What does a light set of metal fenders actually weigh?

[William]

I'm dwelling on some numbers and I'm curious what a lightish set of aluminum fenders weigh.  If any of you weighed yours before putting them on, I'd appreciate it.  Rounded to the nearest 100g would be fine.  I'm looking at narrowish 700C, like what you'd use to cover Jack Browns.  I don't know if it's 200g, 500g or 800g.  

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Besides aluminum fenders, I'm also curious about the weight of Berthoud stainless steel fenders, specifically the 650B versions.

 

It would be cool to have a wiki (online document that anybody can update) for parts favored by RBW/iBOB folks. In addition to weights, we could keep track of crankset/BB combos that work with various framesets. Can we do this with Google Groups or Documents?

David G, Madison WI

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:39 PM, David Yu Greenblatt
<david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Besides aluminum fenders, I'm also curious about the weight of Berthoud
> stainless steel fenders, specifically the 650B versions.
>
> It would be cool to have a wiki (online document that anybody can
> update) for parts favored by RBW/iBOB folks. In addition to weights, we
> could keep track of crankset/BB combos that work with various framesets. Can
> we do this with Google Groups or Documents?

You could easily do it with google documents. Just setup a spreadsheet
to store this info in and share it out for others to modify.

-sv

[Joe Broach]

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:39 PM, David Yu Greenblatt
> <david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It would be cool to have a wiki (online document that anybody can
>> update) for parts favored by RBW/iBOB folks. In addition to weights, we
>> could keep track of crankset/BB combos that work with various framesets. Can
>> we do this with Google Groups or Documents?
>

>On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Seth Vidal <skv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You could easily do it with google documents. Just setup a spreadsheet
> to store this info in and share it out for others to modify.

I've asked about this before. Is there a way to have "group-owned"
google docs, so that anyone subscribed to RBW could edit without
making the whole thing public (and, thus, open to spam or other
evils)?

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[Joe Broach]

500g +/- is in the ball park for aluminum or plastic w/ hardware.
Honjos are the thinnest and I assume the lightest of the bunch.

best,
joe broach
portland, or

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[Bertin753]

1 lb even for 559X50 Honjos.

Patrick Moore

Typed with two thumbs on my

iPhone

On Dec 20, 2011, at 1:21 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm dwelling on some numbers and I'm curious what a lightish set of aluminum fenders weigh.  If any of you weighed yours before putting them on, I'd appreciate it.  Rounded to the nearest 100g would be fine.  I'm looking at narrowish 700C, like what you'd use to cover Jack Browns.  I don't know if it's 200g, 500g or 800g.  

--

[Kelly Sleeper]

1.5 lbs for Berthold with those thick all leather mud flaps...

Kelly

[charlie]

Hmmm never bothered to check.....didn't seem important to me but maybe
it matters some. All I know is that if they weighed 3 pounds I'd still
use them.

[Philip Williamson]

As the maintainer of a public Google doc, I just gotta say, people...
(some people, not you)... people do stuff that just makes no sense.
It's not vandalism, but the effect is the same. I check the doc after
every use (google sends me an email, and I can see the current version
or just the changes), and quite often I have to fix things or remove
columns that have become worthless. A wiki would have more
accountability and reversionability, but I will advocate for what I
think is the best course. I think it works, it's working now, and we
don't have to change our behavior.

Just post posts. "I weighed my Honjo fenders, and they weighed X
grams, which is Y lbs." In five years when you forget, you can search
the group. If you think you'll search for "weight" instead of
"weighed," use that. Since ALL data is saved, you can judge by the
preponderance of the evidence,.Curious people aren't at the mercy of
last editor's accidents, innocence or idiocy. If there's bad data in a
conversation, there will be two people pointing it out. If it's a
topic for debate... it will get debated.

Post your information here. As an archival resource it's seamless,
it's part of the discussion, and it's archived.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

On Dec 20, 12:41 pm, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:39 PM, David Yu Greenblatt
>

[William]

Thanks for the info.  500g is a perfectly suitable placeholder for what I'm trying to do.  

[Ryan Watson]

A set of 35mm wide 700c Electra Ticino alloy fenders weighs 390g on my scale. 

