Tics in the bars at the stem clamp - help

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

On my raspberry Platypus I have aluminum Billie bars and a Nitto Technomic 12 cm stem from Riv. Maybe once a year in any of my bikes, I’ll get this irritating ticking in the bars. Years ago after trial and error, I found it was coming from where the stem clamps the bars. Put a little T9 on there and you’ll ride in blissful silence for another year or so. But this time, it is HORRID. A constant cacophony of ticking that nearly drove me wild during our 34 mile club ride today. If I grab the bar ends, I can make the sound happen. I have applied T9 twice, greased the bolt, unscrewed it and screwed it back in again…it’s still making the noise. If I go howling to the bike shop they will have mercy and help but before I do that, I’m coming to you all because you’ll know more about our type of bars. 

1. Do these bars wear out? I can’t imagine that would be the case. The stem is maybe a year old and the bars maybe 3 years.  

2. Has this ever happened to you? How did you fix it?

3. Would a faceplater stem fix this issue? If I thought it would, I’d get one and learn how to properly torque that sucker.

4. I can’t get the bars to move on me, if that’s what you’re wondering. I can stand and put weight on them and they don’t obviously slip.

Thanks for your help!

Leah

[Franco Rinaldi]

I thought that will or Roman mentioned this in one of the news letters - they took the stem out of the head tube and jazzed it all up and eventually found the culprit.

Franco Rinaldi 

c:  646.403.0661 

-Pardon any typos, Siri typed this message-

On Sep 30, 2024, at 4:40 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On my raspberry Platypus I have aluminum Billie bars and a Nitto Technomic 12 cm stem from Riv. Maybe once a year in any of my bikes, I’ll get this irritating ticking in the bars. Years ago after trial and error, I found it was coming from where the stem clamps the bars. Put a little T9 on there and you’ll ride in blissful silence for another year or so. But this time, it is HORRID. A constant cacophony of ticking that nearly drove me wild during our 34 mile club ride today. If I grab the bar ends, I can make the sound happen. I have applied T9 twice, greased the bolt, unscrewed it and screwed it back in again…it’s still making the noise. If I go howling to the bike shop they will have mercy and help but before I do that, I’m coming to you all because you’ll know more about our type of bars. 

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[Leah Peterson]

Lol, Franco what is jazzing up the stem?!! How can I jazz up MY stem?! I don’t recall that in the newsletter, but I’ll email Will. If he’s dealt with this before he will know what to tell me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 30, 2024, at 4:43 PM, Franco Rinaldi <fmri...@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought that will or Roman mentioned this in one of the news letters - they took the stem out of the head tube and jazzed it all up and eventually found the culprit.

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[Franco Rinaldi]

I don’t know if it was will or Antonio. I’ll look again on my train ride home. 

Franco Rinaldi 

c:  646.403.0661 

-Pardon any typos, Siri typed this message-

On Sep 30, 2024, at 4:58 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lol, Franco what is jazzing up the stem?!! How can I jazz up MY stem?! I don’t recall that in the newsletter, but I’ll email Will. If he’s dealt with this before he will know what to tell me.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/10B36504-8E84-4148-95BE-A590079CC904%40gmail.com.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Suggest verifying the stem quill bolt is tight by tightening it.   I believe Franc's 'jazzing' means to remove the stem from the headtube, clean it, grease it very well. and insert back into the head/steerer tube, and tighten it very well.

Also is the Technomic stem clamp diameter (25.4 or 26mm) match the Billie bar clamp diameter???   RBW site does not state the Billie bar clamp diameter.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Bill Lindsay]

Leah

On all sleeved aluminum handlebars, the sleeve was at one time a separate part from the rest of the bar.  That interface is not always totally perfect on every instance of every bar, and some can click click.  It's case by case, and some people have never heard a sleeved bar tick.  Some will be really proud about it: "I have seven sets of Noodles in my stable and they are ALL SILENT, harumph!"  Some people who have had one ticking handlebar might overstate it with "Sleeved bars all do that!  BLAH". Most mechanics of a certain age who pay attention have seen it from time to time.  Give a shot of your T9 at that interface, where the bar-proper disappears into the sleeve.  If that's the ticking you are hearing, that should quiet it down.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Danny]

I agree with Bill L. about using a little T9 at the sleeve over the clamp area. My Billie's creaked/ticked and ever sinced I dripped T9 around the sleeve edge (you should do both sides), they've been silent.

I would try laying the bike on one side, drip some T9 at the sleeve edge and let it sit overnight. Then, repeat with the other side the next night. Good luck, those little sounds can drive you mad!

Photo attached showing one side of the sleeve.

-Danny

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[Ryan Frahm]

I remember reading somewhere that dripping some Loctite down into the sleeve and letting it dry will solve this issue for good. I built my wife’s Platypus with the Billie bar and have been lucky so far…

[Leah Peterson]





Huh, interesting. Ok, well, I have been VERY liberal with the T9 at that interface but I will try that again and I will also tend to the stem. Will did write me back (I emailed after Franco said it was in the newsletter) and Will said he knows that tic well and I should loosen the bolt, pump the stem up and down and see if that solves it. He says it always works for him. 

John, yes, good thinking; I did order the correct size stem. 

I have already showered for the night so I’ll try this after work tomorrow at like 330ish. 

Danny - oh wow, a whole night! I just saw this. Thanks for the pic. I will get in there with the T9!

Thanks so much for all your help, you guys. I mean it. I love this bike and everything is a crisis when there’s any problem with it. I’m not a reasonable person about The Racing Platypus.

Leah

On Sep 30, 2024, at 6:46 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah

On all sleeved aluminum handlebars, the sleeve was at one time a separate part from the rest of the bar.  That interface is not always totally perfect on every instance of every bar, and some can click click.  It's case by case, and some people have never heard a sleeved bar tick.  Some will be really proud about it: "I have seven sets of Noodles in my stable and they are ALL SILENT, harumph!"  Some people who have had one ticking handlebar might overstate it with "Sleeved bars all do that!  BLAH". Most mechanics of a certain age who pay attention have seen it from time to time.  Give a shot of your T9 at that interface, where the bar-proper disappears into the sleeve.  If that's the ticking you are hearing, that should quiet it down.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, September 30, 2024 at 1:40:46 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

On my raspberry Platypus I have aluminum Billie bars and a Nitto Technomic 12 cm stem from Riv. Maybe once a year in any of my bikes, I’ll get this irritating ticking in the bars. Years ago after trial and error, I found it was coming from where the stem clamps the bars. Put a little T9 on there and you’ll ride in blissful silence for another year or so. But this time, it is HORRID. A constant cacophony of ticking that nearly drove me wild during our 34 mile club ride today. If I grab the bar ends, I can make the sound happen. I have applied T9 twice, greased the bolt, unscrewed it and screwed it back in again…it’s still making the noise. If I go howling to the bike shop they will have mercy and help but before I do that, I’m coming to you all because you’ll know more about our type of bars. 

1. Do these bars wear out? I can’t imagine that would be the case. The stem is maybe a year old and the bars maybe 3 years.  

