The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Joe Bernard]

Grant mentioned ebikes again on the BLAHG, and even made a faint reference to a possible future where they would sell one. I know it's not his thing, but he was discussing it in reference to a cycling industry gradually accepting that ebikes are here to stay.

So my question. If Rivendell put some bikes together with the latest mid-drive motors with 5 levels of pedal-assist available, would you buy one? We're talking about pedal bikes that can be ridden with low or no assist, not 'hit the throttle and hang on' like a scooter. I think a kitted Clem or Hunqapillar would be fun, plus useful as commuters.

[Orc]

Mopeds just won't stay dead, will they?   It's nice that this generation of them are battery-electrics, but an electric Rivespa will never displace any of my clutter of pushbikes.

-david parsons

[Joe Bernard]

Mopeds were slow motorcycles you could only ride by using the throttle. The pedals only existed to qualify it as non-licensed back in the day, you couldn't actually use it as a bicycle. So the comparison, while pithy, has nothing to do with the question I asked.

[Joe Bernard]

I should correct my original post after reading the BLAHG again: Grant references not thinking this would work for them. I implied they might possibly do it someday, which is not correct.

[panog]

A year ago it would be remarkable if I saw one ebike a month. Yesterday I saw three during the morning commute alone. They are not coming, they are here and when they become cheaper to buy there will be many, many more.
If ebiking makes cycling approachable to more people, I'd welcome it. More riders on the road means better infrastructure and better mainstream awareness for all of us, electrified or not.

[Tom M]

Precisely. And they are so much greener than scooters.

--Tom

[Philip Kim]

completely agree. i see more parents in the morning taking their kids to school by bike and they are usually on an e-bike in office clothes. makes sense - you want to drop your kids off and get to work on time, maybe not get too sweaty before getting into the office. then after work, could have a more leisurely bike ride back home. 

i am also of the mindset that the more bikes become convenient for non-enthusiasts and seen as a useful and viable mode of transportation, the better roadway infrastructure and interactions with cars and drivers will be.

if i wasn't into bikes and just needed something to get me around, i would pick up a faraday porteur.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 4:09:59 AM UTC-4, panog wrote:

[Brad]

I wouldn't buy one right now. But if I had mobility problems that prevented me from pedaling my bike, I'd seriously consider it.

I live in NYC and ebikes are everywhere, mostly being ridden by people delivering food. I live in Queens and commute into Manhattan by bike via the Williamsburg Bridge. In April 2019, the L train, the primary subway connecting Northern Brooklyn to Manhattan, will shut down for 15 months for repairs. The subway carries 250,000 straphangers a day. It's going to be a huge mess as the adjacent subways don't have the capacity to absorb the excess riders and traffic on the Williamsburg Bridge already moves slowly at rush hour. I expect the Williamsburg bridge bike lane to get crowded and it wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of riders discover ebikes as the easiest way to get to work. So, the train shut-down and ebike prices dropping and quality rising might be the series of events that pushes ebikes into the mainstream here. If it happens, it will be interesting to see how it affects cycling infrastructure here.

Brad

Queens

[Tim Gavin]

I don't see Rivendell as the shop you'd think of to go buy an e-bike.  

And I doubt that Riv would "put some bikes together with the latest mid-drive motors with 5 levels of pedal-assist available".  A mid-drive motor would wreck the aesthetics of the classic diamond frame that Riv celebrates, and the frame needs to be designed around the big mid-drive motor.  

A wheel-motor kit, while a less-efficient e-bike design, seems more like something Riv would do (as at least one listmember already has).  I could see Riv using a "Roscoe tube" to frame the battery, but not using the big TIG'ed plate required for a mid-drive.  

I work part-time at a shop that is one of the biggest e-bike dealers in the Midwest.  The shop's owner (3r-generation) embraced e-bikes early-on (about 5 years ago), and learned all the bugs and tricks.  So, customers drive in from 5 hours away to buy from him, because he carries a decent line-up and fully supports the e-bikes, electronics and all.  

Many shops struggle with e-bikes due to the electronics.  Early e-bikes definitely suffered from poor design and electrical glitches.  

Now, our best-selling e-bike models are European imports from Kalkhoff and Haibike, with the Bosch mid-drive kits.  Mid-drive seems to be the best design, but it's ugly.  One benefit of mid-drive is that it only works as pedal-assist; no throttle, no electric-only drive mode (aka moped).