Not quite wide enough for your Jack Browns.

This does not include the 4 fasteners to to attach the stays to the dropouts nor the bolt for the chainstay bridge. It does include fender-to-stay hardware and tangs for attaching to the front and rear brake bolts.

I'd guess a compete set wide enough for jack browns would be 500-ish.

FYI Berthoud stainless 650bx60mm fenders (just the actual fenders, no stays or other hardware) weigh 500g.

Ryan

On Dec 20, 2011, at 13:21, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm dwelling on some numbers and I'm curious what a lightish set of aluminum fenders weigh.  If any of you weighed yours before putting them on, I'd appreciate it.  Rounded to the nearest 100g would be fine.  I'm looking at narrowish 700C, like what you'd use to cover Jack Browns.  I don't know if it's 200g, 500g or 800g.  

--

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Thanks Ryan.

So is the rule of thumb that for a given size/width Honjo aluminum fenders are lighter than Gilles Berthoud stainless steel fenders? That would certainly make sense.
How about stays and fasteners--is there a difference in weight between Honjo and Berthoud?

Are Berthoud stays and fasteners compatible with Honjo fenders?

I am trying to decide what kind of fenders to mount on a custom 650B rando bike that is transitioning from the daydreaming to the planning stage.

I like the super long versions of the Honjo fenders. And some of the hammered and fluted versions look gorgeous on the right bike.

But I think I prefer the Berthoud stays & mounting hardware. You are less likely to catch a mounting bolt/daruma on the front fender with your toe.

And Berthoud steel fenders have proven to be quite durable in my experience.

 

David G, Madison WI

[René Sterental]

Owning both types, I prefer the steel Berthoud over the aluminum Honjo fenders. Like how the stays are bolted to the fenders on the Berthoud better as well.

I have the stays and bolts for both currently, but no scale to weigh them... I cannot seem to have been able to find Berthouds for 42mm 650B tires yet... Only Honjos.

Right now my Atlantis and Hunqapillar have steel Berthouds and my Homer has Honjos. I'm trying to fit 47mm Honjos on the Betty. Got the rear one in place, but am making adjustments to the daruma for the front to address the brake bolt for the front Silver brakes that doesn't allow the daruma to be centered. I also need to trim its length a bit so it doesn't rub the tire. Will need to do the same with the small stay darumas front and rear.

René

René

[Jan Heine]

When we tested fenders for Bicycle Quarterly (Vol. 2, No. 1), we found
for complete sets with stays and hardware:

- Honjo aluminum H40, 444 g.
- Berthoud stainless 700C: 598 g
- SKS narrow: 510 g
- Berthoud carbon: 248 g
- Salmon aluminum: 686 g

I prefer the Honjo aluminum fenders, as they are easy to shape for a
perfect fit. The Berthoud stainless fenders apparently have a tendency
to crack over time.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Kelly Sleeper]

Well after searching the internet and looking around I saw nothing to confirm your accusation that Berthoud fenders fail any sooner that anyone else's. (prone to crack) As a matter of fact I was able to find more negative information on the Honjo's. Either way both were minimal and in no way indicated a trend.

I also went to Vol 2 #1 and saw no actual testing of the Berthoud steel fender in that article under metal fenders. Not much comparison either.. but reviews got much better I noticed as BQ has aged. The fenders and aerodynamics on the page following was very interesting .. did you ever chase that further? I notice you sell Honjo fenders as well.

I have planet bike fenders on one bike, sks longboard on 2 bikes, and berhoud steel on two bikes. I don't have Berthoud because I believe them to be better than Honjo. It was only because the vender Peter White had a proven track record with me on light purchases so gave them a try. After finding them of high quality in my mind, I bought a second set. Not to mention I'm not to worried about weight.

It's my opinion that if weight is all that matters then in metal look to the Honjos.. as for quality and lasting .. doesn't matter .. sks, planet bike, honjo or berthoud will give you years of good service.

Regards,

Kelly

[William Pustow]

Jesus, Sleeper, relax. Find another list or stop drinking.
Bill
Louisville. Ky

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[Jan Heine]

On Dec 21, 5:17 pm, Kelly Sleeper <tkslee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also went to Vol 2 #1 and saw no actual testing of the Berthoud steel fender in that article under metal fenders.

