How heavy a front load on lowriders on a Rivendell road bike?

[Patrick Moore]

I often install the front (Ortlieb Sports Packers) on the '03 Road for a grocery run to Corrales, and end up buying enough to fill most of the rear Roller Packers. I manage to stuff it all in, somehow, but I've carried as much as 35 lb between the 2 fronts, and the bike doesn't like it -- it doesn't want to turn. It's happier with sub-20 lb between the 2 fronts.

Even on the rear, this bike doesn't handle 30+ lb loads with the grace that the 2 best rear-load-carrying bikes I've owned did (they were very different; light, flexy '73 Motobecane Grand Record, and Fuji Royale "12 Speed", a much beefier frame and a bike that really was rather skittish, at least with 28s (I seem to recall that it stabilized a bit with 42s), but that, with at least 15 lb in rear panniers, felt wonderfully planted. (I recall carrying ~10 lb in one of those old Carradice boxy bags on the Nitto bar-mount "prongs" that held the weight high and forward; rode it in gusty sidewinds -- sold the Boxy Bag and "prongs."

Long windup, but we get there eventually: how much can you comfortably carry in lowriders on one of the more "roady" Rivendells? Roads, LongLows, Rams, Sams, Bleriots, Redwoods or whatever they were?

What about in baskets -- high, forward! -- on other models?

In any event, even a ride on the Rivendell with too much weight in front is a heckofalot more pleasant than driving the car!

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[Jeff Lesperance]

My recollection is that my tour load for my Sam for the front Ortlieb panniers on a Tubus Tara was in the 35 lbs range and that the Sam wanted at least some type of weight on the back to accompany that front load if I wanted it to behave reasonably, which I had, so no problem. My loose rule for loading a Sam or a Homer:

Weight in back only > weight in back and front, biased at least 60/40 back/front > minimal weight in front only. Sam handled a full tour load just fine - yeah, feels weird at first but once you get a handful of miles under your belt, you get used to it and weird/slow handling becomes normal. Homer didn't feel as bad with front-only loading but still pretty much wanted the same loading schedule that Sam wanted, just with a lower overall total weight. High/forward/baskets, IMHO, doesn't work super-awesome on Sam or Homer with drop bars, but worked alright with a Rosco v.2 with Choco bars (flat, swept-back bars), though the latter is hardly a "roady" bike.

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[Patrick Moore]

I had front and rear racks custom made for the 2003 Road, so that I could load front and rear, but I never get around to shopping with both, always one or the other. I generally don't ride more than 10 miles with such loads, so it's not a real problem.

Back when I had a canti Sam, I had lowrider bosses added, and as an experiment, once carried a front load of, oh, 40 lb -- 2 X water-filled 1 gal jugs in each. Now that was scary! It felt as if the headset had completely seized. I could only turn by leaning, so nothing more than a very gradual turn.

And then there's the time I carried (just to see) 2 X 26 lb cinderblocks high and forward in a Wald Newsboy on some cheap Schwinn -- Voyager or somesuch. Now there was a trip!

[Tim Gavin]

I've carried ~25-30 lbs on a front Nitto Campee lowrider rack on my '97 Riv Road Standard.  At that weight, the front is resistant to turn; it's "over-stable".  However, I liked that feeling for long road tour days.  It meant I could ride no-hands, which my bike was normally a little too twitchy to do with comfort.  I had to lean more and turn the handlebars less when I did want to turn.

Less than ~10 lbs on the lowriders wasn't very noticeable.

My normal load is <10 lbs in a randonneur bag (on a rack and decaleur).  The rando bag makes the front wheel flop when parked, but doesn't affect handling too badly.  The secret is to mount the bag as low and close to the head tube as possible.  ~20 lbs in that bag (or in a basket on the mini-rack) meant ponderous, head-strong handling.

I've recently replaced the original fork with the Romanceur fork that Crust bikes was selling a couple months ago.  It's low trail, w/ a disc brake, dynamo wire routing, rack mounts, and much wider tire clearance.  I only have a few rides on it, but it seems more stable with the rando bag than the original fork.  Pics to come.