Personally, I don't see myself using an e-bike any time soon.  But I agree that they are here, and that they serve needs for some people.  For some, they're a gateway to non-E cycling, and for others they're a way to keep riding after they couldn't on their own.  

I agree that some e-riders (most often those with throttle "e-mopeds") can be irresponsible, riding too fast on cycle paths.  

But I also agree that, if e-bikes are increasing ridership and facility usage, that will result in more and better cycling accommodations for all of us.

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[Deacon Patrick]

One of my less-than brilliant visions is to buy a pile of these stickers and put them on parked motorcycles in the area (I used Gran't link to the sticker factory to make up a prototype). I suppose e-bikes are quiet, but they haven't caught on here yet, knock on wood. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bob Lovejoy]

I hesitate a little to chime in because I recognize and agree, to some extent, with both sides of the thinking.

That said, I have an electric assist cargo bike, a somewhat cobbled together but perfectly functional Yuba Mundo and I will say that it is the most practical vehicle I have ever owned.  It lets me haul big loads, cover greater distances, get through traffic relatively easily, all the while still riding my bike!  It is only pedal assist, and I am rarely out of the "+1" assist range (out of +1 to +5).  Oh, it also lets me keep riding with a bad knee that is refusing to completely heal and that's a big deal to me.

So, advantages, and certainly not a complete list...

• Able to haul more comfortably.  In my case that is groceries, hardware, bikes and big boxes, etc.  It could just as easily be commute and work gear, child seats, etc.
  
• Able to cover longer distances reliably and without drama.  I had a 17-18 mile 1-way commute when I was in Denver, and though I am not proud of it, that was too much for me.  The one time I timed my ride to work, even on the giant Yuba, was 57 minutes, door-to-door, stopping at lights and all.
  
• When riding in traffic or other stop and go situations, I am better able to get up to speed quickly, bad knee and all, and that somehow helps convince cars that I am something akin to another vehicle.  Maybe coincidence, but I have had fewer close calls or signs of vehicle aggression when I am on the Yuba.  I suppose sheer mass has its place as well?!
  
• Big and/or long hills that might test me beyond respectability are not a worry.  On just a bike ride, bring on the tests.  But when going somewhere where I need to not smell and not look like I just came out of the gym, etc. the Yuba wins.
  
• And for all the reasons, if e-assist gets more people on bikes, then I believe it helps cross that tipping point where bikes are seen more as vehicles and not just for play, recreation, etc.
  

Maybe it is just my aging ways, although I understand why mountain bikers would want e-assist and to go faster and faster, that is not my thing and will not be.  The benefit I see in e-assist bikes is to make them more practical in a real, day-to-day world, to help make bikes seem more viable (to all ages) as an alternative to ever larger cars and trucks 

Anyway, I love my standard and amazing regular bikes and can still do a lot on them, even haul things with trailers, etc.  But having, using and riding the e-assist Yuba has been eye opening.

Not that I think Rivendell is the natural vendor for such things, by the way, but an e-assist, Clem-based cargo bike would be fine with me.

I will say, my Yuba uses a rear-wheel motor and it works perfectly well, though I know the mid-drives get high ratings.  That said, I can move my "kit" from bike to bike (and have), it puts less stress on the drivetrain, and mine is incredibly quiet and responsive.  

Just thoughts and a report of what I have found...

Bob Lovejoy

Galesburg, IL

[Orc]

Yes, that's what mopeds became (and it's what may be the future of this generation; there are already some /very/ scooter-looking electric mopeds out there that I occasionally see on the bike paths/locked up to bike racks in Portland.  The only thing keeping the electric mopeds from becoming scooters is that the energy density of batteries sucks dead bunnies through a straw and that as the batteries age the drivers will more and more likely need to pedal their way out of trouble.) The net of a billion lies (wikipedia) actually has a moderately honest recounting of the origin of the things, including some interesting photos.

-david parsons

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

We've experimented with putting bionx kits on a riv or two.  The utility factor can't be denied.  From an aesthetic factor....I ended up taking them off.  They were bionx aftermarket kits and they had excellent range, function etc etc. They were just too ugly for a Riv.

