[RBW] 650B dead or alive?
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Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
May 12, 2010, 1:33:34 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
discussion of its own.
Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Kogswell
seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, and Rawland's new models have
been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
brakes, 650B will still be an option).
To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. There are some
small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.
I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
availability. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
just in case.
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into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
discussion of its own.
Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Kogswell
seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, and Rawland's new models have
been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
brakes, 650B will still be an option).
To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. There are some
small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.
I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
availability. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
just in case.
--
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rcnute
May 12, 2010, 2:02:30 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
Scary! :) I wonder what the builders think/know?
Ryan
On May 11, 10:33 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Ryan
On May 11, 10:33 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Ken Mattina
May 12, 2010, 6:37:43 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Jim that it's a good idea to stockpile 650b rims and tires in my basement.
I think that there's still new 650b bikes being introduced. Don't forget about the Velo Orange Polyvalent. Also I believe that the Longleaf P/R prototype will be arriving soon.
Ken
Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?
-- Ray Davies
franklyn
May 12, 2010, 7:03:38 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
Soma does have at least one Mt bike model and its mixte uses 650b as
an option for smaller sizes. Soma is also introducing the 650b version
of its Express tires. Among enthusiasts, anecdotally I have heard
several getting a 650b custom, so 650b has gained some momentum in the
custom world.
I don't really think stockpiling now is necessary. Velocity seems to
be committed to continue to supply Synergy in that size (not to
mention the economical Twin Hollow), and now VO has one 650b rim at a
pretty affordable price.
Franklyn
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
an option for smaller sizes. Soma is also introducing the 650b version
of its Express tires. Among enthusiasts, anecdotally I have heard
several getting a 650b custom, so 650b has gained some momentum in the
custom world.
I don't really think stockpiling now is necessary. Velocity seems to
be committed to continue to supply Synergy in that size (not to
mention the economical Twin Hollow), and now VO has one 650b rim at a
pretty affordable price.
Franklyn
> > .
Steve Palincsar
May 12, 2010, 7:24:16 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
In the world of computers, we call this FUD: the spreading of Fear,
Uncertainty and Doubt.
Uncertainty and Doubt.
Tim McNamara
May 12, 2010, 8:42:43 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
It's a practical look at what the 650B market is today. It's a niche
and a darned tiny one at that. There are way more "29ers" out there,
a tire size that has had much faster acceptance and deeper market
penetration than the 650B resurgence sparked by Rivendell and Jan
Heine. Grant's and Jan's own markets are small, maybe 30,000 people
total (and with a lot of overlap), and only a fraction of those folks
have gone with 650B. A few non-Grant/non-Jan have gone with 650B
too. Google around on the web for 650B and it's pretty clear it hit
a peak over a year ago and has tailed off in terms of interest.
650B is a nice tire size, very useful for some applications, but has
failed to achieve the kind of critical mass necessary to be anything
more than a tiny niche. Now, as someone else has pointed out, that
may work fine for current users over the next decade or so thanks to
the Internet making niche markets much more viable than they used to
be. This is a good thing. But until Trek or Cannondale take on
650B- which they frankly aren't going to do without a compelling
reason- it's going to be a marginal place in the market. With $70
tires, making it also a niche populated only by the dedicated and
affluent.
Steve Palincsar
May 12, 2010, 8:54:09 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> that
> may work fine for current users
> over the next decade or so
> thanks to
> the Internet making niche markets much more viable than they used to
> be. This is a good thing.
> But until Trek or Cannondale take on
> 650B- which they frankly aren't going to do without a compelling
> reason- it's going to be a marginal place in the market
> . With $70
> tires, making it also a niche populated only by the dedicated and
> affluent.
in the past few years. Your Pro3Race 23mm is a $60 tire these days, as
is the Hetre or the Pari Moto. You don't have to be all that affluent
to afford $60. It is, after all, not much more than 4 movie tickets,
less if you go to the concession stand.
Your point: 650B is not mass market. I agree. Jim's point is more like
"tremble in your boots, because its future is precarious" and that is
precisely FUD in a nutshell, containing fear, uncertainty and doubt.
We see FUD in the bicycling business all the time. A recent example:
now that Shimano's going to 10 spd on its MTB groups, some folks are
saying you'd better stockpile 9 spd cassettes, because 9 is now
officially obsolete. Some folks on the forums started beating the drum
about Campagnolo 10 as soon as the first 11 speed Campy groups came out.
And all you fans of mechanical shifting had better tremble in your
booties, too, because electric shifting is here and you know what that
means.