2. Has this ever happened to you? How did you fix it?

3. Would a faceplater stem fix this issue? If I thought it would, I’d get one and learn how to properly torque that sucker.

4. I can’t get the bars to move on me, if that’s what you’re wondering. I can stand and put weight on them and they don’t obviously slip.

Thanks for your help!

Leah

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[Leah Peterson]

This happened with my Boscos, too. No bar is safe 😂. 

On Sep 30, 2024, at 6:55 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I remember reading somewhere that dripping some Loctite down into the sleeve and letting it dry will solve this issue for good. I built my wife’s Platypus with the Billie bar and have been lucky so far…

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[Leah Peterson]

Update. I couldn’t stand the thought of leaving my bike like that until tomorrow. I went out to the garage, freshly showered, IN MY PAJAMAS and I attacked that stem with a shop towel and fresh lube. I pumped that stem up and down like Will said and tightened that bolt down good like John said. I raised the garage door for more light to line up the bars and wheel and respect the “max height” line on the stem. Of course several neighbors walked by and witnessed this spectacle but it doesn’t matter. I am a woman in possession of a broken Platypus, this is no time for decency. I came back into the garage and then I went after the sleeve with T9 and that little red straw it comes with on BOTH sides. I  laid the Platypus down a mat and propped the brake lever with my tool bag. 

Now, the good news is that after the stem lubing, I didn’t hear that tick. Could be incidental. We will likely never know which intervention worked (if they work) because I did ALL of them tonight. But if I’m going out to the garage to get my hands dirty (just kidding! I wore gloves!) I might as well do all the things.

Leah

On Sep 30, 2024, at 6:55 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I remember reading somewhere that dripping some Loctite down into the sleeve and letting it dry will solve this issue for good. I built my wife’s Platypus with the Billie bar and have been lucky so far…

--

[Franco Rinaldi]

I know that feeling. My Clem is the one bike I need ready at all times. Glad you got it sorted out!! You jazzed it up 

Franco Rinaldi 

c:  646.403.0661 

-Pardon any typos, Siri typed this message-

On Sep 30, 2024, at 7:27 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



Update. I couldn’t stand the thought of leaving my bike like that until tomorrow. I went out to the garage, freshly showered, IN MY PAJAMAS and I attacked that stem with a shop towel and fresh lube. I pumped that stem up and down like Will said and tightened that bolt down good like John said. I raised the garage door for more light to line up the bars and wheel and respect the “max height” line on the stem. Of course several neighbors walked by and witnessed this spectacle but it doesn’t matter. I am a woman in possession of a broken Platypus, this is no time for decency. I came back into the garage and then I went after the sleeve with T9 and that little red straw it comes with on BOTH sides. I  laid the Platypus down a mat and propped the brake lever with my tool bag. 

<image0.jpeg>

Now, the good news is that after the stem lubing, I didn’t hear that tick. Could be incidental. We will likely never know which intervention worked (if they work) because I did ALL of them tonight. But if I’m going out to the garage to get my hands dirty (just kidding! I wore gloves!) I might as well do all the things.

Leah

On Sep 30, 2024, at 6:55 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I remember reading somewhere that dripping some Loctite down into the sleeve and letting it dry will solve this issue for good. I built my wife’s Platypus with the Billie bar and have been lucky so far…

On Monday, September 30, 2024 at 3:46:17 PM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

Leah

On all sleeved aluminum handlebars, the sleeve was at one time a separate part from the rest of the bar.  That interface is not always totally perfect on every instance of every bar, and some can click click.  It's case by case, and some people have never heard a sleeved bar tick.  Some will be really proud about it: "I have seven sets of Noodles in my stable and they are ALL SILENT, harumph!"  Some people who have had one ticking handlebar might overstate it with "Sleeved bars all do that!  BLAH". Most mechanics of a certain age who pay attention have seen it from time to time.  Give a shot of your T9 at that interface, where the bar-proper disappears into the sleeve.  If that's the ticking you are hearing, that should quiet it down.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, September 30, 2024 at 1:40:46 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

On my raspberry Platypus I have aluminum Billie bars and a Nitto Technomic 12 cm stem from Riv. Maybe once a year in any of my bikes, I’ll get this irritating ticking in the bars. Years ago after trial and error, I found it was coming from where the stem clamps the bars. Put a little T9 on there and you’ll ride in blissful silence for another year or so. But this time, it is HORRID. A constant cacophony of ticking that nearly drove me wild during our 34 mile club ride today. If I grab the bar ends, I can make the sound happen. I have applied T9 twice, greased the bolt, unscrewed it and screwed it back in again…it’s still making the noise. If I go howling to the bike shop they will have mercy and help but before I do that, I’m coming to you all because you’ll know more about our type of bars. 

1. Do these bars wear out? I can’t imagine that would be the case. The stem is maybe a year old and the bars maybe 3 years.  

2. Has this ever happened to you? How did you fix it?

3. Would a faceplater stem fix this issue? If I thought it would, I’d get one and learn how to properly torque that sucker.

4. I can’t get the bars to move on me, if that’s what you’re wondering. I can stand and put weight on them and they don’t obviously slip.

Thanks for your help!

Leah

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[Leah Peterson]

That Platypus got the jazziest stem treatment it’s ever had. And it had better act like it tomorrow! 🤣🤣🤣

On Sep 30, 2024, at 7:56 PM, Franco Rinaldi <fmri...@gmail.com> wrote:

I know that feeling. My Clem is the one bike I need ready at all times. Glad you got it sorted out!! You jazzed it up 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/E75904A7-FC3C-4981-B278-7FC28C9FE454%40gmail.com.

[David Ross]

The bars definitely do wear out, but the way most Riv riders have them set up (high bar height relative to saddle plus generally chill riding) they're likely to last a very long time. Anytime aluminum is flexing, it’s going to eventually fail. I ride some more extreme terrain on a couple of my bikes and I always do so with steel or titanium bars. Personally, I doubt you’ve worn yours out unless you feel them flexing at times. Technically, the heat treated alloy bars are  “stronger” than the cromo bars, but the alloy bars can still fail from long term use in a way that cromo won’t. I definitely recommend a faceplater as I’ve  always had issues with single bolt stems. 

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[franco rinaldi]

Leah how did it work out? Was the solution effective?

[Leah Peterson]

I’m heading out for a ride in five minutes! I’ll let you know! 🥰

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2024, at 9:12 AM, franco rinaldi <fmri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah how did it work out? Was the solution effective?

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[Leah Peterson]

Appears to be fixed!!! I’m 10 miles in, stopped for coffee, and so far so good. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m heading out for a ride in five minutes! I’ll let you know! 🥰

[Leah Peterson]

Update: it is not fixed. It may be slightly improved, but there is ticking. The bolts are good and tight. But listen to this maddening sound. See attached video. Next step? 

If no other ideas I can go to the bike shop with my tail between my legs again and whine about special sounds the bike is making that no one else will hear when I do it at the shop. My favorite game to play 😰

[Ryan Frahm]

I’m very familiar with that annoying ticking! I ended up changing out my Bosco bars because of it (didn’t bother trying to fix them because I wanted a different bar anyway). I would consider trying to put loctite down in there, I have heard it works. Or consider a custom Doom bar made to match the specs of the Billie!