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[Patrick Moore]

"Overly stable" describes the feeling well. It's not horrible, and I can see getting used to it, say, on a tour, but I do wonder about emergency handling if you have to dodge a pothole or auto pulling out from the side.

I've ridden a low trail bike (Kogswell Porteur) with front load, briefly -- bike was loaned to me; thanks, Ryan -- and it was less "weighed down" in front by a similar load, as I suppose you'd expect it to be, but I didn't care for the unladen handling.

[Bob K.]

I’m not sure as to the actual weight that I’ve loaded up front in lowriders on my Sam for tours, but it’s been significant, and almost definitely 20ish+ pounds. The handling is slower, yes, but is there a bike that doesn’t handle more slowly with 20-25 pounds in front panniers? It would certainly be a bit of a liability in an emergency situation when I needed the bike to handle as nimbly as possible, but that’s par for the course in my experience.

For the record, I always balance out the load with 8-10 or so pounds in a Porcelain Rocket Mr. Fusion seat pack. And I, like Jeff, find that I get used to the altered handling rather quickly. I’ll send pictures of the setup a bit later if I get to it.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Patrick Moore]

Please do send a photo. 

I expect that even 10 lb in the rear would regain some of the "balance". 

I'm curious why you (all) favor front loads on a Rivendell frame, instead of rear loads. I have no touring experience (just plenty of grocery hauling experience), but my "instinct" is to load the rear.

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[tc]

Aesthetics, I'm guessing, at least when talking about baskets (and you weren't  - grin)

To my eye, a lone rear basket makes a bike look unbalanced....though of course the handling is improved by putting the load in the rear.  Baskets front and rear is better maybe?  Dunno.  Lone front basket just looks right.

I think there is also something to be said for being able to monitor what you're carrying to prevent -- or at least know about -- something going overboard.

Tom

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:34:58 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

...I'm curious why you (all) favor front loads on a Rivendell frame, instead of rear loads....

[Tim Gavin]

I agree with Bob K that every load on a bike will affect handling somehow.  Which compromise we settle for boils down to personal choice.

On my Riv Road, a modest (~15-20 lbs) rear load gives the bike a "tail wagging the dog" problem.  That same load in a front rando bag gives ponderous steering.  That same load on front low-riders makes the steering over-stable.  

That same load on rear low-riders may be have the least effect on handling (compared to the others), but I don't have a rear low-rider rack.  I could have bought one, but instead I bought a low-trail fork to improve the front load setup I already have.  

I wonder if the recent long-wheelbase Rivs have less "tail waggy" handling with a rear load?  They definitely have more pannier clearance (another annoyance on my Riv Road).

Based on my preferences, I'd load my Riv 60% front / 40% rear for a long tour.  But for day-to-day commuting and recreational riding, the front rando bag is very convenient and handles well (with a small load).

(non-Riv-specific segue)

I went on a s24o last year and decided to test my "bikepacking" bags on my plastic (CF) Foundry Auger.  That bike does have fender eyelets, but they're not intended for racks.  So, I used a Carradice Nelson rear bag (on my Brooks saddle), a Revelate Tangle half-frame bag (which stays on the bike), and a front Revelate Sweetroll harness.  I had about 10~15 lbs in the front harness (tent, sleeping bag, and pad) and about the same weight in the saddle bag.  I was surprised at how well the bike handled with that load, especially the front load!  The Revelate harness carries the load very close to the head tube, so handling was still pretty neutral.

[Jeff Lesperance]

I definitely don't favor front loads on a Riv. Besides touring, my regular commuting or day-trip load is comprised of a large saddlebag and maybe a small front handlebar bag - real small, nothing remotely needing a front rack or support of any kind. Recently I've begun experimenting with frame bags of different sorts, none of which involved heavy front loading. When the racks get installed, rear loading happens first and front loads are only added if needed. I've found it a bit odd, actually, that Riv has been at the forefront of promoting front rack n' basket usage considering the front-only-loading handling characteristics I've observed. I think, possibly, with the recent generations of Riv frames being designed with longer top tubes, and that design favoring swept-back/upright handlebars, that front-loaded handling is not terrible this way, as I observed with my Rosco v.2. 