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 9:04:29 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
MTB 650B appears to be stable. I am somewhat concerned about 650B
road rim and tire availability. Fortunately, both items store well.
I am not concerned to the point where I will buy any old 650B rim set
or tire to hoard in a storage bin. But if I see a top quality
component on eBay, a bicycle on line outlet, or (less likely) a
bicycle shop, it makes sense to buy now rather than wait to see what
may be coming down the road.
On May 12, 12:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
road rim and tire availability. Fortunately, both items store well.
I am not concerned to the point where I will buy any old 650B rim set
or tire to hoard in a storage bin. But if I see a top quality
component on eBay, a bicycle on line outlet, or (less likely) a
bicycle shop, it makes sense to buy now rather than wait to see what
may be coming down the road.
On May 12, 12:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
May 12, 2010, 9:24:38 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
If I was engaging in FUD, I would suggest stockpiling far more than a
couple pairs of tires. I don't think there's any reason not to get a
650B bike. I like 650B and am committed to selling 650B bikes. I'm
probably getting a 650B bike for my wife. But I think that the 650B
market is small enough that there is a better than average chance of
volatility.
In the bike business, there are very few big players. It's nice that
Velocity makes 650B rims, but Velocity isn't exactly a blue chip
corporation on which to depend for long-term stability. They are a
small outfit, and 650B rims are a small part of what they do. Even now
Velocity USA is out of stock on any given listed rim (650B or
otherwise) more often than not. Will they still be "committed" to 650B
in five years if the number of 650B bikes being sold shows signs of
decline? I wouldn't bet on it. That's why I think it makes sense to
squirrel away a pair of rims, just in case. If I'm wrong, you'll still
probably need the rims someday.
couple pairs of tires. I don't think there's any reason not to get a
650B bike. I like 650B and am committed to selling 650B bikes. I'm
probably getting a 650B bike for my wife. But I think that the 650B
market is small enough that there is a better than average chance of
volatility.
In the bike business, there are very few big players. It's nice that
Velocity makes 650B rims, but Velocity isn't exactly a blue chip
corporation on which to depend for long-term stability. They are a
small outfit, and 650B rims are a small part of what they do. Even now
Velocity USA is out of stock on any given listed rim (650B or
otherwise) more often than not. Will they still be "committed" to 650B
in five years if the number of 650B bikes being sold shows signs of
decline? I wouldn't bet on it. That's why I think it makes sense to
squirrel away a pair of rims, just in case. If I'm wrong, you'll still
probably need the rims someday.
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 9:45:04 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
What would really help would be one or a group of the custom 650B
builders commissioning a run of quality rims much as Pacenti did with
the Pari-Motos. Jan Heine is doing this. It would be nice if there
were a few alternatives as well.
On May 12, 8:24 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
builders commissioning a run of quality rims much as Pacenti did with
the Pari-Motos. Jan Heine is doing this. It would be nice if there
were a few alternatives as well.
On May 12, 8:24 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
rswa...@me.com
May 12, 2010, 9:47:13 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I always stockpile parts I like. 650B is no exception. I used to hoard my favorite 26" rims and tires, too. Grant said somewhere a while back: "if you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply because it will soon be discontinued or "improved"
Ryan
Ryan
David Faller
May 12, 2010, 9:52:37 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
Bruce
May 12, 2010, 9:59:54 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
Bruce
May 12, 2010, 10:02:55 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Wish I had gotten a spare original equipment wheel set for my 26" Rambouillet. Like the Romulus wheels now on closeout at RBW, only smaller. :(
From: "rswa...@me.com" <rswa...@me.com>
To: "rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:47:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
I always stockpile parts I like. 650B is no exception. I used to hoard my favorite 26" rims and tires, too. Grant said somewhere a while back: "if you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply because it will soon be discontinued or "improved"
Ryan
David Faller
May 12, 2010, 10:13:16 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get
improved out of existence, that's all...
James Valiensi
May 12, 2010, 10:22:16 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Hey,
For rim brakes Velocity has at least two models out, Grand Bois has one, and VeloOrange has their version as well.
Grand Bois started getting this stuff made to support their 650B Clients in Japan.
I think 650B is here for a long while.
If you want more choices in the market, buy more 650B bikes and get your riding buddies on one too, as soon as Trek sees that they are loosing sales to 650B makers they have one model out, (It will be a carbon fiber frame with ugliest graphics/colors imaginable).
When the mainstream are on their 650B's I'll be looking for 700D...
Cheers!