Back then, the Berthoud fenders were sold under the "Cagnion" brand,
and you could only get them in France. We simply labeled them "French
stainless steel." They are the same fenders.

We have had several test bikes with cracked Berthoud fenders, but on
the other hand, I know riders who have ridden for years with Berthoud
fenders with no problems. It may be an installation issue (see below),
or occur during shipping, if the rear fender is pushed forward in the
box.

The longest-lasting fenders appear to be the aluminum fenders. I have
seen bikes with 100,000+ miles on the same set of fenders. The Honjo
fenders on my Alex Singer now have lasted for 6 years and at least
40,000 miles. (I only replaced the 1973 originals because I wanted to
use wider tires, not because they were failing.)

With Honjo fenders (and probably Berthoud), it is crucial that they
are shaped as desired before installation. Pulling the fenders into
position with the stays puts constant stresses on the fenders and will
lead to premature failure. (The same probably applies to plastic
fenders, but you cannot reshape them easily, which may be why they
only last a few years.)

[René Sterental]

How do you shape them without bending them? I've been unsuccessful.

Thanks,

René

[Chris]

There was an installation article on Bicycle Quarterly that talked about molding the fenders by hand into the same curvature as the wheels/tires.  That was by far the most helpful write-up on fender installation I've read.  Having heard of all sorts of bad stories on fender installation, I had a lot of doubts about installing metal fenders on my own.  Following the instruction by the BQ article, it was really no problem.  Thank you for writing such a great article!

[William]

Rene

There are two radii.  There's the LARGE radius around the wheel/tire diameter.  Then there's the SMALL radius around the tire cross section.  Shaping the fenders refers to adjusting the LARGE radius.  You adjust the LARGE radius by adjusting the SMALL radius.  If you want the LARGE radius to get smaller, you flatten out the SMALL radius (spread them width-wise).  If you want the LARGE radius to get larger, you squeeze the small radius skinnier.  Too bad if you want to reduce (or grow) both radii.  There's a conservation of mass thing going on there.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 08:37 -0800, René Sterental wrote:
> How do you shape them without bending them? I've been unsuccessful.

To tighten the curve you spread the sides of the fender open a bit, and
to make the curve more open you squeeze the sides of the fender
together. Trying to pull the curve in with the fender stays, the way
you would do with a plastic fender, is said to quickly lead to cracks.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 06:31 -0800, Jan Heine wrote:
> I know riders who have ridden for years with Berthoud
> fenders with no problems.

Number me among that list. I had mine on my Saluki for several years
and some 10,000 miles, then moved them over to my Kogswell P/R Porteur,
where they continue to be just fine.

I think the same issues apply regarding cracks with the Berthoud fenders
as with Honjos: you can't pull them into shape with the stays, the way
you would do with a SKS plastic fendere.

[René Sterental]

Thank you! Makes so much sense.

René

On Thursday, December 22, 2011, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rene
> There are two radii.  There's the LARGE radius around the wheel/tire diameter.  Then there's the SMALL radius around the tire cross section.  Shaping the fenders refers to adjusting the LARGE radius.  You adjust the LARGE radius by adjusting the SMALL radius.  If you want the LARGE radius to get smaller, you flatten out the SMALL radius (spread them width-wise).  If you want the LARGE radius to get larger, you squeeze the small radius skinnier.  Too bad if you want to reduce (or grow) both radii.  There's a conservation of mass thing going on there.  
>

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[Ryan Watson]

On Dec 21, 2011, at 12:33, David Yu Greenblatt <david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Ryan.
> So is the rule of thumb that for a given size/width Honjo aluminum fenders are lighter than Gilles Berthoud stainless steel fenders? That would certainly make sense.

Seems logical to me, though I don't have similar sized ones to compare without taking a bike apart.

> How about stays and fasteners--is there a difference in weight between Honjo and Berthoud?

I doubt there's any real difference. Maybe a little less with the Berthoud with the plastic fasteners.

> Are Berthoud stays and fasteners compatible with Honjo fenders?

They are interchangeable, but if the fenders are pre drilled for one type, you might need new holes and/or have unused holes leftover if you switch.
Aluminum foil tape is great for hole patching!