[Ted Durant]

When you say you "attacked that stem with a towel and fresh lube", does that mean you cleaned the stem, wedge, and expander bolt fully and then greased it all, reassembled, and put back in the bike? Did you also put some grease under the expander bolt at the top of the stem? Did you wipe out the inside of the steerer tube (the fork, where the stem inserts), as well?

Ted "I hate clicks and creaks" Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, no way was I that thorough. I had no idea I should do all those things. I wiped all the old goop off so the stem was shiny and smeared around fresh lube and then pumped the stem up and down. I need a mentor!

Leah

On Oct 2, 2024, at 1:44 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

When you say you "attacked that stem with a towel and fresh lube", does that mean you cleaned the stem, wedge, and expander bolt fully and then greased it all, reassembled, and put back in the bike? Did you also put some grease under the expander bolt at the top of the stem? Did you wipe out the inside of the steerer tube (the fork, where the stem inserts), as well?

Ted "I hate clicks and creaks" Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Have you considered dripping some Loctite into the sleeve and letting it dry, as one of the posters suggested.  I would think Blue Loctite but you might reach out to him to verify the color.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

It’s pretty tight. I don’t know that the Loctite would really make it in there. It’s been pointed out to me in DMs that this could be a number of things, including a worn headset. I don’t know. There is one man at the shop who can fix anything. The trick is handing HIM the bike when I get there. I am never sure when he works and I’m too Midwest nice to pull away from the outstretched hand of whatever mechanic that isn’t him…

On Oct 2, 2024, at 2:40 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Leah

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ab428f72-daf6-4bd7-b6b1-304205af088bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Franco Rinaldi]

I think the Roman or Antonio article in the newsletter mentioned the loctite trick.

Franco Rinaldi 

c:  646.403.0661 

-Pardon any typos, Siri typed this message-

On Oct 2, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ryan]

At the risk of asking a dumb question, I take it you still hear this clicking even if you didn't have cup/cupholder, phone/mount, etc. installed, right? Or some goofy noise where cables are rubbing something else?

It does sound like some funky thing with the bar/stem interface to me...or maybe headset needs adjusting/overhauling? I've heard similar clicking with a headset that was poorly adjusted. Given all the riding you do on that bike maybe your headset needs some TLC

As far as driving you nuts...I feel ya. I hate noises like that; I don't care what bike I'm riding

Good luck. One way to look at it is that because you pay attention to the sounds of the bike, it's a good chance that a minor, fixable issue won't turn into a major and costly one.

[Patrick Moore]

Let me add a +1 for the man who makes Doom bars. I don't use one of his bars but he very kindly did a small but critical rack modification for me at a very reasonable price; he's here in ABQ and did the work after Chauncey bailed on the bike brazing business.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 11:40 AM Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Or consider a custom Doom bar made to match the specs of the Billie!

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

You may want to slightly loosen the stem clamp bolt and drip in the T9 or Loctitie.  The loosen bolt may increase the distance between the bar and the sleeve allowing the fluid to penetrate further.   Alternatively, you could remove the bar, turn on it's side and drip the fluid in.

As for the headset, It is a brand new headset, so wear should not be an issue.   You may want to them to verify it is installed correctly, the fixed cups are square in the headtube & the headset is assembled and tightened correctly.   It is brand new headset, so wear should not be an issue.  I believe they come installed from Taiwan, but yours may be different.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Paul Donald]

I have been having what seems like the same issue on my Rosco Bubbe (Platypus variant). I switched my Boscos out for Toscos and switched the 100 x 26mm clamp Tallux with a 110 x 25.4. Mad clicking. Drive me mad clicking. Tightened everything, and everything seemed tight. But it seemed more from the stem/headtube interface than bars/stem. Took stem out, liberally greased the bolt, wedge, stem, and steerer. Seemed ok for a day. Then started clicking again. Noticed it was only when pressure was applied to the left hand side of the bars. Then had to stuff my bike in the back of someones car which required some disassembly. When I put the stem in again I set it higher by accident, which turned out to be a better height AND stopped the clicking.

In the end I still have no idea what was causing it. Some kind of grit in the steerer tube? 

[Joe Bernard]

I'm starting to think there's a reason we have open-face stems clamped to steerer tubes on most modern bikes...

[Dan]

Just dropping in to say that greasing the expander wedge and bolt fixed the clicking I had on a quill stem bike of mine! 

It was clicking I heard when yanking on the wide bars near the ends, such as standing up and pedalling. It’s a singlespeed, so I used to hear that sound all the time…

[Leah Peterson]

Paul, SAME. Left side of the bars!

On Oct 3, 2024, at 1:57 AM, Paul Donald <snipp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been having what seems like the same issue on my Rosco Bubbe (Platypus variant). I switched my Boscos out for Toscos and switched the 100 x 26mm clamp Tallux with a 110 x 25.4. Mad clicking. Drive me mad clicking. Tightened everything, and everything seemed tight. But it seemed more from the stem/headtube interface than bars/stem. Took stem out, liberally greased the bolt, wedge, stem, and steerer. Seemed ok for a day. Then started clicking again. Noticed it was only when pressure was applied to the left hand side of the bars. Then had to stuff my bike in the back of someones car which required some disassembly. When I put the stem in again I set it higher by accident, which turned out to be a better height AND stopped the clicking.

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[Garth]

A auto mechanic's style scope can help isolate exactly where it's coming from. From my standpoint of the viewer it's impossible to tell anything other than there is a sharp metallic like  noise. The mechanic's scope is pin pointed, so you can put it right up next to or upon the surface. Do the bars use a steel Nitto shim by chance ? If so I'd begin there. I'd also check with the headset cups, top and bottom, pressed against the head tube where the cups are inserted. I always use some grease for the cups, but who knows what the installer did. Ditto on Ted's suggestion to dismantle and grease the stem inside of the expander bolt, everything ! Aluminum next to steel often makes noise without some kind of buffer. 

You don't need any skill to use the scope, just point it near or on the target and listen. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-63691.html

[Ryan]

That scope sounds like a great idea

[Brian Turner]

From my experience with ticking in the bars, saddle, pedals, etc. it has usually happened after my bike has been ridden through a rainstorm, or if it has been transported on the car through the rain. Water can force little bits of grit and grime into places where they can cause annoying creaks and ticks afterwards while riding.

My solution has always been to remove all the components I suspect the noise is located, thoroughly clean and re-grease or add other lubricants. Sometimes it takes some investigation since what is causing the noise may present itself in another location due to how steel frames flex when pedaling. For example, what may seem like a seatpost tick could actually be coming from the saddle or saddle rails.

Brian
Lex KY

[Patrick Moore]

I'd never heard of mechanics' stethoscopes; thanks for bringing them up. But question: most creaks and clicks on bikes occur only when riding. How do you use one of these while on the bike? I think in particular of bottom bracket and seatpost noises. (And I can imagine the looks you'd get riding along earnestly listening to your headset with a stethoscope. You'd have to wear a white lab coat.)

