The Stem Chronicles: Will this get me injured?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

It’s the stem chronicles, with Leah Peterson. Are you sick of it? I’m sick of it.

There is nothing wrong with my new Clem L.; it’s turning out to be a real joy that has made me very happy. I’ve settled in on it, save for one small thing. I want the bars just a hair higher and closer. I had them at max height, and today I upped them a bit more. See photo. The stem is a Nitto 50 mm and 225 high. I have Bosco bars.

What I want to know is, what horrors might befall me for disobeying the max height line?

If I don’t have to swap out the stem that would be awesome. I’m tired of that game, and if you would just tell me everything will be fine with my current adjustment that would be fantastic. This is what I’m hoping for, folks, but give it to me straight. And can I raise it a smidge more? 😬

I like ‘em close and I like ‘em high,
Leah

[lconley]

The fork steerer tube is weakest at the threads, When you go above the minimum insertion line of the stem, you run the risk of the expander at the bottom of the stem putting pressure on the weaker threaded part of the stem instead of the stronger smooth part of the stem. The steerer tube could then break at the threaded section and the handlebars and stem would no longer be able to steer the bike. Also, if you the lifted the bike, the fork might drop out of the frame. Never seen it happen, but those are the dangers.

Laing

Delray Beach, FL

[Leah Peterson]

So with all the standing I do (because I (erroneously?) believe it gives me an upper body workout as I pull on the bars up giant hills, this is a risky thing, huh? 

What does a person do if she wants higher bars? Or should I just try to adapt to what I have? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2020, at 10:21 AM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:



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[Garth]

I'll put it this way, E calls you on the phone and says :  "I'm going to alter your sourdough recipe, just a smidge , and it will still taste even better, trust me". 

You say .......  ?

 

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 1:11:39 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Leah Peterson]

I say...

“You better share your recipe. You owe me, kid.”

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On Jan 23, 2020, at 10:36 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[lconley]

Nitto makes a 280 extra tall Technomic, supposedly available as short as 70 extension.

Laing

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[Joe Bunik]

The problem is with the location where the expander-bolt now falls
within the steerer -- IF it's in the threaded section, its force is
creating a stress riser which gets amplified every time you hit bump.

One of the Bruce Gordon frames I salvaged had this fate befall it,
clearly a too-high stem had tore through the steerer. Somebody
probably regretted that immediately!

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

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[Joe Bernard]

Yes it will get you injured. Which you already did this week so no more injuries for you!

[Joe Bernard]

Laing, can you find a link for that?

[Drw]

Also, and im only saying this because i recently had to encounter a handlebar raising issue that previously had been of no concern,  that max height line should be at or below the top of the headtube of the bike. 

My dad had his set like right below the top nut and thought it was ok because the line wasn't visible. sorta makes sense, but i asked LBS and its gotta go lower. 

[Garth]

Okay smartypants .... ahahahahahahha  !!!

......what do you suppose the "min. insertion" line is there for in the first place ?

[Christopher Murray]

It might be fine but it might not. Is it worth the risk? Stem failures can be dangerous depending on the how and when of it. I'd buy the longer stem and do it right to eliminate the risk and so it would be done right. Your beautiful bike deserves it!

Chris

[Garth]

FWIW, the Nitto NTC 280 also comes in a 50mm version.

http://nitto-tokyo.sakura.ne.jp/stem-E.html

https://alexscycle.com/products/nitto-technomic-ntc-280-stem-1

There's also using the Nitto MTC-04-225 , sometimes called the MTC-04 long, with a threadless stem that has positive rise, rather than extra long quills and a negative rise stem .

At least with an open face stem you never ever have to remove everything from your bars to change a stem.

[lconley]

Bike Touring News has a 90 extension with 26.0 bars.

Alex's Cycle in Japan says 50 extension with 25.4 bars.$59 plus shipping

Rivendell can probably order one.

Laing

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 2:04:32 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Leah Peterson]

I am in agreement. You guys have all said the same thing which is “DON’T DO THAT!”

