky to have four JB-painted bikes in my stable.  His work is absolutely amazing.  Holds up to microscopic inspection.

--Eric

campyo...@me.com

www.campyonly.com

www.wheelsnorth.org

[Joshua Kruck]

I used DuPont color codes when I did a custom color for my Riv. I
first found something that was the right color (for the life of me I
can't remember what it was), used the computer to look at the paint
chips vs. the real thing. Defiantly not full proof, but worked well
enough for my needs.

I ended up going with post office blue 2 from this page http://bit.ly/CjsGk

It was a bit hard for me to imagine the paint chip from the web page
on the bike but in the end it seemed to work out.

Finished bike with paint:
http://bit.ly/2o8iWy
http://bit.ly/48pmAU

As far as paint (powder coat in my case) quality... as others have
alluded to, you're not getting a show bike. Mine had a drip or two. My
custom color was free because of a screw up with the first batch of
Hillbornes so I'm not too worked up about it.

On Oct 13, 11:13 am, mushmash <mushm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Hello All,
>
> Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
> several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
> up with other riders.
>
> My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
> selects and communicates a custom bike color!
>
> I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
> want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
> bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
> bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
> have to do right for myself.
>
> Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.

> Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-12565...

[Nicholas Grieco]

Your choice of blue appears to be a great complement to the Sam
Hillborne graphics.

It would be interesting to see a picture of your SH, next to a
standard blue AHH, in unbiased lighting.

The August write-up detailing your 3 month experience and observations
on the Hillborne is very insightful- thanks for posting that.

On Oct 13, 8:51 pm, Joshua Kruck <joshua.kr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I used DuPont color codes when I did a custom color for my Riv. I
> first found something that was the right color (for the life of me I
> can't remember what it was), used the computer to look at the paint
> chips vs. the real thing. Defiantly not full proof, but worked well
> enough for my needs.
>

> I ended up going with post office blue 2 from this pagehttp://bit.ly/CjsGk

>
> It was a bit hard for me to imagine the paint chip from the web page
> on the bike but in the end it seemed to work out.
>

> Finished bike with paint:http://bit.ly/2o8iWyhttp://bit.ly/48pmAU

>
> As far as paint (powder coat in my case) quality... as others have
> alluded to, you're not getting a show bike. Mine had a drip or two. My
> custom color was free because of a screw up with the first batch of
> Hillbornes so I'm not too worked up about it.
>
> On Oct 13, 11:13 am, mushmash <mushm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  Hello All,
>
> > Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
> > several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
> > up with other riders.
>
> > My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
> > selects and communicates a custom bike color!
>
> > I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
> > want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
> > bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
> > bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
> > have to do right for myself.
>
> > Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.
> > Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-12565...
> > ).
>
> > How and where does a guy go to look at colors?  I look around me every
> > day, but how do you "identify" and communicate a color to the RBW
> > folks?
>
> > Thanks for any help on this project. It is a big commitment for me and

> > I don't want buyer's remorse just because the color isn't just so!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

An alternative approach (relinquish control):

When I ordered a custom Curt Goodrich, I told Curt: You pick the
color; I trust your taste and judgment, just don't paint it white or
gray.

I don't think he quite knew how to take that, because he kept asking
if I'd be ok with some shade of blue, or red, etc. But I really didn't
give a damn. I knew that it would look nice in any number of colors,
and that I wasn't going to lose sleep if it wasn't the perfect shade
of metallic puce. In the end he selected a color from his stock, which
had been used on another frame he painted, which I liked. I'm happy
with it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/3601726415/

On Oct 13, 11:13 am, mushmash <mushm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hello All,
>
> Compliments to all who post in this forum. I have taken part in
> several enthusiast forums in the past and hope to enjoy getting hooked
> up with other riders.
>
> My reason for posting: I really would like some direction on how one
> selects and communicates a custom bike color!
>
> I have placed my money on a new AHH, but have not told RBW whether I
> want the standard blue color(s) or custom. Now, I have ridden the same
> bike (1974 Fuji Finest) since high school. This is the first real new
> bike I will have had in all these years, so it is something that I
> have to do right for myself.
>
> Blue is good, but a rich earthy green is what really appeals to me.

> Like this bike identified as Blue Lemon Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eldukedegreaser/3516760819/in/pool-12565...

[XO-1.org Rough Riders]

I am pleased to have a Roadeo on order and need to let the Rivendell
folks know the Imron color. I am in the San Diego area. Can anyone
suggest somewhere I can walk into to see an Imron color book or chart?

The color I want is a very old school celeste, like Bianchis were 50
years ago, sort of a pale blue. The Bianchis of recent decades are
much darker and often much greener, I believe. They are obviously
Bianchis to riders of the past decade because of "that color." I want
the old style pale blue, because I like it better and also because I
don't want it to say "Bianchi!" to riders of the current era.

Can anyone advise?

Thanks!

Chris Kostman
http://www.XO-1.org

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-10-13 at 19:42 -0700, cyclotourist wrote:
> I think all the Salukis were painted here in the States? That's why
> they were offered with three colors

Initially, two colors: silver and what's-inside-the-baby's-diaper olive.
Neither appealed to me.