And +1 for threadless stems with multi-bolt bar clamps for very wide or high or swept-back bars; I much prefer how quill stems look (well, unless they're raised very high) but sometimes they're not up to the job.

[Johnny Alien]

I've grown to love the faceplate stems but it did take awhile. The classic quill look is very nice. To me the benefits outweigh the ever so slight loss of beauty. They just make more sense and reduce some flex with the sweptback bars.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

The shop called to say the bike was done. I headed over and the young mechanic had it. I asked him what the source of the problem was. “I don’t know,” he said. Sigh. I asked him to tell me what he did. He took out the stem, tightened everything down again. He found that the headset was loose, so he tightened that too (and mashed the headset cup or spacer or whatever in the process). He bounced it off the ground and it had the satisfying sound of a well-aired basketball. No other noises. My uncontested favorite mechanic took it out for a test ride, threw around the front end as much as he could and could not recreate that ticking. So, tentatively, we might have fixed it. I’ll get some time on it this weekend and see.

I’m sure the headset mashing should bug me but at this point I don’t care. My bikes are starting to show wear and as long as THEY RIDE WITHOUT STRANGE TICKING I’m good with it. We’ll age together. 

[Ryan]

Leah

I will feel somewhat vindicated if the loose headset was the issue, although John and probably Garth might have mentioned it too. But I wasn't blowing smoke out of my ass when I brought it up because I have had that experience. And a loose headset on a loaded bike going downhill in the rolling parts of Manitoba is NOT something I'd want to repeat. I had CKs installed for 2 of my customs at Riv HQ. I'm not going to say these are the holy grail but so far so good. Also so far so good is the headset cobbled together from various Tange loose-bearing bits by my late , mechanically resourceful partner on my old Peugeot. Of course, it is only so far so good...stuff happens and they go out of adjustment

That being said, sounds like some brute force was applied to your headset. However...if this truly fixes your issue then I'm happy for you.  It'd be great if  the Platypus whisperer could work on your bikes all the time but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

[Ted Durant]

On Friday, October 4, 2024 at 4:43:09 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

He found that the headset was loose, so he tightened that too (and mashed the headset cup or spacer or whatever in the process).

It's worth noting that, while the frames ship with headsets, they aren't installed. Despite trying to be careful about installation, I have found on all three of my Sams that the FSA headsets seem to loosen up pretty quickly after initial installation, and the linear bearings seem to want the adjustable surface to be pretty tight, tighter than normal ball bearing headsets. 

That said, I wouldn't describe the sound of a loose headset as "ticking", it's more like "clunking" and is readily felt and seen by applying the front brake and pushing the bike forward and back.

And I would be irate if a shop mechanic handed back my bike with a mangled part. My headset locknuts are bit scuffed but I only have myself to blame :-)

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Paul Donald]

My new thoughts on my particular iteration of the OP are that it might be the stem flexing in the steerer tube. While I did use a shim with my Bosco/Technomic 26mm x 100 stem, I don't recall any clicking. The noise was quite pronounced when I switched to a Tosco/Tallux 25.4 x 110. I could see a subtle movement at the junction of stem and headset (and thought it a loose headset - it wasn't). When I lazily re-inserted my stem after it was out, and left it sitting at least an inch higher (or more) than usual, the clicking was gone. The stem now sits with the maximum height marker about 1" down from the top of the headset, before now it was at least twice that. Once I got used to the flex in the system of long quill stems and long bars I like it. But perhaps that flex they have means the deeper the quill inserted, the greater the chance of the stem knocking against the headset. 

[Leah Peterson]

Ted, I’ve had the loose clunking headset on my Betty Foy and your description is my memory of it. 

I got 19 miles in this morning. At first, everything was blissfully quiet and sturdy. By mile 12 the ticking came back. Not as bad, but it’s there. Remember in the video when I applied pressure to the left grip and could initiate the sound? Now it’s in the right grip. I can’t do it consistently and there doesn’t seem to be correlation with weight on the bars. I did throw that bike around heartily today. I took it on a wooded trail with tons of tree roots to bash over and inclines to stand up and pull on the bars. 

It’s just so frustrating. I’m worried there’s a more sinister problem, like in the head tube/steerer. Like, please not the frame. I can replace any component and will do so with gladness, but please let my frame be ok. It’s my #1 favorite bike and it’s so special.

Joe thinks maybe a new headset. I wonder if I should spring for new bars and stem. 

Buying new things to address unknown problems with old things…sounds expensive. But I’d do it if I knew it would fix the ticking.

L

On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:50 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Peter White]

Leah,

My wife and I both ride Rivendell frames. She has an Atlantis, and I have a Rambouillet. They both ride wonderfully. The frame geometry is excellent. But they both had the same issues with the steerer tube machining and head tube machining that all Rivendell frames have, except for the custom frames. The ends of the head tube are not exactly perpendicular to the geometric axis of the head tube, and the fork crowns are not precisely machined so that the headset parts don't always line up correctly. Take your bike to an experienced mechanic who has the appropriate tools to machine the head tune and the fork crown so that the headset components are in the correct alignment. Then your bike will really shine.

Email me directly and I'll try to find a shop that can fix this for you.

p...@peterwhitecycles.com

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Peter White

[Ryan]

Good Luck Leah...hopefully Peter finds a good shop for you; sounds like the current shop is a bit hit-or-miss

[Jay]

"My bikes are starting to show wear and as long as THEY RIDE WITHOUT STRANGE TICKING I’m good with it. We’ll age together. "

Love it!

[Leah Peterson]

Peter White has entered the chat 🤩 🥰.

I will email you, Peter, and thank you so much.

So, tonight I decided to get to the bottom of this by doing one thing at a time. First thing I’m doing: remove that stem and put in a new one. The one I have is a Tallux (I misstated before saying it was Technomic). I pulled it and found an extra tall Technomic that I put in instead (it’s the only other stem I had). I will ride tomorrow and see if I can get tics but it seems pretty good right now from the short test I gave it.

If the noise continues, I’ll take the Bille bar from my mermaid bike and put it in the red Platy. If after it gets a new stem and new bar, it still makes the sound, then it’s much more sinister, right?

Meanwhile, I’ll email Peter because I’d like to know more about what he’s discussed.

L

On Oct 5, 2024, at 6:10 PM, Peter White <peter...@gmail.com> wrote:



Leah,

My wife and I both ride Rivendell frames. She has an Atlantis, and I have a Rambouillet. They both ride wonderfully. The frame geometry is excellent. But they both had the same issues with the steerer tube machining and head tube machining that all Rivendell frames have, except for the custom frames. The ends of the head tube are not exactly perpendicular to the geometric axis of the head tube, and the fork crowns are not precisely machined so that the headset parts don't always line up correctly. Take your bike to an experienced mechanic who has the appropriate tools to machine the head tune and the fork crown so that the headset components are in the correct alignment. Then your bike will really shine.

Email me directly and I'll try to find a shop that can fix this for you.

p...@peterwhitecycles.com

On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 4:29 PM Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ted, I’ve had the loose clunking headset on my Betty Foy and your description is my memory of it. 