> I am trying to decide what kind of fenders to mount on a custom 650B rando bike that is transitioning from the daydreaming to the planning stage.

If you're running nothing bigger than a Hetre, the VO Zeppelins are by far my favorite. Cheaper than the others, too!

> I like the super long versions of the Honjo fenders. And some of the hammered and fluted versions look gorgeous on the right bike.
> But I think I prefer the Berthoud stays & mounting hardware.

I think you can buy them separately. I have Berthoud hardware on my Kogswell PR Black alloy fenders.

These Honjo fasteners are awesome:
http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-389/Honjo-Hardware-Deluxe-Allen/Detail

Here is a photo I took comparing some 650B fenders:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7556426@N06/3515429029/

Cheers,
Ryan

[bionnaki]

honjo with berthoud hardware.
best of both worlds.

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[David Yu Greenblatt]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Ryan.

I don't fully understand how the "Deluxe" Honjo hardware works. Does it replace the standard "R-clips" to attach the stays to the dropouts?

http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-389/Honjo-Hardware-Deluxe-Allen/Detail
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/honjo-r-clips-4mm-single-771.html

Or do you use it to attach the fenders to the stays?

Do you have a photo of the deluxe hardware in use on a bike?

 

I already have a set of VO 650Bx58mm fluted fenders, and yesterday I ordered a set of Honjo 650Bx50mm hammered fenders from VO (taking advantage of their sale and free shipping), so I will have at least two options for my future bike, which I think I am going to mostly use with 38mm Lierre or Pari-Moto tires.

 

The VO Zepellin fenders do look cool, though. Are you using two darumas per stay, and covering the pre-drilled hole with aluminum tape?

 

Thanks,

David G, Madison WI

[Jan Heine]

On Dec 23, 10:15 am, David Yu Greenblatt

<david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't fully understand how the "Deluxe" Honjo hardware works. Does it

> replace the standard "R-clips" to attach the stays to the dropouts?http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-389/Honjo-Hardware-Deluxe-A...http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/honjo-r-cl...

The "Deluxe" hardware is a copy of the hardware on 1980s Rene Herse
bikes. It replaces the eyebolts on the (unthreaded) dropout eyelets,
where the stays attach to the frame. Instead of clamping the stay
between eyebolt and cup, the stay is held in the eyebolt with a set
screw.

You can use the "Deluxe" hardware with threaded eyelets: You put a
little rubber (or leather) washer underneath the head of the eyebolt,
screw it in as far as you can, then back off a little until the hole
lines up with the stay. Insert the stay and tighten the set screw. I
did that on my new Herse, which did not have room for a nut on the
other side of the eyebolt.

Traditional French bikes did not use R clips. (Since the stay is off-
center with the clip, you have a greater tendency to loosen. In
practice, however, that rarely happens.)

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Thank you, Jan and Ryan! 

I will try the "Deluxe" method on my next fender installation.

- David G, Madison WI

[Ryan Watson]

On Dec 23, 2011, at 11:15, David Yu Greenblatt <david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the detailed reply, Ryan.

I don't fully understand how the "Deluxe" Honjo hardware works. Does it replace the standard "R-clips" to attach the stays to the dropouts?

http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-389/Honjo-Hardware-Deluxe-Allen/Detail
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/honjo-r-clips-4mm-single-771.html

Or do you use it to attach the fenders to the stays?

Do you have a photo of the deluxe hardware in use on a bike?

Here you go! 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7556426@N06/5391774863/in/photostream

 

I already have a set of VO 650Bx58mm fluted fenders, and yesterday I ordered a set of Honjo 650Bx50mm hammered fenders from VO (taking advantage of their sale and free shipping), so I will have at least two options for my future bike, which I think I am going to mostly use with 38mm Lierre or Pari-Moto tires.

 

The VO Zepellin fenders do look cool, though. Are you using two darumas per stay, and covering the pre-drilled hole with aluminum tape?

That's exactly what I did :-)

The latest batch of Zeppelins now use two bolts per stay.

[Phil Brown]

Depending on the alloy stainless teel work hardens pretty easily and
forming the fender in a press would work harden it.
Phil Brown