Can you fit 130 mm modern group specs with old 126 mm spacing?

[hsmitham]

Hey there sprocket heads, a little off topic but curious if any of you have experience rehabing old frame sets with  modern 10 speed groups? In advance thanks.

Hugh

Sunland, Ca

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Yes, generally speaking you can put a 130 mm hub in 126 mm dropouts on a steel bike. Cold-setting (bending) the frame isn't necessary. Just pull the stays apart a little as you slide in the rear wheel.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Cable routing for new components on old frames may be an issue.

[hsmitham]

Hi Jim,

Thanks, I asked my LBS and they figured it couldn't be done. I'd heard of cold-setting which didn't appeal to me as it sounds tricky. I plan on purchasing an old 1985 Trek which I believe the routing should work O.K. Building up a bike for club rides.

Hugh

Sunland, Ca 

[Jim Mather]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:41 PM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

I asked my LBS and they figured it couldn't be done.

Wow, I'm all for supporting one's LBS, but it's too bad they have such limited knowledge.

[hsmitham]

I'm sorry to say my experience with many bike stores here in Southern California has been  that they are devoted to selling new race bikes, that's where the $$ is in their business plan. I have found some local coop type institutions around rehabilitating old bikes, tho they can be dis-organized and difficult to work with. That's why this group is invaluable IMHO.

Hugh

Sunland, Ca

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2013-02-20 at 20:15 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> Cable routing for new components on old frames may be an issue.
>

I remember back when 7 speed Hyperglide first came in and people were
upgrading their 6-speed tandems they had a lot of trouble with the way
the cables were routed under the captain's bottom bracket. I'm not sure
if the old style Campagnolo above-the-bottom-bracket front shifter cable
routing works for indexing. What other cable routing issues might be
problematic on older frames?

[Scott Henry]

Jim might be able to more acurately chime in on this, but after about a dozen years in the shops, I think its the other way around.  Shops make money on partsand labor.   At least for me, standard markup on a complete bike was in the 30-35% range.   The markup on parts was 100% and labor was just pure gold.  Thats was years ago, but even then the labor rate was based off of something like $75 hourly.  Your shop may vary, but thats how it worked in my area (Cincinnati). 

 

We liked to sell hot bikes for one reason only, because we got to build them.  There was a special enjoyment from wrenching on top-o-the-line stuff.  The boss wanted us changing front tubes all day, they were the fastest easy money that you could make on a two minute repair.

 

More or less, a shop saying you can't run a 130 wheel in a 126 frame is just lazy.  It probably tells me that the employee was also the mechanic and just didnt want to do the work.  He'll get paid minimum wage either way.

 

Scott

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I can certainly envision several reasons why your LBS told you that.

It could be that the shop employee was inexperienced and doesn't know much about older bikes.

Or it could be that the shop doesn't want the liability associated with installing parts that are, technically speaking, incompatible with the frame.

Or maybe, they've gone down the rabbit hole of modernizing old bikes in the past, and feel that it isn't worth the trouble. I know that I've had experience with that kind of thing, where some unforeseen and seemingly trivial incompatibility issue causes the project to take 5x longer than quoted and in the end, the solution was a kludge that isn't 100% satisfactory.

Or maybe you're the fifth guy this week who wanted to put a modern parts group on an old bike, and they figured that, like the previous four, you'd balk at the high price, and it would be just easier for everybody if they cut to the chase and say "no". After all, buying a parts group and wheelset and the labor to install it all can often cost as much as or more than a new bike that has the same parts and wheelset.

[Garth]

Cold setting a steel frame is very simple and easy.  A frame builder taught me how to do it in just minutes, and to perfection :)

[Jim]

Jim, based on my experience, you are right on the money.  When I got out to Colorado and wanted someone to just look over my 1971 Schwinn SS, no one in boulder would even touch it, and only one shop in Denver would.  That particular shop (CycleAnalyst) had an experienced mechanic that did a nice job of getting the bike safe again.  But it wasn't easy.  And I wasn't trying to "update" it.

jim in Boulder

[Ryan Ray]

I had some shops tell me I had to do it and some tell me I didn't. Then I just tried it after all the hubub and my frame was slightly wider than 126. I didn't really have to pull it apart much at all so I just went with it.