I'm not sure if some arrived painted and some were unpainted. But mine
definitely was. So, no charge for stripping, etc.

> to choose from and a minimal up-charge for custom.

Yes, I even forgot to mention, included in that price was the relocation
of the fork rack mounts from standard (proper for Mark's Rack) to the
location Gilles Berthoud preferred for his front rack, which is what I
used.

[Bruce]

What was the actual name of this color? Kind of a metallic olive/sage  green.

---

> I think all the Salukis were painted here in the States?  T

 what's-inside-the-baby's-diaper olive.

[J. Douglas Way]

Chris-

I used Imron #44403 to paint a Bianchi in the 50s/60s style. See the
pics on Jim's Current Classics web site:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc159-dougway0906.html

There's a link to an Imron color chart on Eric Norris' Campy Only web site:

http://www.campyonly.com/images/joebell/imron.pdf

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Doug Way
Boulder, CO

--
*******************************************************************
J. Douglas Way, Professor
Chemical Engineering Dept., Colorado School of Mines
1500 Illinois Street, Golden, CO 80401-7887 USA
Phone: 303-273-3519 Fax: 303-273-3730 Email: dw...@mines.edu
http://chemeng.mines.edu/faculty/dway/
*******************************************************************

[Frederick, Steve]

Nice red! I like that satiny finish--reminiscent of the finish on my first "real," road bike, a '93 Trek 1100...

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

[Paul D]

Hey, this is some great feedback on the painting process.

Does anyone know how to contact the El Duke Degreaser guy? I really
like the green Hilsen shown on Flickr.

[CycloFiend]

on 10/13/09 10:59 PM, XO-1.org Rough Riders at adventu...@gmail.com
wrote:

>
> I am pleased to have a Roadeo on order and need to let the Rivendell
> folks know the Imron color. I am in the San Diego area. Can anyone
> suggest somewhere I can walk into to see an Imron color book or chart?

I'd check with any auto or commercial spray painting facility (i.e. someone
with a paint booth). One of them should have an Imron swatch book.

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do
it."
Mahatma Gandhi

[reynoldslugs]

Doug -

Your Bianchi is da bomb, as they say in the vernacular. I would love
to use this color for the Roadeo I have on order, but can't find Imron
444403 in the book. Is it still available?

R.Lugs the 531st

On Oct 14, 5:42 am, "J. Douglas Way" <d...@mines.edu> wrote:
> Chris-
>
> I used Imron #44403 to paint a Bianchi in the 50s/60s style.  See the
> pics on Jim's Current Classics web site:
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc159-dougway0906.html
>

> There's a link to an Imroncolorchart on Eric Norris' Campy Only web site:

>
> http://www.campyonly.com/images/joebell/imron.pdf
>
> Hope this helps.  Good luck!
>
> Doug Way
> Boulder, CO
>
>
>
>
>
> XO-1.org Rough Riders wrote:
> > I am pleased to have a Roadeo on order and need to let the Rivendell

> > folks know the Imroncolor. I am in the San Diego area. Can anyone

> > suggest somewhere I can walk into to see an Imroncolorbook or chart?
>

> > ThecolorI want is a very old school celeste, like Bianchis were 50

> > years ago, sort of a pale blue. The Bianchis of recent decades are
> > much darker and often much greener, I believe. They are obviously

> > Bianchis to riders of the past decade because of "thatcolor." I want

> > the old style pale blue, because I like it better and also because I
> > don't want it to say "Bianchi!" to riders of the current era.
>
> > Can anyone advise?
>
> > Thanks!
>
> > Chris Kostman
> >http://www.XO-1.org
>
> --
> *******************************************************************
> J. Douglas Way, Professor
> Chemical Engineering Dept., Colorado School of Mines
> 1500 Illinois Street, Golden, CO  80401-7887  USA

> Phone: 303-273-3519  Fax:  303-273-3730  Email:  d...@mines.eduhttp://chemeng.mines.edu/faculty/dway/
> *******************************************************************- Hide quoted text -

[Doug Van Cleve]

Hey William,

I can certainly understand your disappointment.  I don't know if this will help you at all, but basically what you paid for was picking the color.  I am pretty sure your paint is as good as any of the stock frames, but it is YOUR color.  To get the color choice AND the primo job probably requires stepping up to the JB level paint.  It sounds like this could have been communicated better but I think you did get what you paid for.  In any case, it is a great looking bike and before long it will pick up some chips and scratches ;^)

Regards, Doug

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:33 AM, William F. House <willia...@gmail.com> wrote:

It was really easy. I knew I wanted a dark green. I went to our local
hardware store and found it. It's called Scholar Green and is part of
the Ralph Lauren line of interior paints. You can see it on this page:

http://www.ralphlaurenhome.com/rlhome/products/paint/items.asp?haid=48

I grabbed a sample card and simply mailed it to Keven who was helping
me with the AHH. I just took delivery a few days ago. Amazing bike.