James Valiensi, PE
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796
For rim brakes Velocity has at least two models out, Grand Bois has one, and VeloOrange has their version as well.
Grand Bois started getting this stuff made to support their 650B Clients in Japan.
I think 650B is here for a long while.
If you want more choices in the market, buy more 650B bikes and get your riding buddies on one too, as soon as Trek sees that they are loosing sales to 650B makers they have one model out, (It will be a carbon fiber frame with ugliest graphics/colors imaginable).
When the mainstream are on their 650B's I'll be looking for 700D...
Cheers!
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796
Esteban
May 12, 2010, 10:23:25 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
Jim has a point. And a good view from a bike shop. At the same time,
650B stuff has long been available from abroad (Japan seems to have a
steady market, and France used to...). The Internets make scouring
the globe for a reliable supplier much easier. I imagine that someone
in the world would step in with a steady stream of 650B if things hit
the fan.
This being said, at the SDCBS, there was quite a lot of 650B road
content...
Esteban
San Diego, Calif.
On May 12, 7:13 am, David Faller <dfal...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get
> improved out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* David Faller <dfal...@charter.net>
> > *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
650B stuff has long been available from abroad (Japan seems to have a
steady market, and France used to...). The Internets make scouring
the globe for a reliable supplier much easier. I imagine that someone
in the world would step in with a steady stream of 650B if things hit
the fan.
This being said, at the SDCBS, there was quite a lot of 650B road
content...
Esteban
San Diego, Calif.
On May 12, 7:13 am, David Faller <dfal...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get
> improved out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>
> > *From:* David Faller <dfal...@charter.net>
> > *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
>
> > Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>
> > --
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>
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> > Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
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>
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Bruce
May 12, 2010, 10:29:37 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I have a 700D wheel set for the Saluki. Use it in the winter for training (w/590 tires. 587s are like hen's teeth). Nice to know your 650B bike has some flexibility.
From: James Valiensi <vali...@mac.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 9:22:16 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
From: James Valiensi <vali...@mac.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 9:22:16 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
When the mainstream are on their 650B's I'll be looking for 700D...
Cheers!
jinxed
May 12, 2010, 11:11:37 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
Although I had two 650b bikes that are now gone, I certainly was not
fearful of parts availability. But to be certain I never expected rims
and tires to be WIDELY available. I expected it to be a lesser 650c.
Unless your local bike shop specializes in tri bikes, they might have
a pair of tubes, and possibly a dusty tire. Having worked in bike
shops on and off for the last 15 years, it was always an item we
ordered in. Sometimes we had to search 3-4 suppliers before we found
what the customer wanted. I think the niche market is just that. It's
there, but more work is needed to attain entry and generally you pay
for the privilege.
The funny thing is, the bikes that use 650b are in comparison just as,
if not more exclusive. Let's hope they keep making the frames!
Jut random thoughts. Nothing more.
All that said...I have a set of 650b wheels/tires with no home! Chris
King / Dyad / Maxy Fasty. If you need to pile your stock let me know.
fearful of parts availability. But to be certain I never expected rims
and tires to be WIDELY available. I expected it to be a lesser 650c.
Unless your local bike shop specializes in tri bikes, they might have
a pair of tubes, and possibly a dusty tire. Having worked in bike
shops on and off for the last 15 years, it was always an item we
ordered in. Sometimes we had to search 3-4 suppliers before we found
what the customer wanted. I think the niche market is just that. It's
there, but more work is needed to attain entry and generally you pay
for the privilege.
The funny thing is, the bikes that use 650b are in comparison just as,
if not more exclusive. Let's hope they keep making the frames!
Jut random thoughts. Nothing more.
All that said...I have a set of 650b wheels/tires with no home! Chris
King / Dyad / Maxy Fasty. If you need to pile your stock let me know.
Bill Connell
May 12, 2010, 11:24:31 AM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
But the basic point is valid, no matter the size. Wasn't there some
note not that long ago that the molds for the Roly-Poly tires was
wearing out and there was a question whether to replace it? Even in a
popular size, parts can be discontinued for various reasons, and it's
not often that a good product is resurrected once the original
manufacturer stops production.
I don't see Jim's post as FUD at all. It's pretty obvious that the
small number of companies who championed 650b 3-4 years ago no longer
have it as a top priority. That's fine, and it doesn't mean that the
size is abandoned, just maybe that it has peaked for the size of the
niche that it has. It seems well-enough established now that many
custom framebuilders would happily build one, even if none of the
mainstream players decide to join in.