We recently got a demo Copenhagen wheel....

https://www.instagram.com/p/BT6-MCThI1S/?taken-by=yellowhausbicycles

Doesn't have the range but who-wee, does it make a different aesthetic statement.  I've ridden a lot of junky feeling e-bikes and this technology is at the top in terms of ride quality. Easily swapped out or from bike to bike too.  I can only imagine that as battery capacity continues to excel....this particular design (all-in-one battery/motor etc) will be the norm.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We won't sell eBikes ever--but that is not like me saying, "we won't do (pick your heinous thing)." Of course I know that I can speak for RBW as a whole, but at some point there's a diff btw my personal deathbed-honest opinion--which is generally on my sleeve--and something that falls under the general category of "what's good for Rivendell and the gang here, and the gang that I hope will take it all forward someday."

My persOPis that I will pedal as long as I can. If this is part of the "I shoot film when I don't have to email the photo or put it online immediately" me, then..OK, it is part of that. I don't see a perfect direct connexion, but there's not a total gap, either. To use the cliche but also to totally mean it literally, one of my best friends--the Sean guy in the green photo looking back over his shoulder as he coasts down the hill--is recovering from an eBike accident. If I was successful in attaching the image I sent to him last night, you can see the proof. I've ridden his. I hope he'll still go out with me on pedal rides when he recovers!

From a business POV--I feel slightly out of my element making "business" decisions--I think  it's enough in this age of strap-on eMotors--to provide bikes that allow it without funking up the frame ("funking" is a new great word--I hope I made it up) with something that looks jarring or has to be worked about in "pedal" mode.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 11:53:44 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

[panog]

In some strange way, e-cycling seems to address several of Grant's philosophies on what cycling ought to be. Comfort, broad use, accessibility, the whole "Just Ride" approach away from the marketed "racing " utopian approach of the later decades. Add to these the good feeling of increased speed, not having to get off and push the bike up a hill and overall the good feeling of not being overly moderated by one's physical limitations and you could clearly see why e-bikes are catching on.

RBW is faced with hard business realities either way, as this appears to be significantly broader than rim brakes vs. disks, barcons vs. STI, or 9-speed vs. 11-speed. Adapting to this technology involves financial engagement beyond perceived comfort levels and staying put could eventually shrink their nitch to an even tighter spectrum. To make things even more challenging, the recent RBW marketing direction of reducing bicycle ownership costs to attract more riders seems to be in polar opposites with the e-bike market trend of attracting more riders by allowing them to "buy" more comfort and performance and this appeal to the non-cycling enthusiasts is expected to become even more pronounced as e-drive prices fall due to supply and demand.

Personally, I like my pedaling the way it is and I dont see me on a e-bike any time soon, things being what they now are. Down the road, who knows? I do know that I immensely enjoy cycling and I like to keep at it until the end of the road, one way or another.

Pano

[Deacon Patrick]

My personal anticipatory frustration with e-MTBs is there is a certain, albeit basic and low, level of knowledge required to end up on certain trails __ miles in. This "filter" correlates with a certain quality of person -- one who tends to care for their surroundings, knows basics of navigation (at least until their GPS stops working), and has some general outdoor sensibility (again, the bar is fairly low here.). This compares with the ATV crowd, which more generally reflects the saying that the benefit of a 4x4 is you get stuck farther out. What happens to the person who doesn't know they can walk their e-MTB whose battery stops working 10 miles out, or who does know but hasn't the fitness required to do more than pedal slightly. Suddenly those mountains that took no effort to get into have a lot of vertical that wasn't earned. There is something to earning getting to certain places.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:53:44 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Grant Petersen]

Apologies for the confusing last eight words of my post. It was all fine up to them..and even I can't figure it out. Oh, language!

("...has to be worked out in 'pedal' mode.") Whaaa--?

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[Patrick Moore]

My goodness! How uncharitable! Mercy!

Patrick "LOL" Moore

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[Patrick Moore]

PS: I'll buy one to give to the wee little wanker who passed me this morning in a lifted black pickup with extraloud muffler and very little acceleration.

[iamkeith]

I haven't even read the blahg yet but will say that, as a reformed motorhead and perpetual mechanical tinkerer/hobbyist who found cycling as a redemption from more destructive pastimes, I'll admit to being both very intrigued by e-bikes and disgusted at the thought of seeing them on trails and in the wild.  Fortunately, my local land management agencies got proactive about this very early, and banned them from trails (over 99% of the land in the county where I live is state or federally owned). 