One thing to note in your decision. I have pretty high standards I
guess and upon close inspection of the bike I found NUMEROUS flaws in
the custom paint job - including a hairline of the green on the cream
color headtube and imprecise highlights of the cream on the green
(like the little circles aren't all perfect). There are quite few
spots that really could've been much better, but you have to look to
find them. Is it a big deal to me. Not really. Do I think it should've
been better for shelling out an extra $200 for a nearly $4000 bike?
Absolutely. Rivendell's response has been "we'll check bikes more
closely." I've had other custom paint projects that were done by hand
(high-end guitars, furniture, artwork, etc.) and had come to expect a
very high degree of precision and flawless work. Overall I'm happy
with the bike, but in retrospect I'm not sure I'd have shelled out
that much money for the value of work I got. Your mileage may vary. I
LOVE the dark green though. Will be posting pics on my Flickr site
soon.

[Doug Van Cleve]

Hi Paul.

I think your error here is that the stock blue from the standard painter won't be flawless unless you just get that lucky frame.  "Flawless" bike paint is VERY expensive, probably as much as the bare steel frame/fork (maybe not, but close I bet).  I think you are really just paying to pick your color, not for a "better" paint job...

Regards, Doug

[William F. House]

I understand all that fully.....now. Again, I've tried to make this
clear in previous posts. My beef isn't the flaws or the price or
really anything other than the fact that Rivendell didn't explain this
to me as a novice. If they had taken the time to fully explicate what
I was paying for and exactly what I could look forward to (and not
look forward to) then I would have been much more satisfied.

As such their website states, "We do, though, guarantee that we put
every effort into making your Rivendell the best bike you've ever
seen, touched, heard about, or ridden." That's not exactly what I got.
I got an excellent bike, but it's not the best I've ever seen,
touched, heard about or ridden (with regard to paint).

Look at it this way. I could advertise the "best hamburger in the
entire world, hands down, no question." And maybe you ordered one and
wanted some custom element like a gourmet bun. So, you pay $50 more
for the bun. You get the burger and take a bite and find the bun
stale, would you feel the advertising had failed? Now, what if someone
told you, "listen Doug, you could've had a really fresh bun, but you
should've paid for the BEST chef to cook it," would you feel a little
misled? I would. How were you to know that if you paid much more money
for another chef you'd have gotten what you THOUGHT you were getting
in the first place? And then what if you came to me to express how you
felt and all I had to say was, "well, Doug, I'll make sure we're more
careful in the future."

Now I'm really hungry for a hamburger. ;-)

On Nov 5, 8:55 am, Doug Van Cleve <dvancl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey William,
>
> I can certainly understand your disappointment.  I don't know if this will
> help you at all, but basically what you paid for was picking the color.  I
> am pretty sure your paint is as good as any of the stock frames, but it is
> YOUR color.  To get the color choice AND the primo job probably requires
> stepping up to the JB level paint.  It sounds like this could have been
> communicated better but I think you did get what you paid for.  In any case,
> it is a great looking bike and before long it will pick up some chips and
> scratches ;^)
>
> Regards, Doug
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:33 AM, William F. House

> <williamfho...@gmail.com>wrote:

[Dustin Sharp]

Somehow I think that if we held all manufactures and retailers to the
literal words of their ad copy, a lot of them would be in deep trouble. But
we expect a certain amount of puffery and salesmanship even from the best
and most honest of them.

The claim made is clearly of this genre--Riv couldn't possibly mean it
literally since they'd have to know all the other bikes you've seen and
touched. And I don't think even Riv claims they are hands-down better than
something like a Toei or a Richard Sachs.

Given all this, it seems there is also a general burden on the consumer--all
consumers--to do a little due diligence. Even if some widget is touted as
being "super duper fantastic" at $100, it's not reasonable for me to expect
it to be as super duper fantastic as one costing $1000.

In the end, I think Riv is better than most in walking new folks through the
process, and hopefully they will become better after your feedback.

But I don't find their ad copy misleading. Except to the extent that the
phrase "misleading ad-copy" is redundant.

Anywho, hope you get out and ride that sucker! When it gets chipped up in a
couple of years, you can plunk down $1000 for Joe Bell perfection, if you
wish.

Cheers,

Dustin Sharp
San Diego, CA

> From: "William F. House" <willia...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:30:56 -0800 (PST)
> To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Looking for that String in The Custom Color Labyrinth
>
>

[William F. House]

Thanks for the informative words, Dustin. And yes, I'm out there
riding daily. Let me see if I get what you're saying:

Don't trust marketing.
The onus was with me to do due diligence.

I'll have to remember those. ;-) And I agree that Riv is really good
at walking folks through the process. Just not in the paint category.
Regardless of their marketing this should have been made clear to me,
but you may disagree with that as well. Let me see if I remember the
points again:

Lord loves a working man.
Don't trust whitey.
See a doctor and get rid of it.

Yep, got it! Now back to finishing my burger and studying for med
school.

[Dustin Sharp]

Best movie ever. To paraphrase: "You mean it's gonna stay this color!"

:)

> From: "William F. House" <willia...@gmail.com>

[William F. House]

Thanks. That made me laugh aloud.