Knowing the risk, I’ll gladly buy the new taller stem.. if it exists! I don’t want to be injured (again). It turns out I’m not good at that. 🤷‍♀️

Where do you find one? My cursory searches yielded nothing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Christopher Murray <chrispm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It might be fine but it might not. Is it worth the risk? Stem failures can be dangerous depending on the how and when of it. I'd buy the longer stem and do it right to eliminate the risk and so it would be done right. Your beautiful bike deserves it!
>
> Chris
>

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[Deacon Patrick]

Leah: "So with all the standing I do (because I (erroneously?) believe it gives me an upper body workout as I pull on the bars up giant hills, this is a risky thing, huh?"

Arm and core work happens to varying degrees with every pedal stroke. The more you pull up on the bars in opposition to you pedal stroke down, the greater the arm work out. Ideally, all motion (legs and arms) initiates in your core (because of modern chairs et al, core muscles tend to be fairly weak), the idea being that big work should be done with big muscles, then attenuated through small muscles (hips, legs, feet) in finer gratiation of application and finesse. Your core can't push the pedals, that's what feet are fore, but it can initiate the engery push through the hips, to the legs, to the feet, each of which refines and applies that power along the way until it goes into a pedal traveling in a circle.

None of this is dependent on standing, though applying power through a high, parallel handlebar, such as Bosco, is made far easier standing than sitting (as opposed to a more perpendicular bar, such as bullmoose, that make sitting power strokes very easy.

All of which is to say you may want to play (within the limits of your current stem) some more before trying for a taller stem. Enjoy!

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Garth]

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/product/nitto-stem-technomic-quill-280mm-xl-25-4mm-4096?category=817

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NITTO-Nitto-MTC-04-x-225mm-SILVER-o28-6-22-2/173450990973?hash=item28627c157d:g:de0AAOSwdqJbZfOy

[Mark Roland]

https://www.modernbike.com/nitto-mt-10-long-quill-stem-25.4-35d-x-80-silver

this should be able to go higher than your current stem, since the extension itself also rises. The effective reach will probably be around the 50mm point of your current stem.

[Dorothy C]

How about a dirt drop? You would need the 25.4 clamp version for mountain bike style bars.
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/stems/products/nitto-dirt-drop-26-0-8cm-or-10cm?variant=17940575027311

[tc]

Leah,
This analog stem might work. They will have it in 0mm and 30mm reach versions. Will need shims since it’s a 31.8 handlebar clamp, and your Bosco at the clamp has a 25.4mm diameter. They can get you the right shims.

https://www.analogcycles.com/product/analog-wright-stem/

Tom

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-8, lconley wrote:

The fork steerer tube is weakest at the threads, When you go above the minimum insertion line of the stem, you run the risk of the expander at the bottom of the stem putting pressure on the weaker threaded part of the stem instead of the stronger smooth part of the stem. The steerer tube could then break at the threaded section and the handlebars and stem would no longer be able to steer the bike. Also, if you the lifted the bike, the fork might drop out of the frame. Never seen it happen, but those are the dangers.

I just want to add that since there's a small stack of spacers between the two threaded pieces, there's a higher chance the expander will be on the threads. Nevertheless, I'm not a big proponent of going nuts on that expander bolt, simply because it only needs to be tight enough to not slip. Furthermore, in a crash, I'll want the stem to slip anyway.

Leah, since you're already using a tall stem with a 50mm extension, perhaps you should consider a dirt drop stem. These tend to have a long quill, and have taller effective height with shorter effective reach through that up-jutting design.

[Joe Bernard]

The 8cm DirtDrop has 186mm rise above the Max Height line. I don't believe this will give her any more height than her Tallux.

[Leah Peterson]

Maybe I’m being unreasonable. If they don’t really make stems this high and we know my bike already has a high head tube, maybe it’s not you it’s me, you know?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The 8cm DirtDrop has 186mm rise above the Max Height line. I don't believe this will give her any more height than her Tallux.

>
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[lconley]

Soma evidently has the 280 length, 50 extension, 25.4 diameter in stock - over 2 extra inches of height! I vote go for that.