The must-cold-set folks lose a little credibility with all the steel frames that measure 132.5 or whatever and let you use both MTB and road hubs.

Still, if it was a super nice frame and was a tight 126 I'd pay to get it done right.

- Ryan

[William]

Remember RB1s were spaced 128mm when they came with a 126mm 7 speed rear end or a 130mm 8 speed rear end.  

Remember also that the first Shimano 130mm rear hubs had a cone shaped left lock nut that would allow you to pull the rear wheel in, which would pull your frame out to 130 for you.  

[Scott G.]

On Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:59:05 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

Cold setting a steel frame is very simple and easy.  A frame builder taught me how to do it in just minutes, and to perfection :)

I've had  hi-ten and 531 frames cold set, how about 753 or 853 ?

[hsmitham]

Hey Jim just to be clear I'm not slamming bike stores. And regarding where they make their dough yes just like automotive outfits its the parts and labor where they make their money. I've never run a bike store and can only imagine the number of idiotic questions plus resistance to spending money by some customers. In the case of my LBS I think it's a case of just being busy. I'm happy their busy and doing business. I also agree that doing a resurectio project can and probably is more expensive than buying a bike off the rack but for me the end result will be far more satisfying.

Hugh

Sunland, Ca

[Garth]

I don't  have any photos  .. lol !!!   The frames I did it on were 531 ST,  Columbus SLX and an 83 Stumpjumper.  The builder showed me how to do it, without tools. He showed me outside his rural shop, in the grass of all places !!!  I asked him where his tools were , he siad he didn't need any as he's done it so many times .  He did have a tool to check it though, but he was spot on the first time . 

Basically you go by feel . If one has no confidence to do this, by all means DO NOT do it !!   I had experience in shop doing it with tools, so I already had an idea of how to do it, but not with no tools !!  The frame on it's side, gently pull one stay towards you at a time.  Check it with a string test or if you have a large straight edge . 

It's mostly a matter of self confidence, just know you can do it , and you do it :)

 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I don't use tools. I clamp the frame in the stand, grab the rear triangle with both hands, and give it a good snort. Then I measure spacing and centered-ness and correct as needed. Sorry to anybody who was expecting more sophistication!

[William]

Jim Thill knows, this ain't rocket surgery

[Ron Mc]

some bike shops sell bikes, others live them

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-02-21 at 14:25 -0800, Mark R. wrote:
> I had no issue with indexing and Campy above the bb cable guides. Not sure why that would be an issue anyway.

Well, the issue (the only one I know about, the Campy above bb cable
guides was a question, as they do it differently now) with the older
tandems was that the cables ran through holes drilled in a flange below
the front bottom bracket shell (the front bottom bracket shell on those
tandems is split, clamping around a moveble eccentric bottom bracket
shell within a shell) and there was too much friction where the cable
passed through the hole, making rear index shifting unpredictable and
inconsistent. It took a while to identify the source of the problem,
too.

I don't recall any other cases where older style frame design caused
problems retrofitting indexing, and obviously, this issue is
tandem-specific. Other than width, the only other obvious changes in
frame design I can recall are that cable guide and rear derailleur
hanger.

Older AM-series Moultons had a rear derailleur mount that was said to be
to SunTour rather than Shimano specifications, and some have claimed
that difference causes trouble when converting those bikes to modern
index shifting. My AM, an early 80s model, has the old style
dropout/derailleur hanger, but with a modern derailleur and bar end
shifter it indexes perfectly with 8 speed Hyperglide, so I'm not sure
how much of an issue the derailleur hanger actually is in practice.

The older frames had narrower rear triangle spacing, but that's not a
potential indexing problem, it's a matter of getting a wider hub to fit
in there. As Sheldon has pointed out, you could upgrade a 7-speed
cassette hub to 8 speeds without spreading the triangle and fitting a
130 hub with the "8 of 9 on 7" method, and some have even tried "9 of 10
on 7".