I got 19 miles in this morning. At first, everything was blissfully quiet and sturdy. By mile 12 the ticking came back. Not as bad, but it’s there. Remember in the video when I applied pressure to the left grip and could initiate the sound? Now it’s in the right grip. I can’t do it consistently and there doesn’t seem to be correlation with weight on the bars. I did throw that bike around heartily today. I took it on a wooded trail with tons of tree roots to bash over and inclines to stand up and pull on the bars. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CA%2BD%3DXm_bm-VVVFaWub4r1EigerHB5eFoxn8cXv%3DPEnmrJND%3D%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dirt Toad]

Sorry for the reply or question here. I suppose I’m having trouble accessing the groups post function or reply function. I just joined the group. Is there a waiting period before I can post or message sellers direct? Sorry if this is super random / not relevant in reply to your post 

On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 5:18 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Leah Peterson]

Hi Dirt Toad! (Feels like I’m saying an insult but you didn’t give a name…)

It does take time for admin to let you through. With the New Yorker article I imagine there’s a lot of new profiles for admin to screen. Is that how you found Riv/this group? 

I’ll email Jim and see if he will put you through so you can start posting.

Best,

Leah

On Oct 6, 2024, at 2:19 AM, Dirt Toad <dirtto...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

I believe Peter is referring to shop that has an 'alignment table'.  A good frame builder would have one too.

I would suggest Shierk's Bike Shop in East Earl PA, but that may be a bridge too far for you.   They are in the PA Dutch county.   They do not have an internet presence so telephone is the main method of communication.  They are quite good at real mechanical work, they extended my steerer tube notch 15mm with a dremel tool and charged only $10.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Liz Tilton]

I’m impressed with your ability to get down to it, Leah… even if you don’t turn up a solution (yet), the fact that you can interchange all of those parts on your own makes me wish I could do the same thing. Maybe that’s why ticks come to us…so our problem-solving muscles exercise.. 

Please keep updating your progress!

Liz in Cincinnati

Sent with delight from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2024, at 9:32 AM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Leah

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[Mathias Steiner]

I've had the clicking on several of my bikes.. should have said, "been having" because it's still going on here and there.
You should try it on an aluminum bike, those fat round Cannondale tubes of the 90s really add a reverb quality to it ;)

I HATES noises, and this is one of the worst, being inconsistent.

All my bikes have old-style stems. I'll say that the adapters to the 'ahead'-style stems have not given me the same trouble, but I've only got them on bikes I don't ride much at the moment.

The thing that fixed it for me on one of the bikes was as already described: Take the stem out of the steerer tube, clean the inside of that so you know there's no grit in it, put a little grease in there, then take apart the stem/bolt/wedge, clean and grease all that, and re-assemble. Problem solved, for months, and it may be coming back on my 'dale tourer.

For me it's never been the sleeve, or the connection between the bar and the stem. Always the stem/head tube interface.
I expect the long lever arm of our Riv-approved stem/bar combos don't help. I ride the 46 and 48 cm version of the noodle mostly.

Good luck!

cheers -m

[Mathias Steiner]

>> wish I could do the same thing

Ah, but you can!

It's a matter of perseverance and being systematic, not of strength or secret knowledge.
It's also a pain in the neck but worth it, like bicycle riding itself.

The most important tool is a second (or 7th, ahem) bicycle, so you're not under the gun.

"What one fool can do, another fool can do."

Richard Feynman

cheers -m

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

I also believe Peter was suggesting having the head tube 'faced".  This removes a small amount of head tube at the top & bottom of the tube, which makes the top and bottom surfaces parallel to each other and perpendicular to the steerer tube. 

Most shops have the tool to do this and once the steerer tube/fork is removed and the headset fixed cups are removed from the head tube, it is a 10 minute job to face it.   

If you do this, you might consider replacing the headset with a Tange one with cylindrical (needle) bearings for the bottom bearings.  This increases the headset stiffness and may help reducing the motion between the steerer tube and the head tube

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Matti]

I have a Sam Hillborne and noticed a headset problem when climbing and applying upper body force to the bars... It was a distinct fore and aft movement that could be felt (but not heard) and it was hard to duplicate the sensation when bike was static on the floor while rocking the bike back and forth with front brake applied.  I tried multiple times to adjust the headset, with no luck.  I finally brought the bike into a shop and they adjusted the headset, telling me it was loose.  So far it seems the problem is fixed, but if it comes back, I'll see if the head tube needs machining/alignment recommended by Peter White.  I think that process is considered standard practice for frame prep in some shops: https://analogcycles.com/pages/frame-prep 

[Garth]

The head tube facing is supposed to be at the time of manufacture, along with the reaming and tapping of the threads. If the factory can't comprehend it, then it's up to the retailer to do this at no additional charge. I'm surprised how it's being accepted as normal, acceptable or even expected. That work is part of what you're paying for with a new frame. Charging extra would be, to me, unscrupulous. And that's that.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Garth stated; " The head tube facing is supposed to be at the time of manufacture...".   I think we all agree, but I'm not sure if it isn't done, it's 'unscrupulous'.  I think most mass produced frames are faced/chased by the manufacturer.

What I think is poor quality,  is whoever assembled Leah's Platy (RBW??) may not have faced the HT.  It's a shame, since it is 10 minute operation if done on a bare frame, but probably a 1 hour job after the frame is assembled, with removing the stem, disconnecting cables, remove the fixed cups and then put it all back together.

Leah might want to ask whoever assembled it, if the HT was faced, along with the BB shell.  Maybe it was.   If it was, then it could be removed from being a cause.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

I guess we’ll never know. It came from Riv, and it was their sample for their 1st gen Platypuses. It was assembled at a Vegas shop that was heavily racing/roadbike oriented. The mechanic is no longer there and I don’t remember if those were the days when Riv was still doing frame prep. This tic on the stem is new and I’ve had the bike nearing 4 years. Can it show up as an issue 4 years later?

The 2nd Platy came from Analog, and since someone posted that Analog DOES do frame prep, I’ll likely never worry about that one. The newest purple Platy was done here, and to make the Ignite Components stuff work they had to “face the bottom bracket” and it was a real challenge to get those cranks and bottom bracket to work on my frame. Maybe they went ahead and faced the head tube while they were at it? I don’t know!

On Oct 6, 2024, at 10:29 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Garth stated; " The head tube facing is supposed to be at the time of manufacture...".   I think we all agree, but I'm not sure if it isn't done, it's 'unscrupulous'.  I think most mass produced frames are faced/chased by the manufacturer.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/92730b9d-01c3-4bdd-acd5-77fcc5b503c6n%40googlegroups.com.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Based on the history of the 3 Platys, facing the HT on the one from Vegas (assuming this is the ticing one) may be a good idea based on what Peter White mentioned. 

You may want to replace the headset also since they will drive out the existing fixed cups to do the facing and your local shop apparently mangled  the adjustable cup.  The original headset in your other 2 Platys appear to work ok if the HT faced, so buying a new one should work.