That doesn't mean I don't often think about building one out of a cheap and un-used frame, for street riding for fun's sake.  Heck, I even think about getting one of those cheap, loud, chinese gas motor kits.  I think it would be a great way to teach my son some mechanical skills.

Sounds like it's a mute point, but here's why I personally would NEVER consider buying a Rivendell e-bike:  When it comes to spending any significant amount of money, I'm attracted only to things that have long or indefinite lifespans, that won't become obsolete, that are "classic," and that I can see myself wanting to own for the rest of my life.   That is a Rivendell in a nutshell, to me.   

Even if they weren't still in their infancy, I think the necessary electric motor and battery technologies will continue to change and become obsolete.   And besides, what do you do with the battery when it's worn out, even if you can get a replacement? 

[iamkeith]

I meant "moot."

[Joe Bernard]

I don't want to get too far into the technical weeds here, but the Bafang mid-drive kits fit into the BB shell without any modifications to the frame. A Rosco Bubbe liftatube frame would match very well with one. Here's a pic of my new folder with the kit. Note Riv Sackville content!

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[Tim Gavin]

That's kinda neat.  I didn't realize there were any mid-drive kits that could be retrofitted to a normal BB.  All the mid-drive setups I've seen are big bricks.  But then, I'm not in the e-bike market (except for the new ones that go through our shop).

Still, it would be best if the battery were mounted low in the main triangle.  Like I said, a horizontal mid-tube (like on the Rosco Road bikes) seems like a nice place to frame that battery.

Riv's long chainstays also could provide vertical space behind the seat tube.

Obviously that's not an option on a folding bike like yours.  Yours seems pretty well-integrated, given the challenges.

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[Joe Bernard]

I also have a Haibike from Germany with a Yamaha mid-drive built into a dedicated ebike frame..this is the type you're seeing in your shop.

Here's a link to the place I got my folder, which will give you an idea how these kits fit on standard frames. My folder started with a small battery hanging from the saddle, but I added a rack and put the battery in a Trunksack so I could run my Carradice off the saddle. As you can see, the standard-style bikes use the water bottle mounts on the downtube so all the weight is centralized low on the frame. I like that everything else including wheels is normal bike parts.

https://lunacycle.com/

[Joe Bernard]

I'd just like to say I appreciate everyone's comments on this topic, and realize it's a touchy one for many. My goal isn't to hijack a Riv forum for ebike talk, I'm just chiming in about a topic that has come up several times recently on The Blahg. Ebikes are THE big discussion in the bicycle industry right now, and I obviously like fiddling with and riding them. But it's not for everybody and I respect that.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[Belopsky]

I would certainly ride a cargo bike with an electric motor

[Garth]

  
    Whatever floats your boat , enjoy the view .

[Mark in Beacon]

I-phones, e-bikes, o boy! I think any bike designed around a specific motor system will indeed become obsolete sooner than later. And so the 10-year-old bicycle in the back of the garage will have more in common with a computer sporting a floppy drive than a vintage Bridgestone XO-2. Though given the choice I suppose I would rather see an ebike come into existence if it eliminated a car being made. Are the days drawing near when the only place to shop for a "pedal-only" bicycle will be Leman's? Maybe they should distribute Clems...

I bike, You bike, 'e bikes, too. You scream, I scream...

[Corwin]

Hi -

At the outset, I should state, that I would not buy a bicycle with an electric motor.

I am not without experience in the world of electric vehicles (known as EVs in some circles). I think EVs are here to stay. I invested in Tesla. I currently drive a Nissan Leaf. I don't think a Leaf is realistic for more than a "go-to-the-grocery/around town car". I do not think eBikes have as much draw as EVs today. Possibly because so many people are terrified of entering traffic without their "cage" around them.

Namaste,


Corwin

[iamkeith]

So... sorry to change the subject, but.... I finally got around to reading the pertinent  Blahg entry, and what caught my eye was something else entirely.   And unlike an e-riv, it sounds like it's at least a remote possibility.  Is anyone else as excited as me by the possibility of a Hunqapillar that fits 650b plus size tires?! 

[Philip Kim]

yep. at that point might as well go disc brakes

[Kieran J]

Not BITD - today and for the foreseeable future! Here in Toronto - like many other big cities I would guess - both e-bikes and e-mopeds are plentiful. They are allowed in the bike lanes and don't require a license to operate.