On Nov 5, 10:24 am, Dustin Sharp <dsh...@runbox.com> wrote:
> Best movie ever. To paraphrase: "You mean it's gonna stay this color!"
>
> :)
>
>
>

[reynoldslugs]

This discussion about paint and ad copy is interesting. I am in the
process of sending a couple frames (including a new Roadeo) to
Rivendell's painter, Rick. I seem to remember that the Reader carried
an article about Rick, his painting, and the differences between a JB
paint job and the "stock" paint we get on the other framesets. I
looked through my old copies of the Reader, and couldn't find the
article.

Does anyone recall that article about Rick? If so, perhaps you could
tell the list which issue it was in. Thanks...

> > >>>>>> I don't want buyer's remorse just because the color isn't just so!- Hide quoted text -

[CycloFiend]

on 11/5/09 8:30 AM, William F. House at willia...@gmail.com wrote:
> I understand all that fully.....now. Again, I've tried to make this
> clear in previous posts. My beef isn't the flaws or the price or
> really anything other than the fact that Rivendell didn't explain this
> to me as a novice. If they had taken the time to fully explicate what
> I was paying for and exactly what I could look forward to (and not
> look forward to) then I would have been much more satisfied.
>
> As such their website states, "We do, though, guarantee that we put
> every effort into making your Rivendell the best bike you've ever
> seen, touched, heard about, or ridden." That's not exactly what I got.
> I got an excellent bike, but it's not the best I've ever seen,
> touched, heard about or ridden (with regard to paint).

Have you taken any photos of the parts which you feel are not acceptable? I
don't know if I missed that in this thread. The images we've all enjoyed
don't seem to have enough detail to exhibit flaws in the paint work.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I think it's helpful to see what
falls outside your definition of acceptable. That may help some folks to
understand the level of precision on a non-factory color.

On my Hilsen (factory color, Toyo-built), the masking isn't perfect on the
curved chevrons of the fork crown. The way I'm wired, it strikes me as
beautifully imperfect, the way that master weavers will throw in an
imperfect stitch. (And to divert entirely, I gouged the pristine paint on
the first new frame I ever bought and built up myself by slipping with a
headset press. Then I decided that at least I had put the first gank into
the bike.)

I think we all have tolerances for this kind of stuff, and we shouldn't have
to apologize for it or defend it to anyone.

- Jim

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Get your photos posted: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

[rperks]

you forgot:
The man IS trying to keep you down
and
Don't let the bird of paradise fly up your nose

Rob Perks

[CycloFiend]

on 11/5/09 9:49 AM, reynoldslugs at be...@perrylaw.net wrote:

>
> This discussion about paint and ad copy is interesting. I am in the
> process of sending a couple frames (including a new Roadeo) to
> Rivendell's painter, Rick. I seem to remember that the Reader carried
> an article about Rick, his painting, and the differences between a JB
> paint job and the "stock" paint we get on the other framesets. I
> looked through my old copies of the Reader, and couldn't find the
> article.
>
> Does anyone recall that article about Rick? If so, perhaps you could
> tell the list which issue it was in. Thanks...

"Rick stafani, the bike painter" appeared in RR#38. Don't have a scan of
that one.

And, since it may be the next question, the "Joe Bell Interview" appeared in
RR#22. Ditto on the scan.

No time today to scan. Happy to later in the week.

- J

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Workshops of the iBob's

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

"My nighttime attitude is anyone can run you down and get away with it.
That's why I don't even own a bike light or one of those godawful reflective
suits. Because if you've put yourself in a position where someone has to
see you in order for you to be safe...you've already blown it."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"

[William F. House]

I'll try to get some macros posted this weekend.

On Nov 5, 11:07 am, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Cyclofi...@earthlink.net
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com

[John Stoesser]

Personally I think the customer has a beef. A sub-par paint job on a $4,000
bike is unacceptable. A sub-par paint job on a $2,000 frame is unacceptable.
If you advertise a custom paint job, it should be in line with the quality
of the standard paint on the AHH. Anything less should sell for less than
the standard frame. I would hold them accountable. I'm glad you posted this
as I've been wrestling with a 69 or 71cm AHH (if they hadn't discontinued
the 68cm Atlantis that would be the consideration) or a custom Adventure
Cycle from Waterford. The price is pretty darn close. Since Rivendell uses
Waterford as a manufacturer (and I do admire Rivendell), I consider that an
endorsement of the Waterford quality.
This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.

-----Original Message-----
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:17 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch

Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[CycloFiend]

on 11/5/09 4:46 PM, John Stoesser at jsto...@comcast.net wrote:

> Personally I think the customer has a beef. A sub-par paint job on a $4,000
> bike is unacceptable. A sub-par paint job on a $2,000 frame is unacceptable.
> If you advertise a custom paint job, it should be in line with the quality
> of the standard paint on the AHH. Anything less should sell for less than
> the standard frame. I would hold them accountable. I'm glad you posted this
> as I've been wrestling with a 69 or 71cm AHH (if they hadn't discontinued
> the 68cm Atlantis that would be the consideration) or a custom Adventure
> Cycle from Waterford. The price is pretty darn close. Since Rivendell uses
> Waterford as a manufacturer (and I do admire Rivendell), I consider that an
> endorsement of the Waterford quality.
> This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.