Regardless - as enthusiasts, I know we can focus on microscopic elements of our bikes, be it aesthetics, functionality, or intersecting and colliding combinations of the two (or more factors), at the end of the day we find a way to enjoy riding our bikes, even if the handling might not be perfect. Honestly, prior to subscribing to Vintage Bicycle Quarterly, then Bicycle Quarterly, I never thought all that much, or even had awareness of trail or differing handling characteristics, and there were few bikes that I ever straddled that felt impossible or awful to ride wherever I took them. I've become far more critical of handling and wonder if I might fret a little less about the quality of my ride if I could return to (blissful) ignorance. 

[Patrick Moore]

This is a pretty good summary of much that gets discussed on this and other lists, but it's fun, nonetheless, to fret about details you now see, and which, before, you blissfully ignored.

Still, I do recall bikes that handled rear loads better than others, and those were not by any means the most likely candidates. I've mentioned the light, standard-diameter 531-tubed Motebecane; but also my first custom Riv, which had by the standards of the 2 later ones slightly too twitchy handling, unladen, at least with skinny tires. It also had shortish, 42 cm chainstays. But if my memories are correct, it handled a rear load, panniers and large saddlebags, better than the later customs, the Ram, and the Sam. Very odd. In fact, recalling in more detail its ride, I remember taking fastish S-bends with at least a noticeable rear load in Carradice panniers at speeds and with cornering precision that I don't think I've experienced from any of the other 4 Rivs similarly loaded. And yet, unladen, the 2 later customs, and even the Ram, handled better than that bike.

Patrick Moore, who has a lengthly list of little things to fret about, in ABQ, NM.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 9:21 AM, Jeff Lesperance <jeff.le...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Bob K.]

Patrick Moore requested a photo of my Sam, loaded up. This is probably 20-25 pounds up front distributed between the small bag in the basket and panniers. Mostly food, cooking stuff, and some spare clothing. The rear seat bag is stuffed to the gills with my tent, down jacket, rain gear, etc. 

Sidenote: this picture was taken at the start of an ill-fated solo trip in NC's Croatan National Forest. Follies included, but were not limited to, getting a super late start on day one and getting lost in the woods, forgetting my phone/gps battery charger in the car, and getting poured on all through day 2 before hopping in a dude's van and getting a ride back to my car. Lesson learned: Bike trips, especially ill-fated ones, are more fun in the company of others.

Anyway, the bike felt pretty balanced, although the handling took some getting used to. The Sam is such a capable steed. I keep trying to let go of it, and it keeps not happening! Also, I favor a front load for my tours after pushing a rear-loaded bike up an insane amount of steep hills during an off-road tour in the George Washington National Forest in VA. I had to push in a super awkward way because of the rear bags. Plus, I like how a front load looks, and the handling is always fine. I favor a front load on my Surly Troll with a Pass and Stow Rack, too. No poor handling to report there, either. 

Bob K. in Baltimore

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:34:58 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. Sorry your trip got rained on.

Now that I have a spare Carradice saddlebag, I might just try it on the back of the Rivendell to balance the (usually overflowing) loads in the front panniers.

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[Nick Payne]

My wife and I used to tour on our tandem with just a pair of extremely large home made front panniers. We would tour for up to a month at a time with that setup. I certainly preferred the handling with that setup compared to having the load split front and rear. You do need a rack that can take the load, though. We broke a couple of Blackburn lowrider racks before buying a Bruce Gordon, which is still going strong over 30 years later.

Here's a photo taken on a three week tour of Tasmania.

http://www.users.on.net/~njpayne/bikestuff/swtas.jpg

[Mark in Beacon]