The other unknown is the alignment of the steerer tube in the fork crown, as Peter pointed out   This could be checked/measured for perpendicularity when they do the facing since the fork & steerer tube will be out of the frame and can easily be checked.   Ask the list members how to measure the alignment of the steerer tube in the fork crown and what to do if it is not square.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[brendonoid]

"The ends of the head tube are not exactly perpendicular to the geometric axis of the head tube, and the fork crowns are not precisely machined so that the headset parts don't always line up correctly. Take your bike to an experienced mechanic who has the appropriate tools to machine the head tune and the fork crown so that the headset components are in the correct alignment. Then your bike will really shine."

This needs to be in bold, pinned to the top of the forum somewhere. I love RBW so much but the QC even on frames they've 'prepped' in my experience has been woeful.

[Ryan Frahm]

I have to agree with Brendon. Though I think we’ve kinda gone down an interesting path of diagnostics. The bike had no issues for years and thousands of miles. Makes me not think it is something deeper like a facing issue. I would likely do a new headset just because the mechanical mangled the other one. 

I had that same described ticking with my Bosco bars. Swapped them for Tosco bars (no sleeve) and the ticking was gone. Tried the Bosco on my Clem, ticking. Swapped the bars for an Albatross and no ticking. At the time, I read several comments of people with the dreaded ticking with sleeved bars. I believe I even emailed Riv. I don’t remember if they are the ones that told me or I read it elsewhere about using Loctite in the sleeve. 

Anyway, it was silent for a short time after the Boeshield treatment. Now, I believe it needs some parts clean (then drying overnight ) to get that out and then blue Loctite, again drying overnight. Loosening the stem clamp or completely removing the bars to do both. Worth a shot I think!

I do feel for you, Leah. That ticking noise could have driven me crazy!

[Mike Rossi]

Rivendell is very clear on their website as to why they don’t face and chase frames. They state that they will do it if asked for $30. I’ve done my own bottom bracket shells on two of my bikes that use a cup and cone style bottom bracket, but I’ve been fortunate enough to not have an issue with head tubes. Best wishes.

Mike

On Oct 7, 2024, at 4:16 AM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Leah

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/65409b3e-aa11-4739-ad96-a363987162dbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Brian Forsee]

I recently had a tick develop out of the blue on my 1989 schwinn probe commuter. Nitto stem with the KT bars. I uninstalled and reinstalled the stem and it fixed it. I think the wedge may have been slightly loose and got bound up within the fork steerer.

Little noises like that drive me nuts so i was happy to have it easily resolved. Good luck Leah! 

Brian

[Mathias Steiner]

On the facts & observations side, we now have one clicking handlebar sleeve, and two (maybe three?) instances of clicking being resolved by cleaning, greasing, and reinstalling the stem into the steerer tube.

We've had zero reports of clicking resolved by headset work, though it's a reasonable possibility.

I'd exhaust the first two possiblities before going to the trouble of squaring and facing a head tube that may or may not need it.
I vote "not need" because it was fine for years.

[Brian Campbell]

Given that the issue was solved by lubricating the bars previously (as mentioned above ^^^^) I would try a bar swap first. If you have bars that are 25.4 and have  no sleeve on hand that are not being used they would be my first choice.

If not these are an inexpensive way to diagnose the issue and it seems you are good with swapping bars on your own.

https://www.amazon.com/Handlebar-Handlebars-Replacement-Component-Aluminum/dp/B0CSMTRRGF/ref=sr_1_24?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Gw9_I8wrRr8dt9fq-LybtGUhzpjQ77_hjcQ87kbcXteYmQ0rXAWD5AHf8MLTZOdNNKbNJidDVMEgzd6f9pUhb1Lgu10Gwkdc6-oHIyuz9VIYGGggknQvBjBVt84Cmt3TtFfFVNW5viPWW3B07zPRqBwYAdLhEzpsN4MDY3qda-6Xf1CjPJebRrytcS0BMn54xuf8Ls7msIbzY6u7VjaVAAtrFnKz46KT_Wqsn8T4PcmTNoldGOa_wYanGPDNg9PGI4dTd82Tz9PvRtArKDHtTfEZ23NoLW_8wjWHGpIAwDs.TgSuzlhrtFRpmoiL2BVPW9j9kvJu7GTlSg_f7Hrlnmw&dib_tag=se&keywords=25.4%2Bsilver%2Bhandle%2Bbar&qid=1728321716&sr=8-24&th=1&psc=1

Good luck!

[Leah Peterson]

I don’t remember if I updated here…I had a Nitto Tallux 12 cm stem on my bike that I pulled this weekend. I had a tall Nitto 280 mm 10 cm stem that I wasn’t using, so in order to eliminate one thing at a time and reevaluate, that’s the plan. I rode 6 miles today and nothing. Everything feels solid, no noise. The bars are up too high, though. I want to lower them but that stem is slammed all the way in the head tube and can’t go lower. Because they are higher and closer than my normal setup, I can’t yank on them and put my weight on them like I normally do. So they might be behaving because they are not under duress. 

Also of note. I would get a now-and-then vibration that sounded like maybe my metal front fender. It would happen at high speeds, which is usually hammering on a club ride. That was non-existent today. Wondering if it’s not the fender and instead something in that head tube/stem interface…

I really hate this.

Leah 

On Oct 7, 2024, at 2:55 PM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Given that the issue was solved by lubricating the bars previously (as mentioned above ^^^^) I would try a bar swap first. If you have bars that are 25.4 and have  no sleeve on hand that are not being used they would be my first choice.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/70bda97d-f858-444b-a3d7-7b719a742d12n%40googlegroups.com.

[Chris Halasz]

Leah 

I'm not saying you could have been, I'm wondering if you are aware that you are a first class bonafide Systems Engineer, what with the focused and detailed fault tree analysis and fish-bone diagram you're constructing. 

(About the possibility of your being a card-carrying obsessive compulsive cyclist, nothing unique about that here on this list). 

Enjoying every tic of this discussion, 

Chris 

[Ray Varella]

I’m going to second what Chris said, that is excellent scientific protocol…change one thing at a time so once you solve your issue you will be reasonably certain what solved it. 

Think, plan, do, evaluate. 

Ray

[Leah Peterson]

Ray and Chris, thank you! You make a girl feel good!!!

On Oct 8, 2024, at 12:37 AM, Ray Varella <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m going to second what Chris said, that is excellent scientific protocol…change one thing at a time so once you solve your issue you will be reasonably certain what solved it. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6f460ba3-5e4f-4230-8a69-b73a978fac1cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Noah Hirschl]

Enjoying following this thread and the process of discovery! (Sorry that it is at your expense, Leah :)). I had the dreaded ticking on some sleeved choco bars with a Nitto quill (not on a riv, a vintage trek). It was only when I leveraged one side of the bars. I put drop bars on the bike and it went away, but who knows it that’s the leverage change or the new bars!

Also, seeing the reference to slamming the stem in the head tube in the last post, just in case you haven’t seen it before, see attached diagram from Sheldon’s site about potential dangers of that (which I mention because I saw it for the first time just a few weeks ago)

Noah in Brookline, VT

[Leah Peterson]

Noah, I did NOT KNOW THIS. And that new stem is slammed way down in there. I have a Faceplater coming and will install it immediately. Thanks for this but also 😱.

