Tall bags & decaleurs

[Michael Hechmer]

I am strongly considering replacing the standard front Acorn Bag, which I now use on my Ram, Saluki, & tandem, with a larger, more appropriate sized bag.  Perhaps the large Acorn but more likely the large Bertoud.  But I am perplexed by which decaleur to select.  The Ram & Saluki each have 10 mm stems and the current distance from the rack to the stem bolt is 27 & 30 cm respectively.  The Bertoud decaleur (H91) should fit either, has the most adjustability, but looks awkward to get the bag on & off the bike.  The VO decaleur which mounts to the HS might also work but has only about 2cm of adjustability.  The Compass decaleur has lengthy installation instruction but no guidance about fit, and its twice the price of the Bertoud.

I'd like to know if others on the list have dealt with this situation and what they have learned.

Michael

[Steve Palincsar]

The Berthoud decaleur may "look" difficult to get the bag on and off,
but in reality it is not. You remove the retaining pin (I use a
spiral-shaped fancy paper clip), remove the rod and the bag comes off.
The only fiddly part really is threading the rod in, because you have to
line up the tubes on the bag with the tube on the decaleur, but even
that becomes second nature after you do it for a while.

A good thing about the Berthoud decaleur is that the bag won't jump off
if you hit a bump. The VO absolutely needs a safety strap. You really
won't be happy when you hit a small pothole, the bag jumps off and lands
right in front of your wheel.

Jan says a problem with the Berthoud is on extended dirt road outings
the bolts tend to vibrate out. I solved that with blue Locktite.

[lungimsam]

The Compass/Grand Bois decaleur for NITTO Pearl Stems:

The  good:

Definitely the cleanest, minimalist, and most elegant look for a decaleur I have found on the market.

Excellent, tight fit of bike bag pins to decaleur. Easy to install. Just replaces your NITTO Pearl stem clamp bolt.

The not so good, but not the decaleur's fault:

You may have to raise or lower your handlebars to get the bottom of your bag to sit on the rack platform, because the decaleur sticks straight out from the stem clamp bolt (it is basically a stem clamp bolt with the decaleur pins welded onto it's bolt head). If your bars are too high above your rack, the bag will sit in mid air over the rack. There is no adjustability with the GB for NITTO Pearl decaleur other than raising/lowering the bars. The decaleur receiving cylinder tops will sit about at whatever height over the rack your stem clamp bolt head is currently sitting. If your bars are only a little higher than needed, you could just ditch whatever stiffner is in your bag and the load may bow the base of the cloth bag enough to sit on the rack platform.

Or, or get a bag tall/short enough to match your current bar height so that the bag pins will mate properly with the receiving cylinders. That leather strip on the top of the back wall of the Berthoud bag is what you need to affix the bag decaleur pin bar to. So that measurement, down to your rack platform. And that measurement needs to ensure that it will be just above where your stem bolt head is so everything will mate up nicely, or you have to adjust bars to compensate or ditch the stiffner and hope for the best. Or, get a new rack that sits lower/higher on your bike than the one you have now to compensate.

Keep in mind, the metal strap with the pins that gets bolted to the bag will have to sit at a point on the bag slightly above the height of the stem bolt so that the pins that point down from it will be able to move down into the decaleur stem bolt receiving cylinders. I can send detailed pics of mine to you if you like so you can see what I am talking about. Just let me know.

 

Now, if you have a GB stem like the one Compass sells, then you get the GB stem version of the decaleur with the drop kit to buy yourself some height adjustability if you need it. But the drop kit just lowers the contact points, I think.

[LBleriot]

If you use the the VO racaleur, you don't need to mess with the handlebar height or have the bag dangle at a weird angle on the rack. Not a perfect solution but at least you don't have to buy a bag based on stem height.

[Brian Campbell]

I am using a Nitto Zao decaleur and an Acorn Tall rando bag on my 61cm AHH. I am using a 90mm Nitto Pearl stem. The Nitto connection is much more solid than the VO. Plus the Nitto connects to the bag with 3 bolts vs. the VO 2 bolts. Less chance of sagging. My only complaint is that the bag opens facing the rider and the extra bracing material on the decaleur can make closing the bag a little fiddly.

[Ron Mc]

leather washers solves the only Berhtoud problem - they compress and turn into the ultimate lock washers

They never need tightening again, not after 2000 miles  

Total Berthoud fan here

Works great, totally secure.  

  

and is the least obtrusive when not wearing a rando bag.  

[lungimsam]

Here is what the NITTO GB/Compass for Pearl stems looks like:

Very low profile. 

[lungimsam]

Nice setup, Ron!

Seen that bike before and always enjoy seeing it again. Very pretty!

The Berthoud decaleurs have adjustability I regards to how far from the stem forward they project, is that right?

I have seen mention of different sizes, which I am guessing means how long the arms project forward? 

[Ron Mc]

they offer two lengths, and you have to buy the correct length, but they rotate up and down

[lungimsam]

Michael,

Your other option is to forego a rack and decaleur setup and get a handlebar bag that doesn't need a rack.

1. Saddlesack Bar Sack with NITTO F-15 handlebar bag rack.

~268$US and you are good to go. A perfect fit for your bike no matter what your bar height.

I had one for a short while on my Bleriot and it was fantastic.

The magnetic closure is so cool. Nice, tight click shut and a very clean bag closure line.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/basbs-o.htm

2. Berthoud version that uses the F15 rack also, if you want a Berthoud bag:

http://boulderbicycle.bike/Handlebar-bags-that-do-not-need-racks/

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks for all the replies.  They are all helpful.  I have had an Arkel HB bag and found mounting a bag to the bars always affected the handling.