Which is why I think it's fair to ask to see specific photos of the paint
job aspects that were of concern to him, which William said he'd try to
supply (in another thread, I think...). With that, I think it's reasonable
to judge the work on that specific bicycle. I'd have difficulty
extrapolating it much further.

I've got a few more detailed images of my Hilsen here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/sets/72157604497206482/

There have been few general complaints about paint quality with Rivendell
models over the years, the notable exception being on the Bleriot, which
generally lamented that the detail quality was not as good as the regular
two-toned Rivendells.

Also, I don't think it's _advertised_ as a "custom" paint job. To wit:

http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-650

"Color: The signature A.H.H. color is a medium dark old blue with a tiny bit
of sparkle that's visible only in bright sun. The head tube and lug
highlights are cream, as they are with all of our bikes.
"What if I want another color?" You can probably get it, but it'll cost you
$300 more. That's what it costs us. It's possible that we'll change colors
on future productions, but it will always be some shade of blue, and the
only other blue that's in the running is a really pretty one, too. Lighter
and with some grey, but really good-looking."

The only other point I'll belabor is that if anyone does have a beef with a
Rivendell product or service, the first call is to them, and as I said in a
different post, asking specifically for what would set it right. This
group is not the means for communicating with Rivendell Bicycle Works on a
customer service issue.

- Jim

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com

Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

[james black]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser <jsto...@comcast.net> wrote:
> This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.

It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint
job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on
hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you
see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you?

Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am
sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post,
criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential
to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that
was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate
for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for
damaging Rivendell's reputation.

James Black
Los Angeles, CA

[Esteban]

FWIW regarding Riv paint - This looks rather nice:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/3590669671/sizes/l/


On Nov 5, 7:40 pm, james black <chocot...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Angus]

I've had two Waterford build Rivendells, a Joe Stark built and Joe
Bell painted Rivendell, two Toyo built Rivendells (one painted, one
clear powder coated).

The only "perfect" paint job was the Joe Bell one...and I chipped the
top tube paint assembling the bike.

I will probably have one of the frames repainted in the near future
and I'll have the $300 paint job from their local painter. Just need
to choose a color.

Angus

On Nov 5, 9:40 pm, james black <chocot...@gmail.com> wrote:

[cyclotourist]

FWIW, W'Ford has a reputation for soft paint that is easily knicked/scratched.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye, scientist guy

[cyclotourist]

If I just had an extra $3,726 lying around...

[William F. House]

Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, but I've
snapped a few tonight with the bike under the lights in our kitchen.
These would be much better outside in the sunlight, but I believe they
give an idea of what I'm talking about. I've crudely circled the flaws
or sloppiness in red via Photoshop. I'm linking the original size
photos, so if you want a smaller version to orient yourself to the
frame area you can simple select the "Large" size at the top.

The issues as I see them include very imprecise lines, white paint
droplets on green, and very thin coats of cream white where green
shows through. These issues are present throughout the bike, but these
are the main areas and the only ones I took time to document.
Altogether there are about a dozen or so spots that I would term a
flaw. What you might term a flaw or what Rivendell might term a flaw
may differ entirely.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079744472/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4078987247/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079745532/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079746070/sizes/o/

[William F. House]

Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."

Here's the picture in question again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/

[rob markwardt]

You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
know if I could even see it! However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
painting my 72 PX-10. I think they brought in chimps in to paint
those things...adds character!!!

[cyclotourist]

I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I have).  
This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color. 

DE

[William F. House]

Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
sure are a lot of little flaws.

Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)

On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
> $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I

> have)<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/335429650/sizes/o/>.

[james black]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 20:22, William F. House <willia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, but I've
> snapped a few tonight with the bike under the lights in our kitchen.

Thanks for the pics. My reaction is that I probably would not have
thought to complain had I received a bike from Rivendell with paint
like that (still so much better than the crude lug outlining on my old
Nishikis!), but it seems not unreasonable that you would have had
higher expectations and be thus disappointed.

But I'm not sure what I would expect Rivendell to do in this case.
Would I expect them to reject the bike when they receive it from the
painter and inspect it? Probably not, it's still better than most
paint jobs. This is an awkward customer service issue for Rivendell.

James Black

[Rene Valbuena]

Please believe me that I mean well when I say this: I think you will not be
totally happy with that bike so I suggest that you sell it and get another
one.

When I got my Rivendell Wilbury three years ago, I also had my choice of
color. I can't remember though if I was charged extra for that. I think I
was. In any case, I was also not totally happy. The masking details on the
super fancy lugs leave much to be desired. But at a distance of five feet,
the bike was stunning. I regrettably sold that bike to pay off an emergency
plumbing problem in the house. I am sure you can find a lesser compelling
reason to sell yours.