I agree they have certain benefits to providing greater utility and mobility to people and they are not fossil-fuel based. On the other hand, they are very fast and entirely silent, which pose a danger to traditional cyclists, since e-bikes have been allowed to use infrastructure designated for cyclist and pedestrians (which seems crazy to me). More than once I have almost been run over in the bike lane by a "powered bike", which is infuriating.

Like some of you have touched on, this is an ongoing topic of discussion on MTB boards too. I think a lot of trails users are worried that routes closed to motorized vehicles are going to be increasingly overrun by what are in actual fact powerful motorized vehicles that exploit a legal grey area. I liken them to recreational drones: potentially useful but vulnerable to abuse in the hands of a moron.

  

KJ

[Bill Lindsay]

A Hunqapillar made by their excellent Taiwan manufacturers at ~$500 to $1000 lower price, while still making sustainable revenue for Rivendell would also be nice.  

BL in EC

[iamkeith]

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 7:40:58 AM UTC-6, Philip Kim wrote:

yep. at that point might as well go disc brakes

Phillip, 

 I suppose I see your point.  If Velocity stopped making the cliffhanger (as they did once before), you'd kind of be screwed.   That might  actually be one of Riv's reservations.  Also, the best part of a canti fork - that it allows you to incorporate some 'give' into the fork legs, to absorb bumbs and vibrations - sort of becomes a moot point once the tire gets to a certain volume.  Also, I suppose someone could swap in a real skinny 700c road wheelset, though I can't imagine why you would.   

Nonetheless,  I STILL.think i prefer the classy canti brakes!

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:52:23 AM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

A Hunqapillar made by their excellent Taiwan manufacturers at ~$500 to $1000 lower price, while still making sustainable revenue for Rivendell would also be nice.  

BL in EC

Bill, 

I'll take that to mean you're thinking about and wanting one too, now that there's a 56cm!  If I recall correctly, you were similarly ill-accomodated with the previous size offerings.  

I should probably stop and/or start a different subject-specific thread before I derail this one too far, but I'm really trying to figure out how to do this now!  ("plus" tires or not) As suggested by your taiwan mfg. comment, that would entail selling a bunch of bikes given my current finances.   But, since this stock offering is finally getting extremely close to the bike I've really wanted for a long time, I think I actually prefer that it is  U.S. made.   I can't even remember if its waterford or nobillete or ? but, if I understand the current rules correctly, the built-to-order part means I can pick my own paint and have minor modifications like custom brazeons, right?   So, basically, the exact bike I would/hoped to someday order as a custom, but without the built-for-someone's-quirks baggage that has always made me reluctant to buy a custom. 

[Bob K.]

Keith,

From what I understand, folks have already successfully run 29x2.5 tires in their Hunqs. I imagine, though, that those "2.5s" weren't actual 2.5s, but maybe they were. I agree, however, that this sort of clearance for a 27.5/650b+ tire would be really cool. Thing is, it's likely already possible with current versions of 700c Hunqs since the OD of a 650/27.5x2.6 is about .715 meters and that is roughly smack dab in the middle of 29erx2.0 and 700x45, both sizes that are commonly used on Hunqs. You would probably run into width clearance issues with a true 2.6, but realistically a 27.5x2.4 would probably be awesome and fit fine!

Would be a cool experiment for someone to try. My guess would be that it wouldn't affect handling too much (if at all), and BB height would be mostly unaffected. More info on different tire sizes and outside diameters can be found here: http://www.bikepacking.com/plan/granny-gear-inches/

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Joe Bernard]

I would buy a Taiwan 650b plus Hunqapillar with disk brakes. I know Riv/Grant isn't thrilled with disks, but they're pretty much the future for bikes intended to tackle dirt roads. I know some folks perceive them as more complex, but after some time with mechanical disks on my folder I've found they're similar in fiddliness to v-brakes, and less work (and parts) than cantis. Build it, Grant!

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[drew]

I don't know if I would buy one (and since he's already said he's against it, it would sorta make me sad) but I think it would be a good move for the company and they would sell a lot. It would also help to differentiate the models, which are getting pretty overlappy on the dirt and tour side.