Laing

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 4:33:39 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Maybe I’m being unreasonable. If they don’t really make stems this high and we know my bike already has a high head tube, maybe it’s not you it’s me, you know?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The 8cm DirtDrop has 186mm rise above the Max Height line. I don't believe this will give her any more height than her Tallux.
>
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[Deacon Patrick]

Alternatively, lower your saddle to raise your bars. You may well be surprised. My experience is this:

When doing full squats, the most powerful, sustainable push is mid-squat. Very few people have their saddle height set so their pedal stroke matches the middle third of a squat, yet this is the most efficient and powerful way to position the saddle: so the down stroke begins at a 1/3rd squat and the bottom of the stroke is at a 2/3rds squat.

With abandon,

Patrick  

[David B]

Using this stem comparison tool: http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

The Dirt Drop would be 25mm taller than the Tallux at maximum heights, however it'd have ~15mm reach than the Tallux when raised to the appropriate position.

[tc]

Keep in mind that swapping out your current 5cm stem for an Analog "Tanglefoort w(Right)" 0cm stem I mentioned above gets the bars 2" closer to you.  So, you might not need your bar any higher at that point.  The w(Right) stem has a 225mm shaft height, so, though I'm not sure of its max height line (you should ask them how high it can safely go), you could hopefully get them up at least as high as your current stem.  I don't think there's another option for you stem-wise...I mean, 0mm is pretty much the shortest :)

Now, handlebar-wise, you DO have more options to get your grip higher than even a Bosco.  Search for "Cruiser" handlebars.  Nitto, Wald, Trek/Electra, Sunlite, and other companies make a wide variety of "sit up and beg" bars.

Tom

[masmojo]

Leah, I think you are more or less at the limit; could you get the bars higher or closer? Yeah, but reasonably how much difference would it make & at what cost.

Honestly, I think you'll get a more effective upper body workout with the bars lower and pushing & pulling the bars towards and away from you with your body more or less over the bars.

Did that make sense?

[Leah Peterson]

You may well be right, Mas.

I called Rivendell and I asked about the Nitto 280 mm quill. They had never heard of it so I sent them Soma’s link. Riv’s newsletter today told of a hefty bill they have coming so I asked if Rivendell could get this stem and take my order, and does it even help. They can! It does!

So, I guess I’m going to spring for this ridiculously expensive stem and see if I can finally put #stemsonclems to rest.

It isn’t like my fit is so off on this bike - it’s just that every single time I ride it I think, I wish I could sit back a little. If these bars were just a bit higher I’d have no tension in my arms. I can get them there if I ignore the perils of the Max Height Line, but you all have scared me out of doing THAT. It’s close - it really is, and maybe I’m poised to make my situation worse in this pursuit of perfection.

I know that perfect is the sworn enemy of good. Or however that saying goes - you know what I mean.

I guess we’ll see. Thanks for all the help!
Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 4:00 PM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Leah, I think you are more or less at the limit; could you get the bars higher or closer? Yeah, but reasonably how much difference would it make & at what cost.

>
> Honestly, I think you'll get a more effective upper body workout with the bars lower and pushing & pulling the bars towards and away from you with your body more or less over the bars.
>
> Did that make sense?
>

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[masmojo]

Maybe you could just get your Clementine repainted!?

Might be cheaper/easier!

[Joe Bernard]

I think you should get the tall stem that SOMA was offering. Ok I know you've already decided this, but I wanted to give my advice, too! 🙃

[aeroperf]

And thank you for this thread.  My Homer's stem looked exactly like Leah's photo, and I just ordered the longer one from Soma.

The 51 frame is too small and I may yet get a different one, but at least now I'll be able to ride without destroying the steerer tube.

[Leah Peterson]

No way, Mas. I pulled my Clementine out to see how different it would feel today. I couldn’t stand it. It was all wrong. This, after swearing it was perfect for me. It’s amazing what you can get used to; and it’s amazing how much better you can feel with simple adjustments to your bike.

When I purchased my Betty Foy I didn’t know there was anything adjustable about it, other than saddle height. I rode it with the bars low (as it came) and just thought that’s how it should be. It was from the List and Rivendell’s product descriptions that I learned that I could do things like raise the bars or tilt the saddle nose or scoot it forward on the rails. I started understanding what my preferences were and how the parts of my bike worked together for function and comfort.