All the best,

Rene

-----Original Message-----
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:46 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[rcnute]

My favorite Rivs to look at are the battle-scarred ones. :)

[William F. House]

Rene,

I mean well when I say this too: there's NO WAY I will sell this bike.
This bike will eventually be passed on to a grandchild (many, many
years from now). As I've said in a number of previous responses in
this and other threads, I still love the bike. Thanks again for the
advice, but this bike will never leave my care, flaws or not. ;-)

- Will

[Rene Valbuena]

That's good. I thought, for a while there, you are like Adrian Monk who
cannot live when some things are not in order or right. Or you might just be
role playing your future namesake "Dr. House" -- throwing us puzzles to get
the right diagnosis or just having fun at;-)

[Bruce]

What your pictures show is common to other RBW bikes (including mine) with standard paint jobs (you have a standard job, but a custom color). Love your bike btw. What gears ratio(s) are you using?

This thread is getting a bit worn out though. Most people with opinions have weighed in.

---

From: William F. House <willia...@gmail.com>

To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 10:22:28 PM

Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[William F. House]

Sounds like it's a hit or miss sort of thing then. You're saying this
is common and yet other opinions (via posts here and emails to me)
indicate that they have cheaper Rivs with much better paint jobs.

I'm not even sure on the gear ratio. Keven was the original guy I was
working with (before he left on paternity leave) and I told him I
wanted a single speed, so he mentioned using either a "42 or 44 tooth
single ring and 19-21-23 cogs." All I know is that it rides incredibly
well and eats up flats and hills and everything here in Boulder.

On Nov 6, 3:03 am, Bruce <fullylug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What your pictures show is common to other RBW bikes (including mine) with standard paint jobs (you have a standard job, but a custom color). Love your bike btw. What gears ratio(s) are you using?
>
> This thread is getting a bit worn out though. Most people with opinions have weighed in.
>
> ________________________________

> From: William F. House <williamfho...@gmail.com>

[Mike]

I kept meaning to weigh-in on this thread but I was following it from
work and could not get my thoughts in order. Now I'm at home and it's
6:15 and I don't think they'll be much better organized but here we
go...

My first Rivendell was a Rambouillet that I purchased in 2007. Within
a month of owning it I knocked it over and dinged the TT (http://
www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/789325017/in/set-72157613195345103/).
That hurt. That hurt bad. And it had nothing to do with Rivendell per
se but it saved me the problem of perseverating on any other
imperfections with the bike. Soon enough I forgot about the ding.

In fall of 2008 I got a Hilsen. I love my Hilsen but like others have
mentioned, the paint seems to chip easily. It makes me a little more
conscious of where and how I place the bike. Also, removing the rear
wheel is a pain. I'm not sure what the story is with that. I've posted
about it before. But it seems ridiculous that this "flaw" or whatever
you want to call it wasn't something dealt with prior to production.
Although, so far I've only had one flat on the bike and that was on
the front, in 90 degree heat, on day 2 of a 600k brevet. Had it been
the rear... it would have been a pain, especially given my fatigue.

Not long after I first go my Hilsen together I was out for a ride on
my Rambouillet and the frame broke (http://www.flickr.com/photos/
41335973@N00/sets/72157609818335769/). I was bummed but Grant/
Rivendell responded immediately. As soon as I got the frame sent to
them it was repaired, repainted and returned to me (http://
www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/3248961252/in/set-72157613195345103/).
It looks great to me and I don't notice any imperfections. After
dinging it (the ding was smoothed over during the repaint) and
breaking the frame I could hardly notice or worry about any
imperfections in the paint. Hell, not long after getting the bike back
on the road I was at Stumptown after a ride it got knocked over by an
employee. He was very apologetic. There were no dents, dings or
scratches other than to my saddle. I tried to get worked up and
couldn't. That bike has been through so much I'm just happy to have it
to ride. As long as it rolls straight and doesn't shimmy I'm fine with
it.

Rivendell and their products are not perfect or without flaws. Not by
a long shot. But I'd much rather deal with them than the majority of
bike manufacturers or even custom builders. I was at the Oregon
Handbuilt Bike Show this past weekend. There was good stuff there but
still, I'm sticking with Rivendell. Even with their quirks, they're on
top of what they're doing, ahead of the game and are very sincere. I
have never felt ripped off or like they've deceived me, even the first
time I removed the rear wheel from my Hilsen and was like WTF?!?
(Please don't respond with instructions on how to remove a wheel).

But if you're really dissatisfied with what they sold you, give them a
call and talk to them. I'm sure they're reasonable and will listen to
you. I know Grant looks in on this thread from time to time and am
kind of surprised he hasn't chimed in yet.

Surprisingly, the bike that I own that takes the most abuse seems
indestructable. I have a Surly CC that I commute on daily. It's been
ridden extensively in rain and even snow. I lock it up outside in the
rain sometimes. I've knocked it over multiple times. I've carelessly
leaned it up against rocks and trees. The only blemish in the paint is
from brake cable rub. Go figure.

--mike

[Mike]

The link showing the broken Rambouillet did not come through on that
post. Here it is again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/sets/72157609818335769/

[Eric Norris]

Reminds me of Richard Sachs' slogan: "Imperfection is perfection"

―Eric Norris
Sent via iPhone

[William F. House]

Thanks for all the comments. This will likely be my last post in
summary.