[Jeff Lesperance]

I agree. As I've been attempting to perfect my bike stable, attempting to have the least amount of bikes for all my possible riding, I've found myself with 3 of my 5 bikes with disc brakes, and down to one Riv (Rosco v2) where I had as many as 4 at one time (Hilsen, Hillborne, Romulus, Rosco) - if there were a disc-braked Hunq and Hillborne/Appa I'd gladly add them to my stable and send my Space Horse Disc and Troll on to their next owners.

[Grant Petersen]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 9:02 AM, drew <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know if I would buy one (and since he's already said he's against it, it would sorta make me sad) but I think it would be a good move for the company and they would sell a lot. It would also help to differentiate the models, which are getting pretty overlappy on the dirt and tour side.

Too true, Drew! But---that wasn't the plan-plan. There wasn't actually a plan-plan, and maybe that steered it in that direction. I've never been a fan of the one-trick bike or the extreme bike, so the overlappy (I will use that word a lot from now on) is inevitable. At one time the idea was to offer foreignese counterparts, just as good but lower priced. That's how the HunqaLantis and Sam/Homer overlappy.came about. The Roadeo/Roadini overlappy, same. The differentiation was cost and Country of Origin, but it's also LIKING or small band of suppliers and not wanting to say NO MORE FROM YOU! 

I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and for the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit to get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, and being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, it can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, but when you ride appropriate and good wheels in 2017 how often do you get a wobble? Once a year, max? Then you deal with it and go back to smoothness for another few years...

Cars and motorcycles have the disadvantages of weight and speed that rule out rim brakes, but most bikes (tandems may be an exception) are ideal for the more mechanically efficient rim brake. Bikes aren't lite versions of motor vehicles, and adopting motor-technology unnecessarily on bicycles in order to make them appear more high tech (and when you see disc brakes on citi-bikes, what else can it be?) is legal and fine and may help sales, but it's not something we're going to get into. I say this matter-of-factly, not turgidly or anything.

 

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[Orc]

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:

I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and for the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit to get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, and being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, it can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, 

I think that's the actual selling point for disc brakes;  it's cheaper to replace a rotor than it is to replace a rim.   (Not so much so in 700c, but in boutique sizes like 650b rims are becoming eye-poppingly expensive and if you venture away from the Velocity offerings there's not certainty that you'll be able to replace them when they wear down.)

-david parsons

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Grant Petersen <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

<snip> 

 ...

Bikes aren't lite versions of motor vehicles, and adopting motor-technology unnecessarily on bicycles in order to make them appear more high tech (and when you see disc brakes on citi-bikes, what else can it be?) is legal and fine and may help sales, but it's not something we're going to get into. I say this matter-of-factly, not turgidly or anything.

 What of adopting disc brakes for advantages other than the non-advantage of appearing more high tech? 

The few times that it's been an advantage to have my braking surface away from mud/glop/wetness have been pivotal moments in safety and self preservation. You really only need to have one of these moments to realize the benefit of disc brakes, and a few moments as such just add more value the solution. 

The other advantages I appreciate: ease of running oversized tires that fit the frame but never or tightly fit in between or under rim-based brakes. 

Yet another advantage that sounds good to me but I haven't taken advantage of yet: ease of swapping different sized wheels/tires. Switch your 650b daily driver over to 26'er fat tires, or 700c down to 650b+

None of these use-cases seem unnecessarily or seemingly high tech, they just appear to solve a safety issue while also introducing an ease-of-use scenario and adaptability opportunity.

[Garth]

   I find it surprisingly not surprising at all much of the bike biz has gone hog wild for disc brakes. I actually prefer to brake as little and as light as possible, and I live in area where there are many 1 mile and under steep and curvy rolly polly hills to ride on. I drive my pickup the same way. On my '99 F150 which I bought brand new I went about 70,000 miles on the original brakes, despite to get into town and go anywhere it's pure roller coaster hills up and down.  I let the bike and car roll downhill , and just apply brakes intuitively entering corners for the inherent line that reveals itself.

  Some of my way back roads are in very poor condition and many not maintained in winter, and they all tend to be with very steep hills. Going down can be harem scarem at times for sure, since they are usually sparse to dense gravel/rock over a very irregular hard "road" and sometimes not-a-road surface.  Sure disc brakes may make it seem not so skittish, idk, but I ride these roads so infrequently it hardly warrants buying a bike with discs just to test it.  When I rode all those years on my Stumpie however, I never had a problem with rim braking down loose rocky hill trails and often cow paths on ranches where no bicycle has been. So . .  .. much ado about nothing.