Why are decaleurs specific to pearl & technomic stems?  Don't they have the same horizontal bolt?

Michael

[Ron Mc]

Berthoud also makes their decaleur mount for threadless and vertical bolts

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Horses for courses.  I like the VO headset-mounted decaleur because it works for me and it's cheap.  I've never had a bag come off, but then I use the rack's tombstone as well.  But the adjustment is very limited; if it works on your bike, it will work well.  But if it's not a good fit (part of that fit depends on your bag, and where on the bag you mount the decaleur) it's likely to not work at all.

[Ron Mc]

have the same one on my daughter's upright and we use it to change between a Q/R wicker basket and an Acorn mini-rando.  

The difference with that design is the entire torsion of the bag is carried through the tombstone, fork bolt and lower stays, while a headset or stem mounted decaleur eliminates the torsion.  

Not so significant on the mini-rando bag, but the bags Mike is discussing are 11 inches tall.  

[David Banzer]

Like Andrew, I've had a good experience with one VO headset decaluer. I'll qualify the "one" to mean I've purchased subsequent VO decaleurs and the prong fit was way off to the point that they needed some adjusting and I didn't bother installing them. Maybe I just got lucky on my first. I used that with a tall Acorn bag (there is a possibility I might be selling) and never had any issues.
That said, if you go with a bag that has velcro attachments on the bottom, or provisions for a strap on the bottom, then it's kind of a non issue as the bag can't possibly fall off.
David
Chicago

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 6:51:23 AM UTC-5, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:

[Michael Leven]

Michael,
Compass sells three types of Decaleur:

1. The "for Pearl" version works with stems designed with a horizontal bolt and triangular wedge nut on them. Like the Pearl, the new N.P., and Technomic Deluxe. They have that wedge nut on them instead of a standard hexagonal nut.

2. The "for aluminum stems" version is for standard Technomics and the like with a horizontal bolt with a standard hexagonal nut on them.

3. The "Grand Bois" Decaleur is a different design, made for the 2-clamp bolt GB stems that Compass sells. Compass sells the drop kit designed for them too. I think they also sell period accurate clamp bolts for them, too. I think they have conical heads.

[Michael Leven]

Michael,

Scroll down the page to the Compass hardware pics.

 https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/decaleurs-for-aluminum-stems/

The first hardware pic shows the decaler set for standard aluminum stems that take a hexagonal nut on their stem clamp bolts.

The second one down shows the wedge piece for the Pearl/Tech Deluxe stems, which have that wedge shaped nut.

On the decalers, the wedge shape isn't threaded, it's just a form fitting insert, then the spacer, then a regular nut on top of everything.

[Tim]

I have a 63cm Hilsen with a Nitto Mark's Rack, large Berthoud bag and Berthoud H-121 decaleur on the Technomic stem. I really like the setup. I was worried that the attach/detach from the decaleur would be a pain but after doing it a couple of times it was no problem at all. Steve's paper clip pin is a good idea, though. I have a space of around 31cm from the rack to the top of the handlebar so the bag is just below the bar, which is what I wanted. I previously had the Sackville BarSack on and with the handlebar mount the top of the bag is just above the bars. I ride a lot with my forearms resting on the bars and I smashed the bag down like that.

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks.  I looked at that picture any number of times and never picked up on that small difference.

Michael

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks, Tim.  That is exactly what I needed to read.  I have been going by this fit guide on the Wallbike web site.

http://www.wallbike.com/berthoud/parts-and-brackets/decaleur-du-sac

Michael

[Michael Hechmer]

So I ordered the Bertoud bag and decaleur, along with some pari-motos from Boulder bike.  They seem more ready to pass along the savings from the strong $ than most other retailers.

Michael

[Michael Leven]

Congrats!
Enjoy the setup and be sure to post pics!

[Ron Mc]

the one odd thing about the Berthoud is the safety pin it comes with for retaining the rod end.  I made a nice spring clip out of Hastelloy wire

  

I have access to materials like that (superalloys) at work.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/22/2015 10:33 PM, Ron Mc wrote:

the one odd thing about the Berthoud is the safety pin it comes with for retaining the rod end.  I made a nice spring clip out of Hastelloy wire

  

I have access to materials like that (superalloys) at work. 

Elegant solution, but I don't have such access, and we did happen to have a box of these at home:

[Tim]

Those are cool Steve! I thought that you had fashioned one out of a regular paper clip. I've never seen an Italian paper clip. Nice.

[Ron Mc]

belissimo

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/23/2015 08:23 AM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
> Those are cool Steve! I thought that you had fashioned one out of a regular paper clip. I've never seen an Italian paper clip. Nice.
>

Regular paper clips don't last very long. These Clipiolas last at least
a year in regular, heavy use. Plus, they look really cool when used as
a paper clip!

I'm not even sure where my wife got them.

[Peter Adler]

Someplace like this, perhaps.

http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=8942

[Michael Hechmer]

My gradual refurbishing of the Bertoud bag has moved another step forward.  I went to a fabric store and bought some 1" batting called nu foam and used strong two sided tape to attach it to the bottom & two sides of the bag.  I'm very pleased with the results.  It's much easier to see into the bag and my glass case and wallet made not a squeak on a 20 mile shake down cruise over some really bad roads.

More pics here:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/25287678@N08/sets/72157653328881511

I also added a real hitch clip to replace the silly safety pin.  I'll probably add the leather washers and replace the missized closures when I get the parts and a round toit.

Michael