I'm VERY happy with my AHH. The paint has flaws. I spoke to the guy at
Riv who inspected the bike before shipping it and he elected to do
nothing other than apologize for the sloppy work and promise to review
bikes more closely in the future. I didn't ask Rivendell to do
anything and they didn't offer to. That's fine.

All in all the only reason I brought any of this up was to see if it
might be normative. Seems that it can be from what several have said
here or in emails. If I look really closely I see the flaws. I don't
plan on spending any time looking closely. I plan on spending the time
riding the bike.

That's all. Thanks guys.

- Will

[Jon Grant]

This thread is rather well commented upon, but I do think I have something new to add.

My bona fides: In my house and a neighbor’s house we have a Joe Bell-painted Rivendell custom, two blue Rambouillets, and two Blériots. I researched custom bikes obsessively (my wife’s word) for most of a year before I committed to the Riv. Also, I’ve been riding lugged steel bikes of various nationalities for 35 years.

My assessment of the paint on MY bicycles, in quality (and price) order: The Joe Bell paint reminds me of high-level show cars. When I got it, I spent a week staring at it. Couldn’t find a single flaw, and still can’t. The Japanese, Toyo-built Rambouillets are very, very good. I’d be pleasantly surprised to see such good paint on the average bike shop bike. The Taiwanese Blériots are still nice, but to be generous, show some evidence of rushed handiwork in the brazing and the paint if you study closely. I looked at them and thought “quota.” The high-end Raleighs and Peugeots I owned 30 years ago would absolutely have been rejected by Blériot quality control; blobs of brazing brass, obvious file marks, casual lug lining, uneven paint, even from five feet.

My opinion of your paint, based on your photos: not as precise as our Rambouillets, but better than our Blériots. Really very nice, but showing some evidence of hand painting (which some artists might consider “a feature” ;-D ). But I will not presume to tell you whether or not you should find it adequate.

My solutions: The old bikes I just rode. I noticed the flaws immediately, but they were always better bikes than I’d had before, so it was okay. (In 1977 I saw a Bruce Gordon in a Kansas City bike shop, and my understanding deepened considerably — but that’s another story.) The custom and the Rams we just ride. The Blériot? I bought a tube of gold touch-up paint at an auto parts store. (It’s like a paint-filled ball-point pen.) I lined all the lugs with it. My neighbor liked it so much he asked me to line his Blériot lugs, too, so I did. Grant Petersen says you should do something to make your bike your own, unlike anyone else’s. Why not outline your own lugs?

--
Jon “Papa” Grant
Austin, Texas

[Doug Van Cleve]

Howdy folks.

I personally think fancy paint jobs on production frames being painted by production painters may not be the best thing. I see that all of these issues are with lug fill/lining.  That stuff is truly difficult and time consuming from what I've seen and read.  I suspect that only the masters (JB, Brian Baylis, Keith Anderson and a few others) nail it every time.  this bike may be a bit worse than average for a production frame, but it isn't grossly different from the stuff I've seen on other production RBW bikes.  Also, let's remember that this is a $4000 bicycle, not a $4000 frame.  Big difference IMHO...

Regards, Doug

[CycloFiend]

William -

Thanks for posting the images so quickly.

The macro images are always a little odd to see - definitely more than my
ability to discern with my glasses on. There are times when I've _thought_ I
had my bike gorgeously clean, only to notice a big wad of mud in a gap when
I looked at the photos.

I'm glad you've decided not to sell the bike - hopefully, your
disappointment in that aspect will soften with time. Again, thanks for
taking the time to share the photos.

- Jim

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

"The bike between her legs was like some hyper-evolved alien tail she'd
somehow extruded, as though over patient centuries; a sweet and intricate
bone-machine, grown Lexan-armored tires, near-frictionless bearings, and gas
filled shocks."

William Gibson - "Virtual Light"

[BPu...@aol.com]

   I'm a little late to this thread. After looking at William's photo's I, again, got both mad and almost had to laugh. The imperfections on his Hilsen are very similar to my custom painted Hilsen. I've said in earlier posts that I wasn't expecting a JB paint job but I was expecting it to be at least as good as my "off the rack" Rambouillet.

   I've had the bike for about 3 years, ride it a lot, and still get pissed every time I clean it. I've come to the conclusion that the only way I'll resolve this is to spring for a new paint job.

   Will this effect my future bike purchases from Riv? It already has. I love the Roadeo but wasn't crazy about the standard paint choices. When I added the price of the frame and a JB paint job, I decided to look elsewhere.

Bill (Rambouillet, Quickbeam, Hilsen)

Louisville, Ky

 

Hey, it just hit me! Maybe it's just "Homer owned by William/Bill" issue.

[reynoldslugs]

Perfection is imperfection. One of my favorite frames is a Jack
Taylor, one of the very last ones built by Norman. The lug lining is
pretty quavery; Michael Lawrence told me, or wrote, that the "quavery"
lining represents Norman's efforts at freehand lug lining, when he was
well into his 80's. There are a few errant drips and drabs across
the head tube, but I feel fortunate to have something from Norman's
hand.

I know the Rivendell situation is different.