  Everyone is different of course, some like to brake/accelerate aggressive/hard everywhere , and that's alright certainly, I just have never been that way. If someone wants a Riv-like bike with disc brakes that bad there are plenty of custom frame builders to do so for you. But if you have experience with different builders/designers of anything it's quite apparent they will make only what they agrees with their own sensibilities, which is a good thing because thus feel free to make what they'd love to make and use themselves and in doing so make it very well.  When you have no personal connection to what you are designing/making it just doesn't have that intangible quality I cannot find a word for, it's just one of those you experience.

  So when I ride a Riv design I ride a Riv designed frame, and I know what to expect, and I take it or leave it I like that .

[Patrick Moore]

I happily use calipers on 3 of my 4 bikes, but for an off road bike with 700C wheels -- = heavy -- discs have some advantages that haven't been mentioned.

1. IME, they are not less efficient than cantilevers or V brakes; in fact, the mechanical discs I've used are as powerful as most rim brakes I've used, the Riv set up IRDs with salmons being the one exception, and even there the cantis' advantage was principally modulation.

And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they modulate even better than the best mechanicals.

2. You can use very light rims -- tubular rim weight -- because the rims don't need brake tracks. This may not be important to everyone, but it is important to some: with 360 gram 50 mm tires and 430 gram rims, you can have your fat-tired cake without any weight penalty. The difference in my Rhyno Lites + Big Apple Liteskins (light model!) was over 700 grams per wheel, and that doesn't count the weight of a fat 29er tube; the newer wheels are tubeless. (The difference between the Light model of the Snocat and the same Light Big Apple was over 800 grams per wheel before subtracting the weight of the tube -- and adding that of sealant.) Believe me, removing 700 or 800 grams from each wheel makes the bike feel better!

3. You don't wear out your rim as quickly: in sandy soil, let alone mud, your rim pads pick up grit. And as David said, it can be expensive to replace rims, even 700C rims: the Velocity Blunt SS that I use are $83 to over $100 each online.

There are other practical advantages, too, but these are my own principal reasons for preferring them for dirt.

For me, there are very practical reasons to prefer discs on bikes ridden in dirt.

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[Garth]

  If I am going to compare costs between this and that, it has to be the total cost of ownership.  So sure, rims and pads may wear down and require replacement, but a wheel of disc brakes is not immune to the same and/or it's own issues. They are still relatively new so long term costs are often overlooked and/or incalculable.  Any rim can still crack or fail for infinite reasons. Disc brake pad lifespan, is it as good as rim pads ? Compare the costs of replacing each type of pads also. Also the initial cost of the disc brake system itself is factored. And of course, "stuff happens" that no one can predict, and so can make such comparisons unreliable at best.  So I say just ride what is ridden and there is not need to justify it to anyone.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/03/2017 03:24 PM, Garth wrote:

  If I am going to compare costs between this and that, it has to be the total cost of ownership.  So sure, rims and pads may wear down and require replacement, but a wheel of disc brakes is not immune to the same and/or it's own issues. They are still relatively new so long term costs are often overlooked and/or incalculable.  Any rim can still crack or fail for infinite reasons.

Riding into a pothole being right up there at the very top of the list of oops, need a new rim conditions, and that's irrespective of brake type

Disc brake pad lifespan, is it as good as rim pads ?

We know that to clearly not be the case.  Some disc pads don't last 1 ride (as evidenced by reports in a recent BQ article).  I have a set of brake shoes on my 1991 Spectrum that's still fine and it's been there on that bike since 1991.

Compare the costs of replacing each type of pads also. Also the initial cost of the disc brake system itself is factored. And of course, "stuff happens" that no one can predict, and so can make such comparisons unreliable at best.  So I say just ride what is ridden and there is not need to justify it to anyone.

"It's your money..."

[Orc]

I've potholed a few rims, and the main damage to them is the brake track.   You /can/ get the bend out  (one of my potholed rims is a 650b ztr355, which can't be replaced for love or money now that Stans has drunk deep from the disc brake well, so you can be assured that I fixed that wagon and still have the wheelset around.   Sadly, the bead is damaged enough so that I don't dare run Confreries tubeless on it anymore) but if you don't it's really not very good for rim braking anymore.   With disc brakes, just shrug and keep riding.