Although we still don’t know that it’s the stem, and in fact, Will thinks it’s the sleeve on the bars. He decided to ask Nitto about that sleeve and probably sent the video of my ticking bike. He emailed today and I will include this because so many people are reporting problems with the sleeved Nitto bars:

HI Leah,

OK, I heard straight from the source, Yoshikawa-san himself. He says: "If you hear a sound in the center of the handlebar, apply a drop of Krazy Glue on each side of the 40mm long hole in the outer pipe.
This usually eliminates the sound. Do not put oil in it, it is not good.”

 

I think the 40mm long hole is the sleeve. Try it out! I will, too. 

-will

Of course I already put oil in there so maybe my experiment will be a dud. I want to order a new steel bar with no sleeve. 

Leah

On Oct 8, 2024, at 12:01 PM, Noah Hirschl <nthi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Enjoying following this thread and the process of discovery! (Sorry that it is at your expense, Leah :)). I had the dreaded ticking on some sleeved choco bars with a Nitto quill (not on a riv, a vintage trek). It was only when I leveraged one side of the bars. I put drop bars on the bike and it went away, but who knows it that’s the leverage change or the new bars!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6eb0dda7-01d6-4bbe-bda4-3a52485f8b16n%40googlegroups.com.

<IMG_0985.png>

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Just to amplify what Noah pointed out on the internal butting in the head tube, if you have the stem QUILL all the way down, then you need to raise the stem so the expander bolt is above the butting. 

If raising the stem quill, to clear the internal butting, results in the bars being too high, then you need a stem with a Shorter Quill, but the same stem extension.   Per the 2019 catalog, Nitto makes the Technomic stem ("NTC") in QUILL LENGTHS of 150mm, 225mm, and 280mm.  The RBW site shows only the 225mm version (Tallux).

Also, the 40mm hole Will and Nitto mentions, may be a slot in the sleeve in the center of the sleeve, NOT the ends of the sleeve.  This would NOT be visible with the bar in the stem.  You may want to slide the bar out of the stem to verify if the slot exists.

If your new face platter stem has a shorter quill than your existing stem, the face platter stem may solve the slammed stem problem.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

John, 

The initial stem was the Tallux 12 cm, 225 long. 

The stem I had in the parts box and just installed is Nitto, 10 cm, 280 mm. That 280 was bought before I started club riding and wanting the bars lower. That 280  is slammed in the the steerer now. I’ll raise it before I ride it, but that Faceplater in 225 should arrive soon. And when it does, I’m going to find that slot and put Krazy glue in there. And thanks for pointing out that there would be a slot! 

To all of you: what would I do without you? I’d be out there with my ticking and loose headsets with my wedges fighting for purchase in the narrowing steerer! A whole mess out here. 

Also, why don’t any of you live here. I could use a mentor over here!

Leah

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3a751409-d149-4860-a3b1-b9b7e815521en%40googlegroups.com.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Either the Tallux 225mm quill stem or the Faceplater 225mm quill stem will raise the expander bolt by 55mm (280 - 225) or the same bar height.   This will allow the expander bolt to be above the butted section.   See if the noise goes away just by having the 225mm stem above the butted section.

If you desire, you probably could lower either 225mm stems by 20mm and still be above the butted section.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

You said you are getting a Faceplatter stem presumably from RBW (CR60-3T).   Be aware this stem has the stem angled upward at 100° vs the 73° angle used on the Al Technomic and all road type stems.    If you insert both stems the same amount, the Facepaltter stem gives a higher bar height than the Technomic.

The 100° angle increases the bar height and requires the Faceplatter stem to be further inserted into the steerer tube compared to 73° angled stem.   The exact amount of additional bar height depends on the stem length you ordered.   If you supply the stem length, it's an easy calculation to determine the additional bar height compared to a 73° angle stem

Alternatively, you can put the bars where you want and ensure the quill expander bolt is not in the butted section of the steerer tube.  Read Sheldon's instruction on expanding the bolt in the unbutted section and then lowering the stem until the bolt contacts the upper the butted section.  

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Garth]

One can compare stem heights with this web tool. The height refers to how high the quill(the vertical portion) is above the top of the headest. 

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

A Nitto 225mm quill Faceplatter stem with a 135mm stem length is equivalent to a standard Nitto Technomic stem with a 289mm quill and a 139mm stem.  Here is a comparison with your 2 Technomics

                                          Quill length   stem length

FacePlatter 225/135       289 (Eff)         139 (Eff)

Technomic 225                225                  100

Technomic 280                280                  120

Also the Faceplatter raises the bar height by 61mm compared to a 225mm quill Technomic if both the 225mm quill Technomic and the 225mm quill Faceplatter stems are inserted the same amount.

I calculated these results using the 100° stem angle and a 135mm stem length for the Faceplatter and a 73° stem angle for the Technomic.  The Faceplatter looks like a Technomic 280/120 stem with 19mm longer stem

It looks like the Faceplatter stem results in a higher bar height and the bars further out than either of the 2 Technomics.    The higher bar height may help with the 19mm longer bar extension compared to your Technomic 280.

Any questions

John Hawrylak

Woodstown  

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Well, I don’t do this kind of math. You’re saying my new 225 mm stem is going to be 289 mm? That will be too tall. But I can’t see how it can be off that much, even given the angle. I understand that the angle will make the reach shorter. I do not understand how the angle makes the quill TALLER.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Let's try this explanation and 1 definition

When I say a Technomic stem, I mean a quill stem with a stem length which is at an angle of 73° with the quill or -17° with respect to a line perpendicular to the quill.  It is the standard road bike stem which makes a drop bar horizontal even though the stem is in a head tube angled at about 73° to the horizontal.  Your 2 Technomic stems are this type

A 225mm quill Face Platter (FP) stem with a 135mm stem length puts the stem clamp (hence your bars) in the same position as a Technomic with a 289mm quill and a 139mm stem length, due to the 100° angle of the stem tube from the quill to the clamp.     If on a work bench, you placed your 280mm Technomic with a 100 mm stem length on top of the 225mm FP stem you would see the following:

The FP stem clamp is 9mm higher than the 280mm  Technomic

The FP stem clamp is 39mm further out than the 280mm  Technomic 

The top of the quill on the 280mm Technomic is below the FP stem clamp by about 9mm,  even though the FP quill is 55mm less than Technomic 280mm quill

Does this help??     The math is geometry and trigonometry, with the dimensions and angles of the stems.

The bottom line is if you 'slam' the FP stem in the steerer tube (like your 280mm Technomic is currently) the bars will be 9mm higher and 39mm further out than the 280mm Technomic with a 100mm stem length.    Slamming a stem into the butted section of the steerer is a possible cause of the ticing since the expander bolt is not properly anchored.  

Additional questions are welcome.  Can provide distances for you 225mm Technomic with 120 stem length to compare to the placing on top of the FP stem.