BTW, the Jack Taylor is more fun to ride since I put Rolly Polly's on
it.

On Nov 6, 9:15 am, BPus...@aol.com wrote:
> I'm a little late to this thread. After looking at William's  photo's I,
> again, got both mad and almost had to laugh. The imperfections on his  Hilsen
> are very similar to my custom painted Hilsen. I've said in earlier posts  
> that I wasn't expecting a JB paint job but I was expecting it to be at least
> as  good as my "off the rack" Rambouillet.
>    I've had the bike for about 3 years, ride it a lot, and still  get
> pissed every time I clean it. I've come to the conclusion that the only  way I'll
> resolve this is to spring for a new paint job.
>    Will this effect my future bike purchases from Riv? It already  has. I
> love the Roadeo but wasn't crazy about the standard paint choices. When I  
> added the price of the frame and a JB paint job, I decided to look  elsewhere.
> Bill (Rambouillet, Quickbeam, Hilsen)
> Louisville, Ky
>
> Hey, it just hit me! Maybe it's just "Homer owned by William/Bill"  issue.
>
> In a message dated 11/6/2009 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>

[GeorgeS]

I just got back a bike I had painted by Joe Bell. I sent it to him in
February and got it back in October. It cost way more than the
amounts being mentioned for show quality paint. A special color which
is extra but no chrome. I had to draw the line somewhere. The bike
is stunning. Not even in the same ball park of the bike when it was
brand new. It was not a bike I ride all the time so the time was not
a major problem for me. And the final cost was not a surprise. Joe
is very organized and once you fill out the order form and add up the
extras (refinishing head badge, contrasting panels, decals, etc.), you
know what it is going to cost. Gulp. It was a lot, but not a penny
more than I had agreed to spend. That said, I would not recommend
this kind of paint job for any bike that one does not have a very
special feeling for. I have a Rambouillet that I love and that I ride
all the time. I'm perfectly satisfied with the stock paint job (blue)
and when the time comes for refinishing, I'm sure I'll send it back to
Rivendell or someone they recommend. I don't need every bike I use to
look like a show piece.
GeorgeS

On Oct 13, 1:37 pm, Ken Yokanovich <reflector.collec...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The ability to pick a color for a small upcharge is REALLY a nice
> option.
>
> As far as paint quality is concerned... I believe that the production
> frames are coming in to Rivendell painted already.  The "extra" $200
> to choose a custom color is amazingly inexpensive.  I suspect that
> Rivendell doesn't make ANY money on that, considering the cost to have
> the bicycle stripped and re-painted.  I suspect the quality is "good
> enough" for a rider.... Probably as good of a paint job as one would
> get as a "factory paint." Custom paint it is not.
>
> I'm extremely picky when it comes to paint quality too, but I also
> understand how difficult a good paint job is to do well.  Having
> worked in a shop for about 15 years, I've seen LOTS of bicycles.
> Almost all of them have flaws somewhere in the paint.  Obviously the
> bicycle is made up of many small tubes with lots of inside/outside
> surfaces and ample opportunity for over/under-spray.
>
> If you want show-quality paint, save up for the Joe Bell, or skip the
> $200 extra and have the frame sent directly to Joe Bell.  I suspect
> you'll wait another 6 months or so and probably expect to pay close to
> an additional $500 for paint work.  For a more durable option, you
> could go with custom powdercoat through Spectrum, but I believe a one-
> color job will run you $400 or so.
>
> Find a color you like somewhere as a color chip, paint book, color of
> car. Make note of year, make, model and the paint code can be looked
> up.  Give your painter some liberty because not every color can be
> matched 100%.  It's a bike after all, yer' spose to ride 'em, when you
> do, they get scratched and dirty anyhow.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

After seeing the photos, I can say I'd probably be disappointed if I
paid extra for that, too! But I think you have the right attitude:
move on, and ride!

As others have suggested, over time your feelings about it may change.
Conceivably, the imperfections could become points of unique
identification with your trusty steed, or of nostalgia for all the fun
times you had riding it as a young man. (of course, you will most
likely paint it again someday)

From a business and customer service standpoint, I'm surprised that
RBW continues to offer the repaint option. It must not make them much/
any money, and it's got to be a huge time-suck making the arrangements
and dealing with customer service issues. I was the middle-man on some
low-end powdercoating once or twice and high-end powdercoating once.
Every time, it was nerve-wracking to communicate the customer's
desires to the powdercoater, and it certainly wasn't profitable for my
business. One time, the powdercoater's initial price estimate was way
low (the reasons for the discrepancy were understandable, but it was
still a shock), and being powdercoat rather than paint, the color-
match to the DuPont chip wasn't great. So now I had a frame that was
the wrong color, and way more expensive than quoted. I did this mostly
as a favor to a good customer, and my margin on the transaction was
near zero. My customer was very understanding, and while he initially
seemed disappointed with the color, he told me later that it was
growing on him. Nonetheless, it was a stressful situation for me, and
I told myself that I wasn't going to be a middle-man on paint/powder
anymore.




On Nov 5, 11:46 pm, "William F. House" <williamfho...@gmail.com>