We all know from my previous threads that my new Clem has taken a lot of tinkering with and getting used to. None of these things did I do willingly. I am eternally afraid of change, which is ridiculous. Every time I took my Betty Foy to the bike shop for tuneups, I would be hand-wringing over any part that had to be replaced. “It won’t be the same!” I think I actually cried when I had to have a new wheel built and two new tires. “It’s only been five years!” The wheel was cracked and the tires were worn down to the fabric. 🙄

[Leah Peterson]

I’m really looking forward to hearing how it turns out for you! We’ll make sure to put our heads together on this thread when we’ve both got our new stems. And like I said earlier, you can get yours from Rivendell if you like!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2020, at 5:45 PM, aeroperf <dore...@comcast.net> wrote:



And thank you for this thread.  My Homer's stem looked exactly like Leah's photo, and I just ordered the longer one from Soma.

The 51 frame is too small and I may yet get a different one, but at least now I'll be able to ride without destroying the steerer tube.

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[Edwin W]

My advice: put it at the safe height and ride it for a month. If you don’t get used to it, well your month wasn’t perfect, but a month is a short time in life, I hope! Then you will really know you need a taller one!
Good luck!

Edwin, who doesn’t like to change cockpits more than every couple thousand miles.

[Dorothy C]

In my case it has been a process towards becoming more willing to do stuff on my bike. A couple of years ago, I was still having my wife put air in my tires, whereas last night I changed my Cheviot from Choconorm handlebars and Sunrace thumbies to Albatross bars and Silver bar end mounts and the new Silver 2 shifters that I bought back in November. I have the new shifter cables dialed in enough to ride, and I will swing it by the bike shop to have them check the shifting.
I still will buy the Silver 2 thumb mounts when they get here, but they will be for my Bullmoosed Appaloosa.

I was commenting to my wife last night that I am much more confident and patient with the bike now, mostly because Rivs are so nice to work on and I am not so scared I am going to make the bike unrideable. Of course, having back up bikes helps too, haha.

[Dorothy C]

Picture of my 55cm Cheviot

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Dorothy, this is so awesome. I love that you have learned to do all these mechanical things. I can imagine the freedom and the confidence it must give a person - I’m clapping for you from here. How did you learn these skills? Online? From someone else? And how are you liking the Silver shifters? If the Cheviot plan pans out for me, I think those are the ones to get.

Your Cheviot looks just lovely - is it the same pretty blue as my 2019 Clem L? I think it is. And while you’re at it, can we see your 45 Clem L???

[Joe Bernard]

Dorothy,
I'm using one Silver2 bar-end on my Clem L and love it. One excellent thing about friction shifters is once you have them shifting across the whole rear cassette and front chainrings, you're done. There's no clicks to dial in just right so I suspect your LBS is going tell you, "You don't need our help." 🙂

[Dorothy C]

Joe,
I think it is more the issue of having enough hand strength to get the cables snug enough. I live a mile from a bike shop with a great retrogrouch type bike mechanic, and he always loves working on my bikes.
Leah,
The silver 2 shifters are really smooth and a nice ergonomic shape. My Cheviot is a 2019, so I believe it is the same color as your Clem.
I have learnt bike stuff from online videos mostly, typically from the youtube channels Park Tool and Made Good bikes. Riv have some videos under the articles tab, especially page 5, the earliest ones. I also hunt down bike books written by women, like Elly Blue and Amy Walker.

[Dorothy C]

My bikes

[Christopher Cote]

I'd like to chime in to say that on Rivendell bikes, you need to have the stem inserted somewhat more than the Max line would suggest. With the longer threaded portion of steerer tube that Riv uses, putting a stem at the max line may still leave the wedge in the threaded portion of a stem. as an extreme example, I found that a Profile Boa stem could not be used on my Atlantis due to this. The stem simply could not be inserted deep enough to get the wedge below the threads in the steerer. I like to hold the stem up next to the headtube and mark the stem with a new line that shows me how much it needs to be inserted to get the top of the wedge well below the upper headset cup.

Chris

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Dorothy - the blue saddle on the Appaloosa is 💎😍. Your collection of Rivendells is enviable; I’m so glad you sent us those photos. Thank you! If the Appaloosa is the “windy day bike”, and I assume the Roadini is for speed, what are the roles of the Cheviot and Clem? Is there a lot of overlap or do you feel the bikes are distinctly different?