Bill
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM, David Faller <dfa...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get improved
> out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
> Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
>
> Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
note not that long ago that the molds for the Roly-Poly tires was
wearing out and there was a question whether to replace it? Even in a
popular size, parts can be discontinued for various reasons, and it's
not often that a good product is resurrected once the original
manufacturer stops production.
I don't see Jim's post as FUD at all. It's pretty obvious that the
small number of companies who championed 650b 3-4 years ago no longer
have it as a top priority. That's fine, and it doesn't mean that the
size is abandoned, just maybe that it has peaked for the size of the
niche that it has. It seems well-enough established now that many
custom framebuilders would happily build one, even if none of the
mainstream players decide to join in.
Bill
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM, David Faller <dfa...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get improved
> out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
> Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
>
> Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>
--
St. Paul, MN
John McMurry
May 12, 2010, 11:53:08 AM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
> least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
> Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models,
Not true: Betty Foys’ and Yves Gomez’ are 650b specific. Also, (and I
know Jim didn't say this) just because Rivendell tends to size the
wheel to the size of the frame on other models doesn't mean Rivendell
is losing interest in any particular wheel size.
> Kogswell
> seems to be on an indefinite hiatus,
That has little to do with 650b. As I understand it, Longleaf Cycles
plans to pickup that torch.
> and Rawland's new models have
> been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
> brakes, 650B will still be an option).
As far as I know and as advertised on their website, Rawland's frames
are 650b specific. Showing the frame's versatility with 622 and 559mm
wheelsets at venues may be just that.
> To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
> 27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
> rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
> and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
> since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader.
Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b.
> There are some
> small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
> now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
> into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
> see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
> again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.
Do small market products have to go mainstream or corporate in order
to maintain?
> I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
> 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
> of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
> gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
> will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
> availability.
It appears that some folks feel that for a product to continue to be
produced, that it must have exponential sales numbers from year to
year. While my economics classes are far, far behind me; I just don’t
see that as a necessity.
> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
> just in case.
That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear.
John McMurry
Burlington, VT
wrote:
> The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> discussion of its own.
It can be interesting to try to predict the future.
> into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> discussion of its own.
> Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
> least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
> Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models,
know Jim didn't say this) just because Rivendell tends to size the
wheel to the size of the frame on other models doesn't mean Rivendell
is losing interest in any particular wheel size.
> Kogswell
> seems to be on an indefinite hiatus,
plans to pickup that torch.
> and Rawland's new models have
> been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
> brakes, 650B will still be an option).
are 650b specific. Showing the frame's versatility with 622 and 559mm
wheelsets at venues may be just that.
> To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
> 27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
> rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
> and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
> since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader.
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b.
> There are some
> small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
> now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
> into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
> see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
> again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.
to maintain?
> I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
> 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
> of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
> gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
> will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
> availability.
produced, that it must have exponential sales numbers from year to
year. While my economics classes are far, far behind me; I just don’t
see that as a necessity.
> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
> just in case.
John McMurry
Burlington, VT
Rob Harrison
May 12, 2010, 12:12:50 PM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will
always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of
freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?
650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those
kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite
comfortable there.
And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62....
Rob in Seattle
On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry <johnm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
>> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
>> just in case.
>
> That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear.
always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of
freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?
650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those
kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite
comfortable there.
And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62....
Rob in Seattle
On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry <johnm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
>> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
>> just in case.
>
> That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear.
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 12:35:07 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
> We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?
But Freewheels made up a much larger percentage of the market than
650B ever did.
The more apt comparison is VHS and Beta. You can still get both, but
VHS is much easier to find than Beta.
On May 12, 11:12 am, Rob Harrison <robha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will
> always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of
> freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?
>
> 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those
> kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite
> comfortable there.
>
> And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62....
>
> Rob in Seattle
>
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
May 12, 2010, 12:46:49 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
"Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."
No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."
650B bikes were first being discussed. Grant mentioned several 650B
tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen
in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc). Our 650B stock
and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of
which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple
Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty
availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination
of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's
not something I plan to stock. I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will
be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP),
but I haven't laid my hands on any yet. I'm not sure I'd describe this
as a set of options that has "blossomed". Seems to me that there is a
very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could
shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty
thin.
NickBull
May 12, 2010, 12:58:19 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find
a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.
Nick
a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.
Nick
John McMurry
May 12, 2010, 1:59:19 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
On May 12, 12:46 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
my recollection, the Readers started seriously discussing 650b about 6
or 7 years ago.
> Grant mentioned several 650B
> tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen
> in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc).