And about those brake pads...   I still not-so-fondly recall the set of new V-O squeal-less pads I took out on a paved-road 200k one February and returned with the front pads worn down to the metal carrier.     My single disc braked machine, on the other hand, has had BB5s on it for ~3k miles now and is still using the original pads in the rear (I swapped the front pads when they started getting thin after ~2k miles, but the rear pads keep telling me that I was being overly pessimistic about that) which is the same milage ballpark as all of the rim brake pads I've used in the 50k miles I've ridden over the past few years.

Disc brakes aren't that new anymore, either, and a lot of the really dumb designs have already been caught and weeded out.    There's not much reason for Riv to switch over to them ($300 for a rim swap every now and then is not much compared to the cost of a fully kitted-out machine) unless Grant decides to start designing & selling full-carbon racing MTBs.

-david parsons

[Joe Bernard]

"And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they modulate even better than the best mechanicals."

If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and modulation with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the mechanical discs on my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum brakes. I purposely avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because this thread already has me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs for Rivendells. I gotta draw the line somewhere!

[Orc]

What are you trying to stop with them?   I've got 1.5 hydraulic brakes sitting in my bike mess at home (I have a plan to put a disc brake onto a Bob Yak trailer) and I spent some time with them on a regular bike but didn't really see any difference between them and the mechanical discs I put onto the thing when I decided that disc brakes were okay to use on it.

-david parsons

[Patrick Moore]

Just think: a Hunqapillar or an Atlantis with hydraulic discs, front-wheel swap-in electric motor, and full-time concierge parking service, and most radical of all, no second top tube! C'mon, Grant!

Seriously, I can believe you. I've not tried hydraulic discs except for the one time I sampled my next-door-neighbor's new mountain bike up and down our cul de sac. One finger, and I almost threw myself over the bar. 

That said, even the vintage BB7, in its current iterations, is wonderful -- I recall the older version of the BB7 Road that I installed on my circa-2010 Redline Monocog 29er ('cuz I wanted to use drop bars). Doggggg! I installed a 180 mm front rotor, Jagwire housing, and expensive pads -- NDG.* But the newer (2015) model BB7 Roads are just suweeet. Much better than BB7 Mountains with V brake levers.

All that said, I have to agree with Garth (!!) in saying that ya pays yer money and takes yer choice. Choose Rivendell handling and "feel" and be content with rim brakes. Or insist on discs, and go elsewhere. Me, if I had the $$, I'd very seriously consider buying a Hunq frame and taking it to a local builder for disc adaptation.

* Technical engineering term for insufficient performance.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

"And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they modulate even better than the best mechanicals."

If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and modulation with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the mechanical discs on my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum brakes. I purposely avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because this thread already has me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs for Rivendells. I gotta draw the line somewhere!

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[Philip Kim]

Would love a disc brake 650b Hunqapillar US or Taiwan-made. It would be a fight to try to get one before it sold out thouh

[Jeff Lesperance]

My first disc brake experience was with a cheap mechanical disc brake, and braking performance, by any measure, was on par with cheap caliper or v-brakes. They'd stop the bike as needed, but I didn't observe any advantage with them. I then upgraded to some Shimano XT hydraulics and this is when the epiphany happened. My first handful of brake lever quickly taught me that unlike many rim brakes, grabbing too much hydraulic disc brakes is a signal that you want to stop NOW and possibly do a superman-like flight over the handlebars.

I then added Shimano hydraulics to another bike, and on my recent build up of an All City, I wanted to give mech disc calipers another go, and I chose TRP Spyres, which moved the outboard and inboard pads together at the same time, similar to hydros, but unlike most mechanical disc calipers that only move the outboard pad. The Spyres perform very well, though I still think that the Shimano hydros give better performance all around. 

My Surly Troll came with disc brake mounts and removable canti posts. To me, this would be an ideal config for Rivendell to consider emulating, without potentially alienating any customers or running afoul of any ideals they hold for necessary braking control. A Hunq/Altlantis with this config seems smart to me, but I'm just a consumer with a bike budget.

Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

"And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they modulate even better than the best mechanicals."

If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and modulation with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the mechanical discs on my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum brakes. I purposely avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because this thread already has me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs for Rivendells. I gotta draw the line somewhere!