Chris - this is good to know and makes me glad I ordered the longer stem. If Rivendell gets a lot of calls asking for this Nitto stem, maybe they’ll carry it.

[Dorothy C]

Leah,

You are right about the Appaloosa and the Roadini.

Around the middle of 2018 when I was considering a step through, Rivendell were out of stock of both the Cheviot and the Clem in my size, but Spencer had sent me a sneak peak image of the new blue and green, and I liked both of them. When the Cheviot became available for pre order, I got the blue frame and at the time I was building it I could only get the dynamo wheel set. I invested in some Busch and Mueller lights for it, which turned out great, but the *slight* downside is you have to rig something up to mount them to, and you have to be a bit careful not to damage the wires.
I was planning to get a step through as a bit more of a rough and tumble bike, something I wouldn’t mind taking on the bus rack or locking up at the grocery store.
The Cheviot has proved a bit daintier than I anticipated, although it is a great commuter for our locked employee lot. I originally bought 50mm tires for it, but they don’t fit with fenders, so I have 42’s.
When I saw my son’s green Clem in person I found the color even more gorgeous.
As someone on this list has mentioned, if Rivendell have something you like and you can afford it, you should go for it, because it might not be around forever.
I have different handlebars, drivetrain, saddles, and of course brake types, wheel sizes and tires on the Cheviot vs the Clem, and I am very happy to have both of them.
I would say they ride quite differently too, with the Clem feeling more sprightly, but they are both lovely to ride.

[Joe Bernard]

That's the funny thing about Cheviot v. Clem L (I've owned both): You would think the lighter Chev would feel more sprightly, but it's quite the stiff road bike. The L with its way-low toptube has a flex in it that reacts (to my mind) as a spring when you pedal. It's fun!

[Mark Roland]

Just don't claim the Clem L "planes" over on iBOB or you'll be excommunicated.

[Dorothy C]

Leah,
I forgot to mention, I have less superfluity of bikes than it might sound. I took the Roadini to Wales at Christmas so I could ride with my sister, and have some personal transport while I was there, and she is kindly storing the Roadini in her bike shed for times when I go to visit family.
This is a picture of her and me, I am on the right.

[Joe Bernard]

"Just don't claim the Clem L "planes" over on iBOB or you'll be excommunicated."

Hehe, no worries, I excommunicated myself from that joint after some guy got mad because I said carbon forks are stupid. Which they are!

[Leah Peterson]

I love this photo and your story so much - you gals are SISTER GOALS. It’s so great.

I don’t think you have superfluous Rivs at ALL. In fact, Roberta and I were chatting about this thread and we were saying how we thought your Rivendells were perfectly chosen for their respective functions. I would love to have your fellowship of Rivendells; and how nice that you have one you can use when you see your family. You only run the risk of your sister stealing your Leo - just like when we were all kids and stealing from our sisters’ closets. It’s a forgivable offense, but just barely. I’m so glad you were able to get both the RBW blue and the chameleon green in your bikes; those colors just call to a person, you know?

And finally, here is a photo of my sister and me (from her visit a week ago) on Clems - #sisterclems.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Miles and miles of stem...as far as the eye can see. 🤣

[Joe Bernard]

I think the seattube on my 45cm Clem L is shorter than your stem 😁

[Roberta]

You will be the happiest upright bicycle rider in Nevada. That is a beautiful tall/short stem.

[masmojo]

Leah, it strikes me that what you're going for is what bikies call "a strandie". Which is a rather loose description, but basically boils down to a Cruiser with tall or wide & tall handlebars.
It's a common term in different coastal regions, but regionally the execution is a big different.
Most of the ones I've seen on the Gulf Coast (Galveston, New Orleans) have high rise stingray handlebars, while on the West coast they seem to go for wide long bars with ends that poke up in the air.
Type Strandie in Google and you get a hodgepodge.

https://images.app.goo.gl/K6zDVttyyZSpPJYr8

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Roberta - yes, I’ll be the happiest for sure! “Joyously upright.”

Mas - I don’t know about all that. I just like not having to lean forward or have weight on my hands. I’ve heard it called “Sit up and beg” position, but my husband said, “No, it’s the seated command position.” 🤣🤣🤣