You may want to raise your 280mm Technomic stem by 20mm to clear the butted section and see if the noise goes away.  I realize the bars will be higher than you want, but see if the noise goes away.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Moore]

I’ve found this device very helpful when comparing stems with different quills, angles, and extensions: http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

[Garth]

Johan and Leah, it would be more relatable to just put the numbers of the given stems into the stem calculator I posted above. For example, I entered the 120mm, -17degree Tallux @ say a 100mm height(from the top of the headset to the top of the quill). Then the 135mm +10degree Faceplater at the same height. The head tube angle is 69.5degrees.I posted a screenshot of the result. The lowest insertion height of the top of the stem on the Tallux/Technomic is 25mm(slammed).

You can do the same with any combo of stems at different heights, but 25mm(slammed) is the minimum height it can be.

On a Nitto 225mm quill stem, the Quill has125mm of range from minimum insertion to max insertion. It's 150mm from minimum insertion to top of quill. From here :https://www.thebikesmiths.com/products/nitto-ntc225?

[Johnny Alien]

This has been an ongoing issue with me in regards to what Rivendell sells. In the early days the headtube was standard and getting the bars up high required a longer stem but now they have geometry that already brings the bar up high so the need for extra long stems isn't as high. The fact that everything they sell is still super tall bums me out to a degree because I would like to buy from them but it just doesn't work for me. I end up with them slammed down like whats discussed here and the bars are still too high.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Garth

I agree the tool is a good way to go as long as you provide the correct "Height", the distance the quill is above the headset locknut.

Also, I believe Leah;' 280mm Technomic stem length is 100mm, not the 120mm you show.  When you put 100mm for the 280 Technomic, and you assume your 100mm of exposed quill for both , you get the FP is 20mm longer and 61mm higher.   The height agrees with the 61mm I stated earlier. 

If you assume each is inserted to MIL (65mm), an exposed quill of 215mm for the FP and 160mm for the 280 Tech, you get the FP stem clamp is 37mm longer and 9mm higher.  Again, about the same as I stated, if you lay 1 stem on the other.

Leah, what is the distance of the quill of the 280 Tech from the top of the headset to the top of quill.   280 - that distance is the max amount the quill can be inserted before hitting the steerer tube butting.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ 

On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 4:37:13 PM UTC-4 Garth wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Mmy 2016 Matthews dirt road road has a very high stack and to lower the bar to very slightly below saddle height I swapped the -17* 10 cm stem for a -25* 9 cm stem which gives me about the same reach but with the bar about 10-15 mm lower for better weight distribution, or so it feels to me, with very similar reach. It looks “radical” but the bar is just a wee bit lower than the saddle.

I realize that this is easier to do with a clamp-on stem than with a quill stem, since clamp-ons are reversable top/bottom.

Per the JimG site, the bar is 13 mm lower and 10 cm closer with the shorter, lower stem and the bar now feels more like those on my road bikes while giving slightly more relaxed bar positions compared to the road bikes.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 3:04 PM Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

This has been an ongoing issue with me in regards to what Rivendell sells. In the early days the headtube was standard and getting the bars up high required a longer stem but now they have geometry that already brings the bar up high so the need for extra long stems isn't as high. The fact that everything they sell is still super tall bums me out to a degree because I would like to buy from them but it just doesn't work for me. I end up with them slammed down like whats discussed here and the bars are still too high.

Patrick Moore, grimly and conscientiously bottom-trimming in ABQ, NM.

 

[Patrick Moore]

I forgot to add that I’ve successfully cut stem quills with a cheap electric jigsaw and, indeed, with a plain hacksaw, fine-tuning the angle of the clamp shoulder with a coarse file.

30 years ago Salsa used to make custom quill stems for affordable prices; I ordered at least 2. Can moderately priced custom quill stems still be found?

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 4:00 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

… I realize that this is easier to do with a clamp-on stem than with a quill stem, since clamp-ons are reversable top/bottom.

[Leah Peterson]

Alright.

Let’s recap. 

Leah hears tics in the bars. Sounds like bar/stem interface. Lubes around the sleeve, in the interface, re-lubes the stem inside the steerer. Goes on ride, tics come back. Bike shop tries, doesn’t find source but tightens loose headset, sends bike home with me. Tics come back. I decide to change one thing at a time to get to the source. I pull Tallux stem, put in Technomic extra-tall 280 mm stem. Seems quiet. BUT, the stem is slammed, and the wedge is hitting into the steerer tube. I find out this is A Bad Thing, and I order a Nitto Faceplater stem, a 135/225. Will gets word from Nitto that we should NOT use lube in/around the sleeve. We should put Krazy Glue in that channel in the sleeve of the bar.

Today, I take bike and new stem too the dreamy mechanic at the shop. He reevaluates headset and it looks great. He tries to pull the Technomic and…it is STUCK. He gets it out, puts adhesive in sleeve, gets stem and bar set up and now I have the bike.

I have learned a few things here, and the most valuable is that you can’t just have stems whatever willy nilly way you want. Too high and you can deform stuff because the wedge isn’t far enough in the head tube. Too low and your wedge can’t get purchase on the narrowing steel walls. Too low can also get you stuck. 

I work the next couple of days but am hoping to get some miles in and listen for tics. I don’t know if I like the new Faceplater stem yet. The angle is new, the height is more than I anticipated. The 90-190 is out of stock but that might be the winner for this bike. I am back in the hand-wringing and angstiness. Because when I change something major on my bike it’s a small crisis. “It won’t be the saaammmme” and other such whininess. 

But to keep me from totally despairing over THAT bike, I decided to mar the beauty of the purple Platypus. Please enjoy this lovely fall photo, where I had lifted my Platypus up onto the curb, next to this brilliant orange oak:

And you know what happened next.

Don’t worry, those are just custom anodized Paul levers and Spank Oozy pedals. 😱

Thank you to everyone who has been trying to hard to help this hopeless case, which is me. I am learning a lot here. I am also learning that I am dangerous to my bikes…but I keep trying.

Leah

On Oct 10, 2024, at 6:07 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Leah

Good recap.   I would RAISE the stem 20mm to 30mm to ensure it is NOT contacting the butted section of the steerer tube.  Your ticing seem to occur with 'slammed' stems and the stem wedge in the butted section may be the cause of the ticing 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Doug H.]

Those are just new "features" on your beautiful Paul levers and Spank pedals. Now they really are one of a kind!  

Doug

Sarcastic in Athens Ga

[Johnny Alien]

That 90 degree stem RIvendell sells is very nice.

[Joe Bernard]

We're bordering here on losing track of the information provided. The very tall stem slammed into the butted section of the headtube is a one-off temporary swap onto Leah's Raspberry Platy, she was not previously running stems dropped that low on any of her bikes. Not the cause of the tic-ing. 

Joe Bernard 

[Leah Peterson]

Joe is right. That tic happened initially, using the old stem, which was not slammed. I think they fix is in the sleeve, and now that the sleeve is glued, we will see.

I would love the 90-190 but Riv is out of stock. I may order it and put this 225 on my son’s Clem. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2024, at 12:02 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

We're bordering here on losing track of the information provided. The very tall stem slammed into the butted section of the headtube is a one-off temporary swap onto Leah's Raspberry Platy, she was not previously running stems dropped that low on any of her bikes. Not the cause of the tic-ing. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3880ef13-1459-4570-b59c-9eb1b5875ef6n%40googlegroups.com.