About 6 years ago, this is what was generally available:
Schwalbe HS 159,
Mitsuboshi Trimline,
Panaracer Col de la Vie and,
Michelin Megamium.
> Our 650B stock
> and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of
> which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple
> Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty
> availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination
> of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's
> not something I plan to stock.
Where our differences lie is probably due to the seats we sit in. As
a consumer, I needn't worry about stocking, margins, and volume,
whereas as a merchant, I would.
> I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will
> be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP),
> but I haven't laid my hands on any yet.
I just got word my LBS's have them in hand. I hope to buy a pair this
week. I'd guess your shipment is near.
> I'm not sure I'd describe this
> as a set of options that has "blossomed".
No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:
Schwalbe HS 159,
Schwalbe Marathon,
Panaracer Col de la Vie,
Sunlite Street Tire,
Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
Grand Bois Cypres,
Grand Bois Ourson,
Grand Bois Hetre,
Pacenti Pari-Moto,
Nokian A10.
I'd think that quantitatively, that qualifies near a blossom.
> Seems to me that there is a
> very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could
> shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty
> thin.
Sure, Riv, Grand Bois, VO, Schwalbe, Pacenti, Panaracer, and
Continental could all simultaneously shift priorities, but that
doesn't change the demand. I'd bet somebody would seize that
opportunity.
<thill....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
>> options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."
>
> No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot
> 650B bikes were first being discussed.
There are several scattered years between those frame discussions. In
>> "Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
>> options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."
>
> No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot
> 650B bikes were first being discussed.
my recollection, the Readers started seriously discussing 650b about 6
or 7 years ago.
> Grant mentioned several 650B
> tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen
> in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc).
Schwalbe HS 159,
Mitsuboshi Trimline,
Panaracer Col de la Vie and,
Michelin Megamium.
> Our 650B stock
> and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of
> which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple
> Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty
> availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination
> of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's
> not something I plan to stock.
a consumer, I needn't worry about stocking, margins, and volume,
whereas as a merchant, I would.
> I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will
> be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP),
> but I haven't laid my hands on any yet.
week. I'd guess your shipment is near.
> I'm not sure I'd describe this
> as a set of options that has "blossomed".
Schwalbe HS 159,
Schwalbe Marathon,
Panaracer Col de la Vie,
Sunlite Street Tire,
Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
Grand Bois Cypres,
Grand Bois Ourson,
Grand Bois Hetre,
Pacenti Pari-Moto,
Nokian A10.
I'd think that quantitatively, that qualifies near a blossom.
> Seems to me that there is a
> very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could
> shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty
> thin.
Continental could all simultaneously shift priorities, but that
doesn't change the demand. I'd bet somebody would seize that
opportunity.
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 2:02:38 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
> Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find
> a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
> ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.
I was thinking more the aftermarket. Just as there are many NOS or
> a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
> ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.
otherwise workable freewheels available on eBay so to there are many
NOS VHS. You can find Beta aftermarket and you can find 650B
aftermarket. Depending what you want though, the look can take a lot
of effort.
To your point, however, there is at least one mainstream - IRdD -
company making freewheels and they are readily available.
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 2:05:39 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
> No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:
To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim.
I did not find any current makes. Fortunately, Jan Heine had one NOS
set of Mavic MA-1s he was willing to sell. Otherwise I would not have
been able to use the hubs I had in mind.
John McMurry
May 12, 2010, 2:12:33 PM5/12/10
to RBW Owners Bunch
On May 12, 2:05 pm, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> > No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:
>
> To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim.
> I did not find any current makes.
According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b
> > No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:
>
> To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim.
> I did not find any current makes.
is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40-
hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point.
Bruce
May 12, 2010, 2:14:52 PM5/12/10
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Add the Continental Tour Ride also in 42mm and 54 mm
> Schwalbe HS 159,
> Schwalbe Marathon,
> Panaracer Col de la Vie,
> Sunlite Street Tire,
> Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
> Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
> Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
> Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
> Grand Bois Cypres,
> Grand Bois Ourson,
> Grand Bois Hetre,
> Pacenti Pari-Moto,
> Nokian A10.
>
> I
> Schwalbe Marathon,
> Panaracer Col de la Vie,
> Sunlite Street Tire,
> Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
> Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
> Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
> Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
> Grand Bois Cypres,
> Grand Bois Ourson,
> Grand Bois Hetre,
> Pacenti Pari-Moto,
> Nokian A10.
>
> I
JoelMatthews
May 12, 2010, 2:34:36 PM5/12/10